I want somebody to explain to me this... when I was a kid, there was a field that harbored a huge seasonal frog pond each year. I remember walking up to it and seeing countless baby treefrogs jumping from the shore and into the water for escape. Last year I was wondering, why don't I ever come across any treefrog morphs. So many are here, I should have better odds and I still haven't found one. And I thought to myself.... dude, the green ones are the morphs!
I specifically remember looking through hundreds of tree frogs and then eventually you would see a green one. Furthermore, you would only see a tan one at about the same ratio and even less the red brick colored ones. so, I want someone to explain to me why those aren't morphs , aberrant, or tell me that they are and I just didn't know Because I have always thought of them as a normal variation... however now, I'm realizing that I just saw enough green treefrogs to consider it a normal thing because of how many treefrogs are born each year in mass quantities. Set me straight!
And then explain to me why when I posted a video of this snake that Chad Lane and I found back in 2011, and labeled entitled the video as an aberrant rattlesnake, I was told that I was wrong and the rattlesnake is just a normal variation... Despite the fact that it's so yellow the color difference extends Through The Eyes.
Because I have to be honest... I think you are all wrong
Northern Pacific Rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus) by Chad Lane, on Flickr
The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
Moderator: Scott Waters
Re: The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
Because they do morph, the pseudacris, doesn’t a morph make.
- BillMcGighan
- Posts: 2362
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:23 am
- Location: Unicoi, TN
Re: The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
Just addressing the frogs:
Color is only a general field mark in Acris and Pseudacris, and can change based on temperature and possibly anxiety level.
in these 3 examples, this is the same frog in a period of 5-10 minutes:
First, as found, on road, temp 43F.
Second, jumped off road.
Third, sitting quietly for a 5-10 minutes.
Color is only a general field mark in Acris and Pseudacris, and can change based on temperature and possibly anxiety level.
in these 3 examples, this is the same frog in a period of 5-10 minutes:
First, as found, on road, temp 43F.
Second, jumped off road.
Third, sitting quietly for a 5-10 minutes.
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Re: The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
Oh yeah. I'm aware of all that guys. Anytime I flip a tree frog after rain it's so dark grey it's almost black. Warm it up and it'll look lite tan.
Here's the more specific point to my question... the green treefrogs look dark green when they're flipped and when they warm up, they're still green. Just a lighter/brighter shade of green. Green frogs don't ever look tan or gray or red. (however there are multi colored gray frogs that display green and red. But that's a gray base colored frog not a green base colored frog). In fact I'm pretty sure the red ones are the same way. They're dark red when you flip them... Then only get lighter in color but it's the same shade of red just like the green ones. Something else... I have never seen a patternless grey tree frog. I want to say I've seen patternless tan ones but they were real small and during the day hopping around... not a hundred percent sure and I don't have a photo of one.
I'm wondering if that is evidence that green is a morphism. For example with striped phased gopher snakes. It seems to me the more extreme the morphism , the more patternless they are.... patternless being at the far end Spectrum removing all the DNA coding that is involved with a normal-looking gopher snakes blotching/spot patterns . Also check out these Western toads. The golden ones are found amongst normal colored toads at the same locale. The first one showing very little pattern and 2nd very close to fully patternless... They are golden in color like Chad's buzztail.
So, is a lack of pattern considered an indication of true morphism....? If so, does anyone have a pic of a patternless grey or tan pseudacris?
Golden California Toad by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
California Toad by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
Patternless Golden California Toad by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
Sierran Treefrog by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
Sierran Treefrog by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
Here's the more specific point to my question... the green treefrogs look dark green when they're flipped and when they warm up, they're still green. Just a lighter/brighter shade of green. Green frogs don't ever look tan or gray or red. (however there are multi colored gray frogs that display green and red. But that's a gray base colored frog not a green base colored frog). In fact I'm pretty sure the red ones are the same way. They're dark red when you flip them... Then only get lighter in color but it's the same shade of red just like the green ones. Something else... I have never seen a patternless grey tree frog. I want to say I've seen patternless tan ones but they were real small and during the day hopping around... not a hundred percent sure and I don't have a photo of one.
I'm wondering if that is evidence that green is a morphism. For example with striped phased gopher snakes. It seems to me the more extreme the morphism , the more patternless they are.... patternless being at the far end Spectrum removing all the DNA coding that is involved with a normal-looking gopher snakes blotching/spot patterns . Also check out these Western toads. The golden ones are found amongst normal colored toads at the same locale. The first one showing very little pattern and 2nd very close to fully patternless... They are golden in color like Chad's buzztail.
So, is a lack of pattern considered an indication of true morphism....? If so, does anyone have a pic of a patternless grey or tan pseudacris?
Golden California Toad by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
California Toad by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
Patternless Golden California Toad by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
Sierran Treefrog by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
Sierran Treefrog by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr
- BillMcGighan
- Posts: 2362
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:23 am
- Location: Unicoi, TN
Re: The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
I’m guessing that you’ve been talking about Sierra Tree frogs (Pseudacris sierra) and/or Northern Pacific Tree frog (Pseudacris regilla), though you never said so. Both of these are polymorphic, that is, a species that has several typical forms (colors in your case), so in the simplest answer, the green ones are “morphs”, the brown ones are “morphs”, the red ones are “morphs”, etc.. Both species typically occur in green, reddish, tan, gray, brown, or black.Here's the more specific point to my question... the green treefrogs look dark green when they're flipped and when they warm up, they're still green. Just a lighter/brighter shade of green. Green frogs don't ever look tan or gray or red. (however there are multi colored gray frogs that display green and red. But that's a gray base colored frog not a green base colored frog). In fact I'm pretty sure the red ones are the same way. They're dark red when you flip them... Then only get lighter in color but it's the same shade of red just like the green ones. .......... I'm wondering if that is evidence that green is a morphism.
