And Then... I Found Myself In Sierra De Mayo -parte uno

Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'.

Otherwise, thanks for sharing. Fun looking habitat, shows some of the upside of fire. I also like those weird ensatinas you got there.

cheers

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 9th, 2019, 12:18 pm

Jimi wrote:Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'.

Otherwise, thanks for sharing. Fun looking habitat, shows some of the upside of fire. I also like those weird ensatinas you got there.

cheers

Lol no worries man. I know exactly what you mean. I do want to say, that what you’re seeing is totally staged. it didn’t happen like that. Also, I was the one who wanted to pull out a baby to get some good photos of. Just because I haven’t seen or had an opportunity to photograph a high contrast Juvie in a while. Not RenoBart.

I asked RenoBartTo act like he was grabbing for one with the tongs. As I took photos. He never did grab the little snake because the one we were going for a climbed back into the rocks wedge. Can’t tell if you can see in the photo or not, but as he’s clamp down there’s no snake in it. So then after I took those photos I wanted. There was actually someones hook left their behind. Someone was there before us and left their hook up there. So I took that snake hook And asked RenoBart to get out of the way from where he was standing on some soft slopey powder dirt.Then I hooked the second little juvenile that the other one was laying on With a perfect angle gentle mid body scoop, and gently tossed it over onto the soft powder dirt. It may sound barbaric, but I’ve held rattlesnakes of that size several times since I was a kid. Along with all other snakes of course. I would not have done it if I thought there was any chance of it hurting the snake and trust me he was landing on a soft cloud pillow not on any kind of hard granite rock or anything that would hurt him. I’m sure he didn’t like it very much and surprised the shit out of em tho

because I’m pretty sure he was asleep. No tongue Flickr from what I remember. But yes, I’d much rather have left it insitu. I agree with you 100% Jimi. Another reason why I’m looking forward to getting a good video camera. Zoom on that snake is much more how I’d like to be handling things. Instead of having to pull it out for a macro where u have to stick the camera 5 inches from the snake. Hat trick it. Pose it. And all that nonsense. So good things to come

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 9th, 2019, 12:31 pm

Also, I want to say. If the soft Sierra powder dirt wasn’t there… I would have never even thought of doing that.

Again, I know how it sounds. But I’ve been doing this forever and I know for a fact that not a single little bone in that delicate little baby was injured. And only did it because I was 100% sure of that. I’ve got a better sense of things like that than average person on things of that nature. I was born with it. Sensitive touch. Natural Geometric Understanding. And a bit more in depth thought process. Again I was just born that way. Grandson of a World War II fighter pilot. It’s in my DNA I guess. Has something to do with how the brain has to maneuver the plane in the air to dodge bullets and how important angles are in relation to natural forces like wind and what not. Again just born in my DNA. I don’t believe that the average human could’ve done that because I know they can’t… There was a certain talent involved. Whether anyone believes it or not. I have a more Percise sensibility of pressure points and all that. It’s like how some people can shoot pool and other people can’t.I’ve seen people grab snacks in front of me in the field that pose more danger to that snake from it being grabbed by that person then what I did with this little snack....

I know that for a fact. And I’m sorry

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 9th, 2019, 12:44 pm

A lot goes unnoticed by the average person…

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 9th, 2019, 12:49 pm

Acute sense Of accuracy**

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 9th, 2019, 8:59 pm

I’m only posting this to a sure anyone and everyone that that little rattle snake was not harmed. For no other reason am I posting this.

BillMcGighan · Post by **BillMcGighan** » January 10th, 2019, 5:30 am

I’ve been doing this forever and I know for a fact that not a single little bone in that delicate little baby was injured. And only did it because I was 100% sure of that. I’ve got a better sense of things like that than average person on things of that nature. I was born with it. Sensitive touch. Natural Geometric Understanding. And a bit more in depth thought process. Again I was just born that way. Grandson of a World War II fighter pilot. It’s in my DNA I guess. Has something to do with how the brain has to maneuver the plane in the air to dodge bullets and how important angles are in relation to natural forces like wind and what not. Again just born in my DNA. I don’t believe that the average human could’ve done that because I know they can’t… There was a certain talent involved. Whether anyone believes it or not. I have a more Percise sensibility of pressure points and all that. It’s like how some people can shoot pool and other people can’t.I’ve seen people grab snacks in front of me in the field that pose more danger to that snake from it being grabbed by that person then what I did with this little snack.... I know that for a fact. And I’m sorry

ME ME ME ME ME ME!

The difference between an act of unnecessary stupidity and one of real value is the not the act, but the reason for the act.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 5:33 am

BillMcGighan wrote:
I’ve been doing this forever and I know for a fact that not a single little bone in that delicate little baby was injured. And only did it because I was 100% sure of that. I’ve got a better sense of things like that than average person on things of that nature. I was born with it. Sensitive touch. Natural Geometric Understanding. And a bit more in depth thought process. Again I was just born that way. Grandson of a World War II fighter pilot. It’s in my DNA I guess. Has something to do with how the brain has to maneuver the plane in the air to dodge bullets and how important angles are in relation to natural forces like wind and what not. Again just born in my DNA. I don’t believe that the average human could’ve done that because I know they can’t… There was a certain talent involved. Whether anyone believes it or not. I have a more Percise sensibility of pressure points and all that. It’s like how some people can shoot pool and other people can’t.I’ve seen people grab snacks in front of me in the field that pose more danger to that snake from it being grabbed by that person then what I did with this little snack.... I know that for a fact. And I’m sorry
ME ME ME ME ME ME!

