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Moderator: Scott Waters
Jimi wrote:Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'.
Otherwise, thanks for sharing. Fun looking habitat, shows some of the upside of fire. I also like those weird ensatinas you got there.
cheers
ME ME ME ME ME ME!I’ve been doing this forever and I know for a fact that not a single little bone in that delicate little baby was injured. And only did it because I was 100% sure of that. I’ve got a better sense of things like that than average person on things of that nature. I was born with it. Sensitive touch. Natural Geometric Understanding. And a bit more in depth thought process. Again I was just born that way. Grandson of a World War II fighter pilot. It’s in my DNA I guess. Has something to do with how the brain has to maneuver the plane in the air to dodge bullets and how important angles are in relation to natural forces like wind and what not. Again just born in my DNA. I don’t believe that the average human could’ve done that because I know they can’t… There was a certain talent involved. Whether anyone believes it or not. I have a more Percise sensibility of pressure points and all that. It’s like how some people can shoot pool and other people can’t.I’ve seen people grab snacks in front of me in the field that pose more danger to that snake from it being grabbed by that person then what I did with this little snack....I know that for a fact. And I’m sorry
Land that coin trick yet...?BillMcGighan wrote:ME ME ME ME ME ME!I’ve been doing this forever and I know for a fact that not a single little bone in that delicate little baby was injured. And only did it because I was 100% sure of that. I’ve got a better sense of things like that than average person on things of that nature. I was born with it. Sensitive touch. Natural Geometric Understanding. And a bit more in depth thought process. Again I was just born that way. Grandson of a World War II fighter pilot. It’s in my DNA I guess. Has something to do with how the brain has to maneuver the plane in the air to dodge bullets and how important angles are in relation to natural forces like wind and what not. Again just born in my DNA. I don’t believe that the average human could’ve done that because I know they can’t… There was a certain talent involved. Whether anyone believes it or not. I have a more Percise sensibility of pressure points and all that. It’s like how some people can shoot pool and other people can’t.I’ve seen people grab snacks in front of me in the field that pose more danger to that snake from it being grabbed by that person then what I did with this little snack....I know that for a fact. And I’m sorry
The difference between an act of unnecessary stupidity and one of real value is the not the act, but the reason for the act.
Kelly Mc wrote:When I read this stuff, it was late and I asked my partner to get me a quarter out of the tupperware thing we have for loose change, on the kitchen table. I couldnt get up because I had a little tiger lady stretched out over my lap.
After a couple tries, I got it. It was awkward as I dont remember the last time I even called heads or tails on something. I tried again, couldnt get it. I got my phone out as a great urge to post me doing it curled hotly and unwholesomely. The 12 year old tomboy in me, is Alive and Well, but that wasnt the operative. I did it again after many tries, but couldnt get it when i tried to video it.
Most of my own accomplishments that have been meaningful to me, and that I will always remember, have been animal associated. Actually - all of them. At least the ones that gave my sternum a deep inner glow. But none of them I have documented with a camera.
What irked me about your post, is it is like a trap, in response and to prevent critical review.
The notion that If there is No Photo, it didnt Happen, can become malignant. Something is lost when the ego gets in front of the spirit of our stories.
If a surgeon didnt learn the coin trick, should he turn in his license? Of course not. Coins and momentum dont relate to living tissue.
This was wrong, and I know it doesnt satisfy or bring you peace about your post to have made such a move.
Well like I said, I’ve never seen anyone do it because I invented it. It’s just a stupid little exercise for my mind that I do when I got bored. I don’t really want it around or brag about it. But there’s been a couple times I did challenge someone to see if they could do it just out of pure random Ness. I probably started doing it while we were at the gas station or something in they tried it and couldn’t do it. But I think it displays hey certain ability to handle things with delicate care. And that’s why I posted the videoKelly Mc wrote:Youve got to be kidding that you're the only person youve ever seen do that.
It wasnt that hard, and I had a cat milling around me while I did it.
But most telling, Porter is you are ignoring the actual content of the post.
You’ve got the rest of your life to learn how to do it. You don’t have to post a video tonight. Just keep working on it till you get itKelly Mc wrote:I cant believe I'm actually considering trying to do it again. And that Im pissed off.
This feeling, that I am having right now is of the same taxon that causes people to get turned off to peoples input.
It has the sharp aroma of defensiveness, and comes from a broken place.
Bill was right in what he said and it goes across board, myself included. The people who are most respected around here, seem to have less "I"s and "Me"s in their presentations.
It isnt jealousy Porter, its that.
Im sorry if you think of that as a unique invention, Porter. People have been flipping quarters for as long as theyve been minted. Some people even make them disappear.Porter wrote:Well like I said, I’ve never seen anyone do it because I invented it. It’s just a stupid little exercise for my mind that I do when I got bored. I don’t really want it around or brag about it. But there’s been a couple times I did challenge someone to see if they could do it just out of pure random Ness. I probably started doing it while we were at the gas station or something in they tried it and couldn’t do it. But I think it displays hey certain ability to handle things with delicate care. And that’s why I posted the videoKelly Mc wrote:Youve got to be kidding that you're the only person youve ever seen do that.
