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 Post subject: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 8:13 am 

Joined: August 30th, 2017, 7:55 am
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Greetings Herp lovers. The Committee to Save Nevada's Reptiles is seeking your help.

Nevada is currently the only Western state to allow commercial collection of reptiles, and it results in the loss of an average of 15,000 lizards and snakes per year from our public lands. The vast majority of these reptiles are sold to Asia and Europe on the foreign pet market. Data from Nevada Department Of Wildlife (NDOW) shows that collectors are having increasing difficulty finding reptiles, implying that population numbers have gone down. NDOW’s presentation on the topic, with maps and statistics, is here: http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/ndowo ... tation.pdf

The Nevada Board of Wildlife Commissioners, who sets wildlife policy in the state, is taking the topic up at a public meeting on September 23rd in Las Vegas. NDOW has been proactive on this topic, as they have concerns about its effect on reptile populations, and is encouraging the Commission to take action. We are going to be pushing the Commission to ban the practice altogether.

Having support for the ban from herpetologists could be the decisive factor in achieving this significant conservation victory for reptiles in Nevada. We are requesting herpetologists to sign on to the below letter. Please email [email protected] with your name, degree, and affiliation if applicable.

We appreciate your support.

LETTER:
To the Nevada Board of Wildlife Commissioners:

We, the undersigned scientists – with collective expertise in conservation biology, ecology, population dynamics, wildlife management, and for many of us herpetology—urge the Nevada Board of Wildlife Commissioners to institute a permanent ban on the commercial collection of reptiles.
Nevada has one of the most significant levels of herpetological biodiversity in the western United States. These snakes and lizards are an important part of the desert food web, consuming insects and other invertebrates while acting as prey for mid- to upper-level predators. They are an integral part of Nevada’s vibrant desert ecosystems.

Globally, herpetofauna face numerous stressors including climate change, overexploitation, and habitat loss, which is driving localized extinctions and may be foretelling of broader declines. Research also shows that there are environmental impacts associated with the practice of commercial collecting itself, degrading habitat for the remaining animals.

NDOW has presented compelling data that collection numbers have been very significant over the past 30 years—resulting in the loss of nearly half a million reptiles from Nevada’s public lands. These data also indicate that reptile density may be going down in places that have been heavily collected, and as a result the impacts from collecting are spreading to previous unexploited areas.

Nevada is the only state in the Western U.S. to permit this practice, making it an outlier in managing its wildlife resources. In light of the unique reptile community in the state, the indicators that commercial collection may be impacting population levels, and the broader context of threats to reptiles, we encourage the Nevada Board of Wildlife Commissioners to ban the practice of commercial collection of reptiles.
Sincerely,


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 9:47 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:14 pm
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To be credible, you need to identify yourself. And if you are affiliated with an organization such as the Center for Biological Diversity, Natural Heritage, etc., that information should be known as well. If you choose not to divulge such information, that would speak for itself.


Richard F. Hoyer


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 4:32 pm 
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Quote:
To be credible, you need to identify yourself. And if you are affiliated with an organization such as the Center for Biological Diversity, Natural Heritage, etc., that information should be known as well. If you choose not to divulge such information, that would speak for itself.



All things considered, that isnt necessarily true or fair to say, and the comment has a hint of straw man to it.

Perceived intolerance and even overt hostility could understandably cause an individual to be precautionary with personal information. Especially in these cyber times. Unstable people have been known cause havoc to other people's lives and workplaces. Wise people of good standing can be cautious, and not because they are 'hiding'.


There are many things in this issue that speak for itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 4:45 pm 
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How can a herpetologist support an outright ban on commercial collection? There is insufficient information given in both this post and either of the two NDOW-related PowerPoint presentations available to cause the pendulum to swing all the way from "no bag limits for commercial collectors" to a complete ban.

Now, if you want to form a citizen-science group to remove unlabeled pitfall traps, I could get behind that.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 5:22 pm 
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This is an open forum, and its been posted for herpetologists to support if they choose to.

In the privacy of their own thoughts on the matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 6:10 pm 
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The idea behind signing a petition is make it publicly known one's support for the position stated.

As it stands now, an unknown entity with a GMail account and a brand-new FHF account is attempting to gather (digital) signatures to support their position to move from one extreme (unlimited commercial collecting) to another (complete ban).

Can the original poster provide more information on their affiliation? Perhaps a current and periodically updated list of signatories to the petition, as is customary with such instruments?


