Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

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Notread
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Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

It's been a good day. Doug and I started flipping snakes at one of our unknown spots. A milk, a green, and some ringnecks. Then we were off visiting a timber den no one else knows about. Doug had to split, so I tracked a weasel, attempted to make a leaning tower of bog turtles, knocked down a no parking sign at one of my secret spots, put a dead bird in a plastic bag, flipped some skinks and another smooth green, visited a cemetery, re-flipped a rat snake that I saw last week with Doug. And now I am home. One of the statements above is not true. I'll let you ponder which one. I hit seven herping spots and one mammal specific spot in 5 counties and three states. Other than Doug, not a one of you can name a single spot I was at today.

Between going out in separate directions, I was greeted with this fun PM and I have had the rest of the day to let it fester in my mind:

******* wrote:Subject: April Favorites
Notread wrote:
brick911 wrote: I get out A LOT. Don't worry about who's finding what. I see people finding herps I'm not finding and it makes me want to run out and look, but honestly we all have different situations. I have more free time without my kids here. I need to fill it with something, ya know.
Head north and we will work that secret spot of mine. Flipped some nice things on it yesterday, but the nicer things will be out soon.

Edit: BTW, nice shots!
Hi Notread,
Please use discretion in regards to bringing people to your secret spot. In addition to the phone/utility guys that frequent it, It is also too well known by herpers for any more to be visiting it. Especially if rocks are going to be flipped and hooks used. In addition, I believe there are some studies being conducted there. Hope you understand, I am concerned by the increased herper traffic. The snakes there are very skittish as it is.
thanks,
**
THIS IS NOT TARGETED TO ANYONE SPECIFIC, BUT I NEED TO GET THIS OUT.

Lets face reality here. Between Doug and I, we have secret spots which no one gave us, no one showed us, and no one knows from New York to Florida and everything in between. We have secret spots which we developed on our own in FOREIGN FREAKING COUNTRIES. This PM represents a growing trend on this forum.

A picture shows a leaf and you people claim to recognize a spot. Heck, People claim to recognize spots based on "recognizing a snake". Come on. There are soooooo few pine snakes (just as a semi-random example) in the world that you can recognize a snake? Give it a rest and face reality. You don't know the snake. It may resemble a snake you've seen, but you don't know the snake. That leaf you used to ID a spot may very well be similar to a leaf you saw in another spot, but that doesn't make it yours.

This author of the above PM even goes as far as to say he knows my "secret spot" with out even a picture! He's based his guess solely on the words "Head north and we will work that secret spot of mine. Flipped some nice things on it yesterday, but the nicer things will be out soon." WOOOOOO! Look at all the details those two sentences revealed. We know Bricky is in the Philly region, so obviously north of that. We know that there are nice things under rocks there, and that at some point, something nicer will be there. Perhaps copperheads, perhaps migrating blue herons, or perhaps strawberries and red sumac. Who the (insert cartoon style censoring here) is to say?

Unlike some people, I work hard at developing new spots. I leave trails. No one has to show me a location... I'll find it. It's what I do. I am a field herper, and I am some what decent naturalist at that. If I don't find it on the first try, I research some more and try again. People think everything is heavily herped, well find your own darn spots and you'll never find another herper there. If your mindset tells you that you know every locality for a given species, get off your high horse.

I'm not the best herper; I am certainly not the best photographer, but I am good enough at what I do to satisfy me and that is all that counts. Sometimes it seems that this hobby is over run by ego driven psychos who feel the need to know every spot, recognize every snake, scold people at every chance, and make false claims just to feel like big shots. News flash: My life list is likely bigger than all those people with the big old egos and I worked hard on my own or with my friends to find those species. With a handful of exceptions, I haven't needed anyone to show me anything (and regarding those exceptions, thank you).

So the entire point directed at the community in general (if you feel offended or the need to argue these points, then it is probably directed at you too): Chill out, step off your soap boxes, take a breath, and accept that you simply do not know everything, everywhere. Accept that when you first started getting into herping you were a new guy. Accept that not all new people are evil poachers of doom and they need to be felt out on an individual basis. Accept that guiding new people is a positive way to pay back a community that once accepted you as the new guy. And finally, don't be a condescending jerk. Jerkbaggery is never acceptable.