I fear that your fixation on animals that are “different” has come from the “deli cup” world where mutant animals, like those that are leucistic, amelanistic, Anerythristic, Axanthic, etc. are misleadingly commonplace. In the field, these mutations are generally not common. Most mutants fail and are a disadvantage to life in the wild.
Re: The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
Yeah, just Sierra tree frogs. I'm in California, but the ones I'm referring to are the Sierran Treefrogs.
Okay, I get what you're saying. It's like me asking which chameleons are morphs... pardon the terminology. So aberrant is probably more the focus of what I'm trying to get at. Basically, those golden toads are not a common occurrence. At least as far as I know they are not. It only happens in a certain locale. I think I'm the only one that's ever found one but I'm assuming that cause I've never seen anyone post photos of one. The striped gopher snakes only occur in certain locales as well. Same with black bellied kingsnakes. I'm assuming green tree frogs occur just about everywhere but I'm not sure. Also not sure if patternless green tree frogs occur everywhere. I found plenty of green tree frogs in the Bay area accept most them had black Bloch patterns aside from the one individual that was found near the ocean in the photo above.
Green as a color for a frog just seems to be a common thing because ever since we were kids and looked in some book of a drawn frog it was always colored green. Just like all pigs are pink. But in ratio to a birth population... It seems to me that the green frogs are aberrant. Meaning there's like 10 of 1000 that develop from tadpoles. Even though green would be a better camouflage color and should be more adaptable according to survival of the fittest. We should be looking at thousands of green frogs that can hide in the grass and the others occurring in small numbers.
And green doesn't fade and go away as far as I know... Maybe I'm wrong? Does anyone have proof that green coloration fades out completely?
Are there any charts or studies that has been done where somebone went out in the field and counted fresh metamorph baby frogs and have the actual numbers/ratios for each color?
Okay, I get what you're saying. It's like me asking which chameleons are morphs... pardon the terminology. So aberrant is probably more the focus of what I'm trying to get at. Basically, those golden toads are not a common occurrence. At least as far as I know they are not. It only happens in a certain locale. I think I'm the only one that's ever found one but I'm assuming that cause I've never seen anyone post photos of one. The striped gopher snakes only occur in certain locales as well. Same with black bellied kingsnakes. I'm assuming green tree frogs occur just about everywhere but I'm not sure. Also not sure if patternless green tree frogs occur everywhere. I found plenty of green tree frogs in the Bay area accept most them had black Bloch patterns aside from the one individual that was found near the ocean in the photo above.
Green as a color for a frog just seems to be a common thing because ever since we were kids and looked in some book of a drawn frog it was always colored green. Just like all pigs are pink. But in ratio to a birth population... It seems to me that the green frogs are aberrant. Meaning there's like 10 of 1000 that develop from tadpoles. Even though green would be a better camouflage color and should be more adaptable according to survival of the fittest. We should be looking at thousands of green frogs that can hide in the grass and the others occurring in small numbers.
And green doesn't fade and go away as far as I know... Maybe I'm wrong? Does anyone have proof that green coloration fades out completely?
Are there any charts or studies that has been done where somebone went out in the field and counted fresh metamorph baby frogs and have the actual numbers/ratios for each color?
- BillMcGighan
- Posts: 2362
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:23 am
- Location: Unicoi, TN
Re: The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
Though these two reads are about H. (A.) regilla, there’s a high probability A. sierra does the same. Someone with access to JSTOR may have more.
“Previous investigators have generally assumed that the green and brown body colors represent a “fixed” polymorphism and that seasonal changes in the proportion of the two body colors are a consequence of differential survival of the two color morphs. Here we report that, in addition to the “fixed” (i.e., non‐color‐changing) green and brown morphs of H. regilla, there are some individuals that can change hue between green and brown. “
- Wendy H. Wente and John B. Phillips
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/378253
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1712509?seq ... b_contents
“Previous investigators have generally assumed that the green and brown body colors represent a “fixed” polymorphism and that seasonal changes in the proportion of the two body colors are a consequence of differential survival of the two color morphs. Here we report that, in addition to the “fixed” (i.e., non‐color‐changing) green and brown morphs of H. regilla, there are some individuals that can change hue between green and brown. “
- Wendy H. Wente and John B. Phillips
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/378253
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1712509?seq ... b_contents
Re: The Mystery of the granted green Pseudacris
Cool, thanks for the info Bill. I don't have time to read them right now but I will.
Well...sheet. I guess that means I have to keep looking for a damn morph treefrog then
Anybody out there got some pictures of cool frog morphs...? albino, amelanistic, leucistic, melanistic, axanthic... lethargic?
Well...sheet. I guess that means I have to keep looking for a damn morph treefrog then
Anybody out there got some pictures of cool frog morphs...? albino, amelanistic, leucistic, melanistic, axanthic... lethargic?