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 6:37 pm 
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Yes but ones own personal thought on the matter is the operative in signing. Apart from what happens or is ignored on certain threads here

There are no rules here that stipulate a command of dispersing ones own information in such a post.

Its quite clear by reading threads about this topic and others like it why someone would simply want to present it without being strung up and harangued.

Sometimes nature just takes its ninja course.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 7:29 pm 
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Kelly, Chris, Richard and Save Nevada:

I am also curious about who is/are Save Nevada, but the link that was provided regarding the history of Nevada commercial take was neutral and informative.

From the linked data it is apparent that a half dozen species are targeted for commercial take. From the provided maps, and based on known distributions of target species, those species are safe in vast parts of southern Nevada, such as Nellis and the Desert NWR. The logical solution, from the perspective of a state wildlife agency, would be to establish more specific regulations (geographical- or counted-related) for target species. For example, commercial take of Whiptails or Ground Snakes might be impertinent, as opposed to that of Chuckwallas.

From the perspective of a state herpetologist, directed toward Save Nevada: When a state game commission solicits information to a proposed rule change, the commissioners and administrators of that state have already obtained a sufficient body of data wherewith to make their decision (i.e., continue or prohibit commercial take). Out-of-state, form letters that present generalities are taken for what they are, and are ignored: they present no informative data and are coming from non-constituents. So, anyone who forwards the "Save Nevada" letter to Nevada officials can be assured that it will be deleted with zero result.

The original post should be studied by Nevada biologists, although I am certain that informed individuals are already aware of their State's issue. I know that Richard is well-experienced with this matter as it pertains to Oregon amphibians and reptiles. So, to reiterate, the Nevada authorities are probably more informed about the specifics of this issue, and will act with no regard to input from out-of-state individuals with somnabulant statements like "Globally, herpetofauna face numerous stressors including climate change, overexploitation, and habitat loss, which is driving localized extinctions and may be foretelling of broader declines. Research also shows that there are...[snooze alert]."

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 8:17 pm 
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Snooze alert?

There is an unbalanced visibility of opinions here, with a handful of posters - the same ones - promoting the superficial impression of a dominance of view.

You most clearly know more than I do about the politics of these affairs, yet I believe I may know something more about the psychology of interactions here than you might. Maybe not. But its possible.

There are people here - many - who do not post their viewpoints because of social mechanism inherent to message board communication.

It is alive and kicking sickly here in a few select topics so even if your statements have merit, the visibility alone of another view is of value in itself.

Many topics are ignored out of fear because of the illusion of a majority that only consists in reality of a handful of people.

When a person thinks they know something they should try to look at it another way.

You speak with confidence about the workings of the government and what they think.

The petition you hold in dubious worth is aimed at herpetologists. Perhaps you are one. If so or if not it is up to those guys if one of them or more signs it.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 8:57 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:14 pm
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J.B.
If you haven't done so, and if you can put up with more excessive verbiage from that Orygun fellow, this topic began with a link posted by Bryan Hamilton on August 30th on the News forum (“State pushes to tighten wild reptile collection rules-Nevada”)

In a recent post, I was informed by a former DNOW biologist, Steve S., that at this late date, and not being a Nevada resident, any comments I might have prepared for the Nevada commissions was more than likely a waste of time. So I scrapped the idea for a day or so. But then today, since I had already gone to the trouble of developing a draft, this morning I did some revising and sent it anyway. Even though it was likely a wasted effort, it makes me ‘feel better’ and at least I made an honest effort.

Near the bottom of page two of that thread, I basically repeated the same scenario that I addressed years ago on the former national and Arizona PARC web sites, the Kingsnake forum, and about two times on these Fieldherp forums. Instead of recreational or incidental collecting of herps, the current issue is the commercial collecting of reptiles in Nevada.

Hope all is going well in Louisiana these days.

Richard F. Hoyer


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 8:58 pm 
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I'm surprised and disappointed if/that state wildlife commissions disregard nonresidents' opinions as non-stakeholders, considering the many-times-higher license fees those "non-stakeholders" pay for the privilege of wishing to do the same things said states' residents do; to wit: Nevada Resident Hunting License $33; Non-Resident Hunting License $142. (from NDOW's web site)

It is my understanding that state wildlife commissions are elected/appointed officials and are not bound by scientific principles (in setting restrictions/bag limits or, apparently, user fees). Practically speaking, as with many other environmental issues, money has a louder voice than science. It's one of the reasons (if not the only one) Texas still allows gassing rattlesnake burrows, despite its violation of already-existing laws...there is a powerful lobby ensuring it continues and despite us herpers trying to lobby in support of banning the use of gasoline, we simply can't match the opposing viewpoint financially. But I digress...


