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Mike Waters
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craigslist

Post by Mike Waters » May 14th, 2011, 11:21 am

Seems like every year around this time animals like kings, gophers, long nose, and glossys become readily available on craigslist for a small rehoming fee. Usually i will call and inform people that what they are doing is illegal and they are usualy grateful for the information. Today i was blown away when responding to a Bakersfield CA craigs list add for a pair of adult sidewinders for sale or trade for a dslr and other camera equipment. I called the guy and informed him that the sale of navite reptiles was against the law, he said "I know, dont care" then told me he would sale the winders to me for #35 a piece. Im like "dude seriously". He then told me his adress and full name. Is dfg so overwelmed with more important things that this stuff is soo overlooked. Seems like popping CL poachers with $100 fine would be rather lucrative for the state as there are at least 10 wc animals for sale in Bakersfield alone. I think it is terrible that people are cited for photographing herps with no fishing license while things like this go unoticed. Id be interested in hearing if anyone has heard of people getting in trouble for this or if anyone has called the cal tip poaching line and got any kind of response.

Thanks
Mike Waters

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Jason Mintzer
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Re: craigslist

Post by Jason Mintzer » May 14th, 2011, 11:47 am

I couldn't agree more.

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Re: craigslist

Post by kansascrote » May 14th, 2011, 12:16 pm

Hello everyone. I have a collection thaT I have had for years that i got to get rid of. My age is making it hard for me to keep them now. I am letting these animals go to a fair price I believe. 25 eastern diamondbacks born in 2005. 62 southern coperheads various sizes. 31 timber rattles snakes diferant sizes. 19 eastern coral snakes eating anoles. 20 eastern cottonmouths born in 2008. 11 cottonnmouth/copperhead crosses born in 2010. 16 timber/eastern diamondback crosses born in 2009. I am looking for an offer on thee w hole group of snakes please.
Yea I saw this ad a while back and thought BS! I'm sure those are all C/B legal animals to be sold! I see a few of these a year and wonder the same thing, is anyone in LE looking at these ads! I did call KF&G on an ad for 55 or something Red Milks (all C/B but different sizes) and got the old "We will look into that"

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Re: craigslist

Post by Russell_Keys » May 14th, 2011, 12:18 pm

I hadn't thought it till you said it. But yeah, I'd be calling the poaching tip hotline. Isn't there some sort of reward for doing so? Maybe that varies state to state.

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Re: craigslist

Post by Millinex » May 14th, 2011, 3:56 pm

What I think is unfair, is if I keep a native species, and breed them, and put work into the species, I can't sell them here. I have a pair of bulls, one of which is a snow bull, and you can be damn sure I'm selling the babies, regardless of the law. The law should simply state "wild caught is illegal" because penalizing me for enjoying/breeding a local species is 100% dumb.

-Mike

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Re: craigslist

Post by joeysgreen » May 14th, 2011, 4:24 pm

You can't prove an animal is captive bred or wild caught just by looking at it so the banning of a specific species is the only way to go. Sure, your snow bulls are obviously captive bred, but albino's and other variants are occasionally found in the field. So you have a small list of animals you shouldn't be selling, there's another 7000 species you can work with. I come from a province that has an illegal list that reads like a book. We still have a flourishing herpetoculture community full of people enjoying the hobby legally.

We also have a 1-800- report a poacher #, does California have the same?

Ian

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Re: craigslist

Post by FunkyRes » May 14th, 2011, 4:58 pm

I would report it.
I don't look at craigslist anymore, but I use to with frequency, but the underground illegal market that takes place there is just astounding - and not just wildlife.

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Re: craigslist

Post by FunkyRes » May 14th, 2011, 5:01 pm

joeysgreen wrote:Y

We also have a 1-800- report a poacher #, does California have the same?

Ian
Yes it does. I'd have to look it up, but it is what I used to report a Petco selling a Valley Garter (labeled as a Ribbon snake).
That Petco also has Northern Leopard Frogs which I think are technically illegal, but I'm not as worried about that since I know it is highly unlikely they come from native California stock.