Rant complete. Have a nice day.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Mike VanValen »

Gotta love the mysterious shadow people who send PMs with orders on what to post and where to herp. :lol:

I've had a few of those as well over the years.
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spinifer
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by spinifer »

Brick is surprisingly good at IDing spots based on leaves, placement of sticks, and blades of grass. He is especially good at figuring out your spots when flowers are in the pictures by analyzing their beauty. NEVER post pictures that contain flowers.
millside
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by millside »

I like spinifers humour, and do remember this was in no means aimed at Brick. I believe it was a follow up to one of his posts.
I agree with what Jeff(notread) says in his post. I also get sick of looking at a new persons posts that they are excited about, that gets debunked by the first person that says, "I know that spot" and "I so know that snake"
and so what if you do, let someone else enjoy it too without you own ego getting in the way.
now I have to work, and will contemplate.
enjoy the day.
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

Totally agree with Jeff on this one. That PM makes absolutely no sense. I don't know how the PMer would have any idea what Jeff was even talking about to begin with and if he/she thought he did, that's still quite a bold assumption to make given the fact of NO details given other than "secret spot." That just seems unintelligent to me. Which leads me to believe that the PMer must have a biased view of either Jeff or myself. I'd rather it be a case of elitist paranoia, but like I said, the pieces don't add up to that, in my opinion.

I don't want to be guilt of assumption though. Maybe the PMer does know Jeff's secret spot as is claimed. And maybe the PMer owns the land. In that case, if I ever go to Jeff's spot, I'll be sure to ask for permission from the PMer, or send in my registration for permit to look for "nice" and "nicer" things.
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

spinifer wrote:Brick is surprisingly good at IDing spots based on leaves, placement of sticks, and blades of grass. He is especially good at figuring out your spots when flowers are in the pictures by analyzing their beauty. NEVER post pictures that contain flowers.
Any site that contains flowers is probably my study site, so to all herpers - look around when you find a snake. If you see flowers, check with me before going back or posting pictures. Thanks in advance. :thumb:
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BenIsAlive
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by BenIsAlive »

I usually don't like rant posts but this is a good one. I agree
dragoncjo
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by dragoncjo »

I wouldn't have a problem with it if the first sentence was the only thing sort of mentioned. I think its ok to tell people watch you secret spots and who you take, in this context it was to Brick who is harmless, but in the past that line in other words was posted to people who got busted under shellshock so the caution is reasonable. Maybe its known by the receveiver who understands this already but the sender may not know and just put it out there as they are doing studies in the area or are responsible for the animals in the area.

I understand this was not targeted to anyone in particular, but since you are sighting specific posts almost I feel the need to defend myself and explain facts/realities. I did recognize the snake and the extremely obvious spot it was in. I did not chastise the post. Just saying I recognize the snake its essentially a STUDY snake of mine on which I've kept an eye on for three years now. The other pine snake there was bagged and sold at the NY White Plains show before/after she laid eggs in June/July 2009. The snake was never found again and the bagger avoided prosecution. for all I know the bagger checks these forums, is planning a memorial day trip(as many guys do) and recognized the spot like I did and Bob Assetto and like kdobe would.

I understand your thoughts Jeff, alot of us especially me get really carried away sometime I understand that. Alot of us have egos, many of us fill our egos different ways by trying to be knowledgable or posting photos to brag be competitive. Some of my thoughts are merited maybe others not so much but I can't take seeing animals ILLEGALLY collected from the wild so that is why I personally do what I do.

Also take one thing into consideration herpers are fortunate in that they can freely go from one study site to the next with little regard for what happens to that site after they leave. Maybe they will never be back and don't see what happens in the future. On the other hand a biologists have to continue to monitor the site and often times good guys just walking through affect the study, sometimes if the study is comprimised the study loses funding and ends. I study rat snakes and timber rattlesnake, often times my sites are disturbed before I get there and I get no data, I totally avoid one study site because of traffic. This effects my study/my pocket/my results, the land I use is public so there isn't much I can do but when I hear the spot being publicized or shared openly to anyone it bothers me......Maybe this is the same dynamic going on here, maybe a bit over the top in this case. I'm not justifying anyones actions just trying to but myself in both shoes because I've been on both ends numerous times. I've received these emails and sent them as all you know.
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MassHorridus
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by MassHorridus »

