Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
ChadKS
Posts: 4
Joined: December 5th, 2018, 10:09 am

Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by ChadKS »

Hello Folks. Here are some milks from the midwest.

floodplain milks from SE AR, syspila x amaura.
Image

SE AR
Image

SE Illinois
Image

NE KS
Image

W KS
Image

NW MO
Image

NW MO
Image

SW Illinois
Image

SE MO
Image

W KS
Image

SE Illinois
Image

SW Illinois
Image

SW Illinois
Image

SW Illinois
Image

S Illinois
Image

S Illinois
Image

NW Kentucky
Image

NW Kentucky
Image

C Kentucky
Image

N AZ
Image

SE MO
Image
Image

S Illinois
Image

S Illinois
Image

C MO
Image

S Illinois
Image

S Illinois hypo
Image
Image
Image

SE MO
Image

S Illinois
Image

NW MO
Image

C MO
Image

W KS
Image

W KS
Image

NW MO
Image

Wyoming
Image

Wyoming
Image

E KS
Image

S Illinois
Image

E KS
Image

S Illinois
Image

S Illinois
Image


Image

C MO
Image

NW MO
Image

Iowa
Image

SE OK
Image

SE AR
Image

E KS
Image

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 687
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Scott Waters »

Bro….very nice. Way to light up the ol’ FHF!

Scott

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4470
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Stunners All.

hcarlton
Posts: 12
Joined: August 22nd, 2021, 5:12 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by hcarlton »

Having only found one in the wild so far...I need to bump up my numbers clearly.
Stuck staring at that one piebald(? not really the right term but not sure what fits) one from western Kansas; that has got to be the coolest milk I've ever seen a photo of, and I'm dying now to try and figure out what the genetics or environmental effects are behind making that.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2215
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

hcarlton wrote:
September 12th, 2021, 10:01 pm
Stuck staring at that one piebald(? not really the right term but not sure what fits) one from western Kansas; that has got to be the coolest milk I've ever seen a photo of, and I'm dying now to try and figure out what the genetics or environmental effects are behind making that.
Hybrid 🦏

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4470
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Its an allele blip.

Pattern/color anomaly can happen in any pigmented animal. But seems to be most common in animals prone to "locality" or individual variability.

Because human beings are so visually oriented and even extend values on visual differences we tend to put inordinate focus on them inmo.

Someone fluent in the card deck of milk mutations could explain the probable recessive outcomes responsible.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2215
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

🗺

ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2215
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

OK so here’s my reasoning… It’s based mostly off of the other individuals found in W Kansas. I’m assuming they’re from the same locale, or close to it. They are the only milk snakes that have a lateral fade on the side of their bodies. Which is a trait of the longnose. Even the piebald individual has this fading. In the other photos, those individuals also have this bizarre unique patterning. Which is usually influenced by hybridIzation (like in trout/fish) they have similar markings as rhino and their snouts look more slender to My eye. I think it is the influence of 🦏 🧬

I have spoken… ✋🏻 Like Nick Nolte. The ugnaught 💁🏻‍♂️

EB90721E-B18A-4255-93B1-C5F00BBFED5C.jpeg

ChadKS
Posts: 4
Joined: December 5th, 2018, 10:09 am

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by ChadKS »

Porter wrote:
September 15th, 2021, 10:13 pm
OK so here’s my reasoning… It’s based mostly off of the other individuals found in W Kansas. I’m assuming they’re from the same locale, or close to it. They are the only milk snakes that have a lateral fade on the side of their bodies. Which is a trait of the longnose. Even the piebald individual has this fading. In the other photos, those individuals also have this bizarre unique patterning. Which is usually influenced by hybridIzation (like in trout/fish) they have similar markings as rhino and their snouts look more slender to My eye. I think it is the influence of 🦏 🧬

I have spoken… ✋🏻 Like Nick Nolte. The ugnaught 💁🏻‍♂️


EB90721E-B18A-4255-93B1-C5F00BBFED5C.jpeg
I get your reasoning and commend you for putting thought into it. However, these snakes definitely are not hybrids and that's certain. Not only do these specific milks come from a geographic area that isn't shared by longnoses, but they just do not hybridize anywhere where the two types do occur sympatrically. If you have an example I would be incredibly stoked to see it. Both are fairly conspicuous creatures for herpers and yet a hybrid has never been presented or documented, at least to my geeky milk snake knowledge. Thanks for the interesting topic.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2215
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

Oh have those individuals been tail-clipped and analyzed already? I was under the impression that longnose Were up for consideration to be put on a threatened list for Kansas at one time… maybe it was just some thing I miss read. Are you saying that there are no longnose upstream from where you found your individuals? Also, is there documentation saying they did not exist there in the 1800s?