I'm not opposed to regulations which make sense. I support bag limits based on sound management principles. I'm not a commercial collector and don't condone limitless collecting. But the timing and manner of how a complete ban is being considered and promoted in Nevada is cause for concern, at least to me.


P.S. Kelly--Jeff is the Louisiana State Herpetologist. ;) :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 9:12 pm 
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Chris, Where did I say he wasnt?? " ;) "


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 9:18 pm 
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Kelly Mc wrote:

The petition you hold in dubious worth is aimed at herpetologists. Perhaps you are one. If so or if not it is up to those guys if one of them or more signs it.



Seems like a reasonable comment to me. For someone who hadnt ever known he was. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 16th, 2017, 9:21 pm 
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Here's to hoping the commercial collecting of Nevada's native reptile fauna is banned :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 10:13 am 

Joined: July 9th, 2010, 4:39 pm
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I have no idea who or what the “Committee to Save Nevada’s Reptiles” is and I am not impressed by any argument suggesting that the species targeted in Nevada for commercial collection face an existential threat. All of the concerned species are well represented on extensive tracts of land either closed to public access or closed to collecting at any level and any pitch to “save Nevada’s reptiles” through banning commercial collection is disingenuous.

Even so, I intend to go before the Board of Wildlife Commissioners in Nevada next week to argue for an end to the commercial collection of reptiles. Full disclosure: I am a friend of Jason Jones and a volunteer for NDOW in herp-related projects under his direction. I will add that I haven’t had nearly as much involvement in pursuit of this issue as has Steve and don’t have anything to add to his post in the News thread regarding its recent history.

I oppose collection and sale of reptiles as it is being carried out in Nevada for a couple of reasons, and the one that offers me the most guidance is the one I’ll offer here. My objection comes from my wholly subjective view toward wildlife management in the U.S. and is centered around a social construct that I accepted long ago. In my opinion, it is part of the bedrock that wildlife conservation in the U.S. was built on in response to the excesses of bygone centuries.

To wit: wildlife resources in a given public jurisdiction, if owned by anyone, are owned by all who are subject to that jurisdiction, and when harvest is permitted, equal access must be available to all. Licensing, with all of its permutations across the country seems to generally accommodate this, even when a limited draw system or (argh) no take is involved.

The unlimited take of reptiles in Nevada is, of necessity (in order to make fiscal sense), concentrated in areas considerably smaller than the total habitat available to any species within the state of Nevada. No matter the numbers per hectare for a given species or the rate at which that species can recover, with focused collecting on the scale of that already “self-reported” by these collectors, there are areas left in their wake that are practically unavailable to the rest of us for an undetermined length of time for hobby-collecting or just observation of target species. And, to this, I selfishly object.

It might be said that I could simply go to an area where these collectors haven’t been. At a given time, neither you nor I will know where they have been. The currently permitted collectors advance the argument that they continue to return to the same areas and find lizards. As to what this can mean I offer one example gleaned from their reports by Jason. The take of horned lizards in one area, in different years, dropped from fifty in the first visit to five in the next. I can imagine that a third visit wasn’t seen as worth the time and trouble.

The harvest of deer through the managed, regional, “tag” system in Nevada doesn’t permit this circumstance to develop, and doesn’t seem an apt analogy. As with the rest of those who have posted regarding this issue, I remain unmoved by any of the alternate approaches so far advanced. Moreover, I have no intent to argue ad nauseam.

As an aside, I suspect that there are relatively few here who are so cynical as I toward the regulation of herps and herpers at both the federal and state levels. Although, I further suspect that Ernie might give me a run for my money in this regard.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 12:41 pm 
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At the June Nevada wildlife commissioner's meeting NDOW biologist Jason Jones gave a presentation that was very much inline with what is seen from activist groups. High on tabloid style shock value and nearly devoid of anything that could pass as science. As Jones bumbled and stumbled his was thru this manipulative and at times embarrassingly ill-informed talk . He was clearly unsure of his own "data" as demonstrated by his constant use of verbal qualifiers, he didn't know what he was talking about. It was all guess work, speculation, his personal interpretation and no science. I about puked when this guy referred to himself as a reptile expert. Given Jones awkward display of total scientific ineptness. It would probably be best for all involved if this knucklehead went back to his old job cleaning cages in a pet shop.