It wasnt that hard, and I had a cat milling around me while I did it.
But most telling, Porter is you are ignoring the actual content of the post.
Kelly Mc wrote: ↑January 10th, 2019, 11:38 amWhen I read this stuff, it was late and I asked my partner to get me a quarter out of the tupperware thing we have for loose change, on the kitchen table. I couldnt get up because I had a little tiger lady stretched out over my lap.
After a couple tries, I got it. It was awkward as I dont remember the last time I even called heads or tails on something. I tried again, couldnt get it. I got my phone out as a great urge to post me doing it curled hotly and unwholesomely. The 12 year old tomboy in me, is Alive and Well, but that wasnt the operative. I did it again after many tries, but couldnt get it when i tried to video it.
Most of my own accomplishments that have been meaningful to me, and that I will always remember, have been animal associated. Actually - all of them. At least the ones that gave my sternum a deep inner glow. But none of them I have documented with a camera.
What irked me about your post, is it is like a trap, in response and to prevent critical review.
The notion that If there is No Photo, it didnt Happen, can become malignant. Something is lost when the ego gets in front of the spirit of our stories.
If a surgeon didnt learn the coin trick, should he turn in his license? Of course not. Coins and momentum dont relate to living tissue.
This was wrong, and I know it doesnt satisfy or bring you peace about your post to have made such a move.
I was never trying to win anything... only to show that I didn't harm that snake and wouldn't. Certain people over the years (10 years...) seemed to have had a hard time believing in that concept. So, I spent time trying to understand why. I came to the conclusion that they see me as they see themselves. Incapable of such a thing. Then, I dug deeper and realized I'm more skilled with my hands from DNA and refining those talents through art and other things. I was forced to believe, I'm the exception... and I'm sorry that I'm not on their level. I'm more ashamed to have lost their friendships than I am proud of my small home in Dagobah
Let me remind you of EVERYTHING you wrote on this post...not gonna quote it. Everything you wrote was in attempt to discredit me in some way. Mostly about the coin flip. Forgive me if I don't sympathize in your loss. Leaving you angry and bitter. But in all honesty, your comment was truely the funniest thing I've ever read on social media in all of the 10 yrs
Kelly Mc wrote: ↑January 28th, 2019, 7:52 pmWith all the copious text about me, and my doing your trick wrong, and all the dramatic introspection about you not budging, I see you left out entirely that I sent you the video first.
We had a conversation. I was candid with you about my discomfort about implying (quite elaborately when one reads it the thread again, as i just have) that I lied about doing a coin trick, and told you about my own occasional sense of "message board" estrangement, and shared some disappointments.
It was then you bizarrely told me you would like to post our conversation - but that you would "leave out" those things. You repeated what you deemed "sensitive" items I shared, TWICE. And how you would " leave them out." They were nothing outrageous, but certainly awkward. I guess you thought they would invite criticism. You may be right, but the sleazy layer of how you treated my trust that we were having a real conversation, a friendly one, was made creepily clear.
It was at that moment I realized it was TIME TO GET OUT OF THE CAR.
You operate in some twisted sister ways brah.
I have to agree. It doesn't matter who did it, or how soft the soil was, snakes at dens and rookeries should not be disturbed. Keep your distance, use a long lens, if you cause snakes to rattle or retreat, you're too close. The well being of the animals has to come first. I'm sure everyone that does this thinks, "Oh this one time isn't going to hurt anything", but how many other people visit this den. How often are the snakes subjected to these small disturbances. I made the mistake in the past of sharing den locations and have seen once productive dens become unproductive after too many and too frequent disturbances by herpers. I'm absolutely convinced those kinds of disturbances have an effect!Jimi wrote: ↑January 9th, 2019, 8:00 amAww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'.
Otherwise, thanks for sharing. Fun looking habitat, shows some of the upside of fire. I also like those weird ensatinas you got there.
cheers
Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'
etc., etc., etc.I’ve held rattlesnakes of that size several times since I was a kid. Along with all other snakes of course. I would not have done it if I thought there was any chance of it hurting the snake
snakes at dens and rookeries should not be disturbed. Keep your distance, use a long lens, if you cause snakes to rattle or retreat, you're too close.
So, What exactly is the crime of nature being committed here…? That the rattlesnakes will leave this nook, and go find another one? Resulting in the outcome that other field Herpers won’t be able to return to this nook and see them...? So, it’s the selfishness of Herpers wanting to see rattlesnakes, is why you guys have such a problem with me pulling out one to photograph it. Or I mean, are the snakes going to dye by finding another nook less exposed and less accessible to humans, Where they are safer from not only humans but animals that could be considered predators, for them to hang out in? I mean, are rattlesnakes decreasing in numbers and hard to find? Is fish and game putting a protection on the species because it’s such a sensitive issue, that I can’t take a photograph of a rattlesnake at this particular nook..?BillMcGighan wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2019, 4:27 amOkay, guys, there is a disconnect on the messages here.
