Snake headscale diagram request?

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

I’ve got an odd request…Well, maybe it’s not that odd. However, maybe I’m odd for asking 🤷🏻‍♂️ Where can I find a complete diagram, top View, bottom View, sideview of the species:

California glossy snake
California kingsnake
California Mountain kingsnake
Pacific gopher snake
Longnose Snake

Milk snake
Eastern kingsnake

Are there complete diagrams of their head scales accessible somewhere? Is there anyone out there so amazingly awesome to post those here..?!? :D

Purpose being, I would like to compare them, between each other, to the head scales of a kingsnake x gopher snake hybrid

Richard F. Hoyer
Posts: 618
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:14 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

For snake head scale information, try the Sebbin's 'Western Reptiles and Amphibian Field Guide'. A diagrram of snake head scalation is just inside the back cover.

Richard F. Hoyer

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Thanks for the reminder, Richard! :thumb: I do have a copy of that field guide. I’ll have to dig it up and take a look at it.. If I remember correctly, there’s just one diagram that is there to display the names of the scales…? And it looks something like this, that I just found from Googling, “Stebbins Snake headscale diagram…” which may be A reconstruction of the actual diagram in the book:

EC3760CC-4DBB-4090-A8D7-AE56C56613F5.png
FAC10B98-F6D3-4360-84B9-B98A56CC0C23.jpeg
FAC10B98-F6D3-4360-84B9-B98A56CC0C23.jpeg (65.73 KiB) Viewed 471 times


What I’m looking for is a diagram for each of the snake Genius listed: Arizona, Lampropeltis getula & zonata, Pituophis, Rhinocheilus, etc… I actually have photographs of all of those snakes. But at the time, I was only focused on getting an artistic shot of them. So, not all of them have a good angle view of their head scale’s sizes/proportions/position/quantity/etc.. And I would only have a Sideview at very best.

I want something that has actual perfect proportions! Including the size of the eyes and how much they bulge from a top view/Birdseye view.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

So, let me explain where I’m trying to go with this… I made this comment on Chad’s milk snake post in regards to one of his locales of awesome looking milks, Possibly being a result of hybridization:
Porter wrote:
October 14th, 2021, 11:02 pm

Now, let’s say the first time a longnose Snake mated a milk was 1800. Even though, and intelligent mind would consider that it happened much much much longer before that. Now according to the Mandel Theory, that long nose snake trait of lateral pattern fading on the side, would have gotten passed down through generations, every spring, since the year of 1800.

The first milk snake DNA was analyzed, at the very soonest in the year of1984… which an intelligent mind might assume, that when we came up with the ability to DNA test things, we didn’t go running to milk snakes. But to keep it simple let’s just say it was 1984.

This would mean, that the first milk snake ever tested under tail clipping DNA measures, contained the DNA of the longnose, of which it’s great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandpappy got shaken with back in 1800. So even if you were to analyze the tail clipping of your snakes…. And it came back 100% milksnake…That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not containing longnose DNA. It only means that the scientists think that specific Genetic coding of DNA is that of a milk snake, based on the visual appearance of the milk snake they analyzed back in 1984. Which very well could have been just a brother or sister hybrid that was not displaying longnose characteristics, visually.


Recently, I was examining the head scale pattern of this kingsnake x gopher snake hybrid.I was comparing the scale sizes and quantities to both a gopher snake and a California kingsnake. Which, was fairly difficult due to the dark colors and patterns that crossover multiple scales. Keeping the Mandel Theory of recessive and dominant traits in mind, It seemed to me that some of the scales resembled that of California kingsnake, where others were more similar to gopher snake. This would mean that some scales on the head are recessive traits, where others are dominant…Assuming that neither of this individual’s parents were hybrid.

F8F6D9BB-25E6-47CA-8DD4-0EB90DAAE130.jpeg
F8F6D9BB-25E6-47CA-8DD4-0EB90DAAE130.jpeg (81.07 KiB) Viewed 458 times

I want to compare headscale of all the genius I listed to determine for myself, the possibility of one or more of those genus, beginning as the result of hybridization between two other genus from the list.

It would be much easier to have diagrams of each genus, similar to Stebbins diagram. Black & white, colorless, with accurate proportions.

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Also…
Porter wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 1:09 am
Are there any normal looking Ball Pythons produced in ratio of a hybrid love conection...?
Does anyone have an answer to this question? When breeding a hybrid to a normal looking parent genus in captivity, do any of the children come out looking “normal” like one of the original “normal” parents…. In either the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations? Does anyone know if Brian Hinds father’s hybrid was successfully bred and what the outcome was?
Were there any normal looking California king snakes or gophersnakes in following generations… or did they all come out looking like a hybrid mesh variation, similar to the hybrid Parent?