The difference between an act of unnecessary stupidity and one of real value is the not the act, but the reason for the act.

Land that coin trick yet...?

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 7:47 am

...and no “me me me mama me”

The only reason I wrote all that explanation is because I didn’t want kids going around flinging rattlesnakes across the forest. Since I’ve been given the crown of childhood role model within the forum Realm.And yeah given to me I didn’t ask for it. And notice, I didn’t mention it in the post. I had to say it because I’m an honest person and suddenly people had a problem with grabbing rattlesnakes with tongues. So I had to get RenoBart off the “snake” hook for that one.. whole reason I took those photos so people wouldn’t think I was grab him with my hands

This is what I get for setting a good example

And I don’t know what reason you’re talking about. The only reason I had for pullin the snake out is I want to photograph it. Duh. And what’s stupid about hooking a rattlesnake. What her purse don’t hook rattlesnakes now...? Obviously you’re just looking for an excuse to smear your jelly and attempted to toast my ass

You know I’m gonna say something that should’ve been said 10 years ago. When I first got involved with this community back in 2009 2010 whatever. I noticed something that was very disturbing to me and I remember how much it bothered me… These herpers who would launch these attacks on me about how I’m not doing it the way they think it should be done because they got All this respect for the animals and stuff right. The protectors of the reptiles. The elite lol When one of them find a snake or a salamander that’s hard to find a really cool or what they consider to be cool in their little groups. They always say the same thing, “omg, I’m so jelly” Someone finds a cool looking reptile. And then their friends get jealous. And the friend that finds it gets all ego sunshine built up ego over the fact friends are jealous of it. I remember thinking, that is the most disgusting thing I’ve ever witnessed in my life. All these people that say they love these snakes and I am such a bad guy for picking up a rattlesnake and all this stuff. The first thought that goes through their mind and they’re hearts when one of their “friends” finds a snake that they haven’t found before,... they get jealous. The first emotion they feel in their heart and the first thought they think in their mind is routed through hatred. And these are liberal kids that are supposed to be fighting against Donald Trump, the bad people, the friggin empire, for chrissake....lol That’s how I realized...they’re just jealous of me. They have no other motivation. Sad. But whatever. I know from day one anytime I saw someone out do me, they gain my respect and they get my compliments. It’s always been that way with me from day one. Just because I’m such a evil person you know.

So what I have to say to you Mr. Bill, is...If you can’t do that coin trick, you don’t have the credentials to speak on my level. Lmao So keep your thoughts to yourself and don’t say anything to anyone in less you have something nice to say

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 10th, 2019, 11:38 am

When I read this stuff, it was late and I asked my partner to get me a quarter out of the tupperware thing we have for loose change, on the kitchen table. I couldnt get up because I had a little tiger lady stretched out over my lap.

After a couple tries, I got it. It was awkward as I dont remember the last time I even called heads or tails on something. I tried again, couldnt get it. I got my phone out as a great urge to post me doing it curled hotly and unwholesomely. The 12 year old tomboy in me, is Alive and Well, but that wasnt the operative. I did it again after many tries, but couldnt get it when i tried to video it.

Most of my own accomplishments that have been meaningful to me, and that I will always remember, have been animal associated. Actually - all of them. At least the ones that gave my sternum a deep inner glow. But none of them I have documented with a camera.

What irked me about your post, is it is like a trap, in response and to prevent critical review.

The notion that If there is No Photo, it didnt Happen, can become malignant. Something is lost when the ego gets in front of the spirit of our stories.

If a surgeon didnt learn the coin trick, should he turn in his license? Of course not. Coins and momentum dont relate to living tissue.

This was wrong, and I know it doesnt satisfy or bring you peace about your post to have made such a move.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:When I read this stuff, it was late and I asked my partner to get me a quarter out of the tupperware thing we have for loose change, on the kitchen table. I couldnt get up because I had a little tiger lady stretched out over my lap.

After a couple tries, I got it. It was awkward as I dont remember the last time I even called heads or tails on something. I tried again, couldnt get it. I got my phone out as a great urge to post me doing it curled hotly and unwholesomely. The 12 year old tomboy in me, is Alive and Well, but that wasnt the operative. I did it again after many tries, but couldnt get it when i tried to video it.

Most of my own accomplishments that have been meaningful to me, and that I will always remember, have been animal associated. Actually - all of them. At least the ones that gave my sternum a deep inner glow. But none of them I have documented with a camera.

What irked me about your post, is it is like a trap, in response and to prevent critical review.

The notion that If there is No Photo, it didnt Happen, can become malignant. Something is lost when the ego gets in front of the spirit of our stories.

