Rattlers no.56

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ugh

Rattlers no.56

Post by ugh »

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Ok timeout a sec-talking big picture here,I understand showing off pics of gorgeous rattlers on the internet is extremely important for their overall well-being(at least the photographer's, if not the snakes')-but now to actual the purpose of my post.My observations will likely seem obvious and elementary to many but maybe not to some newer herpers so bear with me....

I've noticed an increase of posts here portraying rattlers over the past year or two in particular.This seems like a good time to throw out a general reminder that repeated visits to the same spots/snakes will often cause the snakes to respond by avoiding these spots in the future.I can say from personal experience that more often than not,after 'X' amount of repeated visits this does happen;sometimes, it appears not to-but if it occurs,when and why remains somewhat unclear.......

Even in cases where an individual snake doesn't abandon a spot altogether, they have to repeatedly expend precious energy fleeing the perceived danger of humans getting too close for the snakes' comfort even if it's just for seemingly harmless in-situ photo taking from mere feet away(see photo no. 1),which is of course the best-case scenario (vs. someone handling the snakes in some way or another to get the exact photo they want, or whatever other reasons). This energy would otherwise go towards digestion,gestation,completing a shed cycle,combatting another male,getting to that prime ambush site,successfully procurring a fat chipmink,recovering from birthing,etc. etc. etc.

Remember that no one typically ever has any real idea of how many times this seemingly minor disturbance of the snake ducking under from that imposing towering creature with the weird flashing device in his hands plays out over and over again over the course of the snakes' active season,i.e. how many other herpers(not to mention hikers/bikers/stoners,etc.) are paying visits to the VERY SAME SITES.Heck I know of some that get visits from at least 2 dozen people every year.Some of those visitors go once a year,others maybe 2 or 3 times a year,some unfortunately go even more than that.Certain times of year,it's not unheard of for a site to probably get 3 or 4 visitors a day.And I'm just talking about herpers here so it's not unrealistic to double that when other folks are thrown in to the mix.That equals a considerable amount of disturbance to the snakes' natural process of doing things other than fleeing humans.

Being one that both likes to err on the side of caution, and put the snakes' well-being ahead of even my interest in observing/photographing/studying/seeing them,I typically keep my visits to any one site under 3 visits per year maximum;most sites I know of,in fact,I don't even get to annually though I do prefer to get to most once per year to notice any trending patterns.

I didn't become a believer in this retraint of sorts,until I notced differences in the snakes' behavior in a place I visited regularly, that I soon found out was getting regular visits from several others as well.Most of the other visitors I knew were as hands-off as myself.Nonetheless,the snakes became harder to find and appeared to have altered their movements in response to overabundance of human visitation.Not the first time this phenomena was observed by a long shot,but the case that made a profound impression on me and how I approached observing/studying/interacting with the animals(or didn't) from then on.

Just something worth considering next time....
snakeguy101
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Re: Rattlers

Post by snakeguy101 »

I think the bigger threat to these snakes is from those that come at them with a car, shovel or machete instead of a camera. I feel like you are over reacting a bit. Snakes deal with disturbances all the time (not all are from humans) and i have never found a snake that has been "properly handled to death". Take a look at captive snakes as well, some are handled daily and are fine.
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Jason B
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Jason B »

That in situ ambush shot is sweet.
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azatrox
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Re: Rattlers

Post by azatrox »

There’s an underlying assumption here that interaction is the cause of the change in behavior. The point is, there’s no way to measure all the other issues or variables that might cause the snake to alter its behavior or not visit certain sites throughout a year…We’re assuming that the cause is “x” when in reality it could by “y” or “z”. For example, here in Arizona there is a lot of ranch land and many cows on that ranch land….There’s even many cows on Coronado National Forest land as well. How do we know that the snakes aren’t altering their behaviors as a result of repeated interaction with said bovines? Can we even count the number of interactions in a given year? Doubtful….Yet, we come to the conclusion that because x number of people visit this site every year, that HAS TO have a negative influence on behavior patterns. I’ll wager that the “average snake” runs into many more cows than people throughout its lifetime (at least here in Az).

