Snake headscale diagram request?

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Porter
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Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

I’ve got an odd request…Well, maybe it’s not that odd. However, maybe I’m odd for asking 🤷🏻‍♂️ Where can I find a complete diagram, top View, bottom View, sideview of the species:

California glossy snake
California kingsnake
California Mountain kingsnake
Pacific gopher snake
Longnose Snake

Milk snake
Eastern kingsnake

Are there complete diagrams of their head scales accessible somewhere? Is there anyone out there so amazingly awesome to post those here..?!? :D

Purpose being, I would like to compare them, between each other, to the head scales of a kingsnake x gopher snake hybrid

Richard F. Hoyer
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

For snake head scale information, try the Sebbin's 'Western Reptiles and Amphibian Field Guide'. A diagrram of snake head scalation is just inside the back cover.

Richard F. Hoyer

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Thanks for the reminder, Richard! :thumb: I do have a copy of that field guide. I’ll have to dig it up and take a look at it.. If I remember correctly, there’s just one diagram that is there to display the names of the scales…? And it looks something like this, that I just found from Googling, “Stebbins Snake headscale diagram…” which may be A reconstruction of the actual diagram in the book:

EC3760CC-4DBB-4090-A8D7-AE56C56613F5.png
FAC10B98-F6D3-4360-84B9-B98A56CC0C23.jpeg
FAC10B98-F6D3-4360-84B9-B98A56CC0C23.jpeg (65.73 KiB) Viewed 990 times


What I’m looking for is a diagram for each of the snake Genius listed: Arizona, Lampropeltis getula & zonata, Pituophis, Rhinocheilus, etc… I actually have photographs of all of those snakes. But at the time, I was only focused on getting an artistic shot of them. So, not all of them have a good angle view of their head scale’s sizes/proportions/position/quantity/etc.. And I would only have a Sideview at very best.

I want something that has actual perfect proportions! Including the size of the eyes and how much they bulge from a top view/Birdseye view.

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

So, let me explain where I’m trying to go with this… I made this comment on Chad’s milk snake post in regards to one of his locales of awesome looking milks, Possibly being a result of hybridization:
Porter wrote:
October 14th, 2021, 11:02 pm

Now, let’s say the first time a longnose Snake mated a milk was 1800. Even though, and intelligent mind would consider that it happened much much much longer before that. Now according to the Mandel Theory, that long nose snake trait of lateral pattern fading on the side, would have gotten passed down through generations, every spring, since the year of 1800.

The first milk snake DNA was analyzed, at the very soonest in the year of1984… which an intelligent mind might assume, that when we came up with the ability to DNA test things, we didn’t go running to milk snakes. But to keep it simple let’s just say it was 1984.

This would mean, that the first milk snake ever tested under tail clipping DNA measures, contained the DNA of the longnose, of which it’s great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandpappy got shaken with back in 1800. So even if you were to analyze the tail clipping of your snakes…. And it came back 100% milksnake…That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not containing longnose DNA. It only means that the scientists think that specific Genetic coding of DNA is that of a milk snake, based on the visual appearance of the milk snake they analyzed back in 1984. Which very well could have been just a brother or sister hybrid that was not displaying longnose characteristics, visually.


Recently, I was examining the head scale pattern of this kingsnake x gopher snake hybrid.I was comparing the scale sizes and quantities to both a gopher snake and a California kingsnake. Which, was fairly difficult due to the dark colors and patterns that crossover multiple scales. Keeping the Mandel Theory of recessive and dominant traits in mind, It seemed to me that some of the scales resembled that of California kingsnake, where others were more similar to gopher snake. This would mean that some scales on the head are recessive traits, where others are dominant…Assuming that neither of this individual’s parents were hybrid.

F8F6D9BB-25E6-47CA-8DD4-0EB90DAAE130.jpeg
F8F6D9BB-25E6-47CA-8DD4-0EB90DAAE130.jpeg (81.07 KiB) Viewed 977 times

I want to compare headscale of all the genius I listed to determine for myself, the possibility of one or more of those genus, beginning as the result of hybridization between two other genus from the list.

It would be much easier to have diagrams of each genus, similar to Stebbins diagram. Black & white, colorless, with accurate proportions.

