Rattlers no.56

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ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

vincemartino wrote: Fact of the matter is that these studies, no matter how much you think it is detrimental and ridiculous, are needed to garner protection for these snakes by our government(s)..
Good point.

I never called such studies ridiculous(and how 'detrimental' they are is uncertain and depends so much on the quality of the entire operating process and the animal's recovery process) , I just think such side effects are often overlooked -these studies are definitely not without flaws.
Conversely, what can be learned without radio telemetry is huge; underrated and often overlooked today.
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brick911
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by brick911 »

Justin... Did I miss something? What is the no.56?
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

brick911 wrote:Justin... Did I miss something? What is the no.56?

Lol good catch man......ahh,inside joke.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by brick911 »

I was thinking it was something cryptic. I thought there might be some secret betting ring on the amount of posts to a thread about timbers, and 56 was the over/under.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by heavenscloud »

ugh wrote:
heavenscloud wrote:Well, yeah, a key part of the last post was that it took five minutes to come up with the study design. Of course it's flawed. Disturbing the control group probably isn't the best way to study the effects of disturbance, is it? My bad. :lol:

Brandon
well why’d you use that to make your point? Lol
Yes, one part of my example was obviously flawed, but that doesn't invalidate my point.

Peace out.


Brandon
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by incuhead2000 »

ugh wrote: Some of us choose not to seek publication, preferring not to draw more attention to our study sites
Will you be publishing any findings at all? If so, will you publish anything independently or provide your research to someone else that may use it and publish it? If not and the research is just going to be wasted, what is the point at all other than just enjoying the outdoors and the herps we find out there. I'm not interested in any of "your spots" but I would be interested to read anything published other than the back and forth on the forum.

-Mike
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by muskiemagnet »

ugh wrote:You can’t appreciate the value of what I do(I get it, I’m fine with that). Of course you don’t, you can’t relate to it as you have no experience in the field with the animals we discuss here, though you feel an irresistible urge to criticize my observations and findings.

Challenging or questioning another’s findings is to be expected, but my methods are solid and anyway who the F are you to doubt that?


WHAT DO YOU DO??????????????????????????????????????????????


all i hear come out of your mouth is a bunch of "i have all this data to support my claims that we(herpers) have serious impacts on timber den activity".

you just stated that challenging other's findings is to be expected. i am challenging you because i have no reason to believe you considering you seem to be basing this notion on your observations.

i am extremely interested in any information you may have gained regarding the subject. i to think we can hurt populations by too much herping. i have no reason to believe we do however, because i have not studied it. if you are doing work in the field related to this topic. please share!!!!!! this is about the snakes.

i am not saying you are wrong.

it just seems at this point that you are just a giant prick who thinks he's better than everyone else. you question other's experience related to timbers. you have no clue. i don't want to believe this of you, but i feel i have no choice. show us some of your findings. you don't need to disclose locations in order to do this. your study is in no peril of being contaminated. again i say. put your money where your mouth is.

-ben
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

incuhead2000 wrote:
ugh wrote: Some of us choose not to seek publication, preferring not to draw more attention to our study sites
Will you be publishing any findings at all? If so, will you publish anything independently or provide your research to someone else that may use it and publish it? If not and the research is just going to be wasted, what is the point at all other than just enjoying the outdoors and the herps we find out there. I'm not interested in any of "your spots" but I would be interested to read anything published other than the back and forth on the forum.

-Mike

No immediate plans to. If a situation arises where I felt it would actually benefit a population of snakes to do so, then sure I’d have to give it real consideration. Until then, what purpose would it serve to publish? Sure I share my notes/findings with certain trusted friends/fellow herpers, some of which are published biologists that I trust to use my data as they see fit.

Mike I’m a little surprised at your implication that my personal research would be wasted if I didn’t publish it. I hope I am just misunderstanding you because I think that’s a really disappointing outlook for herpers to have, as if publication is some ultimate goal we should all be striving for, or that it’s the only way we can benefit the herps or their habitat, which of course is completely ridiculous. That point has been discussed plenty in the northeast chapter, ‘what do you do to help your local herp population’ and things of that nature,at this time I don’t recall the thread’s title though.
What about increasing my personal knowledge/understanding of these creatures? So I can take an active role in educating others about them by responsibly/selectively sharing what I’ve learned,with individual citizens,government agencies, and organizations that interact with and have both a direct and indirect effect on the herps' lives ?
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by VanAR »

So I can take an active role in educating others about them by responsibly/selectively sharing what I’ve learned,with individual citizens,government agencies, and organizations that interact with and have both a direct and indirect effect on the herps' lives ?
If you want to have an active role in educating others, why not publish? Believe it or not, it isn't difficult to publish field research without including locality specifics, and I'm sure that any editor who questioned that would understand if you explained that giving the specific locality details could be potentially detrimental to the population. Whatever data you have might be specific to the particular populations you work, but they may also help shed light on unexplained phenomena at other sites. Publishing reaches a broader audience and allows the paper to do some of the education work for you.