I'm not the best herper; I am certainly not the best photographer, but I am good enough at what I do to satisfy me and that is all that counts. Sometimes it seems that this hobby is over run by ego driven psychos who feel the need to know every spot, recognize every snake, scold people at every chance, and make false claims just to feel like big shots. News flash: My life list is likely bigger than all those people with the big old egos and I worked hard on my own or with my friends to find those species. With a handful of exceptions, I haven't needed anyone to show me anything (and regarding those exceptions, thank you).

So the entire point directed at the community in general (if you feel offended or the need to argue these points, then it is probably directed at you too): Chill out, step off your soap boxes, take a breath, and accept that you simply do not know everything, everywhere. Accept that when you first started getting into herping you were a new guy. Accept that not all new people are evil poachers of doom and they need to be felt out on an individual basis. Accept that guiding new people is a positive way to pay back a community that once accepted you as the new guy. And finally, don't be a condescending jerk. Jerkbaggery is never acceptable.

Rant complete. Have a nice day.[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHA
I've been on here for a while and one person has helped me find an animal. 10 People have warned me not to even try.
Well said :beer:
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

As far the PM though, how did whoever wrote the message know this was a study site from Jeff's original message to me? There's no way that person could have. I didn't even know where the heck Jeff was talking about, and it was directed at me. It's just useless harassing, if you ask me, all built on assumption.

Now, I could be wrong. Maybe Jeff's secret spot is in fact a study site and the PMer has camera's set up and incriminating video of Jeff stroking Timber Rattlesnakes and playing catch with Bog Turtles. But if that's the case, the PMer should not be so vague and cryptic.

So I'm sticking with harassment.
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KingCam
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by KingCam »

brick911 wrote:Any site that contains flowers is probably my study site, so to all herpers - look around when you find a snake. If you see flowers, check with me before going back or posting pictures. Thanks in advance. :thumb:
Son of a !!
millside
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by millside »

I sure hope his camera did not get a pic of me with my timber necklace.

and dragon, I always appreciate when you take time to post something intelligent to say. It does give a different side to things sometimes. :beer:
Notread
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

millside wrote: dragon, I always appreciate when you take time to post something intelligent to say. It does give a different side to things sometimes. :beer:
I agree.
dragoncjo
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by dragoncjo »

I like to play devil's advocate sometimes, but I like all you guys consider many of you friends and just like to put my .02 cents in sometimes :thumb:.....and at the end of the day I love to debate nothing but good comes of it.
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

Dragon's points were spot on. And I understand his defense completely. Group hug.

Ok, so that checks Chris off the list of possible PMers. :D Just kidding, sir. :beer:
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

KingCam wrote:
brick911 wrote:Any site that contains flowers is probably my study site, so to all herpers - look around when you find a snake. If you see flowers, check with me before going back or posting pictures. Thanks in advance. :thumb:
Son of a !!
:lol: You're safe. MO hasn't been a study site of mine for years.
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KingCam
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by KingCam »

brick911 wrote:
KingCam wrote:
brick911 wrote:Any site that contains flowers is probably my study site, so to all herpers - look around when you find a snake. If you see flowers, check with me before going back or posting pictures. Thanks in advance. :thumb:
Son of a !!
:lol: You're safe. MO hasn't been a study site of mine for years.
Whew!! I was worried for a second :lol: :crazyeyes:
dragoncjo
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by dragoncjo »

Hah, no it wasn't me this time I promise :lol: . I'm trying to control myself these days and focus on my actual job so I can make enough money to retire 30 years from now.....if only the stock market would cooperate. For a second while reading jeff's post I was like does he think this is me...hah.
millside
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by millside »

Kingcam,
what you should really be worried about is if you actually have flowers in your pictures.
flowers and butterflies are for sissies, so I always make sure they are never in my pics. :oops:
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KingCam
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by KingCam »

millside wrote:Kingcam,
what you should really be worried about is if you actually have flowers in your pictures.
flowers and butterflies are for sissies, so I always make sure they are never in my pics. :oops:
uh oh... :oops:
Image
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