In northern California, there is only one locale where you can find hybrid kingsnake x gopher snake. However, you can find kingsnakes and gopher snakes existing together throughout the state. They’ve only chosen to hybridize at this one specific locale though. For whatever reason. So just because the two exist in other areas doesn’t necessarily mean that the individuals in your photos aren’t of both DNA.

User avatar
Jeff
Posts: 574
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 5:01 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Jeff »

Chad
The tricolorgasm hit me about halfway through, so I left the post to finish on its own.
My only trip to E Kansas was to the Flint Hills with Tom Sinclair. We found 15 milks in 48 hours, and despite the great variation, I was milk-satiated. Here in S Louisiana my best day is 3, and 2 milk-days are infrequent.
There seems to be a lower Midwest form that would be syspila, which includes most of your photos from E KS to W KY and Iowa south into Arkansas. What got my attention was how very different the western snakes were from the 'syspila' bunch. In fact, the N AZ snake could almost pass for a zonata.
Yours is a classic presentation of how variation within a subspecies can eclipse defined differences between subspecies.
As Scott said, great to see a FHF revival.

Porter
Cal Kings/gopher hybrids? Did I miss a post on these, or, do you have photos?

Jeff

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2215
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

Jeff wrote:
September 16th, 2021, 3:53 pm

Porter
Cal Kings/gopher hybrids? Did I miss a post on these, or, do you have photos?

Jeff
🤐

ChadKS
Posts: 4
Joined: December 5th, 2018, 10:09 am

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by ChadKS »

Jeff wrote:
September 16th, 2021, 3:53 pm
Chad
The tricolorgasm hit me about halfway through, so I left the post to finish on its own.
My only trip to E Kansas was to the Flint Hills with Tom Sinclair. We found 15 milks in 48 hours, and despite the great variation, I was milk-satiated. Here in S Louisiana my best day is 3, and 2 milk-days are infrequent.
There seems to be a lower Midwest form that would be syspila, which includes most of your photos from E KS to W KY and Iowa south into Arkansas. What got my attention was how very different the western snakes were from the 'syspila' bunch. In fact, the N AZ snake could almost pass for a zonata.
Yours is a classic presentation of how variation within a subspecies can eclipse defined differences between subspecies.
As Scott said, great to see a FHF revival.

Porter
Cal Kings/gopher hybrids? Did I miss a post on these, or, do you have photos?

Jeff
Great to hear from you, it's almost like the old days here on FHF.

I do agree with you re: the sharp differences between L t. gentilis and L. t. triangulum "syspila" in the Midwest. I love living in KS where I've had my own laboratory to note these morphological differences and geographic subtleties. I think the syspila from east of the Mississippi are often visually different enough from those just west of the river that I can typically guess the locality with accuracy above random chance.

ChadKS
Posts: 4
Joined: December 5th, 2018, 10:09 am

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by ChadKS »

Porter wrote:
September 16th, 2021, 2:44 pm
Oh have those individuals been tail-clipped and analyzed already? I was under the impression that longnose Were up for consideration to be put on a threatened list for Kansas at one time… maybe it was just some thing I miss read. Are you saying that there are no longnose upstream from where you found your individuals? Also, is there documentation saying they did not exist there in the 1800s?

In northern California, there is only one locale where you can find hybrid kingsnake x gopher snake. However, you can find kingsnakes and gopher snakes existing together throughout the state. They’ve only chosen to hybridize at this one specific locale though. For whatever reason. So just because the two exist in other areas doesn’t necessarily mean that the individuals in your photos aren’t of both DNA.
I found either the northernmost or second northernmost longnose in Kansas, not that it's relevant to our discussion, but I have also spent a lot of time herping the area where many of the above western milks came from. I believe longnose snakes are not present above Edwards County, but the Logan County snake found by my friend Curtis Schmidt does negate that belief.

