Establishing reptiles on my land.

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Of course..But maybe
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Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 11th, 2017, 8:25 pm

Hello everyone.

I just acquired a bit of acreage in palm beach county. While I was talking to my wife about landscaping she brought up how nice it would be to have those pretty chameleons I take pictures of in Homestead. At first I was against it but I after some thought I can't help to say why not? These lizards are already established here..I can make a my own garden of nonnative eden of tropical fruit trees and reptiles from around the state.

I am thinking chameleons, calotes, pectinata, jeweled curly tails, day geckos and a few more small species. There are already basilisks and iguanas on the property.

I am far from the Everglades and its already terribly altered land in a city with half of my property is mixed slash pine with Australian pine already a huge invasive here.

I want to know how everyone here feels about this.

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krisbell
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by krisbell » January 12th, 2017, 6:55 am

Most of the limited evidence suggests that chams do not have a major negative net impact on Florida's ecosystems and I can certainly understand your desire to have such incredible creatures on your property, but of course from an ecological/conservation/scientific perspective this is not the right way to proceed. I think you know this already!

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by dwakefield » January 12th, 2017, 7:51 am

I agree with Kris. If you want chameleons in your yard, build a large screened in enclosure for them to prevent them escaping. If you want wild reptiles in your yard, do what you can to encourage native species to take up residence. There are some still around, even in urban areas.

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lateralis
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by lateralis » January 12th, 2017, 10:57 am

Trolling are we lol...

Seriously though, a more noble pursuit would be to KILL all nonnatives on your property and re-establish native wildlife and vegetation to the maximum extent practical...The Miccosukee, Seminole, and Calusa used native fruit trees and other plants in their gardens and so can ewe.

Were I fortunate enough to own acreage the last thing I would do is promote non-natives, its right behind habitat loss in terms of how it negatively affects native species....

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 12th, 2017, 11:36 am

Hi lateralis....I am not trolling at all this is a serious thought that I have over if it matters that a already disturbed piece of land that will never become natural or native. if I I actually have been a member here since 2010 and made the burner account to ask this controversial/ethical question. That's why my username is a moral joke from Louie ck.

I am full on with collecting native trees, shrubs, and vines and have already started collecting multiple pawpaw, elderberry, and obscure herbs and cacti that can legally collect. But lets face it pond apple is not nearly as tasty as rollinia, sugar apples and mangos.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by craigb » January 12th, 2017, 12:51 pm

I am on board with lateralis. I went to local oil fields in Long Beach, Ca and caught a few Sceloporus and Elgaria and released them in my yard. I have tons of wild crickets. I keep desert tortoises in pens with native plants for them to eat. I have many native species of birds and mammals that come to my backyard.

I really dislike the non native populations of conures and parrots that inhabit my city. I almost celebrate when a raptor takes one.

I could go on with about 100 invasive species in Los Angeles and Orange counties, as I am sure you could in Florida.

But like lateralis said, do you want to make your environment worst or better?

I really think it is naive to say that a piece of land will "never" be back to it's native state. If it is my land I would just toss the non natives out and plant natives. I have a nature center near me that was a golf course more than 10 years ago. It is a very cool place to see native plants and animals that have come back.

To quote Jurassic Park: "Nature finds a way"...... I add eventually.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by BillMcGighan » January 12th, 2017, 1:27 pm

Honestly, FOLKS, I would normally agree with all parties above100% and say don't encourage non-natives,

******* but *******

after living in Coral Springs for 4 years, I have to give way to OP's ideas in THAT LOCATION. I'm afraid those non-native cows got out of the pasture long, long ago inside the humanity belt of southeast Florida.

Except for a couple bass and saltwater fish, many black racers, and a DOR Indigo, all lower vertebrates (and a several higher) that I encountered, were non-native.

Not long after living there, the environmental horror shock of the area wore off. My wife and I would get incredulously tickled and start laughing to ourselves with every plant, herp, fish, and sometimes bird that we’d find. They were almost always non-native and often invasive.


