Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup mentality

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ahockenberry
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Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup mentality

Post by ahockenberry »

Hi folks

You are all I am sure aware of the Rattlesnake Roundups that occur in Oklahoma, Texas etc. My question is this - do people really believe that any species of animal or reptile can withstand such a sustained and heavy assault on its population year after year and survive?

Once upon a time Bison roamed the prairies in numbers too large to count. Now they exist in little protected populations. Elk once existed east of the Mississippi, now many decades after the last one was killed, they are being re-introduced.

I suppose in places like Texas, Rattlesnakes have been seen as the enemy by ranchers, farmers and the like, however, they do perform a very valuable role in the ecosystem -preying on mice and vermin.

I find it very interesting that in the northeast USA where rattlesnakes and other snake species are in decline, Lyme Disease is growing exponentially and there seem to be an abundance of rodents which I believe are primary hosts and deer are secondary.

Perhaps it is a testimony to the Rattlesnake's ability to survive virtually anything, however, every species has its breaking point. In discussions with people, I find it interesting that people tend to see nature as virtually inexhaustible - which is why they will poach or ignore their limit while fishing or kill indescriminately-

Anyway, I am rambling at this point - but would like to hear feedback from anyone - expecially if you are from one of the states that host these roundups - perhaps these roundups are not as sinister as I think they are - and the carnival atmosphere that goes along with all of this killing harkens back to ancient Rome - and I wonder where/how Fish and Game condones these slaughters? (again, perhaps not all of them are killed- I don't really know)

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Ashley Hockenberry (mr)
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Scott Waters
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Scott Waters »

There is no lobby for these snakes, not enough to make sense to those involved anyway. That is why everything exists, or does not exist......lobby. We can hate these roundups all we want, ask important questions, point out the obvious reasons these are, at the very least cruel.....but none of that matters without a political lobby.

People hate PETA for their positions, but you have to give them credit for atleast ONE thing. They know how to organize, raise money, and lobby. We can hate them all we want as well, but we HAVE to respect their org. I'm not a supporter of PETA's tactics at all, but I DO respect them politically. See my point?

So until we organize with orgs like USARK (whom Herp Nation supports), we have almost no chance. Nowadays it is ALL about the lobby.

The other factor is that clearly these states and local communities support these roundups. THAT in itself is a hurdle of mountainous proportions. The community doesn't have enough reason to stop these slaughters, so they will continue. Oh, and I can guarantee that when an "outsider" shows up at those slaughters, the community becomes even more determined to "stop that goddamn outsider" from "telling them what to do". See what I mean?

So it goes WAY BEYOND what is "right and wrong". It is political, meaning actual politics and the politics of a given community. Logic is NOT going to stop anything, not at that level. It comes down to economic and political impact. The elected officials will simply watch polling numbers and act accordingly. The only time you see a politician defy polling numbers is when the numbers a REAL close to one side or the other.

What is the "answer" to stopping all of this? Good luck. :) Until these communities give a crap (and they don't), nothing will happen. They get $ from these events, and money runs the show in this country.
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M Wolverton
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by M Wolverton »

Since I am most interested in rattlesnakes above other herps, I am going to have a natural emotional aversion to round-ups. But step back and put them into perspective and they really aren't much different than a fishing derby, except that the target fish usually can sustain more take.

However, the big round-ups in Texas and OK that target prairie rattlesnakes and western diamondbacks have been going on for decades and they have at most affected the populations closest to the community where the round-up occurs. They haven't put much of a dent in either species otherwise. Both species are routinely killed on site everywhere in their range, it's been that way for years. That coupled with habitat loss, road mortality, etc., and they remain two of the more dirt common US rattlesnakes. It seems pretty evident that they can easily sustain past and current levels of take. Other species are obviously less capable of sustaining take.