This is the issue with using the precautionary principle when justifying a certain decision or course of action…It’s not based on any verifiable scientific evidence…It’s simply what we think and our response to what we observe…Observations are great, but in the end they aren’t proof of anything. There are a multitude of factors that may be influencing the prevalence of a certain species in a certain area, even from year to year…Yet we assume that we must be causing a decline.

This is not to say that non invasive herping is bad….I do it whenever I can and handle animals as little as possible whenever I find them…If it’s possible to observe/photo an animal without direct interaction, I’ll do that every day and twice on Sundays…but to assume that photographing an animal (without contact) will cause that animal to alter its behavior is to ignore some other pretty big variables that may indeed have a much larger impact upon animal behavior.

These animals have been dealing with interactions/disturbances of one sort or another since long before humans came on the scene….yet they’ve managed to evolve and in some cases flourish despite that…That doesn’t mean that we as humans do what we want despite that but it means that perhaps these animals are a bit more resilient and tolerant than some give them credit for.
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Correcamino
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Correcamino »

aagh..the usual knee jerk reactions, lol...

I have to agree whole heartedly with ugh, I have seen it time and again. And its not a sudden realization, it has taken years to come to the same conclusion. I used to catch and pose, then realized what was happening, then went to th e idea that as long as the snakes were not handled it was OK. Years ago I started erring on the side of caution with some of my dens allowing no more than one visit a year, and skipping years also, even though some of my herping partners did not like this idea in the least. But this phenom is becoming more noticable now as more people are taking insitu photos and not disturbing, yet, areas with repeated visits / no-handling still follow the same pattern, first you see earlier dispersal, then the big males are no longer to be seen basking as they get the heack out of Dodge, gradually the females and young change their ways and places.

Yeah, as some here have stated, the snaks survive (I certainly would not go so far as to say FLOURISH), but human interference is not the same as other large animals. Most animals are very aware of the snakes presence through keen senses and circumvent the snake well enough, at the least, most show no interest as they pass by, and the snake knows this. Then comes the herper. Sure, he doesn't touch he snake, but he comes close, makes strange flashes, circles all around for beter angles etc. The snake KNOWS he has been seen. I have watched this over the years and I would say 50% of the time or more, that when this activity occurs , although the snake shows no sign of caring while you are there, it is gone when you return.

We now take great pains to find unobtrusive vantage points to take photos when possible, Use long lenses and limit flash , I have watched rattlers flinch time and again when Brendan uses his external flash even though it doesn't show in his pics, I now make every effort to not use flash when possible, and we now limit our den visits for the most part to once a year. Theres a couple dens that have been well disturbed for many years and what remains just doesn't care, so we may visit these two or three times a year at most.

Nowdays, I tell everybody "if you find a den, keep it to yourself. Don't show me, don't show Brendan. Every visitor, even if they don't physically disturb the snakes, is still a disturbance and has an impact on your future possibilities of observation and photos"

And this doesn't only pertain to densites, if a rattlesnake is coiled and not on the move, be it a basking,digesting or gestating posture, then it is a site that will be used again in teh future by it and others as well. To disturb snakes in ambush postures is like taking away your local grocery store, you have to go a couple more miles down the road to another store. You spend more gas money, maybe they have higher prices, maybe its in "the Hood" and you get mugged two out of three visits. Or Killed. Don't worry, we humans have been surviving just fine, the loss of you or your family doesn't matter. A bit exagerrated perhaps (perhaps not in some situations) , but you get the idea.

A challenge to the naysayers. Over the years I have noticed that those with the same kinda philosophy as ugh, myself, Brendan, Diamondback Dave, Dave Prada etc., have been able tp post photos of not only groups of snakes in social situations, but also the smae snakes at the same spots over and over, year after year. I never see this from teh naysayers. Lets see 'em! :P
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mikemike
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Re: Rattlers

Post by mikemike »

I'm not exactly sure how you can even notice any "trending patterns" by visiting somewhere only once per year...

If you herp a spot once, don't see anything, then go once more the next year, and don't see anything, do you just assume that the population at that spot has been completely impacted by herpers and there just aren't snakes there anymore?