Also, I'd be surprised if your information had much impact on a government or large-scale conservation strategy if it weren't published and subjected to peer review. On the other hand, when you say this:
Challenging or questioning another’s findings is to be expected, but my methods are solid and anyway who the F are you to doubt that? In fact if anyone’s evading anything here it’s you, as you show no sign of being an actual scientist, nor ameuter fieldherper.
.... I'm not sure you'd be up to the challenge of peer review. The process of determining whether the conclusions one makes are supported by the available data is largely based on deciding whether the methods used are reasonable/effective. Unfortunately, because the methods of a study are usually difficult to change by the time you do publish, any issues a reviewer has with the methods are usually fatal to publication decisions. Issues with interpretation are far easier to deal with at that stage.

Van
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by incuhead2000 »

You do provide some valid points about snake behavior and you have managed to educate several of us, including myself, to use a more hands off approach. Last time I hit the field I kept my distance from the snakes and yes, it was a rewarding experience to leave without a rattle or even a noticeable tongue flicking so I hope others also adopt the hands off approach. When I'm in the field, just like a lot of other FHF users here are doing very similar stuff that you do, going out to gain personal knowledge. We may not all be researchers, keeping documents, pit tagging snakes, collecting snakes, collecting venom, I dunno you name it, I'll leave it to the "pros" but to be honest, this is research I've always been interested in long before joining this forum. I mean, a lot of us would love to get out in the field with researchers, heck, that's why I watch so much herp related programs on tv and why I joined this forum.

I remember the thread you speak of when it comes to helping herps, and recently I have been contributing some of my findings to MARA and did attend a meeting to meet some of the folks involved. If a door would open and an opportunity would present itself so I could move out of my current job into something reptile related, I would do so in a split second. I'm sure you understand that when it does come to trust issues and people not wanting to give away locations it can be difficult to get into this field of work. I'm sure someone studying any rare animal would be hesitant to take "intern A" into the field.

I share a lot of what I learn with my friends and family, and trust me, after logging many painful hours in the field scouting out herps I keep locations under lock and key just because I know what a lot of people still think of these animals. I feel that what I do know and have learned has some benefit, like educating people I know on animal behavior or while at work I hope to convince those few folks that say " I found this animal in the wild, how can I keep it as a pet" to release the animal where they found it and why they should set it free. Most folks that come into my work place also frequently ask "aren't you afraid of that snake" and my cheap, witty reply is, "No, the only animals I'm really scared of are people". I am not a spot stealer or a collector, but was lurking on the forum for a while trying to learn some snake finding tactics before I joined to share my findings so I understand the sensitivity of info because any average joe can look it up on the net.

I feel a lot of personal attacks when it comes to rattlers because I think every time I or kirbyl4 posts something, you feel the need to post something in return, like how rattlers can smell people, (I'm not doubting they can't, how else would they track down their prey after after envenomation) or how people should leave the rattlers alone and avoid dens or make some remark about my dad filming our herping adventures. When name calling starts it kills the credibility. I feel like you look down on a lot of us here, but if we are all hitting the field to gain personal knowledge then why talk down to others here? I know our first meeting was a horrible experince, maybe not for you, but I was embarrassed how my dad was trying to get a rise out of you.

I think the main point is that we all go out into the field to gain personal knowledge. I will be sticking around this forum and hope to learn more from my fellow herpers and maybe someday you'd be willing to share your findings with us, or even be willing to share what you've noticed in the area where we ran into one another because I'd be willing to share with you or with someone if I knew it would benefit the snakes.

-Mike
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

VanAR wrote: Believe it or not, it isn't difficult to publish field research without including locality specifics
I didn't know that-that was indeed my biggest reservation,not that I can be sure I wouldn't get shot down in short order anyway in the process of peer review.......If that's the case I wonder why so many don't omit that aspect of their study?