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Re: craigslist

Post by Millinex » May 14th, 2011, 6:10 pm

joeysgreen wrote:You can't prove an animal is captive bred or wild caught just by looking at it so the banning of a specific species is the only way to go. Sure, your snow bulls are obviously captive bred, but albino's and other variants are occasionally found in the field. So you have a small list of animals you shouldn't be selling, there's another 7000 species you can work with. I come from a province that has an illegal list that reads like a book. We still have a flourishing herpetoculture community full of people enjoying the hobby legally.

We also have a 1-800- report a poacher #, does California have the same?

Ian
However, the f1 gens will be 100% double het snow/albino. They will however look 100% normal, so I can't "prove" anything, except with documented pictures/etc of copulation, eggs in incubator/hatching etc. I could care less if there are 7000 other species, bulls are perhaps my favorite snakes to own and work with, I'm not changing that for anyone.

-Mike

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Re: craigslist

Post by joeysgreen » May 15th, 2011, 7:02 am

From my understanding in this thread you are within the law to keep bullsnakes; bonus!
If breeding them is against the law, well, you'll do what you do but that doesn't mean the laws arn't their to protect native species. I'd understand completely if someone reported you and wouldn't feel an ounce of pity.

Ian

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 15th, 2011, 7:10 am

Maybe, but California's laws seem sort of asinine too. At the least they could put in exceptions for morphs...I know some albinos are wild collected but I've never heard of a population being wiped out because the albinos and axanthics and hypos were collected. Frankly, a complete prohibition on the commerce in species that are widely captive bred seems more anti-herpetoculturist than pro-wildlife.


It weirds me out; not many people would say you shouldn't be able to use deer, fish, elk, moose etc (use in the case meaning hunting, use of hides, etc), but you move to put a blanket ban on the commerce in herps and people support it...and I promise you, that in most of TX, there's a hell of a lot more snakes than deer--even if the snakes are harder to spot sometimes. I'm 99% sure that most snake/lizard populations can withstand at least some degree of human take....and in cases where most of a given species is CBB (like pits, lampropeltis, etc) it's even harder to argue that a ban is ecologically required.

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Re: craigslist

Post by joeysgreen » May 15th, 2011, 7:36 am

Yes, but if a law is not enforceable, then it's useless. Let us assume that the authorities actually did decide to go onto craigslist and catch them guys trying to sell all the snakes they find in their backyard. They can simply say it's captive bred and unless caught in the act they are innocent until proven guilty.

Now I've never even been to California, so I'm not the one to say if the laws themselves are helping the wildlife. But they are there for a reason, and although it's easier to just break them, there are ways to influence change within them. If in the end, you find you are fighting a losing battle, without the backing of the industry (PIJAC, USARK...), then perhaps it's then time to consider that the laws are best left the way they are.

Ian

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 15th, 2011, 7:44 am

My point is that, regardless, the laws aren't protecting native species when applied to species that are widely (indeed primarily) on the market as captive bred stock--as bullsnakes are. Particularly when applied to things like morphs. Include an exception in the law allowing a long list of morphs to be bought and sold and you've just made it a bit better at least. Scratch the law entirely and I doubt you'd see bullsnake populations take much of a hit--and that'd be better. Let people that have them breed and sale them.
Yes, but if a law is not enforceable, then it's useless.
Doesn't mean you should make a bad law just because it's easier to enforce. It's like Georgia banning corn snakes: WTH?? It doesn't do a damn thing to protect the wild populations, just prohibits a lot of people from having a neat pet snake that was (90% likely) captive bred. It's a junk law, with limited to no benefit, and should be trashed on those grounds.

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Re: craigslist

Post by hellihooks » May 15th, 2011, 8:06 am

Maybe call that "Wild Justice' show... they could do a segment busting craig's list poachers. Lure them to a 'meeting spot'... like busting on-line would be child-molesters... :D
It really is a shame when 'reality-TV' scheme might actually be the only way to get something done, and what a commentary on society at large... all about the 'ratings'... :roll: jim

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 15th, 2011, 8:20 am

Mike: how sure are you that he wasn't a DFG agent? The "I don't care" then offering to go ahead once you'd told him that was illegal...that'd have to be a terminally stupid person.