In my personal opinion, I think it's impossible to establish any sort of trends on whether the animals' well beings are actually being affecting in any way whatsoever based on just a couple of visits a year.
chad ks
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Re: Rattlers

Post by chad ks »

Right on. I think this is an important message to send out to the youngsters and those who are just starting out as Crotalus followers. I've flipped rocks for years here in Kansas and for the most part I've seen the same animals over and over. Our timbers seem to take advantage of disturbed habitat and from my experience have not tended away from the dens where we've flipped.

However, I've come to realize exactly what is meant by "long term disturbance". Over about a ten year period I witnessed many timbers at sites that I would frequently visit, but as mentioned above, the numbers have indeed slowly tapered off. Years ago Dave Prada scolded some friends and I for flipping timbers and we argued per our experience that the snakes would remain. They have remained, but they have certainly moved from the sites where we flipped them too much. There's no doubt about it, and I appreciate forum users taking the time to share wisdom that they've accumulated. I'm happy to do the same.
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azatrox
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Re: Rattlers

Post by azatrox »

So how are we determining that the relaitive density at a certain site (be it a den, rookery, whatever) is being influenced more by human interaction than any other factor? My point is not that human interaction doesn't have an effect....Rather, my point is that to assume that human interaction is the driver behind whether a snake decides to pick up stakes and move on from a locale or not is erroneous because one is relying on (at best) a tiny picture of the animal's life...

There are a multitude of factors that can influence an animal's behavior...Some snakes will stick around and can be observed for years even after relatively heavy human interaction...others won't be seen again for years at a specific locale...What causes this? Is it human interaction? Some other factor? Perhaps a combination of factors? I suspect the variables are different in each circumstance, so there really is no "one size fits all" answer...Snakes are individuals....some have a higher tolerance for disrupting variables than others.

-Kris
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Correcamino
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Correcamino »

With all due respect, I think you are still just whitewashing this Kris. True, there can be many factors, but yet those who are speaking up on this are basing this on many years of observation, some well over twenty years at same sites, and watching what happens after they have interacted with the snakes, or when new people come to a site that has been unchanges for many years previous. Even without a formal study, much of this is pretty no-brainer. Those who have had the priviledge of seeing ten or more snakes in a happy basking pile, or groups of females with piles of babies know where we are coming from. Those who have seen thos piles go away never to be seen again understand even better.

Rich
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Crotalus »

I pose/photo virtually every rattlesnake I find. That said, if I gave a sh*t about seeing them at that same location, I wouldn't.

Pretty sure there was a paper on this from somewhere in AZ, I'll see if I can find it.

-JJ
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azatrox
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Re: Rattlers

Post by azatrox »

My intent isn’t to “whitewash” anything…Simply to say that there are likely other factors at play than how many times an animal is observed and/or photographed…For example, I’m sure you’ve had instances where you’ve gone to a locale not well known by others, seen a snake once and failed to see it again on repeat visits…Likewise, I’m sure at some well known locales you can observe the same animals time and again and these animal appear to be largely unaffected by indirect human presence.

Let me be clear…I’m NOT saying that human interaction does not have an effect…What I’m saying is that it is completely possible that other factors are at play here, and perhaps some of those factors are an even larger determinant than said human interaction….No, I’m not encouraging everyone to go out and play with rattlesnakes…Most “normal” people would find such an idea ludicrous anyway.

If we really want to find the reasons behind the decreased observations at certain locales, we have to be open to the possibility that perhaps there are other things that warrant consideration as well.

-Kris
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Rattlers

Post by muskiemagnet »

i'm glad i caught this one before it blows up into a bunch of pages. much easier to follow along.

i agree with both sides. there is nothing to prove that humans/herpers are forcing the snakes to change habits/locations, but, what if we are? even if we do not have proof, the possibility exists. are you willing to adopt a "no handle" approach? this is how i do rattlesnakes. even if the possibility of "us" having a negative impact exists, we should be very open minded regarding the situation. we all love herps. we should do everything in our power to tread lightly. in my opinion, this includes no touch, no flash, and BRIEF photo sessions. if you really want the perfect picture, go to a zoo, or find someone with a captive animal.

when i read this, i immediately thought of den sites. keep in mind, these are not the hearty, well-fed individuals you will find dispersed in the summer. they are hungry, their bodies are most likely preparing for shed, they spend their time seeking out warmth to get their bodies going after a long winter, they breed, they fight(males), and they disperse. this takes energy, and occurs over a relatively short period of time. this is a lot for them to handle. go look. that's cool, but be respectful to the snakes situation.