To add. Referencing the use of illegal pitfall trap lines by the collectors is a misnomer that has been misused by many. It is legal to use pitfall trap lines in Nevada for the collection of scorpions as the collectors are currently using them.

The information pertaining to the numbers and locations of the pitfall traps was volunteered to the NDOW by the collectors themselves. It typifies the willingness of the live trade to work for sensible solutions and how they are often screwed over for their efforts. Also of note. It wasn't until six months after Jason Jones began studying these traps that he became aware of the fact that the collectors used them to catch scorpion's . That's how poorly informed Jones is about his own research.

I would like to add my source of this information was NDOW biologist Jason Jones.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 2:47 pm 
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:sleep: :sleep: or

:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 4:08 pm 
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So for 6 months he found so many reptiles in them they dominated the schematics. Good to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 4:39 pm 
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Ernie I am so tired of the way you put people down. People who had stood up for you when an unbecoming and potentially humiliating 'photo' was posted, and deleted out of a second thought moment of kindness. You return the gesture with consistant gracelessness the moment there was something they posted you disagreed with.

I have cared for reptiles as long as you. Tell 'me' to go back to cleaning cages Ernie and I can write a list of work I have done, on days I also cleaned the cages, things I know you have not done and more, I know you could not do.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 5:33 pm 
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You are in favor of collection to the point of incredulity.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 6:05 pm 
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I'm not opposed to regulations which make sense. I support bag limits based on sound management principles. I'm not a commercial collector and don't condone limitless collecting. But the timing and manner of how a complete ban is being considered and promoted in Nevada is cause for concern, at least to me.


So do the collector's. The collectors who spoke at the August meeting expressed their willingness (wanting) to work with the NDOW to obtain accurate data and base regulations on that data. They also expressed frustration over the lack of open dialog on the part of the NDOW. Not ever being contacted for information or asked for any type of impute. The collectors that attended spoke very openly about collection locations, problems associated with maintaining accurate records etc. They certainly were willing to work for sensible solutions. That being said,

For those who don't know.This is already looks like a done deal. What is going on now is all for show. At the June meeting Biologist Jason Jones and his tag along partner Jennifer Newmark as is always the case were given the royal treatment.They were allowed to hold court with the commissioners for one hour uninterrupted. Jones awkwardly tried to manipulate opinion and skirted the truth. At times when the commissioners asked questions Jones had difficulty providing factual answers, he nervously glanced around and tried to come up with something that "sounded good". This guy did not know what he was talking about but knew he could BS his way thru. It was disgusting to watch.

At the August meeting NDOW Jennifer Newmark was once again allowed to hold court with the commissioners presenting a lengthy slide show and reciting captions that she clearly had no understanding of. In contrast to this. The collectors in August with very little advanced notification were only allowed a few minutes each. Only one of the commissioners (Kerston Hubbs) expressed intelligent objectivity. It should be understood that wildlife commissioners are not wildlife experts that's why a guy like Jones gets hired, He is an expert! He said it himself. And what he presents and says is viewed as expert scientific opinion no matter how goofy or off the wall it is. These commissioners don't know any better. NDOW biologist Jason Jones is the type of conniving crumb that has sadly become the face of modern biology.

Soon we will be hearing the cry of ....OMG poachers, poachers are depleting Nevada's reptiles from Jones.............its always the next step in BS biology 101. They need a bad guy. Bad guys are good for their business.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 17th, 2017, 10:44 pm 
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Someday having the moral insight of a gourd wont be seen as an intellectual plus in the reptile interests world.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 21st, 2017, 2:06 pm 
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Richard F. Hoyer wrote:
the current issue is the commercial collecting of reptiles in Nevada.

This is the problem I think as well. And people need to stay focused on this, as commercial collecting is most certainly a problem. Anyone who thinks it isn't, is likely just in denial to protect their own agenda as a commercial collector. IMO, collecting any animal, herp or otherwise, for commercial gain, should be banned all together. There is no reason in this day an age that we must continue to rape the planet for our own selfish desires.