If a surgeon didnt learn the coin trick, should he turn in his license? Of course not. Coins and momentum dont relate to living tissue.

This was wrong, and I know it doesnt satisfy or bring you peace about your post to have made such a move.

Well then, you are officially a certified baby rattlesnake chucker. So go out and get yourself some tongs, find some soft dirt, and start chucking rattlesnakes across the forest

And like you said, no photo no proof.

But if you REALLY did it you’re seriously in the 1% considering that’s my own personal made coin trick. I never saw anyone do it before me and I’ve never seen anyone able to do it....I came up with it while sitting bored at work when I worked at the casino and messing around with the poker chip . Which by the way is much easier than a slippery coin....And I HAVE shown a few people over the years. So if you actually did get it within a few tries, should be a piece a cake to get that cell phone out and get some video of it today and post for all of us to see, because you are officially in the elite group of rattlesnake forest chuckers.... and you should be proud.

I’m a make patches And we’re going to start a gang.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 10th, 2019, 1:14 pm

Youve got to be kidding that you're the only person youve ever seen do that.

It wasnt that hard, and I had a cat milling around me while I did it.

But most telling, Porter is you are ignoring the actual content of the post.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 10th, 2019, 1:39 pm

I cant believe I'm actually considering trying to do it again. And that Im pissed off.

This feeling, that I am having right now is of the same taxon that causes people to get turned off to peoples input.

It has the sharp aroma of defensiveness, and comes from a broken place.

Bill was right in what he said and it goes across board, myself included. The people who are most respected around here, seem to have less "I"s and "Me"s in their presentations.

It isnt jealousy Porter, its that.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 4:40 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:Youve got to be kidding that you're the only person youve ever seen do that.

It wasnt that hard, and I had a cat milling around me while I did it.

But most telling, Porter is you are ignoring the actual content of the post.

Well like I said, I’ve never seen anyone do it because I invented it. It’s just a stupid little exercise for my mind that I do when I got bored. I don’t really want it around or brag about it. But there’s been a couple times I did challenge someone to see if they could do it just out of pure random Ness. I probably started doing it while we were at the gas station or something in they tried it and couldn’t do it. But I think it displays hey certain ability to handle things with delicate care. And that’s why I posted the video

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 4:41 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:I cant believe I'm actually considering trying to do it again. And that Im pissed off.

This feeling, that I am having right now is of the same taxon that causes people to get turned off to peoples input.

It has the sharp aroma of defensiveness, and comes from a broken place.

Bill was right in what he said and it goes across board, myself included. The people who are most respected around here, seem to have less "I"s and "Me"s in their presentations.

It isnt jealousy Porter, its that.

You’ve got the rest of your life to learn how to do it. You don’t have to post a video tonight. Just keep working on it till you get it

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 10th, 2019, 5:16 pm

Porter wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:Youve got to be kidding that you're the only person youve ever seen do that.

It wasnt that hard, and I had a cat milling around me while I did it.

But most telling, Porter is you are ignoring the actual content of the post.
Well like I said, I’ve never seen anyone do it because I invented it. It’s just a stupid little exercise for my mind that I do when I got bored. I don’t really want it around or brag about it. But there’s been a couple times I did challenge someone to see if they could do it just out of pure random Ness. I probably started doing it while we were at the gas station or something in they tried it and couldn’t do it. But I think it displays hey certain ability to handle things with delicate care. And that’s why I posted the video

Im sorry if you think of that as a unique invention, Porter. People have been flipping quarters for as long as theyve been minted. Some people even make them disappear.

I was probably lucky, and have above average timing myself TBH. But all that it proves is that youve flipped alot of quarters. There was nothing it it that "proves" your DNA to dodge bullets and predict a snake will wont writhe in hyperbole against metal at being disturbed in its hiding place. Especially, in my humble level crote knowledge, a rook.

But Ive cared for pit vipers jsyk. Very Upset ones that had been stressed on purpose, one with cigarette shorts, and tossed around per car trunk in jars from Missouri to ca.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 5:41 pm

You never did it Kelly. You just messing with my head. And I’m tired of it so I’m not gonna respond anymore. Also with the name bombs and you know what I’m talking about. You’re trying to come up with any little thing to aggravate me. As I’m sitting here trying to make jokes and take it lightly with humor.

Don’t apologize because I don’t care

Make a video of you doing the coin trick or don’t but I don’t expect me to believe you. Also, up there could be some possibility that someone in the world flip the coin and caught on the back of their finger but I sure as hell didn’t see it before I did it and it was an original idea… Let me repeat that, it was an original idea . And if you can find any evidence that someone did that trick before me posting this video yesterday, then maybe I’ll give you hundred dollars. But you’re not gonna find that information. Just like you’re not gonna find any factual information that I heard that snake. It’s all what you want to believe everything a one of you people. 5 foot nine situation again I do it exactly the same way because I know I handled it correctly with no harm to the animal. I know enough about snakes to know That.