Just as an example, one typical fishing day along a canal started at the parking lot seeing an African Grey Parrot on the wires overhead, then catching a host of Oscars, Mayan Cyclids, Snakeheads, before we caught bass, but then finished the day with Peacock bass. All this intermingled with ALL lizards observed being Brown Anoles, Curley Tails, an Agama, and a few Basilisks. Drove home, pulled into my garage to watch several African House Geckos scurry into the eves of the house, avoiding the Cuban Tree Frogs!

You almost have to experience the magnitude of invasion in Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties to believe it!!!

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 12th, 2017, 1:50 pm

On the thought of making the environment worse or better..Don't animals have the ability to travel to islands by rafting? Haven't birds bin know to unknowingly stock bodies of water with fish?...

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lateralis
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by lateralis » January 12th, 2017, 10:57 pm

Hi lateralis....I am not trolling at all this is a serious thought that I have over if it matters that a already disturbed piece of land that will never become natural or native. if I I actually have been a member here since 2010 and made the burner account to ask this controversial/ethical question. That's why my username is a moral joke from Louie ck.

I am full on with collecting native trees, shrubs, and vines and have already started collecting multiple pawpaw, elderberry, and obscure herbs and cacti that can legally collect. But lets face it pond apple is not nearly as tasty as rollinia, sugar apples and mangos.
I gotcha, well to each is own and considering the location, I would agree with most of what has been said thus far since I am from the HS/Keys area and well acquainted with the invasive species boom of SoFL. I remember male iguanas up to 6ft in length falling into the school yard in Coral Gables in the late 60's lol.
My uncle re-established the Tropical hardwood hammock on his property with gumbo-limbo, paradise tree , pigeon-plum, strangler fig, and willow-bustic - he tossed in some Honduran Mahogany, and Kapok trees as well, some of which are over 100' in height. He has non native species but he says that he has seen an increase in natives as vegetation restoration efforts mature. Pond apples are definitely an acquired taste, pawpaw is much better.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by stlouisdude » January 12th, 2017, 11:40 pm

My first question is whether there are any laws that would prevent you from capturing some chameleons and moving them onto your land, my second question is whether it would work, and my third question would be should it be done. I have answers to none of those things. In regards to the whole native species thing -- I think this whole revert the land to the way it was in 1400 except with cars, roads, factories, new housing developments every 5 seconds, and millions of people is a little silly and pretends that such a thing is even remotely possible while giving up none of our modern conveniences.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 13th, 2017, 3:00 pm

It would definitely work...I mean they are established north and south of me. North Africa and the Arabian peninsula line up with Florida pretty closely. So technically reptiles from any of those regions can make it.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by stlouisdude » January 13th, 2017, 5:06 pm

Can and will establish two different things. When you're talking about a handful of animals a single predator like a neighborhood cat or raccoon could make the difference between success and failure, and the reptiles could simply wander off. I am not convinced one way nor another whether it will succeed .

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reptologist
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by reptologist » January 13th, 2017, 5:53 pm

Interesting topic and I would like to add a condition to see if anyone would change their mind. What if you lived in a residential area much farther like in the north east US. You have lived in this location for 30+ years and have never seen a lizard. Would you still be opposed to releasing a breed of non-native lizard that would survive in this particular area?

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by stlouisdude » January 14th, 2017, 5:29 pm

I think if someone lives in the North and they want to see lizards, they should build an outdoor cage and bring them in for the winter, definitely not release anything.

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by chris_mcmartin » January 14th, 2017, 5:35 pm

reptologist wrote:Interesting topic and I would like to add a condition to see if anyone would change their mind. What if you lived in a residential area much farther like in the north east US. You have lived in this location for 30+ years and have never seen a lizard. Would you still be opposed to releasing a breed of non-native lizard that would survive in this particular area?
Yes, I would oppose it. That's how we now have Podarcis in New York, and are Lacerta viridis still there as well?