-BEN
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Norman D
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Norman D »

I am a newbie crotalus junkie and got hooked last year.

In my brief experience, I agree that foot traffic can affect most populations. There are some areas that I used to go to that I would see 2-4 tiger rattlesnakes consistently. Now, I have yet to see one in that area. I have noticed a lot more trash and foot traffic in this area.

But also, I have noticed that some populations aren't affected by heavy foot traffic maybe because they take refuge in certain man-made places. The animals that tend to live near popular hiking trails seem to be more calm and most rarely rattle - but you don't seem to find high densities of animals.

Learning is part of this great experience. I saw one tiger rattlesnake nearly a dozen times this year, and a few others several times. If I hooked them or spooked them too much, I am sure I wouldn't see them that much. I do take photos to help document, but now I am learning to only take a few instead of a dozen or two dozen photos (part of that is learning this new camera).

I have learned that hands-off is very important. Also, I agree that visiting areas too frequently seems to play a big factor as well. Though, I have posed some rattlesnakes - usually animals off the road or on the crawl. When I see animals in ambush or hiding in a crevice or hole - I think it is an important observation because you see where an animal feels secure or where it feeds. Bother them too much or make too much commotion, and they don't seem as secure.

I still need to add den photos and piles of babies to my photo resume', but I think I am starting to get an idea. It sure is fun but I don't want to intrude too much on the animals. What do I know - I'm a rookie.

This pic used to be my hot-spot, but it seems like someone either collected the animals or messed with them. I have only found one visitor here since last year.
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The next few photos are from a heavily visited area... animals still visit, but most don't stick around very long.
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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

Great in-situ photos ugh. That last one is awesome.

It's refreshing to hear that so many herpers are starting to catch on to the same idea that "less is more". The less you interfere with a snake the more info you gain long term not only from a photography standpoint but from a basic behavioral understanding. For some guys like the MX crew they don't have the leisure to go back and visit most snakes they find on a repeat basis. They are more concerned with getting basic data on what lives where to fill in gaps in range maps and to document new animals not previously known. In this case I think there is a need which supersedes the basic needs of the snake at that time. Very few guys are doing this though and for those of us herping in the US we can't use that to justify molesting every snake we find.

Arizona is probably the most herped state of the 50 and most of the ranges are well sampled but yet people still go to the same spots year after year and still flip the same rocks and peek in the same holes. The only reason I can see for doing this is to document behavior. In this case there is almost no reason to ever mess with the snakes but yet people still do it. I attribute it to either being a herp newbie (some people with a decade or more in the field can still be noobs in my book) or they just plain suck at finding snakes and so everything they find is a gold nugget. It amazes me how clueless some herpers are even with thousands of field hours under the belt. I guess the other option is that some people just don't give a rats a$$ about the snakes and need to fulfill some kind of quota to feel cool in the eyes of peers. In the end it's a waste of time trying to change the opinions of that small sector of the hobby. I think posts like this however, will help to educate those who are new to the hobby see the value in what many guys are trying to convey. Most of it comes with decades of field observation to back it up.

As a whole I am really encouraged by the fact that many "young" herpers (not chronologically) are getting this stuff right out of the gate and are making observations that guys who have herped 20 years have still never seen. Thanks for the post ugh. Norm your one of the guys I am talking about, good job man. Do yourself a favor and never show others your spots or you'll never make those same observations!!! I've learned this the hard way as have many others!!

B
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

There are several cases in the literature documenting that humans observation can affect behavior and growth rates of rattlesnakes. There is nothing in the literature to support population level effects (ie decreased survival, birth rates ect). What I find frustrating are cases where someone visits a site once or twice a year then claims that the snakes have abandoned the site. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I think sometimes we overestimate rattlesnake detectibility.