I’m going to finish my third segment of my end of year post soon and then I’m not gonna be posting on this form and less it’s a video to share with people. I’m going to go away and I’m going to continue to think positive even though I’ve got all this negative criticism kicking down my door trying to get me involved in these little battles so that people can go around saying that I’m such a creep. I’m aware of the babe. I’m aware of the tricks. You can’t catch that quarter on your finger though because you’re not capable of not hurting that little rattlesnake. And I respect you that you would not do that because You know it exceeds your limits. And me thinking it’s my grandfather’s DNA is just me trying to figure out where I get it from but the truth of the matter is I don’t know… I’m an artist. I have a sensitive touch. Women have told me I’m a master at the art of cunnilingus. I don’t know why I’m just awesome like that

One more post people… And then you can Frankenstein me for the rest of your lives but it will be pointless because I will already have left and all you will get are the remnant film agra fee debris that happens to flow through this for him around that I love so much. And honestly I do you love it that’s not even sarcasm. This form is awesome. Why else would a poster. Probably because I know there’s people out there that are truly my friend and they see what The truth is. But really I just love the whole form in general. The simple things like it has a black background to post your photos on. What a great artistic pallet to work from.

Funniest thing to me is… Here I am the bad guy when I’m Marley one of the greatest guys I’ve ever lived in. And I got these people constantly trying to prove to me that is not true. It blows my mind. Once again, jealousy… That’s the only exclamation I can gather after years of trying to figure it out. Sucks but whatever I don’t care. Only reason you people think I’m slime is because you take my words and process it in your own mind and apply it to your own mental ways of thinking. Anyways there’s gonna be some very beautiful videos to come period piece

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 10th, 2019, 5:51 pm

You arent listening to feedback, Porter. Not anyone's.

Good luck with your videos, and when you post them, that you get what it is you so clearly desire.

But you're not listening.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 6:02 pm

$200 if you can find evidence of that coin check was ever performed before me. I give you my word. But the evidence can’t be fraudulent. And I want To add that that little rattlesnake dropping off a hook on the middle of the road someone trying to hook it before a car runs it over would’ve taken more of a muscle bruise then ever could’ve occurred buy me tossing it over into the soft powdery dirt. And if there’s no knowledge for anybody to comprehend that logically well then… Whatever

Do you want to know what I wanna accomplish with these videos. I’m going to be planting a seed of inspiration. Like I’ve done ever since 2009. And when I see it on Facebook three years after the fact,And being credited to someone else, Then I know that it was successful. Just like I have seen in the past

And positive change Was successful

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 10th, 2019, 8:46 pm

you know what… it just Dondonde me. I spent so much time thinking, how can I make things right with these people… How can I change their opinion about me. How can I help these people. The answer is clear. I need to just go away. That’s what they wanted from day one. I was always that hot come flying in posing a threat on the black bird nest. It was always like that. So what’s the one thing I can Do you to make things right. Be a good man.… Not buy that video camera. Don’t post any video. Don’t increase any more hatred. So there it is. And one last time, I’m sorry

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 10th, 2019, 9:52 pm

creative people are important. You should get the video camera and realize that you are blessed with the ability to use it well, and that you get to go places and enjoy your muses.

Maybe you should think about not trying to control what people think. You will never really know, anyway.

Every one here is interested in herps and pretty much all animals so your subject material is a mountain of gold just waiting.

We are happiest when we vanish into what we love.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 11th, 2019, 7:48 pm

918FF408-C255-4081-985F-11598BCB69C7 by Kelly McDougall, on Flickr

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 13th, 2019, 4:29 pm

Porter does it more gracefully, quick and native as a fish gulp.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 27th, 2019, 2:09 pm

Kelly Mc wrote: ↑
January 10th, 2019, 11:38 am
When I read this stuff, it was late and I asked my partner to get me a quarter out of the tupperware thing we have for loose change, on the kitchen table. I couldnt get up because I had a little tiger lady stretched out over my lap.

After a couple tries, I got it. It was awkward as I dont remember the last time I even called heads or tails on something. I tried again, couldnt get it. I got my phone out as a great urge to post me doing it curled hotly and unwholesomely. The 12 year old tomboy in me, is Alive and Well, but that wasnt the operative. I did it again after many tries, but couldnt get it when i tried to video it.

Most of my own accomplishments that have been meaningful to me, and that I will always remember, have been animal associated. Actually - all of them. At least the ones that gave my sternum a deep inner glow. But none of them I have documented with a camera.

What irked me about your post, is it is like a trap, in response and to prevent critical review.

The notion that If there is No Photo, it didnt Happen, can become malignant. Something is lost when the ego gets in front of the spirit of our stories.

If a surgeon didnt learn the coin trick, should he turn in his license? Of course not. Coins and momentum dont relate to living tissue.

This was wrong, and I know it doesnt satisfy or bring you peace about your post to have made such a move.