The problem I see is that just because you don't see any native lizards in a location doesn't mean the introduction of non-natives won't displace other native wildlife.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Jimi » January 15th, 2017, 8:48 am

An amusing set of reactions here. I'm with Bill. Alternatively the OP & his missus could build, hardscape, and landscape to their hearts' content, and just wait and see what shows up (and goes away). An insane alternative would be to go to war with the non-native (wild, feral, and domestic) vertebrates and try to create some kind of island of native herps, which will disappear as soon as the property's land-use is intensified. Which will happen, unless the ocean gets it first.
I'm afraid those non-native cows got out of the pasture long, long ago inside the humanity belt of southeast Florida.
Uh huh. The geographic and social context is what matters here. It's a morass of non-native everything, in a dystopian manufactured "natural environment".

Everyone wants to make their environment better. "Their" is not the same thing as "the", however, and "better" is in the eye of the beholder. That's the rub. Everybody wants their little selfish thing. The thing the OP wants is - seriously - not a big deal. It's, like, nothing, in the place he's talking about.
What if you lived in a residential area much farther like in the north east US. You have lived in this location for 30+ years and have never seen a lizard. Would you still be opposed to releasing a breed of non-native lizard that would survive in this particular area?
Complete change of topic and not useful to the OP.

Just my $.02.

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reptologist
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by reptologist » January 15th, 2017, 11:02 am

chris_mcmartin wrote:
reptologist wrote:Interesting topic and I would like to add a condition to see if anyone would change their mind. What if you lived in a residential area much farther like in the north east US. You have lived in this location for 30+ years and have never seen a lizard. Would you still be opposed to releasing a breed of non-native lizard that would survive in this particular area?
Yes, I would oppose it. That's how we now have Podarcis in New York, and are Lacerta viridis still there as well?

The problem I see is that just because you don't see any native lizards in a location doesn't mean the introduction of non-natives won't displace other native wildlife.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. You described exactly what I was talking about with the reference to
P. sicula. There is an established colony of those within a 15 minute drive from me that apparently has been there since the mid eighties.

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reptologist
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by reptologist » January 15th, 2017, 11:05 am

What if you lived in a residential area much farther like in the north east US. You have lived in this location for 30+ years and have never seen a lizard. Would you still be opposed to releasing a breed of non-native lizard that would survive in this particular area?
Complete change of topic and not useful to the OP.

Just my $.02.[/quote]
You could have just said no.
My $.02.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 15th, 2017, 12:22 pm

reptologist wrote:
chris_mcmartin wrote:
reptologist wrote:Interesting topic and I would like to add a condition to see if anyone would change their mind. What if you lived in a residential area much farther like in the north east US. You have lived in this location for 30+ years and have never seen a lizard. Would you still be opposed to releasing a breed of non-native lizard that would survive in this particular area?
Yes, I would oppose it. That's how we now have Podarcis in New York, and are Lacerta viridis still there as well?

The problem I see is that just because you don't see any native lizards in a location doesn't mean the introduction of non-natives won't displace other native wildlife.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. You described exactly what I was talking about with the reference to
P. sicula. There is an established colony of those within a 15 minute drive from me that apparently has been there since the mid eighties.
Have those sicula spread further??

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by chris_mcmartin » January 15th, 2017, 7:18 pm

This article about the lizards on Long Island suggests the limited access to the mainland is a barrier to range expansion in this case. There is also a population in New Jersey which may not face such barriers.

I participated a couple of seasons in an unofficial long-term mark/recapture study on the population in Topeka, Kansas about five years ago. Anecdotally I've been told the Podarcis in this population don't spread because once they reached the outskirts of the city the native Great Plains Skinks (Plestiodon obsoletus) devour them.

Though the biologist in the first article is quoted as stating the introduced lizards don't harm anything, I think he may be overconfident in that assessment...I'm not sure he can verify that the twenty-plus types of invertebrates eaten by the introduced lizards don't include vulnerable species, or their appetites haven't significantly reduced local populations of certain species.

If we herp lovers can get upset over feral cats eating birds, reptiles, and amphibians, why should we inflict the same misery on entomologists by intentionally releasing and encouraging feral lizards?

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WSTREPS
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by WSTREPS » January 15th, 2017, 9:03 pm

Hello everyone.