VanAR wrote:Also, I'd be surprised if your information had much impact on a government or large-scalconservation strategy if it weren't published and subjected to peer review.
I see your point and no question being published carries some additional clout behind one's name but it can and has been done.......
One example is that of a database which is set up by some states,which the state then uses for determining the need/extent of protective measures needed during development and other construction('destruction' more accuratley) projects.

And yes Van I don't know how well I'd take the process of peer review,which I admit to be fully unfamiliar with firsthand.I'm sure it could get very trying.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by justinm »

This was the most amazing Timber I've ever seen! Do you have more pics of this gem?

Image
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

incuhead2000 wrote:I remember the thread you speak of when it comes to helping herps, and recently I have been contributing some of my findings to MARA and did attend a meeting to meet some of the folks involved.
-Mike
Mike I definitely appreciate the candid remarks. No doubt you and yours have been getting around and seeing a lot this year, I'm envious. Yeah we did get off on a strange note.

I do not participate in MARA and I have plenty, specific reasons for that. Before doing anything else with the Md. DNR and their herp projects/workshops/groups/whatever, I'd implore you or anyone to p.m. me to get some background info.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by VanAR »

I didn't know that-that was indeed my biggest reservation,not that I can be sure I wouldn't get shot down in short order anyway in the process of peer review.......If that's the case I wonder why so many don't omit that aspect of their study?
I guess I should qualify that specificity may be in the eye of the beholder. I read a lot of papers these days that describe a study site as a given park, refuge, wilderness area, WMA, etc. Its not uncommon for mountain ranges to be mentioned, either. What I see less and less are gps coordinates, maps with recognizable features, etc. A good example would be Rulon Clark's 2008 paper, with Brown, Stechert, and Zamudio. This paper talks about timber landscape genetics and is highly geographical in nature, yet includes no specific location descriptions, and the only map is a broad-scale depiction of New York State, with a series of highly featureless images that only show (to scale) the relative distributions of timber densites that were sampled.

I'm not sure why more people don't omit locality info. I think a large part is simple naivete, either on the parts of the authors or by the editors/referees (which I think you could easily argue against).

I recently "found" a population of green salamanders simply by googling 'green salamander' and a nearby WMA where I suspected they existed. That led me straight to a website that had a grad student's defense powerpoint with maps so specific I was later able to identify the exact rocks she used in her study (didn't hurt that she'd left flags next to the crevices she was studying). I was so dumbfounded that I emailed the society who had the talk online, only to be told that it "wasn't a big deal".
And yes Van I don't know how well I'd take the process of peer review,which I admit to be fully unfamiliar with firsthand.I'm sure it could get very trying.
I've only published a few papers myself, but my average turnaround time (from first submission to publication) is about 9 months, and none have been accepted on the first try, most not even on the second. Its probably the most frustrating process known to man, but that's what maintains quality.

Van
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

justinm wrote:This was the most amazing Timber I've ever seen! Do you have more pics of this gem?
no other pics of either of those snakes....In the two visits since that pic was taken two years ago,I didn't happen across either snake.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by incuhead2000 »

I just realized the black one was two rattlers, nice shot! Any thoughts on why the rattles would vary in size so much? Could it be damage, genetics, or any other possible cause?
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by vincemartino »

Van, you might be right about naivete being a reason for inclusion of specific locale details. Another reason may just be non concern for the animals really. Many people out there doing field studies and publishing them have their own agenda. They may include specific details for no other reason than credibility and thoroughness with disregard to the well-being of the population being studied.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by vincemartino »

And Justin, I too have apprehensions about submitting records for some species that are of higher concern. One obvious reason is the map that they publish on the website filling in sections down to quads and blocks for snakes, turtles, lizards, frogs, and salamanders. Look at the map, find the block in the middle of whatever habitat and voila, you are all of a sudden at my site or someone elses.

Also can't help but be concerned about who is going to use the info. Are one of the many teachers involved in the program going to take students to a locale that I submitted? Is someone involved going to use one of my entries to begin their own study in my spot without my permission?
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by VanAR »

Another reason may just be non concern for the animals really. Many people out there doing field studies and publishing them have their own agenda. They may include specific details for no other reason than credibility and thoroughness with disregard to the well-being of the population being studied.
I doubt that. There are certainly exceptions, but most of the people I know doing this work got into it because they have a huge interest in the animals. I think its more likely that they are thorough not with disregard, but with ignorance.
Is someone involved going to use one of my entries to begin their own study in my spot without my permission?
Is it really your site? Do they really need your permission? What if they found the site on their own?