You didn't do the trick. However, Im glad you posted because it illustrates my point with clarity. I've had orthoscopic sergery done on my shoulder. If the doctor is not capible of precise steadyhanded skills of minute detail....he's not working on me.( And they have to have that skill ,AND prove it, before earning their qualifications to do such surgeries before they are allowed to do it. Some doctors are not qualified to be surgons...)
The coin trick is to flip, not throw, the coin and catch it in between the two joints on your index finger. Not catch it up high on your finger, closer to your hand,where there is more leverage or with two fingers where the coin's edge can rest against the finger next to it.
The keyword here is... minute

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 27th, 2019, 3:51 pm

Well, a quarter won't stay on my finger, even if I set it there, so you are The Winner!

I cant help but think of the middle one as being a special bonus just for you, though.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 27th, 2019, 6:27 pm

Kelly Mc wrote: ↑
January 27th, 2019, 3:51 pm
Well, a quarter won't stay on my finger, even if I set it there, so you are The Winner!

I was never trying to win anything... only to show that I didn't harm that snake and wouldn't. Certain people over the years (10 years...) seemed to have had a hard time believing in that concept. So, I spent time trying to understand why. I came to the conclusion that they see me as they see themselves. Incapable of such a thing. Then, I dug deeper and realized I'm more skilled with my hands from DNA and refining those talents through art and other things. I was forced to believe, I'm the exception... and I'm sorry that I'm not on their level. I'm more ashamed to have lost their friendships than I am proud of my small home in Dagobah

Kelly Mc wrote: ↑
January 27th, 2019, 3:51 pm

I cant help but think of the middle one as being a special bonus just for you, though.

Let me remind you of EVERYTHING you wrote on this post...not gonna quote it. Everything you wrote was in attempt to discredit me in some way. Mostly about the coin flip. Forgive me if I don't sympathize in your loss. Leaving you angry and bitter. But in all honesty, your comment was truely the funniest thing I've ever read on social media in all of the 10 yrs

..and I like it for it's comedic value. NOT because you cant hold a coin on your finger

Ya know... my initial reaction to you showing me your coin toss was this: She's old. Let it go Richard. Anyone who cares to even look can see she didn't do it. Move on with your life. You've always been respectful to your elders. Something your friends parents have always liked about you. "The good one..." If my friend was on restriction. He couldn't have anyone over...but, "Richie can come over and stay the night" It's because of the good influence I was on her son who was 2 years older than me. So, I thought... let her have it. Let her "win." (To put things in your terms) Then, over the course of 2 weeks I was told to "buy the camera"...." don't listen to those people"...."what did you expect from that forum"....still, I didn't budge. Then I read your "no pic no proof" post and your "tidy timing of it" ...and remembered it's title's reference in this post to that concept, before your creation of that post. still, I did not budge. Then I remembered arguments between you and hellihooks. Still, I did not budge... I looked up at my grandfathers picture above my television next to my grandmother's Urn on several occasions...Still I did not budge.

Then I thought of Star Wars... and then the concept of younglings. Children. ...and I thought, their are kids out there that look up to me or did at one time. And I thought...there very possibly could be kids thinking hooking a baby rattlesnake is as easy as flopping a coin onto the back of your hand...and at that moment. Thinking of not only the animals safety, but the kid's saftey...the younglings... at that moment, I felt obligated to say something

And again, I... am... sorry

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 27th, 2019, 6:35 pm

Hands are fun to draw though.

WP_20190127_18_11_01_Pro.jpg by Kelly McDougall, on Flickr

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 28th, 2019, 7:52 pm

With all the copious text about me, and my doing your trick wrong, and all the dramatic introspection about you not budging, I see you left out entirely that I sent you the video first.

We had a conversation. I was candid with you about my discomfort about implying (quite elaborately when one reads it the thread again, as i just have) that I lied about doing a coin trick, and told you about my own occasional sense of "message board" estrangement, and shared some disappointments.
It was then you bizarrely told me you would like to post our conversation - but that you would "leave out" those things. You repeated what you deemed "sensitive" items I shared, TWICE. And how you would " leave them out." They were nothing outrageous, but certainly awkward. I guess you thought they would invite criticism. You may be right, but the sleazy layer of how you treated my trust that we were having a real conversation, a friendly one, was made creepily clear.

It was at that moment I realized it was TIME TO GET OUT OF THE CAR.

You operate in some twisted sister ways brah.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 28th, 2019, 11:52 pm

Kelly Mc wrote: ↑
January 28th, 2019, 7:52 pm
With all the copious text about me, and my doing your trick wrong, and all the dramatic introspection about you not budging, I see you left out entirely that I sent you the video first.

We had a conversation. I was candid with you about my discomfort about implying (quite elaborately when one reads it the thread again, as i just have) that I lied about doing a coin trick, and told you about my own occasional sense of "message board" estrangement, and shared some disappointments.
It was then you bizarrely told me you would like to post our conversation - but that you would "leave out" those things. You repeated what you deemed "sensitive" items I shared, TWICE. And how you would " leave them out." They were nothing outrageous, but certainly awkward. I guess you thought they would invite criticism. You may be right, but the sleazy layer of how you treated my trust that we were having a real conversation, a friendly one, was made creepily clear.

It was at that moment I realized it was TIME TO GET OUT OF THE CAR.