I agree with Brendon that it is refreshing to see more people take a hands off approach.
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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

Bryan Hamilton wrote:There are several cases in the literature documenting that humans observation can affect behavior and growth rates of rattlesnakes. There is nothing in the literature to support population level effects (ie decreased survival, birth rates ect). What I find frustrating are cases where someone visits a site once or twice a year then claims that the snakes have abandoned the site. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I think sometimes we overestimate rattlesnake detectibility.

I agree with Brendon that it is refreshing to see more people take a hands off approach.
I totally agree Bryan. Some years denning snakes do crazy things and lack of detectability can often be mistaken for abandonment. Lots of factors play a role in snakes being surface active and detectable. I try to never make assumptions in that area.

Sorry I missed you at BOR.
RobertH
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Re: Rattlers

Post by RobertH »

I am glad I ran across this thread and will take to heart what ugh, Rich and Brendan have said on this topic. Over the course of this year, I have found three separate helleri dens with at least four different snakes up the hill just 15 minutes from my house and it is very tempting to go up there and visit "my rattlers" every couple of weeks or so. The locations are very difficult to get to and I am positive I am the only human being they ever see.

But now, I know better and won't disturb them that often anymore. I would kick myself if they left the dens on my account. Even though I have never handled any of them, I know I have disturbed them in the past because they rattled and/or withdrew, especially one big male. Here are some pics:

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Thanks for the advice!

Robert
ugh

Re: Rattlers

Post by ugh »

I should have probably emphasized witnessing ‘changes in movements & behavior’ as much if not moreso than seeing actual abandonment of a site.

Thing is I’ve seen the latter as well, depending on what the site is being used for by the snakes. Other stuff worth mentioning here too: Things like the comfort zone of the snakes in question being no less than 6 feet (in my experience). Hence my switching to long lenses and shunning the macro shots, as Rich mentioned also I believe; these snakes’ eyesight being very keen/specific to sensing motion; the importance of moving very very very slowly and steadily when in their proximity(this one requires constant reminders from one’s self) so as not to illicit undue amounts of stress and the accompanying undesirable repsonses (rattling, flight, etc.).

This post has gotten some great feedback from all sides, better than I had hoped for. Most importantly I like that it didn’t spin out of control with people’s fired up emotions fogging out their ability to absorb of other pints of view, not yet at least, lol……I was actually half-expecting it to get ugly considering the amount of passion we have for herps. Nonetheless I wanted to put this on the table, as even it one or two folks could learn something here it would be worth it, the ultimate beneficiares being the snakes.

Some of the most knowledgable and experienced guys on this forum have weighed in and I really appreciate them doing so. One of the most frustrating things I come across-on this forum, and on real time-is folks being too close-minded to learn what others can teach, and ‘unlearn’ misinformation…...

Also the discussion of information-sensitive/specific information that is,e.g. 'where',etc...Once that information is shared,one of course has zero control what happens to that info;where it goes,what's done with it.I've found for continued learning & optimum results I visit these snakes alone probably 95% of the time,otherwise in extremely select company-people who I know care for the snakes as much as I- and pretty much never in groups of more than 2 or 3 max. Visiting them on their longtime home turf esp. a den,is just not necessary to teach others about them because anyone with even a slightly lesser appreciation(=99.9% of the world) will not treat the sensitive info such as location with as much care as I would want or expect so I just don't create that situation.

Justin Collins
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Peter84Jenkins
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Peter84Jenkins »

I am not condoning handling every snake one finds, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with ugh or anybody else, I just wanted to offer another point of view from personal experience. I think anyone who visits the dwindling wild places of this planet should tread lightly and respectfully.