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Re: craigslist

Post by jimoo742 » May 15th, 2011, 9:57 am

Paul White wrote:
It weirds me out; not many people would say you shouldn't be able to use deer, fish, elk, moose etc (use in the case meaning hunting, use of hides, etc), but you move to put a blanket ban on the commerce in herps and people support it...and I promise you, that in most of TX, there's a hell of a lot more snakes than deer--even if the snakes are harder to spot sometimes. I'm 99% sure that most snake/lizard populations can withstand at least some degree of human take....and in cases where most of a given species is CBB (like pits, lampropeltis, etc) it's even harder to argue that a ban is ecologically required.
Yes, but everywhere I have lived the law prevents you from selling deer meat, fish caught (if you don't have a commercial license), etc. For good reason. Keeping a couple as pets I don't mind, especially since it can get children really interested in nature, but commercial exploitation is something else entirely.

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Re: craigslist

Post by muskiemagnet » May 15th, 2011, 10:21 am

Paul White wrote:Mike: how sure are you that he wasn't a DFG agent? The "I don't care" then offering to go ahead once you'd told him that was illegal...that'd have to be a terminally stupid person.

i thought the same thing.

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Re: craigslist

Post by chris_mcmartin » May 15th, 2011, 11:07 am

jimoo742 wrote:Yes, but everywhere I have lived the law prevents you from selling deer meat, fish caught (if you don't have a commercial license), etc. For good reason. Keeping a couple as pets I don't mind, especially since it can get children really interested in nature, but commercial exploitation is something else entirely.
But you can have a "deer lease" where basically you're lucky enough to have a large acreage, feed the deer, raise monster bucks, and get people to pay you big money--BIG money--to hunt those deer. You're essentially selling the deer meat, just one step removed from the actual process.

There are commercial licenses for breeding herps in many states also. Only in that case, you're not CONSUMING the resource, you are MAKING MORE. Small difference in how the resource is being used.

Some people have a passion, and talent, for breeding herps. It's somewhat ironic how some states prohibit people from making more NATIVE snakes, but don't regulate (or less stringently regulate) the EXOTIC snakes, then complain when the exotics become a problem.

Of course, the easy (lazy) solution is to ban all herp keeping. I find that unacceptable, and lazy as I said. Texas even has a FAQ on the TPWD site that has the "frequently asked" question (paraphrased here), "why can't I sell my fourth-generation, captive-bred TX banded gecko?" with the answer that LE can't tell the difference between wild-caught (legal anyway, and I THINK they're still legal to sell with the proper permit) and captive-bred. Never mind the meticulous person who keeps detailed breeding/sales records and the buyers who keep their receipts.


P.S. Paul White, I think CA does have special regs governing albinos, e.g. if I recall correctly, there are no limits on possessing albinos of certain species that otherwise have a limit of 2 or something to that effect.

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 15th, 2011, 1:43 pm

that's good at least. I personally prefer normals most of the time, but regulating morphs is double dumb.

As someone who has not searched for banded geckos: are they rare, and are they commonly captive bred?

I've always wanted to run a deer lease...mostly because it'd be a way to have a large hunk of land that wasn't as much a burden (I figure I could use the lease fees ot pay the taxes). Then I could set up board/tin lines all over ;)

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Re: craigslist

Post by chris_mcmartin » May 15th, 2011, 2:17 pm

Paul White wrote:As someone who has not searched for banded geckos: are they rare, and are they commonly captive bred?
No on both counts. They're abundant when searching in the right places, in the right conditions, or so I'm told. I've only found two TX geckos my entire life despite lots of searching, but I've found quite a few western bandeds. And I've lucked out and found a Big Bend gecko too.
I've always wanted to run a deer lease...mostly because it'd be a way to have a large hunk of land that wasn't as much a burden (I figure I could use the lease fees ot pay the taxes). Then I could set up board/tin lines all over ;)
You should join Herp Conservation Unlimited. I think we've kicked that idea around once or twice.