You operate in some twisted sister ways brah.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 12:03 am

DUUUDE Its A METAPHORE!

Get out of the Car = Back away from the Toxic Crazy Guy.

I texted you the video - You got Strange.

I havent listened to all your "movie" jus up to the part where you said "She was ever even in my Car"

Wow you are DENSE.

Ok do I really want to hear the rest? Might as well.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 12:12 am

You're a liar Porter.

I Never asked you to post it, I did say it would be funny and positive, but backed out of the conversation (Texted)

When you made the bizarre comment of "Posting" our convo

And your odd, smarmy suggestion of Leaving Out some things I talked about which, if you do post it UNEDITED, everyone can see exactly what was said.

Let them see Porter.

Do It.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 12:22 am

You look a little nervous Porter.

Post it. Lets take an unedited look. Post your "screenshots"

I have no idea how to get texts on my laptop, and you know what else, my wife has to help me post my pics, Im inept at computer stuff.

Go ahead Porter, its become quite obvious Im not worried about my own texts, Ive been standing on your thread this whole time.

So do it.

Lets see how "The Porter" works.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 12:25 am

Cmon it should only take you a few seconds.

No tinkering around now, post them In Situ, Trick.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » January 29th, 2019, 12:55 am

I’m not lying.

This is your ball game… I never asked you to make one single comment on this post. You chose to do it yourself. I’m gonna say just like I said before When you asked or Suggested (However you wanna word it) for me to post your coin flip video, you do it yourself. I don’t want nothing to do with it...

..and never did. I took some photos of some tongs going after a snake because they look cool and it promotes safe handling. Then when questioned about it I told the truth of what really happened.So another Herpers reputation didn’t get smeared. I told the truth in the video. You do what you want. This is your post now

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 1:03 am

You told me you took a screen shot. You said my text bubble was a different color than yours.

Youve realized you made a big mistake fkn with me.

I perceived your sickly threat, and realized what you were trying to do, and now your stuck.

Post the screenshots. Lets all see how ya work.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 1:16 am

I guess you thought I wouldnt mention it, huh?

You're a phony, Porter.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 1:54 am

The conversation, I was led to believe was a private conversation that you suddenly indicated you took "ScreenShots" of, and said you wanted to post publicly.

Because you thought I would give AF more than I actually did. At the time I thought it was ridiculous, we both know that NO ONE wants to read our texts FFS.

Then I realized how absolutely fkd you really are.

Im glad I got this out. You brought it on yourself.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 2:17 pm

I think this should be put down, to rest for good. Nobody wants to read this stuff.

I just want you to know I didnt realize how important your coin trick was, I really didnt know. I thought you were putting it on.

You should know too Porter, that you have insulted me, in ways you probably will never be aware of. Not just here, but when I have stood and spoke of you. There is a Native story about honoring the Duck, about how insults, dismissals, the misunderstandings of others should be like murky water beading off a feather. I highly recommend connecting with the story of Duck, as I have this morning on a trip to the park. I needed to clear my head and took a day.

I never thought of you as being hurtful to animals. It has been the opposite, as far as I know.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » January 29th, 2019, 4:33 pm

Need to clear up about the "Mystery Person" which you describe as being talked about behind one's back. Yes, I do feel a desire to do that.

I think that in a private conversation, mentioning another person is not an unusual thing. especially if it is in context with the meat of the conversation. The tone of my comment, if read by anyone - even in text, was one of a minor sad feeling, or disappointment. It was quick, and I could have included more, but wisely in retrospect did not. I had said to you of this person that they act like they do not know me now.

The reasons for this I can only guess. But we cant ever know whats really going on in someones head. I cannot help but think though if I were of a more "socially suitable" demographic here, for their taste, it would not be the case. And yes it disappoints. But its not an unusual thing for me here.

I did not wish at the core, to cause this person, out of the blue, embarrassment. I had helped this person in important ways, over a significant period, ways that I hope were absorbed are being satellited in some useful ways.

bgorum · Post by **bgorum** » January 30th, 2019, 1:29 pm

Jimi wrote: ↑
January 9th, 2019, 8:00 am
Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'.

Otherwise, thanks for sharing. Fun looking habitat, shows some of the upside of fire. I also like those weird ensatinas you got there.

cheers

I have to agree. It doesn't matter who did it, or how soft the soil was, snakes at dens and rookeries should not be disturbed. Keep your distance, use a long lens, if you cause snakes to rattle or retreat, you're too close. The well being of the animals has to come first. I'm sure everyone that does this thinks, "Oh this one time isn't going to hurt anything", but how many other people visit this den. How often are the snakes subjected to these small disturbances. I made the mistake in the past of sharing den locations and have seen once productive dens become unproductive after too many and too frequent disturbances by herpers. I'm absolutely convinced those kinds of disturbances have an effect!

RenoBart · Post by **RenoBart** » February 1st, 2019, 2:04 pm

Just seeing this thread now, not sure what all the fuss is about. I do remember this day out in the field with Porter and I do recall hooking one of the smaller snakes out for good photos.