The current agreed upon hypothesis on the origin of the rattle, is the evolution of the rattlesnake in parallel to the large mammals of the Pleistocene epoch, as a warning system against being trampled. With that said, it seems to me, that rattlesnakes are evolved to deal with the presence of big animals. And with that said, if you take away the human presence on a rattlesnake den (I will be speaking of timbers since that is what I am familiar with) the den is a more active, wild and bustling place without us there anyway. All manner of animals visit dens for various reasons, and a human or two or three, in most cases is not the worst to set foot or feet on a den. Bears will flip rocks for morsels and rummage in the bushes for berries and such, and when a bear finds a place to feed regularly he will return time and time again. Bobcats will visit dens for much the same reasons, to eat lizards, mice, bats which hide under stones, and ground nesting birds. Raccoon, oh, and turkey too. Even worse than all of the aforementioned wildlife and humans combined is the feral hog! I have, no, I am currently dealing with an outbreak of these bastards. With as much physical damage as herds of hogs cause to the landscape and the actual structure of the den, I still see timber rattlesnakes behaving like timber rattlesnakes. The only difference is they are much more alert, they hide deeper, and the shelter stones they pick to hide under are the largest and most immovable ones, but they have not abandoned these sites. Habits change for survival. Hogs, just like bears, will return time and time and time again as long as they can fill their bellies. I have trail cams set up on sites and some have picked up no less than 5 visits in one day by the pig. This is getting a bit long.

Bottom line is, we are just another animal visitor in the eyes of the rattlesnake, the main difference is herpers will (hopefully) replace rocks flipped, hunting pigs and bears will not. They see us as no different than a bear or hog. My humble opinion is that we should strive NOT to add to the pandemonium that already exists in these habitats.
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Ridge Walker
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Ridge Walker »

Good discussion. I'm fairly familiar with Timbers, so I'll comment on that particular species. I'm not convinced that in situ photography really has much, if any, impact on them. I can think of a number of situations where the snakes are in frequent close contact with unobtrusive humans, and they still remain, doing their thing.
People messing with them is a problem. If you want to guarantee that you will only see glimpses of rattlers diving under rocks, or maybe none at all, start hooking snakes and flipping rocks in rookery areas. Also, be sure to tell all your herping buddies where to go, or trade localities with them so that they get a chance to hook and pose them too.
In addition, as stated in the above posts, there are a number of other variables as to why you may see varying numbers of snakes from year, that may have nothing at all to do with humans. It's pretty complicated.
Maybe the best thing we can do to not impact the snake's behavior at all is stay at home and watch TV.

RW
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azatrox
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Re: Rattlers

Post by azatrox »

I too would like to thank everyone that has participated in a civil and respectful manner. Anytime you get a bunch of herpers together with differing viewpoints on subjects, things are bound to get “interesting”… For the record, I think it’s important to have as little impact on the environment and animals as possible. I’d like to think we all have that mindset, but opinions being like certain holes of the anatomy, everyone’s got theirs.

Be that as it may, I’m glad we’re all conscious of the effect we have on the environment when herping. We may disagree on some of the finer points, and intelligent debate regarding such is a good thing, but the overall idea seems to be pretty consistent. I also think it’s important to keep an open mind when considering possible causes to changes in animal behavior because for as much as we think we know, we really don’t know a whole lot when it comes to why these animals do what they do.

Thanks for the interesting thread and the obvious lack of “herper ego pissing contests” within it (at least thus far) LOL. :)

-Kris
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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

Nice series on the sopacs Robert. I think your approach is working just fine for both you and the snakes. As others have stated rattlesnakes are somewhat accustomed to approach by large mammals of all kinds. They don't really get thrown off course very often till they start getting yanked out for photos, blood samples or whatever else we justify doing to them. In some cases I think it can be of benefit to science as long as it's done away from prime sites like dens and rookeries. I think they key for you is to continue to be the only one who visits the snakes in metered amounts.

Another great point which was brought up is the trading of info. I see this all the time here in AZ and it leads to nothing but added long term pressure to local populations. It's one thing when one or two guys/gals visit a site and observe and photo snakes on a semi regular basis and a completely different when those site a subject of large groups of guys who bring new guys each week. Eventually the traffic in an area gets to be so overwhelming that snakes just move on to new areas. I'm not even talking about the sensitive site like rookeries but simple sites like summer foraging grounds. As we all know rattlesnakes are ambush predators and will sit for hours and even days in one spot waiting to food to come by. If we hit the same spots over and over again during prime hunting times (cooler evening hours in the summer) then we also run the risk of chasing away potential food items like rodents who are far more aware of human presence.

In the end it would be nice if people actually reflected on some of these simple points before they bring car loads of people out to a spot and hook out every snake they see sitting in a bush or hiding in a small hole along a wash. Sure it's easy to sit back and say it's no big deal and the snakes will be fine but don't claim to care about anything more than our own selfish needs.