:lol: Crap... I'm waiting for the green frog pic to show up now. Cameron, you don't know what I'm talking about... yet.
millside
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by millside »

oh man, you are doomed to be "one of us" now. :lol:
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KingCam
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by KingCam »

brick911 wrote::lol: Crap... I'm waiting for the green frog pic to show up now. Cameron, you don't know what I'm talking about... yet.
You've peaked my curiosity.
millside wrote:oh man, you are doomed to be "one of us" now. :lol:
Who? Me? Uh oh, I'm sure how to feel about that :? :lol:
Notread
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

It's funny, doug just pointed out that same species of flower to me yesterday. I seem to remember it being something like " hey check out this little milk snake" with a reply of "hang on I like this flower!". Yeah. Something like that. Haha
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

I saw my first Wood Turtle ever last two weekends ago, but I'd be damned if I didn't climb the cliff to get me a shot of some Columbine. :roll:

Image

Edit... The picture sucks, so this was my chance to post it.
millside
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by millside »

I totally did not show Jeff a beautiful little flurry of columbine, I was pointing to the sweet rock right behind them, I swear :shock:
Bobbleton
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Bobbleton »

Jeff, while I fully believe that the sites you and Doug have established are super-safe . . . why so indignant? And why the assumption of an ego trip? If I wanted to flex my ego, I'd post everything from the study sites - not try to keep others from posting.

Everyone's quick to talk shit about poachers when it comes up, but even quicker to make a big joke about anyone expressing concern over the issue. The weirdest thing to me is how guys who gave up "fun herping" to devote all their time/money/blood/sweat to conservation work (which is anything but fun) are universally viewed as egotistical douches. As one of those douches, I can honestly say that my ONLY motivation is to protect the animals. I mean . . . we're all on the same side here, right?

Not trying to stir the pot or anything. Hell, I barely have time to look at the forum nowadays . . . I just don't get the resentment.
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BenIsAlive
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by BenIsAlive »

Bobbleton wrote:Jeff, while I fully believe that the sites you and Doug have established are super-safe . . . why so indignant? And why the assumption of an ego trip? If I wanted to flex my ego, I'd post everything from the study sites - not try to keep others from posting.

Everyone's quick to talk shit about poachers when it comes up, but even quicker to make a big joke about anyone expressing concern over the issue. The weirdest thing to me is how guys who gave up "fun herping" to devote all their time/money/blood/sweat to conservation work (which is anything but fun) are universally viewed as egotistical douches. As one of those douches, I can honestly say that my ONLY motivation is to protect the animals. I mean . . . we're all on the same side here, right?

Not trying to stir the pot or anything. Hell, I barely have time to look at the forum nowadays . . . I just don't get the resentment.
What is "fun herping"?. if I don't devote all my time/money/blood/sweat to conservation am I just "fun herping"? Isn't that egotistical? There little things some of the "fun herpers" do everyday to help with conservation: Donated money here and there; reporting wildlife offences; reporteing endangered or threatened species to the state or other wildlife services.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by kyle loucks »

You want to have fun herping? Come with me... good times...

Appreciate the civil dialog.. good points all.
Notread
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

Bobbleton wrote:Jeff, while I fully believe that the sites you and Doug have established are super-safe . . . why so indignant? And why the assumption of an ego trip? If I wanted to flex my ego, I'd post everything from the study sites - not try to keep others from posting.

Everyone's quick to talk shit about poachers when it comes up, but even quicker to make a big joke about anyone expressing concern over the issue. The weirdest thing to me is how guys who gave up "fun herping" to devote all their time/money/blood/sweat to conservation work (which is anything but fun) are universally viewed as egotistical douches. As one of those douches, I can honestly say that my ONLY motivation is to protect the animals. I mean . . . we're all on the same side here, right?

Not trying to stir the pot or anything. Hell, I barely have time to look at the forum nowadays . . . I just don't get the resentment.
For once, I wasn't even knocking you guys and you still think I am. :P Do what you do, you're fine. I'm tired as hell so just call me and I'll explain the rest over the phone. I'm wiped out today.
ugh

Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by ugh »

I've no idea who wrote that godawful meanspirited partypoopin pm but sorry I always do and probably always will side with those pleading/pushing for discretion.