Of course we were careful not to harm or disturb the animals too much, we were probably there photographing for 15-20 minutes or so.

And I agree there is much that can be talked about from an ethical perspective about herping and herpetoculture in general. I personally have a lot personal opinions about keeping and collecting. A long time ago, I used to be a keeper. But over the years I grew to feel it is best to forego keeping of any kind, and I definitely do not condone collecting of any kind either.

That said, I have had a lifelong fascination with animals, and in particular, herps (like most of you I would assume). Nowadays, the only interaction I have with these animals is through field herping and photography. I always do my best to disturb the animals as little as possible. But we need to all be honest here. Field herping, in general, is going to be disturbing to the animals one way or another. Flipping logs and rocks is essentially tearing the roof off your home. Even road cruising and moving animals out of harms way, while for the greater good of the creature, disturbs and stresses it to some degree I'm sure.

I have hung out with a good few herpers over the years, and not one I have met through the forum is 100% hands off. Sure, we would all like to go out and see animals in situ and get close and get good photos, but we need to face the reality of our hobby here. Most, I would say well over 50% of the photos I see on here are staged or at least partially staged.

If there is anyone out there who NEVER touches the animals they encounter, never moves them, never flips rocks or rolls logs, never uses tongs or hooks, then I commend you in your ability to exercise restraint.

I am not trying to create a debate, make myself or anyone else on here look bad, or call anyone out. I am just saying we need to be honest with what we are doing. Hooks are always preferred, sometimes tongs are safer, and sometimes you don't have to move the animal at all, and that is what we all should strive for.

Bart

BillMcGighan · Post by **BillMcGighan** » February 2nd, 2019, 4:27 am

Okay, guys, there is a disconnect on the messages here.
When Jimi said:

Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'

Of course, Porter’s egocentric response/reaction was off mark, which spun this in the wrong direction:
Porter :

I’ve held rattlesnakes of that size several times since I was a kid. Along with all other snakes of course. I would not have done it if I thought there was any chance of it hurting the snake

etc., etc., etc.

I apologize since I thought most herpers, today, understood the issue. I thought it was clear what the negative was about. Jimi, Bill Gorum, and I were not commenting on handling in general.
I’m sure Jimi could not have been clearer.
Bill's guide is on the mark when it comes to dens and rookeries:

snakes at dens and rookeries should not be disturbed. Keep your distance, use a long lens, if you cause snakes to rattle or retreat, you're too close.

No one was saying that “handling” herps while herping was a problem.

The whole act of herping inherently implies often handling animals in reasonable ways, especially when photography is involved. What herper hasn’t picked up a non-venomous animal, held it, inspected it, and marveled at its beauty in color and structure. The tactile feedback to appreciate these animals is important.

Hooking a venomous snake or grabbing a non-venomous by hand while crossing a road, discovered under cover, etc. is an integral part of herping.

The issue is disturbing a den or rookery.

Many older herpers and early researchers have witnessed, first hand, negative effects on den sites by even a small amount of disturbance. Some states even prohibit it in law.

RenoBart · Post by **RenoBart** » February 2nd, 2019, 8:35 am

BillMcGighan, your insight on the subject is much appreciated. I will be sure to be more conscientious and careful not to disturb the den at this site if I ever return in the future.

Thanks,

Bart

Porter · Post by **Porter** » February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm

BillMcGighan wrote: ↑
February 2nd, 2019, 4:27 am
Okay, guys, there is a disconnect on the messages here.
When Jimi said:
Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'

Of course, Porter’s egocentric response/reaction was off mark, which spun this in the wrong direction:
Porter :
I’ve held rattlesnakes of that size several times since I was a kid. Along with all other snakes of course. I would not have done it if I thought there was any chance of it hurting the snake
etc., etc., etc.

I apologize since I thought most herpers, today, understood the issue. I thought it was clear what the negative was about. Jimi, Bill Gorum, and I were not commenting on handling in general.
I’m sure Jimi could not have been clearer.
Bill's guide is on the mark when it comes to dens and rookeries:
snakes at dens and rookeries should not be disturbed. Keep your distance, use a long lens, if you cause snakes to rattle or retreat, you're too close.

No one was saying that “handling” herps while herping was a problem.

The whole act of herping inherently implies often handling animals in reasonable ways, especially when photography is involved. What herper hasn’t picked up a non-venomous animal, held it, inspected it, and marveled at its beauty in color and structure. The tactile feedback to appreciate these animals is important.

Hooking a venomous snake or grabbing a non-venomous by hand while crossing a road, discovered under cover, etc. is an integral part of herping.

The issue is disturbing a den or rookery.

Many older herpers and early researchers have witnessed, first hand, negative effects on den sites by even a small amount of disturbance. Some states even prohibit it in law.

