Split Topic from incuhead's thread

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ugh

Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by ugh »

Btw don't feel pressured to enter your finds in any database unless YOU feel compelled to do so...All the species you posted here are well-documented from the counties your specimens came from.I understand the argument for entering some finds but I (and most other herpers I know) opt not to and I have my reasons.....I'm just saying, no one should feel obligated or coerced in to doing so unless perhaps if it's a legally protected species or maybe a new county record,range extension,etc.

Sorry to get off track a bit here,not trying to derail your post.
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brick911
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

If we want to debate about this topic, please do so here instead.
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spinifer
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by spinifer »

ugh wrote:I can go to the site-without logging in or anything- and can type in any species of my choice and up pops dozens of entries,with all the data points I mentioned plain as day.Perhaps these are just entries not entered as 'closed' but they're there just the same.
But this is not an argument against submitting records to the database. I think we have clearly out-lined how an individual who is concerned about sensitivity of some of their data can submit it and share it in a responsible manner. And can then lead by example and encourage others to be responsible with their data about certain species. Whereas not participating or encouraging others to not participate does nothing to improve the system.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by millside »

where's the original post?
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brick911
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

That was my stance. You may have put it more eloquently.

Doug... go to incuhead2000's original thread.
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spinifer
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by spinifer »

Bob must be lazy today. here is the link to Orginial Post
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brick911
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

I tried to split the entire thread from the first post in this one on down, but I messed it up with these limited moderator skills. So the first post in this thread was "pulled" from the original thread that started the debate. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

spinifer wrote:Bob must be lazy today. here is the link to Orginial Post
:lol: Nate musta forgot his spellchecker today. :D
ugh

Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by ugh »

spinifer wrote:................The function of the database is two-fold: to provide an online management site for personal records and to share data with approved conservation orientated projects.................
Compiling data in one repository allows for sharing with researchers and state agencies. All projects go through a review committee. But your data is never shared with anyone without your prior approval or knowledge. If a project is approved you have the ultimate say on whether you wish to contribute your data, without any pressure to do so. Here is a list of projects that NAFHA has provided data. http://www.naherp.com/user/data-requests.php

I agree a couple of those seem like valiant, bona fide attempts at protecting some vulnerable/threatened herps and their habitat. But my personal experience with government agencies at the state level has made me cynical about much coming from such enthusiastic input on the part of the well-intentioned herper(I would love to be proven wrong with some success stories!).......

Off the top of my head, I can think of just one success story, and it came out of NJ. The fact that that state is the gold standard when it comes to regulations protecting it's natve flora and fauna is no coincidence of course, and unfortunately the laws vary wildly as you cross any state line. The bigger problem is a lack of real protection of the herps and their habitat-a well-known fact to most of us here. Sadly, the source of this problem is not simply a lack of vouchered herp records in our database.


Who are the individuals in positions with any influence? ….How much clout does your state's regional wildlife biologist(or similar-titled persons) have? Who do they answer to, and so on and so forth up the chain of command? And what happens once that order reaches someone with corrupted motives?………

The tract of land this sensitive habitat is found on-who is the landowner-or is it public land? if public, is it federal or state-owned? …..How many different agencies-and departments of agencies- have any say over what is done with the land and it’s resident flora/fauna?(we're in a recession you know, there's $$$ in those hardwood stands!)……when should they cut it? what about how this timber is removed once it’s been cut, and any resulting damage done to the surrounding habitat by such heavy equipment? who’s going to survey the land first, and who chooses that company? this company-what are their credentials? how many employess on the payroll? they have bills to pay, they want to get that job-and hopefully some future business too, right? Again, any individual involved in this whole process with comprmised integrity-what effect could that have? Adverse effects on what, some deadly rattlesnakes? some turtles that are bound to go extinct eventually anyway?………………….......

I could go on, but I’ll show mercy, lol. But these are legitimate questions that come into play everyday and the level of integrity or lack thereof held by employees in the government -OUR employees, if you will-are the ones responsible for what happens to these special places (and the animals they house ) that in most cases can’t be duplicated or recreated, even if attempted.

What I’m coming to find is to change the current cycle of accommodating ‘development’ aka sweeping habitat alteration/destruction/degradation/bulldozing/etc. the key is education. Working back through a system already in place and trying to change it that way is extremely difficult and frustrating, I think the best alternative is reaching out to the next generation, those up and coming but not yet in positions of power. Because what we’re fighting now is just ignorance(including a lack of interest/appreciation) that’s a direct result of centuries of misinformation.

That's all I got for now,lol
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by spinifer »

A couple is better than none.