Another problem with targeting round-ups for elimination is that in doing so you are also targeting a large portion of field herpers, because many of them collect what they find, be it a bunch or just once in a great while. While it isn't on the scale of an annual round-up, it is take for entertainment or money just the same. To the population it doesn't matter whether you keep it as a pet, breed them in captivity, or kill and and grill 'em.

So the question then is, is the emotional aversion of a handful of herpers important enough to warrant shutting these things down? Not really, IMO.
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croelke
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by croelke »

People need to stop worrying about roundups so much. I was part of a hearing in Texas gathering input on making gassing illegal. Some of the people there supporting roundups lamented how in the 1970's in Texas, there were about 50 roundups. Now there are 7 and every one but Sweetwater has declining attendance. My guess is that whether we do anything or not, roundups are relatively quickly going to become a thing of the past, with the possible exception of Sweetwater, which will survive as a novelty. Once gassing is illegal everywhere the snakes occur, which will be very soon, and we get rid of the gassing culture, which will happen through enforcement, I don't have a problem with roundups harvesting some Western Diamondback Rattlesnakes in a non-destructive way. Would I prefer they not exist. yes. Would I prefer they not kill rattlesnakes in huge numbers, yes. Do I think harvest of C. atrox at some level is sustainable, absolutely. Just like we harvest deer, turkeys, waterfowl, etc., we need to keep an open mind about sustainable harvest for reptiles and amphibians. Just my opinion., but don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're going out of style.

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ahockenberry
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by ahockenberry »

Thanks Corey - wow, I am glad you set us straight there - I did not know these roundups were in decline - I was beginning to think it was going in the other direction and that they were growing in popularity and that there would be one in every state (except Alaska and Hawaii haha)

I did not know gassing was one of the main techniques used to capture and corral them

Also, it seems that people are encouraged (tourists) to go out and try their hand at hunting snakes, capturing them and bringing them in - that does not sound like a good idea.

I am not an anti-hunting person by any means and I would imagine that there is a legal bag or possession limit for rattlesnakes in these states -

But, you don't know these things unless you ask the questions - which is why I like to hear from people who actually live there and know first hand so thanks for your input.
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by M Wolverton »

Round-ups have declined considerably, there used to be many all over the US, we even had a few here in WA.
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Scott Waters
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Scott Waters »

Gassing is the biggest problem I would have with roundups. Actual take in numbers, etc, I don't know. Have there been studies done to prove or disprove the take-impact on regional populations?
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by ahockenberry »

Here is the part I don't understand - how can there be enough rattlesnakes in one place in Texas to support year after year of harvesting thousands of rattlesnakes ? Are there millions of rattlesnakes in one county in Texas?

Obviously I am herping in the wrong place - I should go to Texas - everything is big there!

Okay, according to the promotional information - there are 15,000 pounds - if each snake weighs a pound or two.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.texas-best.com/places/texas-festivals/
Sweetwater Jaycees Rattlesnake Roundup
Sweetwater, Texas
Annual event for over 30 years. Attracts 35,000 visitors annually. This is the original and largest of the rattlesnake roundups. 15,000 pounds of rattlesnake and plenty of other activities.
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Paul White »

My problem is as much in how the animals are treated as anything else. They're inhumane as hell. Harvesting sustainable levels for food, pets, etc doesn't bother me, but extreme maltreatment does.
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Scott Waters »

True. It is one thing to kill a deer (as someone compared it to earlier), but it is another to have a rally, and have deer perform for you as you are killing them. THAT is totally different than a "sustainable harvest" argument. The bottom line is that what they do is cruel. Its not simply "hunting". They make a spectacle of it. FAR from humble hunting.
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by BradB »

How many EDBs are posted from mainland Ga.??? Not many. Why? Roundups

I can't speak on the roundups outside of Ga, but the ones in Ga are one of the many reasons why EDBs are struggling here. Not to mention how many ignorant rednecks openly talk about gassing tortoise burrows and have no idea or don't even care about what they are doing.