That said, as a herper who is against the collection of animals for personal use or monetary gain, I do worry about our rights as herpers to go out into the field and observe, sometimes handle, and photograph animals in their natural habitats. I don't want our actions as herpers to walk a thin line of legality because there is no way to tell a wildlife photographer apart from a commercial collector.

It's just like in California. You are supposed to have a state fishing license to collect (yes, I said FISHING LICENSE, I know, makes no sense in my book either), which I never do, but from what I am told, even if you are just herping, you have to have a license because a game warden "has no way to know" that you are not collecting. This bugs me and I would hate to see NV go down this same path.

But clearly, if there are known issues with commercial collecting, something needs to happen to curtail it.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 25th, 2017, 1:12 pm 
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It's over

https://thenevadaindependent.com/articl ... collection

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 25th, 2017, 2:21 pm 
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I have no real opinion on collecting in Nevada, but since this law passed, will it make the concept of field herping in that state much tougher? That is, any person who is pursuing a herp for a photograph can be seen as a collector?


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 25th, 2017, 3:20 pm 
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Zach_Lim wrote:
I have no real opinion on collecting in Nevada, but since this law passed, will it make the concept of field herping in that state much tougher? That is, any person who is pursuing a herp for a photograph can be seen as a collector?

This is my worry precisely. I carry snake bags with me when hiking and cruising in California, but they are only for temporary use while I move a snake or retain it for photos. But I always worry that my gear will be misconstrued if I was ever stopped by a ranger.

Here in NV I have been stopped 3 times while road cruising. In one case I actually had three snakes bagged on my front seat. I explained to the officer what I was doing and he had no further questions. Likely with regular cops you would never have much of an issue, but with rangers, who knows?

And I think this is the thing about NV and a complete ban. There are thousands of unoccupied acres here in the state, and to patrol this would be nearly impossible. To put a limit on people collecting wouldn't make a difference. So an outright ban that criminalizes commercial collecting is the only logical step. That said, I bet the commercial collecting never stops, it will just go on underground. You can drive out into the desert and bring home 100 animals and no one would be the wiser. They won't be able to stop it there, but they might be able to stop the trafficking of animals after they are collected, which would lead back to the law being broken. But again, this is an area that is likely really difficult to police. Just like the saying goes, "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". The same will happen with illegal collecting.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 25th, 2017, 4:32 pm 
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Regarding Zach's question:

Wildlife enforcement tends to operate on directives from above about what agents should be looking for during a particular day, week, or season. When this new regulation takes effect, enforcement agents may be in warning mode (informing people that they encounter about the new rule [= grace period]). Alternatively, they may be briefed on the new rule, and told to initiate a "crack-down" to get the word out to collectors. The latter briefing would include the types of people, behaviors, and equipment that would cue agents to a likely perpetrator (i.e., Zach).

There also exists a perception as to what might be a commercial operation: two gopher snakes in a bag vs a guy with 68 lizards of four species. This perception is based on whether or not there remains a recreational bag limit in Nevada. Enforcement agents want black-and-white, by-the-book limits, so a guy with 14 horned lizards will probably be perceived as a commercial collector, unless there is a recreational limit of 15 horned lizards in possession.


Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 26th, 2017, 5:30 am 
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And I think this is the thing about NV and a complete ban. There are thousands of unoccupied acres here in the state, and to patrol this would be nearly impossible. To put a limit on people collecting wouldn't make a difference. So an outright ban that criminalizes commercial collecting is the only logical step. That said, I bet the commercial collecting never stops, it will just go on underground. You can drive out into the desert and bring home 100 animals and no one would be the wiser. They won't be able to stop it there, but they might be able to stop the trafficking of animals after they are collected, which would lead back to the law being broken. But again, this is an area that is likely really difficult to police. Just like the saying goes, "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". The same will happen with illegal collecting.


Wow...................talk about not making any sense.


Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 26th, 2017, 7:33 am 
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WSTREPS wrote:
Wow...................talk about not making any sense.

How does it not make sense? What part of what I said did you not understand? These are pretty simple concepts. The only thing that doesn't make sense is your non-constructive addition to the conversation.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 26th, 2017, 9:12 am 

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Wildlife enforcement tends to operate on directives from above about what agents should be looking for during a particular day, week, or season. When this new regulation takes effect, enforcement agents may be in warning mode (informing people that they encounter about the new rule [= grace period]). Alternatively, they may be briefed on the new rule, and told to initiate a "crack-down" to get the word out to collectors. The latter briefing would include the types of people, behaviors, and equipment that would cue agents to a likely perpetrator (i.e., Zach).