And here is why the database was created: it provides a means to keep your records detailed, organized, and up to date in the event you should choose to assist "valiant, bona fide attempts at protecting some vulnerable/threatened herps and their habitat" with your data. We all know how quickly we can forget details if they are not written down promtly, and how time consuming and imposible it would be to compile a years worth of data that is not organized. Each and every day, herpers collect data through observation, why not document it? Even for the simple purpose of "just in case."
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

I'm not challenging you on this, ugh. I'm sure you wouldn't be putting all this out there if you weren't doing anything. But if education is the key, what are you doing to help herps? Like I said... I'm just curious. There is more than one way to skin a cat, so they say.
ugh

Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by ugh »

brick911 wrote:I'm not challenging you on this, ugh. I'm sure you wouldn't be putting all this out there if you weren't doing anything. But if education is the key, what are you doing to help herps? Like I said... I'm just curious. There is more than one way to skin a cat, so they say.


Ok wtf I’ll delve into that a bit here……Matter of fact I think that’s a good question for everybody here to ask themselves and I wouldn’t mind seeing some people’s different answers.

Maybe it will serve as food for thought for others here to do what they can to help a herp or two. I know I don’t hesitate to hold other people’s feet to the fire so I don’t mind explaining myself here . But anyway here’s some things that came to mind.

Most of the stuff I’ve done is what I’d call on the ‘grass roots’ level, sort of hands-on stuff I do on my own time as I make my living in an unrelated field. Mostly stuff that many of us here, I imagine, do as second nature when we’re out in the field or just talking to everyday people.

In early 2010, as it was mentioned here, I did save up some $$ and vacation time and set up an educational display booth at a rattlesnake roundup down south. The main theme I hammered on was habitat preservation and the natural and ecological history of the eastern diamondback rattlesnake stressing man’s relationship with it. I went down there not knowing what to expect but prepared for the worst-heckling, dirty looks, hell maybe even fistfights but went nontheless. Thankfully it was a surprisingly peaceful experience and I did feel my point reached a good many people there-I was surprised how many locals seemed to express a healthy respect(as opposed to blatant disdain/fear)for even the largest native crotalids.


Here are some other things I do/have done on a regular basis (and would suggest to anyone here):

-Convince neighbors to call when they need a snake moved/removed from their property(this is relevant in certain areas more so than others of course)

-Speak to anyone who shows interest-or anyone who will listen(usually random hikers, landowners, fellow diners, coworkers, relatives, etc.)-about the following, no matter what part of the country I‘m in:
a)how one has to usually do one of two things in to get envenomated-to grab or step on a venomous snake.Or that,according to statistics,consuming alcohol seems to help people get bit,lol
b)what venomous snakes are actually present in their area, and that no, ‘this or that’ is in fact nonvenomous.

-Report illegal activities to the local law enforcement. Such as:
Folks trespassing/camping/dumping, esp. in areas where I’ve observed herps,
People poaching herps
People seen blatantly destroying habitat
In some cases I would approach individuals in person myself and talk to them; other times it was best handled by the proper authorities.

-Develop a working relationship/friendship or at least some sort of repoir(sp?) with my local states’ DNR’s (or similar agencies) biologist, forester, etc. and communicate/inquire about, any land management issues(e.g. timber harvest, etc.) that may be ongoing/upcoming on public lands or if possible, any threats of development of private land that may be home to a state or federally listed species and what the listed status of that species is(endangered, threatened, etc.)

-Help local researchers when I can with herp or habitat related projects.This can be in the form of active field work,or -yes- sharing my personal records/observations with them.

-Contribute personal time and/or money to private,non-profit organizations,usually those whose main purpose is acquisition and/or protection of land/sensitive habitat.

-Another interactive thing anyone can do(which I enjoyed doing as a volunteer every saturday morning for a summer or two several years ago) is a hands-on type of presentation at the local nature center.I found standing around with a snake or other herps(I used a savanah monitor and burmese python,maybe a corn snake too) quickly draws a crowd,who inevitably start asking questions unprompted and it just goes from there like an easy conversation.