Just my 2 cents
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by ahockenberry »

Eastern Diamondbacks are killed in roundups? Gadzooks! Aren't they an endangered species and protected by law?
I thought their numbers were terribly low in Georgia and Florida?
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

.
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Brian Hubbs »

ahockenberry: Rattlesnakes are very numerous in the west and some counties in West TX are very large, so to answer your question-yes, there could be over a million Diamondbacks in one large county...and probably close to 3-10 per acre of suitable habitat. Smaller counties will have smaller numbers, but overall the total will be significant and not easy to eradicate. You can find the counties on google earth, search for the total acreage of each county on the net, and estimate the abundance for yourself based on undeveloped land amounts...especially along stream courses and in canyons. I don't know where you live, but in coastal southern CA the helleri number approximately 10 per acre in the grassland, only outnumbered by the CA Kingsnakes (20-40 per acre) and Ringnecks (indeterminable large numbers in certain places), and possibly Night Snakes.

By the way, these numbers are documented in my book, "Common Kingsnakes" - see: http://www.mountainkingsnake.com
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Paul White »

his post was specifically about Eastern Diamondbacks. As far as westerns...yeah, one of my more common finds. Always like seeing them too, something about rattlesnakes is just amazing.
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by ahockenberry »

Thanks Brian
Well - that answers my question and is pretty amazing really that there are that many - and yes, I guess there are parts of Texas which have vast tracts of land which are relatively uninhabited and undeveloped.

In any case, Rattlesnakes are a force to be reckoned with and have their place in nature.
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by dthor68 »

Croelke & M Wolverton, maybe roundups dont effect your western populations, they do in the east! The roundup in Claxton Ga. has nearly wiped out the EDB. Add road kill, collecting and a little bit of habitat destruction(barrier islands), how they are not extinct is a wonder to me. One thing that I do know is those involved in the hunt will travel to S Carolina and Florida to get animals. I also know that they take any snake they find. They get a lot of Canebreaks now that the EDB is nearly gone. Personally, I doubt that your western populations are fine. I have not paid much attention to any roundup for several years. At that time they were finding less and less of them for the roundups. Maybe the people stopped showing up because they were running out. I do agree with M Wolverton on one thing, collecting is not much differant.

I find it interesting that people tend to see nature as virtually inexhaustible - which is why they will poach or ignore their limit while fishing or kill indescriminately-

Well said Ashley.
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croelke
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by croelke »

Come out and herp Texas anywhere west of Fort Worth. Atrox are one of the most common snakes. I herp one of the most easily accessible den areas that has been hit hard by collectors for roundups (it's less than an hour away from Sweetwater) and without trying usually find somewhere between 10-20 in a day, of all size and age classes. This is the old East vs. West argument. I realize EDB's are in real trouble and need as much protection as they can get, but I feel the Western Diamondback in Texas may as well be a white tailed deer. There's certainly more rattlesnakes. Without some scope of the vast tracts of land, very few people who have only herped the East realize how much land there is and how many snakes there are on it.

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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Scott Waters »

Good point, Corey, and I agree with you on the numbers and the gassing regulations. If they are holding up, then hunting is apparently not a problem. But that's not the issue, at least not for me.

The comparision to deer has been made, but deer are not captured, tortured, and mutilated for public pleasure. If sustainable harvests are working, that's great, but that is different than the spectacle made out of the obvious cruelty towards rattlesnakes. If it were as simple as, "they are like deer", I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they are not like deer, not in terms of "hunting" protocol. I'm far from anti-collection or anti-hunting, to the contrary, but I do draw a clear distinction between hunting and outright torture for public entertainment. I can't think of one hunter I know who tortures his or her bounty. They hunt respectfully, take what they should, and respect that bounty at all times. Any valid hunter would find these roundups beyond disgusting. Not because of the take numbers, necessarily, but again......the cruelty.

This is not hunting. This is cruelty on display to make a dollar in the name of......whatever it is the contributions are going to. Big difference, in my opinion.