Some folks say that's part of the rationale behind the TX road ban...drive (pardon the pun) us herpers onto private land, where we'll allegedly shell out the big bucks to herp. Never mind that you can't exactly groom West Texas land to produce "monster" alterna or other species like you can do to varying extent with deer, exotic mammals, or even dove and quail. I think the folks who think herpers will pay $100 a day (or more!) to herp land where the herps are widely dispersed (as opposed to shining cuts on the ROW) still believe the proven-false articles surrounding Operation Rockcut back in the 90s, talking about thousand-dollar snakes being poached in the Big Bend area. I, and probably many other herpers, spend a thousand bucks on a west TX trip, but I took no animals, for I can get one of my friends to give me an alterna (though not necessarily the highest-demand locality animals).

But I digress.

re: the craigslist ads; it almost seems like an LE troll, as someone else pointed out. Entrapment.

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 15th, 2011, 3:16 pm

not entrapment if you make the first contact and they're not coercive. It may be sort of bleh, but it's not entrapment. Otherwise you couldn't ever run prostitution stings.

You've mentioned that rationale before but I still have a hard time thinking that THEY'D think we'd spend that sort of money to have a place to herp (on top of road expenses).

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Re: craigslist

Post by FunkyRes » May 15th, 2011, 4:35 pm

joeysgreen wrote:From my understanding in this thread you are within the law to keep bullsnakes; bonus!
If breeding them is against the law, well, you'll do what you do but that doesn't mean the laws arn't their to protect native species. I'd understand completely if someone reported you and wouldn't feel an ounce of pity.

Ian
Breeding (and selling) Bullsnakes is legal in California with a native species propagation permit.

Albino bullsnakes do not need a permit to be bred and sold, but non albinos do.

Personally I do not think a permit should be required for P catenifer subspecies (except Santa Cruz Island), Lampropeltis species, Thamnophis species (except San Francisco), Sceloporus species, etc. but the law is the law.

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 15th, 2011, 6:01 pm

Do they consider snow albino, or is the exception only for amelanistic specimens? (for that matter, does snow contain the amel gene? I'm not up on bull morphs)

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Re: craigslist

Post by FunkyRes » May 15th, 2011, 6:22 pm

Paul White wrote:Do they consider snow albino, or is the exception only for amelanistic specimens? (for that matter, does snow contain the amel gene? I'm not up on bull morphs)
The regs say having pink eyes and lacking melanin are exempt from needing a propagation permit.

I'm not sure what "snow" means in pituophis world, but if it is a double morph including pink eyed albinism, then it is exempt. Hets that are not albino however would not be exempt.

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Re: craigslist

Post by Crimson King » May 15th, 2011, 6:51 pm

I've heard of LE sting activities here in FL. but usually they're targeting the people with ROC, I believe...
:Mark

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Re: craigslist

Post by Mike Waters » May 15th, 2011, 7:57 pm

Paul White wrote:Mike: how sure are you that he wasn't a DFG agent? The "I don't care" then offering to go ahead once you'd told him that was illegal...that'd have to be a terminally stupid person.
Back from herping and look what i missed :lol:

Girl answered the phone kids yelling in the background, wanting to trade for camera equiment. im guessing terminally stupid.

doesnt matter if they are cb or not, you may not sell native rattlesnakes or any rattle snakes in CA, native albinos excluded.

To sell a native king gopher rosy you must have a Propogation permit. craiglisters do not, first question i ask.

If some of this was covered, sorry, just got home and didnt have time to read all posts. back in the morning!