Jeff you're one of the few guys I can think of that still doesn't see it that way(or at least feels compelled to speak out against erring on the side of caution/discretion) even after putting this much work into developing 'your own' sites.The vast majority of the time it seems to be the stance of newcomers/youngsters/inexperienced herpers that have not had enough of their favorite sites raped/pillaged/plundered by baggers and poachers ,or overherped to death by large groups of other herpers,etc....definitely not a criticism,just an observation.

**EDit-I just saw/read bobbleton's post,and that's funny I too can recall countless times the concern by myself and others over harm -intentional,indirect or otherwise-done to the animals and/or their habitat was made into a f'in joke,poked fun at,etc. by the 'goosesteppin' FHF NE chapter's most faithful .

But of course It's probably just my ego clouding my perception,lol.
(that last line was a joke actually-Bob said it best,ego has absolutely nothing to do with it).
dragoncjo
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by dragoncjo »

Everyone has an ego in some capacity, I'll argue ones ego is filled by posting photos of what they see to gain accolades, and someone else will agrue that my ego is filled by thinking i own everyone's info and sites..............lets just protect the herps we seek.

Study sites can become weird places were you feel like your responsible for everything that goes on and sometimes in the eyes of wildlife officials you are responsible. If something goes awry at your site people look at you like you had a part in it or allowed it, its difficult not to get attached to the spot and feel protective of it.

Jeff in regards to your situation the person never actually said 'hey Jeff don't go to the spot anymore' right? He/She basically was just asking for you to use discretion in who you brought.

I will say that the northern spots for a species have recently drawn alot of attention because of the amount of foot traffic and possible disease spreading and snakes dying off with weird fungus. I think many of the folks going to these spots feel like if more people start going that the state will just completely restrict access and nobody will be able to go, for this reason I think they are trying to police themselves before the states do. I feel this to be the case for species down were I live also, similar what happened with tiger salamanders.
ugh

Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by ugh »

ok also-i knew some of this post just sounded off to me-but how can anyone-esp. someone so dedicated to submitting voucher after voucher after voucher-pages and pages worth-maybe one of the database's top ten,i'm thinking-question the validity,credibilty,or practicality of an individual specimen being recognized(or recaptured),even time and time again?

Of course individual animals can be recognized(and evermore educational) by anything from pattern,unique scars,size,you name it.And without even touching/disturbing the animal in many cases-just a visual id/confirmation,preferably of course with photo voucher.

Hell that's a personally favorite aspect of herping is seeing indiviuals-of whatever species-year after year!

And the ego thing-sorry,can't quite let that go-wtf,ego is often more about status,personal recognition,numbers-driven,etc....So how does it sound that someone that quickly comes to the defense of posting more and more,the more the merrier and enters hundreds of vouchers into the database-is accusing those of us who long ago opted out of the 'post,post post your finds' game and opt instead for a low profile,and suggest others to try the same-of being the egomaniacs?Just doesn't hold water.

Also-food for thought-don't show so many folks your sites,and you may not have to keep resorting to foreign countries and increasingly remote locales to claim 'your own' new ones!
Bobbleton
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Bobbleton »

BenIsAlive wrote: What is "fun herping"?. if I don't devote all my time/money/blood/sweat to conservation am I just "fun herping"? Isn't that egotistical? There little things some of the "fun herpers" do everyday to help with conservation: Donated money here and there; reporting wildlife offences; reporteing endangered or threatened species to the state or other wildlife services.
Is that egotistical? If you are going out with the goal of taking pictures and having fun - yes, that would be fun herping. Its a descriptive name - chosen to demonstrate now UN-fun conservation work can be. Why would you choose to take that as derogatory? And no, I wouldn't minimalize any of those things you mentioned - IMO they all represent the right thing to do and totally help with conservation. Those are things everyone should do. But that doesn't change the conditions under which you herp. Going into the woods with a (often difficult and unpleasant) job to do regardless of the miserable weather or awful habitat is not fun. And it is NOT the same as regular herping. Reporting wildlife offenses is an awesome thing to do, but it doesn't make you a C.O., it makes you a good citizen.