There are more examples of things I do but you get the idea.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by spinifer »

-Report illegal activities to the local law enforcement. Such as:
Folks trespassing/camping/dumping, esp. in areas where I’ve observed herps,
People poaching herps
People seen blatantly destroying habitat
In some cases I would approach individuals in person myself and talk to them; other times it was best handled by the proper authorities.
How often is this the case? I rarely have run-ins while herping that involve suspicious or illegal activity (other than my own :P ), probably because I aviod going places where other people might be, but the instances are so few I cant think of a specific example right now. I do know you live in a much more densely populated area though so that may be why.
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Gyri
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by Gyri »

spinifer wrote:How often is this the case? I rarely have run-ins while herping that involve suspicious or illegal activity (other than my own :P ), probably because I aviod going places where other people might be, but the instances are so few I cant think of a specific example right now. I do know you live in a much more densely populated area though so that may be why.
I have run into this in some public fishing access areas with regularity. In VT all native non-game vertebrates are protected, including every herp. I've seen people using leopard frogs as fishing bait regularly. In my favorite herping spot I found some folk using snakes as bait -- I only saw them with gartersnakes but that site is home to 3 threatened or endangered species of snake. I've seen people pointlessly killing snakes and shooting turtles. On one occasion I found a campfire with over 10 charred painted and map turtles in it, including 2 that were still alive. The slaughter of watersnakes at a couple sites is problematic enough that Fish and Widlife has put out educational signs specifically to deter the killing of the species. On several occasions I've known of fishermen that outright shoot snappers when they are hooked rather than cut the line. I have never run into someone I suspected of poaching a reptile or amphibian, but I do see people violating conservation laws pertaining to herps almost every month in the summer.
ugh

Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by ugh »

Nate off the top of my head I can think of two times where the illegal trespassing/camping was an issue;as for the poaching,two or three times.And this was all in the same year.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

I'll tell ya one thing. I heard about the rattlesnake roundup trip you made, and I was intrigued. Did you make a post about that in the Southeast chapter maybe? I would have loved to have read about that. I would have never even thought about that, and this is where maybe you might want to read your own words and think about things a little differently. You said "education is the key." So educate us. Tell us how you did it. What you did. The steps. What to expect. You had the balls to do it, so share with other like-minded herpers. It may be all for naught, OR you might open a door for just one of us to something like that one day, therefore doubling your efforts. *If you changed 15 people's perceptions in that trip, then I could change 15 more in Central PA, while you are down in TX (or wherever) doing it.

Grassroots doesn't have to mean all by yourself. I view the NAFHA as a grassroots "entity." We are building steam. Sure there's kinks to work out and a learning curve. Mistakes will be made, and there will always be people against what you are doing or judging you on how you do it.

NAHERP has over 55,000 records right now and its basically in its infancy. Time and growth are what we need. More people and agencies will take notice as we grow. Our data as a community will be sought after. This gives anyone from the guy who likes to catch gartersnakes with his kid up to the professional herpetologist a chance at being a part of something BIGGER THAN HIMSELF. And that's what its really all about. At least to me.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by bobassetto »

alcohol helps you dance too... :lol: :lol: .......ain't the grassroots a musical group from the 1960s???........happy to see youse kids actually having a polite banter, this is how education/sharing works!!!!.... :beer:
ugh

Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by ugh »

Bob what I was trying to convey(and maybe failed to do so) in my earlier post above is that,I still feel I can make a bigger difference by working with/thru 'the system' of contacts in actual positions that have at least some influence over such issues as development/land management....Power lies with the voting public;and changing their perception and understanding of herps and habitat-making them see value in it-is where I think I can make the biggest difference.

Yes records play a crucial role but such finer points can come into play only if/when the process even gets to that stage in any give case-only if the greater public is even aware of what's going on......I think we need to step back and see the bigger picture.Step out of our role as passionate herper for a minute and approach the issue of herp/habitat protection from the perspective of joe lawmaker,harry homeowner,etc......They want to know- 'What's in it for them?' or 'Why should they care?'.These are totally legitimate questions though you and I may initially see it as just close-mindedness or ignorance-hence my remarks about educating with the intent of changing perception and appreciation being the key.....Change these people's perceptions and the stage is at least set for the rest to fall into place....

This is the approach I tried to incorporate into my 'vendor table' at the roundup I went to.
Few things motivate like financial gain....So I researched,obtained,and brought with me a lot literature representing various government subsidized,'landowner incentive' programs-both state and federal programs.One major incentive was tax breaks for qualified participants whose land was deemed sensitive habitat of a certain type(e.g. wetlands,grssland/prarie,etc.),A land management program would subsequently be implemented,educating and involving the participating landowner.
For the two days of the event,I pushed all this pretty hard to anyone that would stop and listen.I also had literature from the Nature Conservancy and some of their state/regional offices.........To initially grab passerbys' attention-I had made a display with some eye-catching pics and wrote up a ~4 page document with any intruiging and relevent info I could think of about the local rattlesnakes' natural history and ecology.It was a fine line to walk,conveying a decidedly 'pro-snake' message at such an event,without drawing the ire of the organizers.I also typed up flyers for attendees to take home.The flyers had more practical info such as snakebite info,some local snake removal/relocation contact numbers,etc....