This is insightful, and something most readers here probably wouldn't have considered. I think in this case, because 1) there was a very small population of licensed commercial collectors, 2) there were and still are personal-use bag limits, and 3) the LE branch was pretty involved in investigating the pitfall traps issue, that tactical enforcement action will be focused more on cracking down on anyone scooping herps out of the pitfalls. And the detective/investigator side of things will keep working that side of things too. So -

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... since this law passed, will it make the concept of field herping in that state much tougher? That is, any person who is pursuing a herp for a photograph can be seen as a collector?


I think there will be zero effect on the practice of field herping.

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...whether or not there remains a recreational bag limit in Nevada. Enforcement agents want black-and-white, by-the-book limits...


Exactly. I fully expect that a guy with a camera and no animals in a bag, or a guy possessing animals within the bag limits, will have no problems.

Personally, I think this is the time for field herpers to step up their engagement with NDOW, in order that field herping regs be clarified and personal-use limits be liberalized (so that, for example, you could collect 20 or 25 feeder Utas for your pet long-nose or lyre snake, or whatever, and not be mistaken for a "commercial collector"). One of the fundamental roles of a fish and game agency is to allocate access to the resource, subject to both what the resource can support and what the constituents desire. While the agency is working herps, is the time to ask them to work with you on herps. Not when they set this issue down and move on to something else.

My $.02 anyway.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 26th, 2017, 4:33 pm 
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How does it not make sense? What part of what I said did you not understand? These are pretty simple concepts. The only thing that doesn't make sense is your non-constructive addition to the conversation.

Exactly pretty simple concepts. And yet you fail to understand the contradicting nature of your statement.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 26th, 2017, 7:58 pm 
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WSTREPS wrote:
Exactly pretty simple concepts. And yet you fail to understand the contradicting nature of your statement.

I think you simply misinterpreted what I meant. I was simply trying to imagine why a "complete" ban was the easiest solution to the problem in the eyes of the law. My personal opinion aside, I believe this was the only option for them since they don't want to deal with legal grey areas or care to make accommodations for hobbyist collectors or herpers. It takes to many resources to deal with these issues on a case by case basis. So rather then try to get more facts on the situation, they would simply rather just ban it all together and wash their hands.

I made the comparison to guns, because it is the same muddy waters we deal with when it comes to firearms legislation. The anti-gun crowd would rather just ban firearms all together than promote logical laws based on hard facts. While on the flip side, many of the extreme gun rights advocates would see it OK for everyone to have legal access to fully automatic assault rifles and hand grenades at their local Walmart. My point is, like all issues, the best solution usually lies somewhere in the middle, but we almost always end up with a black or white decision. Especially for issues pertaining to herps, where the general public really doesn't give a damn one way or the other anyhow. And thus, the resources to do it right don't exist in the first place.

And as I said, the problem with a state like Nevada, legal or not, is they are going to have a hard time policing thousands of acres of wide open desert. So how will they really stop commercial collecting? The answer is, they can't. The only thing this law might do is prevent or deter the folks who would rather not break the law. It will also aid in prosecuting people who are caught doing it after the law takes effect. So the a law is needed, unfortunately. And I only say unfortunately, because human beings should know better in the first place.

Which is a nice segue into my personal opinion (which I am sure you don't want to hear). I think banning collecting of any wild animals is a step in the right direction. If we could next put an end to the exotic pet trade, I think this would be good as well. And I say this as a former keeper myself, and a person who longs to have a tank or two once again. I just know deep down that it is wrong for a multitude of reasons. And before you click reply, know that I don't want to get into a huge argument about whether or not herps or other animals have emotional intelligence worthy of our respect, because in my mind it is a no-brainer. Nor do I want to get into a discussion about freedom or some other nonsense, because I don't believe life of any kind, should be treated as a commodity.

The bottom line is, keeping herps or other non-domesticated animals for personal profit, enjoyment, curiosity or entertainment is 100% a selfish human act. So we'll just leave it at that. Blast away!