I'm not trying to imply that anyone's active level of involvement in conservation makes them better or worse than the next herper. I know very well that every single member of the community has something valuable to offer; to ignore that simple fact would be stupid.

I guess the point I'm getting at, is when you devote so much of yourself to it - you tend to have strong feelings about it. And when it comes to a subject you're personally involved with every single day - it sucks to have your opinion so simply mocked and dismissed. If its on the merits of how strong the argument is that's one thing . . . but to be dismissed based on the implication that everyone vocal about cautious herping/posting is ego-stroking . . . well again that just sucks.
Notread
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

ugh wrote:Jeff you're one of the few guys I can think of that still doesn't see it that way(or at least feels compelled to speak out against erring on the side of caution/discretion) even after putting this much work into developing 'your own' sites.
Really? I don't speak out against erring on the side of caution/discretion at all! I am all for caution. I learned my lesson when those scumbuckets that were arrested in SHELLSHOCK tried to contact me to take them to rattlesnakes. I don't trust anyone, for any reason until they give me reason to. I really do think you misjudge me, but maybe I am misjudging myself, so if I am right maybe Dave or Bobbleton can back me up on that. I just don't believe in treating new guys like garbage before its warranted and I don't believe in making up a bunch of BS to PM to someone in an attempt to coerce them.

I am all for caution. In fact, how much have you seen me post lately? Last year? Do you see pictures of all the corns, pines, "canebrakes" and goofy milksnakes I've seen? Wow, I never even entered them into the database. I guess I should get moving and get those in there before I forget for another year and a half.
The vast majority of the time it seems to be the stance of newcomers/youngsters/inexperienced herpers that have not had enough of their favorite sites raped/pillaged/plundered by baggers and poachers ,or overherped to death by large groups of other herpers,etc....definitely not a criticism,just an observation.
That's fair, and perhaps it's true. I am young and inexperienced, no doubt there. But the reason my sites don't get plundered is because I suss out everyone who I ever take to them. Which, despite the apparent common perception, is a really small group of people. One herper to one spot here, another herper to another spot there. I suppose the biggest threat is the 3-4 people I've herped with the last couple of years gets together and makes a map and then they will all know 4 or 5 of the spots instead of being individually isolated. I think i can handle that.
**EDit-I just saw/read bobbleton's post,and that's funny I too can recall countless times the concern by myself and others over harm -intentional,indirect or otherwise-done to the animals and/or their habitat was made into a f'in joke,poked fun at,etc. by the 'goosesteppin' FHF NE chapter's most faithful .
As goosestepping implies fascism, and fascism would be more akin to your stand point than the opposite stand point that sentence doesn't do it for me. :P haha, kidding aside, everyone jokes about everything here. It's what makes it fun. Don't take personal offense to it or you will go nuts and photograph flowers and butterflies like Brick.
dragoncjo
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by dragoncjo »

I will say that I know Emma and Bobbleton have taken Jeff or directed Jeff to some real good spots down this way, and everytime down none of the photos or info has been spread about, I really respect that :thumb: , now Jeff if only I could figure out who those characters you saw with snake tongs were, they make me a bit nervous.
Notread
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

dragoncjo wrote:Study sites can become weird places were you feel like your responsible for everything that goes on and sometimes in the eyes of wildlife officials you are responsible. If something goes awry at your site people look at you like you had a part in it or allowed it, its difficult not to get attached to the spot and feel protective of it.
I can totally see that. Fortunately, there is no study site.
Jeff in regards to your situation the person never actually said 'hey Jeff don't go to the spot anymore' right? He/She basically was just asking for you to use discretion in who you brought.
Yes, you are correct. But I would like to point out that while the site the person is refering to does happen to be one of my favorite localities it had nothing to do with the original post I made to brick. The PM'er made an off the wall guess on what I was refering to.