I just acquired a bit of acreage in palm beach county. While I was talking to my wife about landscaping she brought up how nice it would be to have those pretty chameleons I take pictures of in Homestead. At first I was against it but I after some thought I can't help to say why not? These lizards are already established here..I can make a my own garden of nonnative eden of tropical fruit trees and reptiles from around the state.

I am thinking chameleons, calotes, pectinata, jeweled curly tails, day geckos and a few more small species. There are already basilisks and iguanas on the property.

I am far from the Everglades and its already terribly altered land in a city with half of my property is mixed slash pine with Australian pine already a huge invasive here.

I want to know how everyone here feels about this.
There is nothing wrong with what you would like. The grandstanding "Kill all invasive " crowd are basically delusional (mislead) about the actual impact's of introduced non native reptiles in the US. While posturing and preaching they simply ignore the realties of the world. Seriously, people are bitching because they see a parrot or a lizard in a city. They should be happy if anything besides a cockroach can live there. The property you purchased is already completely altered there can be no going back.

The Everglades or South Florida for that matter. Is one of the most altered and most polluted ecosystem's in the world. Its arguably home to more introduced and invasive specie's then any place on earth. The world changes and people are part of that change and it will keep on changing but it will never change back. There are no invasive non native reptile species in North America. The word invasive is misused and abused by both amateurs and professionals who don't understand the meaning as it applies to flora and fauna. Do you know if the land that boarders yours has any of the species your interested in? You could possibly get some chameleons going if you have suitable foliage. The same for day geckos (banana trees are good for the DG's). Things like pectinate and jeweled curly tails will prefer higher rocky spots that don't flood during the wet. Its not that easy to establish reptiles. But if want to do it South Fl is the place.

Ernie Eison

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 16th, 2017, 7:19 am

Thanks Ernie I may not always agree with you but you are very passionate about what you believe in. I also think we are apart of the natural process.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Jimi » January 16th, 2017, 12:11 pm

Quote:
What if you lived in a residential area much farther like in the north east US. You have lived in this location for 30+ years and have never seen a lizard. Would you still be opposed to releasing a breed of non-native lizard that would survive in this particular area?


Complete change of topic and not useful to the OP.
You could have just said no.
My $.02.
Actually, I would have had to say "yes" - I would be opposed to releasing non-native lizards there. And pretty much anywhere. Pretty much any species, anywhere. But not the species he's mentioning, within "the humanity belt" of SE FL. Why not? Because they're already established up and down the coast there, and they are basically human commensals (they don't "invade the wilderness"). They are eating and feeding a bunch of other mostly human commensals or truly invasive or injurious species, and living on & occupying human structures, landscaping, orchards, and debris, so I don't think the proposed action is going to do any ecological, economic, or human-health harm.

And, importantly, this is what pursuing happiness looks like to this guy and his wife. If one's pursuit of happiness can be done without harming nature or people, well then, I say get after it. If an opponent can't provide a credible "why not" to someone's pursuit of happiness, then they ought to shut up and get out of the way. Credible is not a bunch of worst-case scenario hand-waving, or some trumped-up logical fallacies ("slippery slope", "mgt by anecdote", etc etc), it's a real risk assessment examining both the likelihood and the consequences of an action. That is my opinion as a private citizen, as a wildlife stakeholder. Living in a society requires both responsibility for self and others, and tolerance - respectful acceptance, even - for self and others. A few things - assault, intimidation, fraud, etc - are beyond the pale, but with most things either "it depends" or "that's fine, just fine". So here, with this thing, I'm saying "this one, it depends, but AFAIC it's OK here".