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Also…
Porter wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 1:09 am
Are there any normal looking Ball Pythons produced in ratio of a hybrid love conection...?
Does anyone have an answer to this question? When breeding a hybrid to a normal looking parent genus in captivity, do any of the children come out looking “normal” like one of the original “normal” parents…. In either the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations? Does anyone know if Brian Hinds father’s hybrid was successfully bred and what the outcome was?
Were there any normal looking California king snakes or gophersnakes in following generations… or did they all come out looking like a hybrid mesh variation, similar to the hybrid Parent?

As far as Chad’s rhino hybrid… I think everyone would be expecting to see a rhino nose on that snake. However, if that scale trait is recessive (which seems to be likely true considering all other genus in the US, don’t have that funny nose) then it would be dominantly absent in a hybridization between Lampropeltis & Rhinocheilus

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Jeff
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Jeff »

Porter
Exact, proportional drawings of head scales of all U.S. snake genera plus many species in each are in the introduction to Wright & Wright (1957) Handbook of Snakes of the United States and Canada.
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Snakes- ... oks&sr=1-4

Jeff

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Jeff wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 3:09 pm
Porter
Exact, proportional drawings of head scales of all U.S. snake genera plus many species in each are in the introduction to Wright & Wright (1957) Handbook of Snakes of the United States and Canada.
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Snakes- ... oks&sr=1-4

Jeff
Thanks for that Jeff! :thumb: Do you already own this?
Any chance you could post a display picture of one of the species? So I can see what I’ll be buying…

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

I just took a look at the old Stebbins guide. Here is the picture that Mr. Hoyer was referring to. Also, I couldn’t help but notice this interesting similarity between the snouts of a milk snake and longnose…


06CCDFA7-C28B-4B77-865C-E9EBDDEECBC1.jpeg
ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Is there an evolutionary tree of Colubrids somewhere..? Has it already been established that ALL Milksnake are hybrids? This is the best I could find when I googled, "snake tree of evolution." I'd like to see a tree that includes the genera I mentioned, if there is one... Even one that included garters, racers, and whipsnakes. Heck, all of California would be interesting! But for now, just the CA king, CA mountain king, Longnose, Glossy, and Gopher.

A1DE1700-F264-481C-BFD8-7DD43BD07187.png

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Jeff
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Jeff »

Porter
A sample from Wright and Wright --
Image

Here is a link to a paper on Lampropeltini phylogeny: https://sierraherps.com/wp-content/uplo ... _2009a.pdf

Jeff
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Jeff wrote:
October 18th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Porter
A sample from Wright and Wright --
F2855526-464A-4D9E-81AE-E2602CB41015.jpeg
F2855526-464A-4D9E-81AE-E2602CB41015.jpeg (74.3 KiB) Viewed 430 times
Here is a link to a paper on Lampropeltini phylogeny: https://sierraherps.com/wp-content/uplo ... _2009a.pdf

Jeff
🤦🏻‍♂️

Geez Louise! 😳 Am I having an acid flashback or Were those drawings done from preserved Deteriorated jar specimens..??

It’s just as I feared… Our greatest fears have come true. I’m going to have to draw my own damn diagrams 😑

Thank you for posting that Jeff! :beer: i’ll check out that link when I get a chance

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Porter wrote:
October 18th, 2021, 5:38 pm


🤦🏻‍♂️

Geez Louise! 😳 Am I having an acid flashback or Were those drawings done from preserved Deteriorated jar specimens..??

It’s just as I feared… Our greatest fears have come true. I’m going to have to draw my own damn diagrams 😑

Thank you for posting that Jeff! :beer: i’ll check out that link when I get a chance
Alright… i’m already getting that feeling. Like what seems obvious in my mind, is not going to be applied to my words, and that I possibly could be hurting someone’s feelings unintentionally (and I need to delete my comment leaving nothing but a speck of dust in its place) 😬😑🤯

• These words should be appreciated in regards to nothing less than humorous witty banter

• The Wrights wrote this book with far more knowledge than I have myself. In no way am I trying to downplay their accomplishments. They had to reference what was available to them in 1950, and covered far more than the US of A. All I’m trying to do here, is fine tune some thing that wasn’t necessary to fine tune… back when they were just trying to get the damn thing tuned 🤷🏻‍♂️