So, What exactly is the crime of nature being committed here…? That the rattlesnakes will leave this nook, and go find another one? Resulting in the outcome that other field Herpers won’t be able to return to this nook and see them...? So, it’s the selfishness of Herpers wanting to see rattlesnakes, is why you guys have such a problem with me pulling out one to photograph it. Or I mean, are the snakes going to dye by finding another nook less exposed and less accessible to humans, Where they are safer from not only humans but animals that could be considered predators, for them to hang out in? I mean, are rattlesnakes decreasing in numbers and hard to find? Is fish and game putting a protection on the species because it’s such a sensitive issue, that I can’t take a photograph of a rattlesnake at this particular nook..?

You know the difference between me and you… You guys return to a nook year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year...Until one year, there’s no more snakes for you to see there. But me, I’m never planning on going back there ever again. And I knew that when I was there. so I took a picture of those rattlesnakes and Went out of my element for one particular individual because I wanted to get up close picture of the little one to remember that one time, that I was at that one nook. Considering it’s the last year I was ever going to do field herping photography.

Thanks for the lesson. I’ll try to be more respectful to field herpers next time

Porter · Post by **Porter** » February 3rd, 2019, 2:35 pm

bgorum · Post by **bgorum** » February 4th, 2019, 2:49 pm

Porter wrote: ↑
February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm
So, What exactly is the crime of nature being committed here…? That the rattlesnakes will leave this nook, and go find another one? Resulting in the outcome that other field Herpers won’t be able to return to this nook and see them...? So, it’s the selfishness of Herpers wanting to see rattlesnakes, is why you guys have such a problem with me pulling out one to photograph it. Or I mean, are the snakes going to dye by finding another nook less exposed and less accessible to humans, Where they are safer from not only humans but animals that could be considered predators, for them to hang out in? I mean, are rattlesnakes decreasing in numbers and hard to find? Is fish and game putting a protection on the species because it’s such a sensitive issue, that I can’t take a photograph of a rattlesnake at this particular nook..?

No, the crime being committed is that these kinds of places are important to the survival of these snakes. If snakes stop using a particular den or rookery, there is no guarantee that another of equal quality(or perhaps another in the same area at all) is available to them. Or maybe they continue to use the den or rookery, but no longer lay out to bask. How do you know that that basking isn't important to them to help speed development of ova. sperm, or fertilized embryos, or perhaps to help eliminate parasites, fungus, etc. picked up while in the den? It is entirely possible that disturbing the snakes at these places could lead to lower survivorship and yes even a decline in local populations..

Porter wrote: ↑
February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm
You know the difference between me and you… You guys return to a nook year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year...Until one year, there’s no more snakes for you to see there. But me, I’m never planning on going back there ever again. And I knew that when I was there. so I took a picture of those rattlesnakes and Went out of my element for one particular individual because I wanted to get up close picture of the little one to remember that one time, that I was at that one nook. Considering it’s the last year I was ever going to do field herping photography.

No Porter, the difference between you and most of the other people here is that we actually are more interested in and care more for the animals than we do our own self aggrandization. Some of us return to the same places year after year, until people like you finds that spot, and that's when there is no longer any snakes to see there.

Porter · Post by **Porter** » February 4th, 2019, 6:12 pm

bgorum wrote: ↑
February 4th, 2019, 2:49 pm

Porter wrote: ↑
February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm
So, What exactly is the crime of nature being committed here…? That the rattlesnakes will leave this nook, and go find another one? Resulting in the outcome that other field Herpers won’t be able to return to this nook and see them...? So, it’s the selfishness of Herpers wanting to see rattlesnakes, is why you guys have such a problem with me pulling out one to photograph it. Or I mean, are the snakes going to dye by finding another nook less exposed and less accessible to humans, Where they are safer from not only humans but animals that could be considered predators, for them to hang out in? I mean, are rattlesnakes decreasing in numbers and hard to find? Is fish and game putting a protection on the species because it’s such a sensitive issue, that I can’t take a photograph of a rattlesnake at this particular nook..?
No, the crime being committed is that these kinds of places are important to the survival of these snakes. If snakes stop using a particular den or rookery, there is no guarantee that another of equal quality(or perhaps another in the same area at all) is available to them. Or maybe they continue to use the den or rookery, but no longer lay out to bask. How do you know that that basking isn't important to them to help speed development of ova. sperm, or fertilized embryos, or perhaps to help eliminate parasites, fungus, etc. picked up while in the den? It is entirely possible that disturbing the snakes at these places could lead to lower survivorship and yes even a decline in local populations..

Porter wrote: ↑
February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pm
You know the difference between me and you… You guys return to a nook year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year...Until one year, there’s no more snakes for you to see there. But me, I’m never planning on going back there ever again. And I knew that when I was there. so I took a picture of those rattlesnakes and Went out of my element for one particular individual because I wanted to get up close picture of the little one to remember that one time, that I was at that one nook. Considering it’s the last year I was ever going to do field herping photography.
No Porter, the difference between you and most of the other people here is that we actually are more interested in and care more for the animals than we do our own self aggrandization. Some of us return to the same places year after year, until people like you finds that spot, and that's when there is no longer any snakes to see there.

$200 dollars says I go back this year, they are still there...

jk

I guess it takes a while for my account deletion to take effact. For some reason (because of cookies?), I’m still seeing photos.

Take care

and thank you