To those who visit dens of any species and have done so for many years I think you have a far better understanding of all the good points people have shared here. I don't think I really had a good understanding of any of this stuff until I started observing dens of several different species of rattlesnake. Even in the very beginning I didn't give much thought to how my actions would impact the sites long term. Fortunately I always had a little birdie on my shoulder ( actually a roadrunner) who shared some insight that slowly sunk in and made complete sense. Dens are something that only a small group of people are fortunate enough to ever find or even observe. Thank God for that! We should all continue to put good information out here so that when some of the herper masses do stumble upon a den they are able to step back and make good decisions on how to proceed from there.
To those that already know of dens do everyone a favor and always keep them to yourself or your most trusted of field companions. Justin made this point already but I'd like to echo that sentiment!
It would be nice to see more photos like a few have already posted of the stuff that can be seen and photographed when your leaving your hooks and bags at home.
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Rattlers

Post by muskiemagnet »

i have to go to work soon, and i didn't get a chance to read it all. i did notice a theme regarding den abandonment.

they are there for a good reason, and i believe that it would take something major to force them to move on.

i stumbled across an active timber den this spring. i was there three times. the first time was early spring. ground temps were still very cold. the all snakes were out coiled in the sun. the second time was two weeks later. ground temps were warming up considerably, and the snakes seemed to spend their time closer to their hole/crevice. some were only visible inside the rocks. two weeks later, we found two at the same rock. i believe that the snakes had dispersed and those two were gravid females that were intending to stay. that rock was situated in a way to protect from the direct sun and such. perfect place to stay for the summer if you ask me. long story short. i feel that ground temps play an important role in springtime activity. the snakes may very well still be there. on days when you don't see any/many, ask yourself if the ground has had a chance to warm up. if it has, the snakes would much rather stay "inside" for protection. as long as they can get the warmth they are looking for, i think they will stay hidden underground. that may be why it seems they have disappeared. keep in mind, this is just speculation at this point. i've only observed for one emergence only. it does make sense though.

-ben
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kyle loucks
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Re: Rattlers

Post by kyle loucks »

No touch = :thumb:


This is one of the timbers I have been fortunate to observe for the last three years... there are others but this one is distinctive.

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2010

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2011

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My objective when observing is no rattling... Rattling = stress and if I can get my shot and get out without undue stress, then I
am satisfied. But I also think the observation data is important, so I visit twice per year.
Casual observations must be less stressful than flipping. I have seen flipping spots become sterile as the animals no longer recognize
their favorite board as a safe haven.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

As a rock climber, I see rattlesnakes all the time in highly disturbed, heavy daily use areas by climbers (dozens of people daily.) Seems rattlesnakes and rock climbers have a similar preference of habitat. Many rock climbing areas are named rattlesnake wall, rattlesnake rock, rattlesnake point, rattlesnake butte and so forth for excellent reason. I have noticed no such trend of rattlesnakes getting disturbed moving on from prime frequented areas...however, climbers usually don't pester the snakes opting for a "leave me alone and I hope the feeling is mutual" attitude unlike your average hiker, jogger or arrogant dog walker who usually fusses with the snake. Perhaps montane snakes or desert crag snakes act different than flat desert or woodland snakes that might not have another suitable locale for many miles.
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photo credit unknown, internet photo in circulation

I visit some hibernacula I am aware of on an infrequent basis and I often find the exact same snakes on the exact same rocks. seems preference for strong denning sights outweighs all other considerations including occasional human disturbance. As far as ambush locations or dispersal corridors, aren't these snakes on the move anyways? If the spot is hot for munchies they will stay for weeks if the local rodents are scarce away they go again looking for better places to hunt...
Brendan wrote: I'm not even talking about the sensitive site like rookeries but simple sites like summer foraging grounds. As we all know rattlesnakes are ambush predators and will sit for hours and even days in one spot waiting to food to come by. If we hit the same spots over and over again during prime hunting times (cooler evening hours in the summer) then we also run the risk of chasing away potential food items like rodents who are far more aware of human presence.
I think scaring away the prey is a more likely hypothesis Brendan as far as ambush sites go, but a mammal isn't going to give up a hard dug burrow every time it gets spooked by a potential predator either...