As far as Chad’s rhino hybrid… I think everyone would be expecting to see a rhino nose on that snake. However, if that scale trait is recessive (which seems to be likely true considering all other genus in the US, don’t have that funny nose) then it would be dominantly absent in a hybridization between Lampropeltis & Rhinocheilus

User avatar
Jeff
Posts: 584
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 5:01 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Jeff »

Porter
Exact, proportional drawings of head scales of all U.S. snake genera plus many species in each are in the introduction to Wright & Wright (1957) Handbook of Snakes of the United States and Canada.
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Snakes- ... oks&sr=1-4

Jeff

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Jeff wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 3:09 pm
Porter
Exact, proportional drawings of head scales of all U.S. snake genera plus many species in each are in the introduction to Wright & Wright (1957) Handbook of Snakes of the United States and Canada.
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Snakes- ... oks&sr=1-4

Jeff
Thanks for that Jeff! :thumb: Do you already own this?
Any chance you could post a display picture of one of the species? So I can see what I’ll be buying…

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

I just took a look at the old Stebbins guide. Here is the picture that Mr. Hoyer was referring to. Also, I couldn’t help but notice this interesting similarity between the snouts of a milk snake and longnose…


06CCDFA7-C28B-4B77-865C-E9EBDDEECBC1.jpeg
ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Is there an evolutionary tree of Colubrids somewhere..? Has it already been established that ALL Milksnake are hybrids? This is the best I could find when I googled, "snake tree of evolution." I'd like to see a tree that includes the genera I mentioned, if there is one... Even one that included garters, racers, and whipsnakes. Heck, all of California would be interesting! But for now, just the CA king, CA mountain king, Longnose, Glossy, and Gopher.

A1DE1700-F264-481C-BFD8-7DD43BD07187.png

User avatar
Jeff
Posts: 584
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 5:01 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Jeff »

Porter
A sample from Wright and Wright --
Image

Here is a link to a paper on Lampropeltini phylogeny: https://sierraherps.com/wp-content/uplo ... _2009a.pdf

Jeff
Attachments
Scan_0003.jpg

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Jeff wrote:
October 18th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Porter
A sample from Wright and Wright --
Image

Here is a link to a paper on Lampropeltini phylogeny: https://sierraherps.com/wp-content/uplo ... _2009a.pdf

Jeff
🤦🏻‍♂️

Geez Louise! 😳 Am I having an acid flashback or Were those drawings done from preserved Deteriorated jar specimens..??

It’s just as I feared… Our greatest fears have come true. I’m going to have to draw my own damn diagrams 😑

Thank you for posting that Jeff! :beer: i’ll check out that link when I get a chance

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Porter wrote:
October 18th, 2021, 5:38 pm


🤦🏻‍♂️

Geez Louise! 😳 Am I having an acid flashback or Were those drawings done from preserved Deteriorated jar specimens..??

It’s just as I feared… Our greatest fears have come true. I’m going to have to draw my own damn diagrams 😑

Thank you for posting that Jeff! :beer: i’ll check out that link when I get a chance
Alright… i’m already getting that feeling. Like what seems obvious in my mind, is not going to be applied to my words, and that I possibly could be hurting someone’s feelings unintentionally (and I need to delete my comment leaving nothing but a speck of dust in its place) 😬😑🤯

• These words should be appreciated in regards to nothing less than humorous witty banter

• The Wrights wrote this book with far more knowledge than I have myself. In no way am I trying to downplay their accomplishments. They had to reference what was available to them in 1950, and covered far more than the US of A. All I’m trying to do here, is fine tune some thing that wasn’t necessary to fine tune… back when they were just trying to get the damn thing tuned 🤷🏻‍♂️

• I don’t even know if I’m right, but I’ll be damned if I don’t give myself a run for my money 🤨👉

• i’m not being disrespectful. It’s easy for me to stumble in and be a non-conformist… considering I never confirmed to begin with 🤷🏻‍♂️ Either way, we’re going to learn something together 🍻

…and that may be some thing you’ve already learned 👀

User avatar
Porter
Posts: 2254
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

And I’m not so much worried about the Wright’s feelings Getting hurt as much as I am aware of the false judgment the Gen Y’s seem to always be accusing me of… :lol: I don’t know Y, but they always treat me like I should be X-ed out 💁🏻‍♂️

Ok, I feel better now that we cleared that up 🤗 🌸

Post Reply