My problem isn't that he said "Don't go there" which as you point out isn't the case. My problem is two-fold...
1. The weak attempt at mind reading over a simple sentance annoys me.
2. The PM was totally inaccurate regarding the reasons he listed in the PM. Truth be told, none of those are an issue. I can disect them one by one for you all if you'd like, but in the intrest of MOTHAF'N discretion i've been trying to avoid that. (See, ugh?) Instead of disecting them, I refer to Millside who knows the site as well as I do. If he chooses he can confirm or deny that the PM "concerns" are 100% inaccurate... Up to him.
I will say that the northern spots for a species have recently drawn alot of attention because of the amount of foot traffic and possible disease spreading and snakes dying off with weird fungus. I think many of the folks going to these spots feel like if more people start going that the state will just completely restrict access and nobody will be able to go, for this reason I think they are trying to police themselves before the states do. I feel this to be the case for species down were I live also, similar what happened with tiger salamanders.
This is a problem for a lot more than reptile and amphibians. RE: White Nose Syndrom. Very concerning, indeed.
Bobbleton
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Bobbleton »

Notread wrote: I really do think you misjudge me, but maybe I am misjudging myself, so if I am right maybe Dave or Bobbleton can back me up on that.
Haha you'd be even worse off, Jeff.
This is a problem for a lot more than reptile and amphibians. RE: White Nose Syndrom. Very concerning, indeed.
OT: This leaves me with such a feeling of dread . . . a prolific ultra-common species brought to the brink in almost no time as a result of a single passive introduction event. Its insanity.
Notread
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

ugh wrote:ok also-i knew some of this post just sounded off to me-but how can anyone-esp. someone so dedicated to submitting voucher after voucher after voucher-pages and pages worth-maybe one of the database's top ten,i'm thinking-question the validity,credibilty,or practicality of an individual specimen being recognized(or recaptured),even time and time again?
Me? If you mean me, I have to re-suggest that you are misjudging me.

But to answer that question, the difference is personally refinding the specimin at a site versus someone posting a picture of a specimen that truly could have been taken anywhere and not being able to prove it is the same specimen. Did I say that clear? My brain doesn't work so well lately. Let me know if I didn't spit that out well and I will try again.
Of course individual animals can be recognized(and evermore educational) by anything from pattern,unique scars,size,you name it.And without even touching/disturbing the animal in many cases-just a visual id/confirmation,preferably of course with photo voucher.
Sure, this is true, but what is more important than pattern, unique scars, and all??? LOCALITY. If you found a milk snake 50 miles away in another habitat that looked similar you wouldn't bother checking the physical features would you? The point I am making is that it is statistically logical that another snake of a species somewhere in the world likely has a very similar pattern. Yeah?
All the ego paragraph
We are just going to disagree on this no matter what. I'm standing down there. :)
Also-food for thought-don't show so many folks your sites,and you may not have to keep resorting to foreign countries and increasingly remote locales to claim 'your own' new ones!
Justin, truthfully, I feel like all your replies were cool and respectful for the most part but this sentence burns me up. A LOT. Again, you are making an inaccurate assumption that I show lots of people my sites and that they are some how suffering because of it. This couldn't be further from the truth.

I "resort" to foreign countries and remote localities because I LIKE IT. I prefer the diversity of tropical and subtropical habitats over our local herps. It is my preference and nothing more than that.

Further, I like remote localities because more remote = less human. I wouldn't think that would be hard for you to get. You see, I like more than just finding and photographing herps. I like hiking and rock scrambling, wilderness survival, tracking, and just about everything else that can be done outdoors. I'm not a stick to the manicured park on the pretty manicured little trails with all the pretty little people kind of dude. It's not me. The wilderness is me. That is where I am home, where I belong. It is a choice I make based on my preferences. I get more enjoyment in many cases making a hard trek to a locality than driving up to it and falling out of the car on top of a snake.
Notread
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Notread »

Bobbleton wrote:
Notread wrote: I really do think you misjudge me, but maybe I am misjudging myself, so if I am right maybe Dave or Bobbleton can back me up on that.
Haha you'd be even worse off, Jeff.