I am just saying, If more of us took some of the time and energy that goes toward database contributing,and directed it into other relevent means or causes,there's a lot of things we can do.How much difference is made just depends on using the right channels,i.e. 'work smarter not just harder'.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by kyle loucks »

This is the approach I tried to incorporate into my 'vendor table' at the roundup I went to.
Few things motivate like financial gain....So I researched,obtained,and brought with me a lot literature representing various government subsidized,'landowner incentive' programs-both state and federal programs.One major incentive was tax breaks for qualified participants whose land was deemed sensitive habitat of a certain type(e.g. wetlands,grssland/prarie,etc.),A land management program would subsequently be implemented,educating and involving the participating landowner.
For the two days of the event,I pushed all this pretty hard to anyone that would stop and listen.I also had literature from the Nature Conservancy and some of their state/regional offices.........To initially grab passerbys' attention-I had made a display with some eye-catching pics and wrote up a ~4 page document with any intruiging and relevent info I could think of about the local rattlesnakes' natural history and ecology.It was a fine line to walk,conveying a decidedly 'pro-snake' message at such an event,without drawing the ire of the organizers.I also typed up flyers for attendees to take home.The flyers had more practical info such as snakebite info,some local snake removal/relocation contact numbers,etc....
:thumb: :beer:
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by bobassetto »

if you wanted catch passerbys' attention......you shoulda brought ME!!!!!!.... :shock: .........is who i think it is????? :?
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by heavenscloud »

Well-stated.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by stlouisdude »

I think pointing out possible financial advantages is a good idea.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by dragoncjo »

I can back ugh up on all that stuff he has done that is no BS. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone that passionate about herp protection....

Nate your fortunate to not have to run ins with suspicious activity.....I normally have to deal with it 2-3x a year but it really ruins your day and sometimes longer than that. Ugh and I had a couple trips where we found numerous nesting sites dug up....really a tough thing to see.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by spinifer »

nests of what species?
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by stlouisdude »

I think a lot states have their own herp databases? I am familiar with some that are state controlled or controlled by a University staff. It seems here in CT audubon and similar nature groups do some monitoring of vernal pools. I think it's a good idea to not only record data, but have the same team recording the data at the same locations over a long period of time. Seems to me that this kind of longitudnal data would be very useful when looking for trends.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by spinifer »

Yes there are many databases where you can submit records. The diffence is in all those others, your data becomes property of the database to do with what they please. If you choose to support those databases that is great. But our database is unique in that the data remains yours. You can maintain it as a personal online notebook and when opportunities to share data are presented you make the choice.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by kyle loucks »

I love using this database as a personal repository. I dont have vouchers from my early records, but I am adding them anyway for my own lists. Entities can decide which of my records they want to use. I'm now up entering my 1987 records, found them on an old floppy disc.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by spinifer »

I will be entering my unvouchered records at some point for the same reason.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

I like that idea too, but stopped entering unvouchered records. If its a worthwhile sighting, I'll usually make a note in the entry of something else from the area.
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Re: Split Topic from incuhead's thread

Post by brick911 »

ugh wrote:Bob what I was trying to convey(and maybe failed to do so) in my earlier post above is that,I still feel I can make a bigger difference by working with/thru 'the system' of contacts in actual positions that have at least some influence over such issues as development/land management....Power lies with the voting public;and changing their perception and understanding of herps and habitat-making them see value in it-is where I think I can make the biggest difference.

I am just saying, If more of us took some of the time and energy that goes toward database contributing,and directed it into other relevent means or causes,there's a lot of things we can do.How much difference is made just depends on using the right channels,i.e. 'work smarter not just harder'.
Justin, I paraphrased your quote from a few days back to touch on the points I felt necessary. First, I think it is GREAT that you have the time, energy, and passion to work through "the system." Yes, I think that everybody could too, if they wanted to badly enough. And yes... I also think that if more of us worked this way, we would be better off. I am not denying that at all.

My point is that some people don't have the capacity or the passion to do all that. Some people just like finding snakes with there little boy... or just enjoy taking pictures of turtles. If they have the amount of time to input some data in their spare time, than that is where the database can help bridge the gap between amateur and people who can get things done.

*Do I wish more people had the balls and creativity to go set up shop at a round-up (for example)... sure. Do I think it will happen, probably not. But do I think that we can motivate enough smalltime-herpers into putting in a few records per year... yes. And its happening. And I also think that time will prove the value of this network of records. Rapport and communication needs to be established, and it is... slowly but surely.
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