Hopefully with this clarification you can now see why I called it a "complete change of topic and not useful to the OP". It isn't remotely comparable, because the circumstances are completely different. Trying to suggest they are comparable invites "the villagers with pitchforks" (the whole damn whacko internet) to just pile on and attack the OP. That, to me, is beyond the pale. I think the OP is being earnest, that he isn't trolling. But even if he is "just a troll", I'm happy to express here the ability - no, the imperative - to discern, to apply some nuance to what is a complicated ecological and social situation.

cheers

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lateralis
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by lateralis » January 16th, 2017, 1:15 pm

change back. There are no invasive non native reptile species in North America
I see where Carl Hiaasen gets his material, you just can't make this chyt up! :thumb:

I guess these are natives or non-invasive?
African clawed frog
Bullfrog
Burmese pythons
Nerodia sipedon
Iguana
Basilisk
Niloticus
What about rats n pigs? Native or no?
Birds ? Lots
Let's talk about AIS, that's aquatic invasive species, but I bet all of the ones present in Florida are native too :crazyeyes:

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reptologist
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by reptologist » January 16th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Have those sicula spread further??[/quote]
I'm really not qualified to answer that. The area in question is partially public/commercial land and partially private residential land. I have only been able to access the former. From my own observations, they seem to set up small territories and don't roam far from there.

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reptologist
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by reptologist » January 16th, 2017, 1:18 pm

Jimi wrote:
Quote:



Complete change of topic and not useful to the OP.
You could have just said no.
My $.02.
Actually, I would have had to say "yes" - I would be opposed to releasing non-native lizards there. And pretty much anywhere. Pretty much any species, anywhere. But not the species he's mentioning, within "the humanity belt" of SE FL. Why not? Because they're already established up and down the coast there, and they are basically human commensals (they don't "invade the wilderness"). They are eating and feeding a bunch of other mostly human commensals or truly invasive or injurious species, and living on & occupying human structures, landscaping, orchards, and debris, so I don't think the proposed action is going to do any ecological, economic, or human-health harm.

And, importantly, this is what pursuing happiness looks like to this guy and his wife. If one's pursuit of happiness can be done without harming nature or people, well then, I say get after it. If an opponent can't provide a credible "why not" to someone's pursuit of happiness, then they ought to shut up and get out of the way. Credible is not a bunch of worst-case scenario hand-waving, or some trumped-up logical fallacies ("slippery slope", "mgt by anecdote", etc etc), it's a real risk assessment examining both the likelihood and the consequences of an action. That is my opinion as a private citizen, as a wildlife stakeholder. Living in a society requires both responsibility for self and others, and tolerance - respectful acceptance, even - for self and others. A few things - assault, intimidation, fraud, etc - are beyond the pale, but with most things either "it depends" or "that's fine, just fine". So here, with this thing, I'm saying "this one, it depends, but AFAIC it's OK here".

Hopefully with this clarification you can now see why I called it a "complete change of topic and not useful to the OP". It isn't remotely comparable, because the circumstances are completely different. Trying to suggest they are comparable invites "the villagers with pitchforks" (the whole damn whacko internet) to just pile on and attack the OP. That, to me, is beyond the pale. I think the OP is being earnest, that he isn't trolling. But even if he is "just a troll", I'm happy to express here the ability - no, the imperative - to discern, to apply some nuance to what is a complicated ecological and social situation.

cheers
Thanks for answering.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 16th, 2017, 1:48 pm

This is exactly what I wanted. A good discussion with many perspectives from all over. Thanks everyone.

I have decided to not allow them out of a sheet metal fenced in area where my grove is going to be established. That way they are not caged in to the point my wife does not like to see. Yet they are not technically out.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by WSTREPS » January 17th, 2017, 9:23 am

change back. There are no invasive non native reptile species in North America


I see where Carl Hiaasen gets his material, you just can't make this chyt up!

I guess these are natives or non-invasive?
African clawed frog
Bullfrog
Burmese pythons
Nerodia sipedon
Iguana
Basilisk
Niloticus
What about rats n pigs? Native or no?
Birds ? Lots
Let's talk about AIS, that's aquatic invasive species, but I bet all of the ones present in Florida are native too
Birds, frogs, rats and pigs, fish etc. Are not reptiles. Water snakes are native. None of the other reptiles listed have been demonstrated to be "invasive" by proper definition. They can be correctly identified as an “exotic species,” or an “established exotic,” a “non-native species,” or an “alien species.” They are not by legal definition an invasive species. The buzz word invasive is used to create heighten drama and imply threat. Its much more menacing to call something invasive then it is to call it introduced.