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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Buzztail1 »

The balance of nature is so far out of whack everywhere than "man" moves in, sometimes it is difficult to see the bigger view.
So I have just a few points to ponder.
If any area supports, say 1,000 rattlesnakes (EDB/WDB/helleri/whatever) and people move in and kill them off to the point that they are now sustaining at half tha number, say 500. I wonder what happens to the rodent population that the missing 500 used to eat.
I keep reading that gassing will soon be outlawed in the states that hold roundups and that will cut back on the numbers enough to drive the roundups out of business. Well, that hasn't happened in Georgia. Gassing is illegal and yet it still goes on. Unless the Game Warden catches them doing it nothing is going to change that mentality. And before anyone points out the roundups that have converted to other types of festivals in Georgia, I live here. It was not outlawing gassing that changed them - it was the desire to move on to any other type of festival that might generate more interest and more money.
Protecting EDBs in their natural range?
You're kidding right?
You honestly think that any judge will fine someone or put them in jail for killing a dangerously venomous snake that was in their yard or on their property where their kids play/their dogs run/etc.? I don't see that happening in my lifetime. Unlike up north where the Massasaugas are protected, rattlesnake habitat and human habitation are extremely close to one another here in EDB range. I remove EDBs from people's back yards every year.
I believe that roundups should be outlawed. I believe that the way snakes are treated at roundups would not be tolerated for any other animal on earth. That alone should scream volumes at law-making bodies and animal rights groups and yet, somehow they continue. Just another thing that "civilized people" are afraid of and so we must be protected from them no matter what.
Just my personal opinions condensed down so as to not overrun the entire thread.
R/
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by dthor68 »

croelke wrote:Come out and herp Texas anywhere west of Fort Worth. Atrox are one of the most common snakes. I herp one of the most easily accessible den areas that has been hit hard by collectors for roundups (it's less than an hour away from Sweetwater) and without trying usually find somewhere between 10-20 in a day, of all size and age classes. This is the old East vs. West argument. I realize EDB's are in real trouble and need as much protection as they can get, but I feel the Western Diamondback in Texas may as well be a white tailed deer. There's certainly more rattlesnakes. Without some scope of the vast tracts of land, very few people who have only herped the East realize how much land there is and how many snakes there are on it.

Corey Roelke
My bad Corey. if you are finding 10-20 a day than I would have to say they are doing pretty good. It still ain't right! I will never be alright with it, but I will never get PETA about it either!
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by ahockenberry »

Karl
I think you are on the right track here - protecting people and educating them at the same time.

" I remove EDBs from people's back yards every year."

Here in Ontario - Eastern Massasaugas are protected - actually I am sure a lot die from incursion into their territory by bulldozing, building, and get run over by cars while crossing the road, but I have to say - there is a real awareness about protecting them here and people are fairly serious about it - however, they are a threatened species, so perhaps they had to become threatened first in order to be protected in a more serious fashion.

But every little bit helps- I have a friend in Arizona who does the same thing and he gets several calls a week to remove snakes from people's yards as well as the local golf course.
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croelke
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by croelke »

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I do agree we need to just flat get rid of them and outlaw them. That's never going to happen in Texas. During the gassing hearing, one very expressive individual, who was well spoken, actually said, verbatim, "If the State of Texas puts the welfare of some bug (referencing endangered karst dwelling inverts) above the economic welfare of hardworking Texas, then this bill banning gassing is like putting a knife right through the heart of Texas." Another person said, "As these roundups decline, we are just going to see rattlesnakes in every carport in West Texas." The attitude is so hard to change on an animal people view as vermin, and very dangerous vermin as that. Like I said, I wish we could shut them down and stop the gassing/torture/bloodsport, but our best bet, at least in Texas, is to let them die out on their own or fight them through education of younger generations. Young, educated people are far less likely to be interested in or even care about these sorts of things.

Corey Roelke
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by FunkyRes »

Slavery was in decline before the civil war, and economic hardship of a south without slavery was indeed a very common argument put forth by the south, even though slavery was even in decline there.