Anyway, I couldn't tell you whether or not tail clips have been collected and analyzed. Why do you ask?

I see no reason to inject the notion that the snakes in my pics are hybrids or descendants of hybrids. What explanatory power does that notion bring to the table? Is it a matter of morphology? The weirdo gentilis with the speckles is just a variation.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2215
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

😐
ChadKS wrote:
September 17th, 2021, 11:26 am
I see no reason to inject the notion that the snakes in my pics are hybrids or descendants of hybrids. What explanatory power does that notion bring to the table? Is it a matter of morphology? The weirdo gentilis with the speckles is just a variation.
The other guy asked why the piebald was piebald… So I told him lol
ChadKS wrote:
September 17th, 2021, 11:26 am
[
I found either the northernmost or second northernmost longnose in Kansas, not that it's relevant to our discussion, but I have also spent a lot of time herping the area where many of the above western milks came from. I believe longnose snakes are not present above Edwards County, but the Logan County snake found by my friend Curtis Schmidt does negate that belief.

Anyway, I couldn't tell you whether or not tail clips have been collected and analyzed. Why do you ask?
OK, I’m gonna keep this as simple as possible so forgive me for leaving out any specifics. Let’s just go back to the year 1800. I’m sure we can all agree that the snakes were at least they’re 50 years before being discovered.
B96D979A-F4F0-4FF3-876B-2F9130E46A22.jpeg
First you must be familiar with a Mandel theory. So here’s a video for people who are not familiar with it:




Next lets remind ourselves why herpetologist analyze tail clippings. They do it to determine whether or not A snake is a hybrid, different species, whether or not it’s a southern Pacific pond turtle or Northern Pacific Pond turtle, etc… only by looking at the DNA within the tail clipping, can you determine whether or not your milkshake is a hybridization with the longnose… in theory. Then we musk ask, when did we have the ability to do DNA testing:
E3AA7CE1-02D2-49A7-9140-FAC10CA16D53.jpeg


Now, let’s say the first time a longnose Snake mated a milk was 1800. Even though, and intelligent mind would consider that it happened much much much longer before that. Now according to the Mandel Theory, that long nose snake trait of lateral pattern fading on the side, would have gotten passed down through generations, every spring, since the year of 1800.

The first milk snake DNA was analyzed, at the very soonest in the year of1984… which an intelligent mind might assume, that when we came up with the ability to DNA test things, we didn’t go running to milk snakes. But to keep it simple let’s just say it was 1984.

This would mean, that the first milk snake ever tested under tail clipping DNA measures, contained the DNA of the longnose, of which it’s great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandpappy got shaken with back in 1800. So even if you were to analyze the tail clipping of your snakes…. And it came back 100% milksnake…That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not containing longnose DNA. It only means that the scientists think that specific Genetic coding of DNA is that of a milk snake, based on the visual appearance of the milk snake they analyzed back in 1984. Which very well could have been just a brother or sister hybrid that was not displaying longnose characteristics, visually.


D1ACB582-A632-4F6C-BADC-11308F3ACDFE.jpeg
952DEF1B-27E5-4CBF-AB58-55F05E7EF44B.jpeg

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4470
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Piebalding is a mutation in genes that causes melanin to be distributed weird.

It isnt a sign of being hybridized as far as i know.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2215
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

Kelly Mc wrote:
September 18th, 2021, 5:27 am
Piebalding is a mutation in genes that causes melanin to be distributed weird.