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Re: craigslist

Post by Millinex » May 16th, 2011, 12:00 am

Paul White wrote:Do they consider snow albino, or is the exception only for amelanistic specimens? (for that matter, does snow contain the amel gene? I'm not up on bull morphs)
A snow is a combination morph of an albino, and a whitesided morph. Basically pure white with slight patterning on the dorsal. The only thing I'm glad about, is the fact that my morphs are highly visible and could not happen in nature, and I paper the hell out of my hets, some I'll sell, some I'll keep. Frankly the law is extremely under-enforced and I doubt they would waste much time trying to pursue legal action against someone who can prove they are captive bred, and you'd have to legitimately stupid to think these where wild caught individuals..

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Re: craigslist

Post by hellihooks » May 16th, 2011, 6:18 am

Not only can you not sell any Native Ca crote, you can't possess non-native crotes... so wc natives are your only option, unless someone gifts you cb natives.
Where you been Mikey? Wanna ride to the Diablo Range survey, if it's moved to the 28 or 9th?

"not entrapment if you make the first contact and they're not coercive. It may be sort of bleh, but it's not entrapment. Otherwise you couldn't ever run prostitution stings."

Whenever I see a prostitution sting going on in Victum-Ville, I go up to the undercover 'ladies', and talk to them about Jesus... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 16th, 2011, 6:32 am

Not only can you not sell any Native Ca crote, you can't possess non-native crotes... so wc natives are your only option, unless someone gifts you cb natives.
can someone say self defeating law? :?

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Re: craigslist

Post by Don Cascabel » May 16th, 2011, 6:42 am

I don't think that law was designed to protect native rattlesnakes, rather it was designed to protect dumb people and their neighbors from things like Cobras, Mambas and Rhinoceros Vipers. While I certainly don't agree with California's non-native venomous law ( I am against any laws that protect dumb people from themselves, go Darwin!!!)... I think that is where it originated.

Cheers,

Chris

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Re: craigslist

Post by hellihooks » May 16th, 2011, 7:08 am

Exotic hots are one thing (no thx!) but if I can keep Atrox/Helli... I think I can handle (not literally) a copperhead or Df. Wht. Speck... :roll: jim

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 16th, 2011, 7:58 am

I am against any laws that protect dumb people from themselves, go Darwin
That is one statement I am 100% behind :lol:

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Re: craigslist

Post by Rick Staub » May 16th, 2011, 9:32 am

FunkyRes wrote:
Breeding (and selling) Bullsnakes is legal in California with a native species propagation permit.

Albino bullsnakes do not need a permit to be bred and sold, but non albinos do.
Bullsnakes are not native to Calif and therefore do not require a permit whether they are albinos or normals.

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Re: craigslist

Post by joeysgreen » May 16th, 2011, 9:38 am

The problems with morph's being in the legistlation is that they change, and new ones are made all the time; faster then legistlation changes. Nevertheless, I agree that it seems silly to ban such wildly obvious captive lines.

In the end, whatever laws are in existance (aside from being a lawless community), the responsible people that do keep the meticulour records, and understand the problems with over collecting and releasing captives are the ones that pay the most. It is the average, to less than average numbnutts that create the need for regulation of some sort. It is these people that we need to keep in mind when deciding if a law stands a chance at being effective.

Ian

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 16th, 2011, 10:21 am

The problem with that is that said numbnutts are less likely to care about the laws in the first place, and laws are pretty much reactive by nature. You may punish Nutjob A for collecting and selling 200 wild bullsnakes, but you can't/shouldn't put the bullsnakes BACK in the wild if they've come into contact with other snakes. So you're still out those snakes (and this is assuming that most species can't handle take, which I'm not sure of at all--again, we have take of plenty of fish and mammals and birds that do rather well).

I'm a lot more happy with just banning collecting in protected lands (and having rangers/PW agents out patrolling those lands). If land isn't protected, it doesn't matter if you take out the bullsnakes for the pet trade or the bulldozer takes them out for the shopping mall...they're still gone.

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Re: craigslist

Post by FunkyRes » May 16th, 2011, 11:16 am

Rick Staub wrote:
FunkyRes wrote:
Breeding (and selling) Bullsnakes is legal in California with a native species propagation permit.