When Jimi said:Aww man, I was fully on-board until the tongs made their appearance at a den/rookery. Bit o' bummer. Not hating, just a little bummin'
Of course, Porter’s egocentric response/reaction was off mark, which spun this in the wrong direction:
Porter :etc., etc., etc.I’ve held rattlesnakes of that size several times since I was a kid. Along with all other snakes of course. I would not have done it if I thought there was any chance of it hurting the snake
I apologize since I thought most herpers, today, understood the issue. I thought it was clear what the negative was about. Jimi, Bill Gorum, and I were not commenting on handling in general.
I’m sure Jimi could not have been clearer.
Bill's guide is on the mark when it comes to dens and rookeries:snakes at dens and rookeries should not be disturbed. Keep your distance, use a long lens, if you cause snakes to rattle or retreat, you're too close.
No one was saying that “handling” herps while herping was a problem.
The whole act of herping inherently implies often handling animals in reasonable ways, especially when photography is involved. What herper hasn’t picked up a non-venomous animal, held it, inspected it, and marveled at its beauty in color and structure. The tactile feedback to appreciate these animals is important.
Hooking a venomous snake or grabbing a non-venomous by hand while crossing a road, discovered under cover, etc. is an integral part of herping.
The issue is disturbing a den or rookery.
Many older herpers and early researchers have witnessed, first hand, negative effects on den sites by even a small amount of disturbance. Some states even prohibit it in law.
No, the crime being committed is that these kinds of places are important to the survival of these snakes. If snakes stop using a particular den or rookery, there is no guarantee that another of equal quality(or perhaps another in the same area at all) is available to them. Or maybe they continue to use the den or rookery, but no longer lay out to bask. How do you know that that basking isn't important to them to help speed development of ova. sperm, or fertilized embryos, or perhaps to help eliminate parasites, fungus, etc. picked up while in the den? It is entirely possible that disturbing the snakes at these places could lead to lower survivorship and yes even a decline in local populations..Porter wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pmSo, What exactly is the crime of nature being committed here…? That the rattlesnakes will leave this nook, and go find another one? Resulting in the outcome that other field Herpers won’t be able to return to this nook and see them...? So, it’s the selfishness of Herpers wanting to see rattlesnakes, is why you guys have such a problem with me pulling out one to photograph it. Or I mean, are the snakes going to dye by finding another nook less exposed and less accessible to humans, Where they are safer from not only humans but animals that could be considered predators, for them to hang out in? I mean, are rattlesnakes decreasing in numbers and hard to find? Is fish and game putting a protection on the species because it’s such a sensitive issue, that I can’t take a photograph of a rattlesnake at this particular nook..?
No Porter, the difference between you and most of the other people here is that we actually are more interested in and care more for the animals than we do our own self aggrandization. Some of us return to the same places year after year, until people like you finds that spot, and that's when there is no longer any snakes to see there.Porter wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pmYou know the difference between me and you… You guys return to a nook year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year...Until one year, there’s no more snakes for you to see there. But me, I’m never planning on going back there ever again. And I knew that when I was there. so I took a picture of those rattlesnakes and Went out of my element for one particular individual because I wanted to get up close picture of the little one to remember that one time, that I was at that one nook. Considering it’s the last year I was ever going to do field herping photography.
$200 dollars says I go back this year, they are still there...bgorum wrote: ↑February 4th, 2019, 2:49 pmNo, the crime being committed is that these kinds of places are important to the survival of these snakes. If snakes stop using a particular den or rookery, there is no guarantee that another of equal quality(or perhaps another in the same area at all) is available to them. Or maybe they continue to use the den or rookery, but no longer lay out to bask. How do you know that that basking isn't important to them to help speed development of ova. sperm, or fertilized embryos, or perhaps to help eliminate parasites, fungus, etc. picked up while in the den? It is entirely possible that disturbing the snakes at these places could lead to lower survivorship and yes even a decline in local populations..Porter wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pmSo, What exactly is the crime of nature being committed here…? That the rattlesnakes will leave this nook, and go find another one? Resulting in the outcome that other field Herpers won’t be able to return to this nook and see them...? So, it’s the selfishness of Herpers wanting to see rattlesnakes, is why you guys have such a problem with me pulling out one to photograph it. Or I mean, are the snakes going to dye by finding another nook less exposed and less accessible to humans, Where they are safer from not only humans but animals that could be considered predators, for them to hang out in? I mean, are rattlesnakes decreasing in numbers and hard to find? Is fish and game putting a protection on the species because it’s such a sensitive issue, that I can’t take a photograph of a rattlesnake at this particular nook..?
No Porter, the difference between you and most of the other people here is that we actually are more interested in and care more for the animals than we do our own self aggrandization. Some of us return to the same places year after year, until people like you finds that spot, and that's when there is no longer any snakes to see there.Porter wrote: ↑February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 pmYou know the difference between me and you… You guys return to a nook year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year...Until one year, there’s no more snakes for you to see there. But me, I’m never planning on going back there ever again. And I knew that when I was there. so I took a picture of those rattlesnakes and Went out of my element for one particular individual because I wanted to get up close picture of the little one to remember that one time, that I was at that one nook. Considering it’s the last year I was ever going to do field herping photography.