It isnt a sign of being hybridized as far as i know.
I agree. One of the most commonly known snakes in the pet trade for its pie baldness, would have to be the ball python. And I wouldn’t suggest that those are hybrids. However, I think there are plenty of hybridized ball pythons in the pet trade… so, whether or not pie baldness originally Resulted from one of those crossbreeding’s, is some thing a breeder would have to answer. I’ve never had an interest in breeding reptiles so I wouldn’t know. But I’d say it’s a possible freakish outcome… And one that might want to be kept secret to a money driven pet breeder

Like the guy who likes the piebald milksnake pointed out, it’s not piebald. It’s just got some freakish lack of pigmentation. Again, the evidence that it’s a result of 🦏 🧬 is the pattern fading on the sides.
And just the simple fact that, how could any field Herper look at all the individuals posted from WKS, and not immediately think the thought in their mind… “That one looks like a longnose!” :lol:
Especially in comparison to the other individuals
hcarlton wrote:
September 12th, 2021, 10:01 pm
Having only found one in the wild so far...I need to bump up my numbers clearly.
Stuck staring at that one piebald(? not really the right term but not sure what fits) one from western Kansas; that has got to be the coolest milk I've ever seen a photo of, and I'm dying now to try and figure out what the genetics or environmental effects are behind making that.
459E135B-15B6-481D-A2CA-26B29AA6B6CA.jpeg

hcarlton
Posts: 12
Joined: August 22nd, 2021, 5:12 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by hcarlton »

Beyond wishful thinking, there's no signals of hybridization here, and "lateral fading" in milks is definitely not automatically some old trait passed down from longnoses. Pics are shared fairly frequently from the region where I live of milks that have lighter sides than dorsal patterning (hell the one I found showed a bit of that), and the nearest longnose to me is a 5 hour drive almost straight south (several hundred miles across a very distinct climatic gradient). And no, there aren't a bunch of hybrid pythons being intermixed in the trade, nor are just about any of the morphs seen in them the result of such; herpetoculture tends to be really, really touchy about hybrids period, and most big breeders of the major species represented won't even think of such a thing beyond a quick side project. Those who do work with hybrids tend to be really touchy about keeping records on such as well. The snake is cool, and I would love to know the actual factors behind the appearance (from a thesis I did a few years ago I know environmental incubation conditions could play a major role in this, never mind just genes), but the likelihood of it being because HYBRIDS is minuscule at best.
In my other major hobby (plants), hybridization is a huge thing and examining inheritance of traits is a major factor in trying to pick up characteristics that we want in crosses; understanding that a single species can be ridiculously variable and that hybridization past the 5th or 6th generation of backcrossing is basically a non-acknowledgeable thing unless you do sweeping genetic tests (and even then the signal is probably not going to show up most of the time)

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4470
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Kelly Mc »

There was a pretty vigorous craze that is hopefully dwindling, not sure but not as in ones face as before, where temps were deliberately manipulated to create piebalding and other variants. But the temp incited the gene deviation, as its all in the genes.

hcarlton
Posts: 12
Joined: August 22nd, 2021, 5:12 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by hcarlton »

In that case, no it's not in the genes themselves. It's in the epigenetic regulators, the environment altering enzymatic ability to turn on and off controls for pigments and impacting methylation patterns that lock and unlock the ability to read genes. If it were genetic alteration the offspring of said animals in the next or subsequent generations would display similar traits even without altering incubation conditions, but they instead typically revert to normal pigmentation patterns.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4470
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Got it. Ive not explored it too deeply.
I just hate herp crazes.

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 687
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Scott Waters »

Porter wrote:
September 16th, 2021, 2:44 pm
Oh have those individuals been tail-clipped and analyzed already? I was under the impression that longnose Were up for consideration to be put on a threatened list for Kansas at one time… maybe it was just some thing I miss read. Are you saying that there are no longnose upstream from where you found your individuals? Also, is there documentation saying they did not exist there in the 1800s?

In northern California, there is only one locale where you can find hybrid kingsnake x gopher snake. However, you can find kingsnakes and gopher snakes existing together throughout the state. They’ve only chosen to hybridize at this one specific locale though. For whatever reason. So just because the two exist in other areas doesn’t necessarily mean that the individuals in your photos aren’t of both DNA.
Are talking about the one “king-gopher hybrid” found near Davis many years ago? Chad……if I recall it was said to have been found along a heavily herped stretch near Davis. I saw pics of it, believe it was posted here but I can’t remember now. I only know of that one instance.

Porter… have more of those been reported and I’ve missed it?

Post Reply