Ernie Eison

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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Bryan Hamilton » January 17th, 2017, 9:44 am

Invasive species is a legal term
"Invasive species" means an alien species whose introduction does or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health."
When you say introduced, the legal synonym is alien
"Alien species" means, with respect to a particular ecosystem, any species, including its seeds, eggs, spores, or other biological material capable of propagating that species, that is not native to that ecosystem.
https://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/law ... rder.shtml

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WSTREPS
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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by WSTREPS » January 17th, 2017, 10:57 am

"Invasive species" means an alien species whose introduction does or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health."
I posted that years ago. To date no introduced exotic reptile (including Burmese pythons) has been demonstrably shown to cause harm or be likely to cause harm to humans, the environment or agriculture. Thus not invasive. Not all alien species are invasive. The species I listed are alien but not invasive. The use of the word alien does not automatically correlate to the word invasive.

Introduced, alien, exotic, non-indigenous, or non-native are all interchangeable ways of saying a reptile is established somewhere other then its natural range. None of these terms directly categorize a species as being invasive.


Ernie Eison

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by craigb » January 17th, 2017, 11:56 am

In my response I listed my thoughts.
After more thought, I realized that I was speaking about animals (non natives) abandoned in areas without thought or consideration.

Your plan may be no more "invasive" than a person putting in a Koi pond instead keeping native fish.

craigb

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by lateralis » January 17th, 2017, 1:32 pm

I love how people cut and paste from the Internet :lol: I guess it's easier than reading the subject matter.

So are quagga mussels invasive, introduced or alien ? This is an easy one.

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Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Jimi » January 17th, 2017, 4:42 pm

Interesting nobody mentioned RES as a heinously invasive - yes, invasive - species on about 5 continents. Including this one.
I have decided to not allow them out of a sheet metal fenced in area where my grove is going to be established. That way they are not caged in to the point my wife does not like to see. Yet they are not technically out.
You ever been through a hurricane? Sheet metal catches the wind like nobody's business. OTOH it's very good at keeping hogs and armadillos out, which you will probably want to do. You can back it up (on the exterior) with welded wire ("hog wire") - that'll help the sheets stay in place next time it comes on to blow. Unless it blows unholy. But lost sheet metal - and loose lizards - will be the least of your worries in that case...

Good luck man. Sounds fun. How much ground you got? Are you far enough inland that it'll freeze fairly regularly?

Of course..But maybe
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Joined: January 6th, 2017, 7:49 am

Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Of course..But maybe » January 17th, 2017, 6:28 pm

Jimi wrote:Interesting nobody mentioned RES as a heinously invasive - yes, invasive - species on about 5 continents. Including this one.
I have decided to not allow them out of a sheet metal fenced in area where my grove is going to be established. That way they are not caged in to the point my wife does not like to see. Yet they are not technically out.
You ever been through a hurricane? Sheet metal catches the wind like nobody's business. OTOH it's very good at keeping hogs and armadillos out, which you will probably want to do. You can back it up (on the exterior) with welded wire ("hog wire") - that'll help the sheets stay in place next time it comes on to blow. Unless it blows unholy. But lost sheet metal - and loose lizards - will be the least of your worries in that case...

Good luck man. Sounds fun. How much ground you got? Are you far enough inland that it'll freeze fairly regularly?
Yes I have been through a lot of hurricanes, been a SFL resident my entire life. But yes loose lizards that are already established are not even a concern by then. It's not like raptors have escaped the paddock!

The roofing panels are going to be buried longways halfway with 2x4 supporting the unions. Ten acres on the west side of I95. It definitely could freeze but not yearly. Veileds can definitely handle the cold if they can live in Labelle seriously cold winters there.

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Kelly Mc
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Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Establishing reptiles on my land.

Post by Kelly Mc » January 18th, 2017, 5:36 pm

Hey Guys.. Does any one else think that adding a water feature would be a good thing? Attraction for more insect life, many drawn at a distance to its promising reflective, sort of create that opulence of rich little world in a big world kind of thing?

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