Now I'm not saying rattlesnake roundups are kin to slavery, but I do see the point that they are in radical decline and since it isn't as morally reprehensible as slavery, maybe the best course of action is to let it die a natural death as attitudes of the population towards these kinds of things naturally change.

The towns where they still take place are going to have to economically adapt either way, but if an outside group forces it upon them, they have someone to shake an angry fist at. If they die all on their own, then changing times are all they have to shake an angry fist at.

There's enough political division in this country, much of it regional division, that adding yet another point of contention that is naturally rectifying itself anyway may not be wise.
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by ahockenberry »

Well guys - thanks for putting things in perspective. I suppose in the grand scheme of things the roundups may not be putting a huge dent into the overall population of rattlesnakes in Texas at least.

And ranchers, cattle people, farmers and other folk have their own views toward rattlesnakes in general which will probably not change anytime soon.

However, I am in complete agreement with Scott on the mentality that exists at these 'festivals' which is something primal and a bit sadistic - whenever you single out one species of animal and demonize it and try to kill it off in order to 'feel superior' or have a good time - you have issues.


Fear of snakes is almost irrational - I don't have any statistics to prove it but I think the vast majority of venemous snake bites are as a result of people trying to handle the snake or otherwise 'kill' it and I read somewhere that many of these folks are young males who have had too much alcohol.

I think in time the roundups will be attended by fewer and fewer people with the possible exception of Sweetwater, which is kind of what the town has become know for.

Ironically, there are so many 'invader species' which are entering into the United States and are doing REAL damage - like feral hogs, snakeheads, grass carp, cane toads, and the like - yet no one seems too worried about them !
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Paul White »

In TX we do worry about feral hogs. They're shoot on sight for farmers and ranchers here in the panhandle.
They're also tasty :)
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by FunkyRes »

ahockenberry wrote: I think in time the roundups will be attended by fewer and fewer people with the possible exception of Sweetwater, which is kind of what the town has become know for.
Kind of like the frog jumping contest in Angel's Camp.
If I recall, they have exceptions to the DF&G rules in that they are allowed to catch, jump their frogs, and then release them afterwards - even though release of captive animals generally requires DF&G permission.

What they should do with the bullfrogs (most common species there) is catch, have their contest, and then have frog legs for dinner :D
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Brian Hubbs »

I think me and my BB gun will pay a visit to all the streams around Angel's Camp...
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by KingCam »

FunkyRes wrote:What they should do with the bullfrogs (most common species there) is catch, have their contest, and then have frog legs for dinner :D
mmmmmmm, frog legs and beer!! :beer:
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Daryl Eby »

FunkyRes wrote:The towns where they still take place are going to have to economically adapt either way, but if an outside group forces it upon them, they have someone to shake an angry fist at. If they die all on their own, then changing times are all they have to shake an angry fist at.

There's enough political division in this country, much of it regional division, that adding yet another point of contention [to a situation] that is naturally rectifying itself anyway may not be wise.
Hmmm. Good point Funky.
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Yeah, once in awhile he actually makes sense... :lol:
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Re: Question - Conservation versus Rattlesnake Roundup menta

Post by muskiemagnet »

good stuff here. nice to hear that the issue is declining. education is definitely the key to making such silly traditions go away. unfortunately, many fears still permeate the culture. the unknown is always scary. that's just how life works. the more we can educate, the better.

"This little snake and all his kind must be sacrificed to 'tame the wilderness', to make it safe for man-man, who can 'tame' everything but himself; from himself he can never be safe."

reading these words from carl kauffeld always chokes me up a little. not as much for the snakes as for the state of humanity. maybe he was a bit over-zealous in regards to his collecting practices, but you can tell by his writings that in his later years he was leaning more towards conservation. i believe his evolution was very similar to the evolution many of us have felt.

it will be an up-hill battle that will never be won. just keep fighting.

-ben
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