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 26th, 2017, 8:38 pm 
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As a person who has some reptiles, I do not take offense but respect your views.

but most of all your sterling balls to state them.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 27th, 2017, 3:17 am 
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I think you simply misinterpreted what I meant. RenoBart


You think wrong. That is it exactly. Placing your "personal opinion " aside, you clearly don't understand the very concepts you refer to as "simple". This confirmed for a forth time via your own explanation and opinion expressed in this thread.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 27th, 2017, 7:34 am 
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WSTREPS wrote:
Quote:
I think you simply misinterpreted what I meant. RenoBart


You think wrong. That is it exactly. Placing your "personal opinion " aside, you clearly don't understand the very concepts you refer to as "simple". This confirmed for a forth time via your own explanation and opinion expressed in this thread.

Ernie Eison

Again, you sit there and explain nothing from your perspective, so all I can do is sit here and laugh. You still have not explained what you think I don't understand. To sit there and say "you think wrong" does not add any constructive content to this thread. The only take-away I get from your replies, is that you and I are on opposite sides of this issue. And so your knee-jerk reaction is to just say that I am wrong and don't understand. So good sir, unless you would like to add some actual thoughtful commentary, perhaps you should look at your avatar and take your own advice. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 27th, 2017, 7:49 am 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
As a person who has some reptiles, I do not take offense but respect your views.

but most of all your sterling balls to state them.

Thanks, Kelly. I don't think anything I said is difficult to understand. My opinions might be strong and largely unpopular to most folks, but I don't care. I'm sure many herpers on here are also keepers, so I hope you folks out there who still keep herps don't take offense. I myself was an avid keeper in my younger years as well. And like I said, I think about it all the time. But I saw a lot of things I didn't like (in the pet trade) and learned a lot about the consequences (to both the animals, the places they are taken from, and the places they are all too frequently set loose). Know that I am not 100% against it in every single case. There are good reasons for certain people to keep and raise herps. Without captive breeding programs and other scientific research being conducted to conserve and protect the animals, many species would be in even bigger trouble.

At this juncture in time, and at this point in my life, I strongly feel that ANY pressure on wild animals and their habitats should be restricted. The wild places of this world are fighting a loosing battle, and so I personally strive to not add to the problem as much as possible. And I think anyone who disagrees with that is simply in denial, and most likely in denial to protect their own human wanton desires to continue on as we always have. I even question myself as a herper and observer sometimes too...it's a constant battle when you know you are a member of a species that is at odds with the rest of the creatures on this planet.


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 27th, 2017, 8:22 am 
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Manipulative Biologist (example NDOW Jason Jones) preach to naïve individuals having no insight into these matters. Who then try to make broad assumptions about a business they know nothing of. In turn they try using their influence, to convince others of their naïve views, provided the listeners are equally naïve and gullible, and had no practical experience with the situation in real life. These individuals never look farther than their own prejudices. Why should they. They will only disappoint themselves with the truth.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Herpetologists - you can help save Nevada's reptiles
PostPosted: September 27th, 2017, 8:47 am 
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WSTREPS wrote:
Manipulative Biologist (Jason Jones) preach to naïve individuals having no insight into these matters. Who then try to make broad assumptions about a business they know nothing of. In turn they try using their influence, to convince others of their naïve views, provided the listeners are equally naïve and gullible, and had no practical experience with the situation in real life. These individuals never look farther than their own prejudices. Why should they. They will only disappoint themselves with the truth.

Ernie Eison

OK, well, I personally don't know Jason Jones, so I can't speak to his character. And I agree that the people putting these laws into effect, probably have zero understanding or first hand experience about what they are even working to legislate. Again, much like anti-gun lobbyists who have never so much as even seen a real gun, much less fired one. LOL

Yet, your reply still does not explain why you think I "think wrong". If you are accusing me of falling prey to the preaching of this Jason Jones person you clearly have a problem with, then I have to say you are the one who is naive about me. As I said, I don't know Jason Jones. Furthermore, I don't know you, and you don't know me. I was simply contributing my thoughts on the subject, on what I believe to be an open forum about field herping. If my opinion offended you, I apologize for that. But I do not apologize for taking a side on this issue. To be perfectly honest, I only skimmed the text in the links posted about this new legislation. My replies here have been based purely on my own speculation as to why a "complete ban" was put into effect vs something a little more comprehensive that takes all interested parties into account. In addition, I added my two cents regarding commercial collecting and the keeping of animals in captivity. Yes, I take a hard line stance on matters of animal welfare and conservation. And yes, that opinion works in direct opposition to what many people think they should be allowed to freely do with wild animals. And no, I don't care if you disagree, but you are welcome to.


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