• I don’t even know if I’m right, but I’ll be damned if I don’t give myself a run for my money 🤨👉

• i’m not being disrespectful. It’s easy for me to stumble in and be a non-conformist… considering I never confirmed to begin with 🤷🏻‍♂️ Either way, we’re going to learn something together 🍻

…and that may be some thing you’ve already learned 👀

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

And I’m not so much worried about the Wright’s feelings Getting hurt as much as I am aware of the false judgment the Gen Y’s seem to always be accusing me of… :lol: I don’t know Y, but they always treat me like I should be X-ed out 💁🏻‍♂️

Ok, I feel better now that we cleared that up 🤗 🌸

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

I don’t have time to read Jeff’s paper… Nor do I have time to draw a diagrams…But after sitting here gathering my thoughts on the subject for a good five minutes, something occurred to me:

The Hinds gopher snake x Kingsnake hybrid did not come from a parent gopher snake and parent kingsnake. Neither did the Solano county population. It came from either two kingsnakes or two gopher snakes. Then and only then, does it make sense that Chad‘s milksnake is not a hybrid 🦏… (sigh of relief)

I should be getting paid for this shit…🥱🥳

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »



So, try to follow me on this... black of hair would represent the dominant DNA coding for a normal looking kingsnake ...OR... the dominant DNA coding for a normal looking gopher snake. blonde of hair would represent the ONE recessive child of either two kingsnakes, BOTH carrying the buried combination of compatible recessive traits ...OR... the ONE recessive child of two gopher snakes, BOTH carrying the buried combination of compatible recessive traits 🧬

In other words, the hybrid would be what the snake looked like before the branches split 🌳

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Kelly Mc »

It would seem important to include in this pursuit research into pie balding and perhaps other pigmentation anomaly as it is a strong item of contention in the snake shown.

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Kelly Mc wrote:
November 7th, 2021, 12:34 pm
It would seem important to include in this pursuit research into pie balding and perhaps other pigmentation anomaly as it is a strong item of contention in the snake shown.
What snake shown... The King x Gopher?

You must be referring to the snake (that is not pibald, but lacking pigment) from Chad's milk post. This post was definitely inspired by the discussion that sprung up over there, but it is not about Chad's milk x rhino pibald-ish-ness. It's 90% pure interest in what we call, "hybrids..." 5% about not continuing the convo on Chad's post out of respect for Chad's original post subject (if people want to debate it, they can debate it here. Not on Chads post)... 4% to establish a new understanding of CA snake species... and 1% Rhino x milk. But if anyone is interested in the origin of this post, here's the link for the snakes that sparked it: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25810

However... the one from Chad's post that's missing pigment is the least relevant of Chad's snakes. It was the snake that brought up the question... but not the snake of interest for me. Personally, I think it's a burn victim. The only reason I tied that snake to the rhino x milk hybrid theory was because of the lateral fading. Let me explain...

When I looked at Chad's post, this snake form picture (A) caught my eye (based on it's visual appearance) and I thought immediately, "oh wow... that's a hybrid longnose!" Then I saw snakes (B) and (C) and saw that they were also found in West Kansas (W KS). So, my next thought was, "oh wow... I wonder if they are from the same locale. Look at that nose color markings! ...more friggin hybrids" :shock: 8-) :thumb: :thumb:



Then hcarlton wrote this :
hcarlton wrote:
September 12th, 2021, 10:01 pm
Having only found one in the wild so far...I need to bump up my numbers clearly.
Stuck staring at that one piebald(? not really the right term but not sure what fits) one from western Kansas; that has got to be the coolest milk I've ever seen a photo of, and I'm dying now to try and figure out what the genetics or environmental effects are behind making that.
After reading the hcarlton comment, I went back and looked at that snake (D) and noticed the lateral fading. Which is common in Rhino (Rhinocheilus lecontei - longnose snake). Then from the amazing genetic DNA visual display of those snake... everything clicked and started to fall into place. This is a forum for citizen scientists. So, I was eager to share my insight with my colleagues 🔍 🕵️‍♀️ 🔎
🧬🔬