Haha, thanks for nothing jerk. But at least I know you are kidding.... right? :beer:
dragoncjo
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by dragoncjo »

Good talk guys, I still think this once in a while excercise still has value for new guys. Where is Emma in all this, probably at dunkin donuts getting a coffee with cream no sugar....the cup will be found in his car 30 years from now, hah. Why don't herpers clean out their cars?, some of you guys look homeless, hah.
Bobbleton
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Bobbleton »

Notread wrote: Haha, thanks for nothing jerk. But at least I know you are kidding.... right?
No dummy - of course I have your back! Its just that an endorsement from me or emma probably counts for negative points . . .
:beer:
Good plan.
Bobbleton
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by Bobbleton »

kyle loucks wrote:You want to have fun herping? Come with me... good times...
It is good times! I swear we're gonna get out again before 2012 . . .
millside
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by millside »

I have read through all of the comments, some good, some off for sure.

the one point I want to remake- the original statement of the original pm.
he commented on Jeffs sentence that was so totally vague, that noone, and I mean noone could ever know where he was talking about.

there lies the whole problem with pms for a "troubled" species. It leads me back to my statements, it is okay for a "professional" to look for these species. but unless you are an acedemic, don't even go to that area.
Jeff and I have herped for almost 5 years now. My trust of species of concern with him is total. We take our pics, don't disturb habitat intentionally(the 500 pound rock I tipped over was a total accident) and we don't take "unknowns" to any of these areas.

But then I see what state does to these areas, or how about Rutgers, how many students are taken to pinesnake dens, maybe hundreds over a few years. they dig up dens in feb or april, but thats okay, Jeff and I have never "dug" up a den to find an animal. but in the name of science thats okay.
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

I agree... I still think the original PM was total BS. But, I was enjoying the way the thread is going for the most part.

I guess I really should just drop this, but I can't. Everybody here has an ego and does everything because of their ego. Some are larger than others, and we obviously approach our ego-driven passions differently. Everybody lives and learns and makes tons of mistakes along the way.

We all do the things we do for different reasons. Sometimes I personally go on the defense because people challenge the way I share things. I have gotten better with discretion, but from my standpoint, I'm not going anywhere and will always share things with the forum. That's the road I'm taking... to educate to those who haven't, and to accept education from those who have. I'm no expert, and no newbie so I can benefit from both angles.

Will my posts maybe cause harm, or an animal to be taken? Possibly. Will science and academics pickle something? Possibly. What's the saying... "If you wanna make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs." Who does better for a species, Chris trudging through the pines with a big tv antenna in his hands, or me taking 5 kids out and changing misperceptions, developing passions, etc.? Who knows??? It's just where each of us as an individual is in our lives. We do what we can in relativity, and mistakes will be made.

So these PM's and attitudes suck to me because I do what I do in the context of my own life and experience. I'm not PMing people saying, "Yo, you need to go have yourself some kids so you can take them out herping and they can tell their friends that snakes aren't the evil monsters people make them out to be." Because for me, that's the most important way I help "the cause."

I don't think Jeff PM's people saying, you need to stop helping the state biologists and come to Costa Rica with me. It's because of these differences in attitude, that the "divide" between us has occurred. We all can't be (or might not want to be) working for the state. We all are different separate individuals.

We can all justify what we do herping-wise to ourselves, but the bottom line is that if it makes us feel good about ourselves, it IS about our ego.

(That may have been a lot of incoherent rambling. These damn people at work won't shut up long enough to let me come up with clear thoughts. :lol: )
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

And if I may, the two best people on this site at keeping their ego's in check are from the academic side, spinifer, and from the non-academic side, notread. In my opinion. If we really want to talk ego's, we should pay attention to the way these two handle their herping and passion for herps.
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

Bobbleton wrote:
kyle loucks wrote:You want to have fun herping? Come with me... good times...
It is good times! I swear we're gonna get out again before 2012 . . .
Herping with Kyle is always a blast! Just hold onto your hat if you're cruising. :P
millside
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by millside »

I think Bob just said "we all have ego problems" :roll:
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brick911
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by brick911 »

:lol: No. Every human in the world has an ego. ...Not a problem. Some of us certainly have problems though, but that's not for me to judge.
bobassetto
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Re: Ok, Lets all take a breath and face reality....

Post by bobassetto »

PMer????....... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .......chrissie......youre korrect.....recognized the "SPOT".....when one spends enough time someplace .....you can recognize the freakin' sand..... :lol: :lol: :lol: .......sorry to learn 'bout that white plains incident.......there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to market a wild caught barrens pine.......that guy is a GIANT DOUCHE......FYI.....aint been out there since king jeff was here last fall......HMU.... :thumb:
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