Van
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by vincemartino »

Well, I'm not so selfish to think that any area of public land is "mine." What I mean is that what if I provide information that leads to someone using the site for some research or activity that I don't really agree with? Then I feel like I shouldn't have provided that information. There is certainly a lot of discussion lately about sharing localities and the ethics of how we conduct ourselves at those places. I am only concerned that people will do something I perceive as unethical or are causing damage to the habitat or animals. I know I am contributing to a state run program, but there quite a few people involved and it is hard to know who is going to use your info and what for.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by vincemartino »

Oh, and I've seen a few papers that seem to be purely for the betterment of the person(s) career or agenda. Not that many when it comes to field studies on wild populations. But it still happens (especially those spondored by private companies with interest in lumber, coal, gas etc.)
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

vincemartino wrote:Oh, and I've seen a few papers that seem to be purely for the betterment of the person(s) career or agenda. Not that many when it comes to field studies on wild populations. But it still happens (especially those spondored by private companies with interest in lumber, coal, gas etc.)
I'd be curious to see a few of those papers. Other than boosting someone's academic career and CV, I can't think of a worse way to get ahead than to write papers "with an agenda". Even papers sponsored ( I think you mean funded here?) by private companies are subject to rigorous peer review and if they have an "agenda" they probably aren't going to make it through.

I'm not saying it never happens, it just seems like a very difficult endeavor. As Van mentioned above, getting a peer reviewed paper published is one of the most difficult, unpleasant processes imaginable. And to top it off most papers are only ever read by a handful of people! So even if you have an agenda, it not a very effective media to communicate it.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by heavenscloud »

Edit
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

vincemartino wrote:And Justin, I too have apprehensions about submitting records for some species that are of higher concern.
Also can't help but be concerned about who is going to use the info. Are one of the many teachers involved in the program going to take students to a locale that I submitted? Is someone involved going to use one of my entries to begin their own study in my spot without my permission?


KNOW what your hard earned data is going to be used for and to what extent, etc. before diligently offering it up to your local gov’t. agency personnel. If the state you live in doesn’t show a history of competent management of the native herps and/or their habitat, then why do it? If you don’t agree with their practices, you could be exposing yourself to a long and frustrating experience. As always, once you put the information out there, you have no control where and to whom it goes.
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

incuhead2000 wrote:I just realized the black one was two rattlers, nice shot! Any thoughts on why the rattles would vary in size so much? Could it be damage, genetics, or any other possible cause?

Mike,are you talking about the number of segments on each snakes' rattle?
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by heavenscloud »

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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by incuhead2000 »

ugh wrote:
incuhead2000 wrote:I just realized the black one was two rattlers, nice shot! Any thoughts on why the rattles would vary in size so much? Could it be damage, genetics, or any other possible cause?

Mike,are you talking about the number of segments on each snakes' rattle?

Yes, in your pic I see the one timber has what appears to be a nubbin of a rattle and the other looks like it is boasting a nice larger one. I know that rattle size is typically related to the growth after a shed, just curious if you had any input as to why this one was so small. Maybe the previous rattle got stuck in a bad shed and came off or a predator tried to mess with the rattlesnake and took off the rattle and now it has regrown a bit?
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

Mike it looks to me like the big male just has a broken rattle.Actually both snakes' rattles are broken,the male's is just shorter.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by heavenscloud »

ugh wrote:I do not participate in MARA and I have plenty, specific reasons for that. Before doing anything else with the Md. DNR and their herp projects/workshops/groups/whatever, I'd implore you or anyone to p.m. me to get some background info.
I intended to let this go, but it really needs to be addressed. Here's a link to the MARA site: http://www.marylandnature.org/mara/. We constantly complain about the widespread indifference regarding herps. Here's an opportunity to assist future conservation efforts at the state level. If you herp MD and find something "rare" at one of your sites, letting the state know could potentially lead to protection of that site in the future. Hopefully, that prospect is more important to you than exclusive knowledge of the site. If you have specific concerns that aren't addressed on the MARA site, why not contact MD DNR before you decide not to participate?


Brandon
ugh

Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

JAMAUGHN wrote:Would you all mind taking a second to indulge a newbie-ish question regarding all of this? What exactly constitutes a den?

JAMAUGHN When I use the term Den I'm refering to the actual/immediate area where the snakes overwinter.
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Re: Rattlers no.56

Post by JAMAUGHN »

Thank you!
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