All Photos Credited to - Chad Whitney

(A)
Image459E135B-15B6-481D-A2CA-26B29AA6B6CA by The Singing Frog, on Flickr


(B)
Image952DEF1B-27E5-4CBF-AB58-55F05E7EF44B by The Singing Frog, on Flickr


(B) and (C)
ImageEB90721E-B18A-4255-93B1-C5F00BBFED5C by The Singing Frog, on Flickr


(D)
ImageD1ACB582-A632-4F6C-BADC-11308F3ACDFE by The Singing Frog, on Flickr


I mean, it's probably the biggest discovery in field herping since Stebbins tried to make the connections by putting them all together on the same page back in the year (INSERT YEAR HERE) 🤷‍♂️ Stebbins being the only herpetologist with the acute artistic eye to see the connection. He just couldn't see the big picture because at that time (his time), no one had ever seen a hybrid Gopher x King before (Lampropeltis californiae x Pituophis catenifer catenifer).

🌳🧬🐍🧬🐍🧬🐍🧬🐍🧬🐍🧬🐍🧬🐍 🍃

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

I'm not gonna copy/paste everything I wrote over there, but I will add the Ensatina hybrid stuff to this post for it's relevance in nature:

Ok... So, I have a story. Once upon a time, back around 2011. A series of Sierra Nevada Ensatina variations were posted to the forum from a secluded unknown population in Amador county. They were disregarded as nothing less than your average variation and no one noticed that one had a Yellow eye blotch. Understandable... sometimes the flash of a camera can cause a reflection, and such a thing can easily be overlooked by an inattentive or disinterested viewer. But the point is, a Amador county first record hybrid passed under the noses of the forum's best without a single raise of the brow, and when the forum was at it's most active, with it's most knowledgeable members. But there is a more important message of enlightenment here.. Or at very least, something to consider. Let's drive down the mountain, across the valley, and into the bay area. Where we find none-the-less than the very litter bugger responsible for all of this confusion... the Yellow-eyed ensatina. However, more importantly.. it's intergrade zones. At the top of their range, you find them intergraded with the Oregons and at the bottom intergraded with the Monterey. In both intergrade zones, you will find individuals that look like intergrades and individuals that look like perfect Yellow-eyed ensatina. However ALL are considered to be intergrades.

ImageCE431858-FC84-44C6-AEA8-D3A084D6FDFC by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

Now lets drive back to Amador county and talk about Hybrids. Here are 3 individuals found no more than 20 feet apart from one another:

The first displays High orange coloration. A characteristic of the Sierra Nevada X Yellow-eyed hybrids pointed out to us by Chad Lane 2017 discovery of the Calaveras (?) county hybrids.

The 2nd displays the non-debatable blotch in the upper part of the eye. Along with faded pigmenting and the least amount of orange between the 14-15 individuals found that day.

The third is much darker, appearing melanistic to the eye, with far more smoothly defined blotches:


ImageFotoJet - 2020-12-24T111149.145 by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

ImageFotoJet - 2020-12-24T111332.951 by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

ImageFotoJet - 2020-12-24T110732.909 by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

ImageFotoJet - 2020-12-24T110341.285 by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

Now, I understand that from a scientific and intelligent standpoint one must only certify the 2nd ensatina as a hybrid. Because it is in no-question a Sierra Nevada X Yelloweyed ensatina hybrid. But the fact of the matter is... these 3 ensatina come from a lineage that dates back before the 1800s. The possibility that they remained separate up until 15 years prior to me finding them (ensatina live about 15 yrs; these were adults) is about as possible as his milksnake not having longnose DNA in that locale. The fact of the matter is... like all the intergrades are intergades, all the ensatina in the photos from Amador, are hybrids. But only one of them is indisputable to the eye

Image5EF3FEDF-A91D-46B8-BA72-A9B9D45A0FF4 by The Singing Frog, on Flickr



On another note... Here are some pictures of gopher x king hybrids to compare to the unique weirdness of Chad's snakes:

This first individual in pics (A) and (B) are photos, "of a king Chris found in a pet shop labeled a white sided
Cal king. The owner assured him it was a pure Cal king, but wouldn't say where
it came from. I think its a hybrid that looks like a Cal king. This may be an ex-
​ample of misrepresentation, which is the downside of hybrids."