Albino bullsnakes do not need a permit to be bred and sold, but non albinos do.
Bullsnakes are not native to Calif and therefore do not require a permit whether they are albinos or normals.
Doh! :oops:

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 16th, 2011, 11:22 am

heh I didn't even parse that. Does CA do it's regs at the subspecies or species level?

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Re: craigslist

Post by FunkyRes » May 16th, 2011, 12:21 pm

Paul White wrote:heh I didn't even parse that. Does CA do it's regs at the subspecies or species level?
Subspecies level

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Re: craigslist

Post by hellihooks » May 16th, 2011, 12:33 pm

FunkyRes wrote:
Rick Staub wrote:
FunkyRes wrote:
Breeding (and selling) Bullsnakes is legal in California with a native species propagation permit.

Albino bullsnakes do not need a permit to be bred and sold, but non albinos do.
Bullsnakes are not native to Calif and therefore do not require a permit whether they are albinos or normals.
Doh! :oops:
I was gonna say... :roll: :lol: :lol: My Chi-go bulls are mating right now... :D jim

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Re: craigslist

Post by chris drake » May 16th, 2011, 5:39 pm

I know this is post was about natives on Craigslist but I just saw this add on the Houston Craigslist for a huge retic and this gaboon viper. This is the responsible pic he posted. He does specify you have to have a license to buy it but then uses this pic. I would say even though he is hooking it it looks to be in strike range of his BARE FOOT. It might just be the fish trick and he is holding it out but to me it looks like its just hanging down in front of him.

Image

Chris

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Re: craigslist

Post by Paul White » May 16th, 2011, 6:12 pm

I'm voting fish trick. I didn't know TX required a permit for non native hots...I knew the retics (since I keep them).

look at the tiles, if they're the normal 16" squares that snake is >2 feet from his feet.

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Re: craigslist

Post by TimCO » May 18th, 2011, 4:31 pm

Forget CL. Look at all the idiots on KS.

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Re: craigslist

Post by herper79 » May 18th, 2011, 8:14 pm

DFG will do somethig about it. I have reported some and they have been busted, sometimes multiple offenses.
Nick

Rick Staub
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Re: craigslist

Post by Rick Staub » May 18th, 2011, 9:39 pm


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rpecora
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Re: craigslist

Post by rpecora » May 18th, 2011, 10:08 pm

FunkyRes wrote:
Paul White wrote:heh I didn't even parse that. Does CA do it's regs at the subspecies or species level?
Subspecies level
Not with all of them it seems. If that were the case we could keep four boa's, and twenty gophersnakes. Funny thing is in the regs regarding gophersnakes they list them as Pituophis melanoleucus and not Pituophis catenifer. Not sure which is correct on that one.

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Re: craigslist

Post by FunkyRes » May 18th, 2011, 10:41 pm

rpecora wrote:
FunkyRes wrote:
Paul White wrote:heh I didn't even parse that. Does CA do it's regs at the subspecies or species level?
Subspecies level
Not with all of them it seems. If that were the case we could keep four boa's, and twenty gophersnakes. Funny thing is in the regs regarding gophersnakes they list them as Pituophis melanoleucus and not Pituophis catenifer. Not sure which is correct on that one.
Bag limit is by species (with feeder lizard exception, where it is by group) but only applies to native subspecies.

Pituophis melanoleucus was formerly accepted species that included our gopher snakes, the regs just haven't been updated to currently accepted taxonomy.

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Re: craigslist

Post by erik loza » May 18th, 2011, 10:43 pm

That's not a bad looking zonata, actually.

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rpecora
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Re: craigslist

Post by rpecora » May 19th, 2011, 7:02 am

Bag limit is by species (with feeder lizard exception, where it is by group) but only applies to native subspecies.
So did you contradict yourself or am I missing something?

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Fundad
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Re: craigslist

Post by Fundad » May 19th, 2011, 7:19 am

He is using one of Gary Nafis pics too.. :roll: My boa pictures have been used on craigslist before too..

Even with copyright Brian Hinds right on the pictures.. I send them threats of lawsuit, and the pics are removed.


Fundad

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