- not my quote

It's no doubt a 👑 X 🦏 ...the question now is, how do Glossy's tie into this thing as a whole (more specifically, gophers and rhinos)...?? 🌳
We need those damn diagrams 🤨👉

(A)
Image1112131_orig by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

(B)
Image2923308_orig by The Singing Frog, on Flickr


Kingsnake x Gopher snakes:

(C)
Image2190218_orig by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

(D)
Image3510221_orig by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

(E)
Image7087923_orig by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

(F)
Image7860233_orig by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

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Porter
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Ok, gotta go… 👋 This post is here for other citizen scientist to take over. If you think this seems complicated, try negotiating the survival of the earth & human race with an inter-dimensional octopus 🤦🏻‍♂️✌🏻

______________________________________🐙

___________________________ 👽 🚀
🌎 🐙

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Kelly Mc »

What are the green circles drawn on the snake photos supposed to show/mean? I have looked a couple times pretty close and have been around a lifetime full of snakes and dont see anything important.

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

Sorry it took me a few years to get back with a response to this… Things have been busy. But I suppose that’s the beauty of time travel 💁🏻‍♂️ 🧭
Kelly Mc wrote:
November 8th, 2021, 10:11 pm
What are the green circles drawn on the snake photos supposed to show/mean? I have looked a couple times pretty close and have been around a lifetime full of snakes and dont see anything important.
Here are three random photos of 🦏 - Longnose snakes

5D7F1A73-621B-4122-A4FF-CC987AACD669.jpeg
9C448C4D-7EA1-4DB1-B391-A2BF6FD477FC.jpeg
9C448C4D-7EA1-4DB1-B391-A2BF6FD477FC.jpeg (47.74 KiB) Viewed 201 times
4E85C849-F497-49AF-807F-5269FF67CCD3.jpeg
4E85C849-F497-49AF-807F-5269FF67CCD3.jpeg (123.99 KiB) Viewed 201 times
Kelly, If you click on Chad’s photos, It will take you to the Flickr page. If you double click on the images there it will give you an enlarged view of the photo.



OK I realize there’s a better way to get somewhere with this… How about instead of members writing comments like…
Cole Grover wrote:
October 28th, 2021, 11:44 am
I LOVE this post. The "hybrid milk" thing has me befuddled, though, as there's no way any of the animals posted even resemble a hybrid. 100% lactose.
Or…
fringe wrote:
September 24th, 2021, 8:54 pm
Chaddles? You've outdone yourself with this post. Just what the FHF needed. In fact, this actually morphed into a classic FHF thread there for a few minutes. The classic dial-up warning post and dialogue about the actual post, but then...out of left field comes this guy streaking across the field. Nice post bud. You left out one state though.
Or…

hcarlton wrote:
September 22nd, 2021, 9:49 am

Misquoting to push a point doesn't prove a point...because half of what you're trying to reference (and only as a "here's a thought" rather than with viable evidence) is not what I wrote. Hybrids never happened here, the milks didn't colonize simply by moving from further south, and we're still at the same spot: no viable evidence for the claim while rehashing the same former moot points.
…Explain to me why Chad’s Unique looking milk snakes are not hybrids. Instead of just saying, “it’s just a milksnake “ state your reasons for saying it. I challenge all three of these people to prove me wrong 🤷🏻‍♂️ instead of just saying I’m wrong. I think I have done a pretty good job of explaining myself Thoroughly 💁🏻‍♂️ …Now it’s your turn 🧐

Explain to me why these snakes are milksnakes…

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Porter
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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

More Supporting Evidence…
Is it all starting to make sense yet…? :lol:

25A1014E-74DD-41F4-A0CA-0A6C4D5BD2B2.jpeg
7C5DA209-D3F5-423F-BFF4-96F45A6B4490.jpeg
7C5DA209-D3F5-423F-BFF4-96F45A6B4490.jpeg (90.59 KiB) Viewed 119 times


Ensatina Comparison

ensatinamap2.jpg
ensatinamap2.jpg (26.85 KiB) Viewed 77 times
24130E01-E1C4-4288-855E-F5CAC67B44FC.jpeg

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Re: Snake headscale diagram request?

Post by Porter »

What’s that old saying… You can lead a mule To a jackass but you can’t make it an eastern milksnake..?

😳🤭

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