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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

Jeremy I think we both agreed that you are certainly entitled to do as you please with the snakes you encounter. What myself and others are trying to do is set a better example for the new herpers to follow. I've done the stuff I see you doing in photos (ie. handling gravid females for the sake of a photo) but I've come to understand a lot more about the animals needs and I place that before my sense of entitlement.

I don't disagree that snakes are very tolerant of a lot of things but it seems your basing your opinion on observations of only a limited number of rattlesnake species. Lutosus are well known for large aggregations and strong site fidelity. Not all rattlesnake behave like that. The last photo you posted would have been awesome if the snakes were actually relaxed and undisturbed. Under those circumstances you might have been lucky to witness courtship, combat and or many other cool things.

One day I hope your opinion changes and in the mean time I hope the snakes you do find are tolerant.
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Bobbleton »

Brendan wrote:What myself and others are trying to do is set a better example for the new herpers to follow. I've done the stuff I see you doing in photos (ie. handling gravid females for the sake of a photo) but I've come to understand a lot more about the animals needs and I place that before my sense of entitlement.
Excellent excellent statement. The needs of the animals should ALWAYS come before a herper's sense of entitlement. However there are very many whose "entitlement" trumps all else.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Brendan wrote:Jeremy I think we both agreed that you are certainly entitled to do as you please with the snakes you encounter. What myself and others are trying to do is set a better example for the new herpers to follow. I've done the stuff I see you doing in photos (ie. handling gravid females for the sake of a photo) but I've come to understand a lot more about the animals needs and I place that before my sense of entitlement.
I don't disagree that snakes are very tolerant of a lot of things but it seems your basing your opinion on observations of only a limited number of rattlesnake species. Lutosus are well known for large aggregations and strong site fidelity. Not all rattlesnake behave like that. The last photo you posted would have been awesome if the snakes were actually relaxed and undisturbed. Under those circumstances you might have been lucky to witness courtship, combat and or many other cool things.
One day I hope your opinion changes and in the mean time I hope the snakes you do find are tolerant.
That could very well be, as I live in Northern Utah and most of the snakes I see on any regular basis are very tolerant lutosus. The only individual specimens I have encountered multiple times are lutosus. I am simply saying that I haven't observed any snakes moving out of good locations from disturbance by people, as is postulated in many blanket statements in this thread. like I said I could give you 5 locations easy where you are sure to find rattlesnakes and rock climbers on any day of the summer. I even know of of a hibernaculum that is on a popular climbing crag.

I am not manhandling every snake I see or whatever it is you think I am doing. I don't appreciate you demonizing me as an example of what not to do based on one photo which depicted field handling which you yourself admittedly have done...statements like "better example for the new herpers to follow" seem to belittle me for no reason based on scant evidence and prove yourself a hypocrite if you yourself have done anything like that. Granted you have many more hours field experience than I have, especially observing crotes, as someone else in this thread pointed out observation is not empirical scientific data merely an observation that may or may not support any data. However, as we have never met and we have know idea of how the other one herps, I will reserve any snap judgment based on scant evidence as to whether your field techniques are vastly superior to mine in ethics or any other factor. I have no hard feelings towards you, rather I enjoyed your book and photos, and posts and like to discuss our favorite crotes here on the forum with you. Hoping to smooth your (perceived) ruffled feathers and get back to good discussion, even if it is from a differing view point.
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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

This is what I mean by relaxed snakes. Although the big male on top is very aware of my presence he never felt the need to retreat into the den. The other 7-8 snakes within a foot or two are also sound asleep and not at all bothered.

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And sometimes when you just sit back and watch from a distance they do really cool stuff that you would never get to see otherwise.......
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Jeremy I am not trying to demonize you at all. What I am trying to do is make you understand that if you are blessed to have good sites which are relatively undisturbed and have good populations of snakes, then why not do your best to keep it that way? I only made the point that handling some snakes (ie. gravid females) is best avoided if at all possible. In one sense I got the feeling that you didn't even know the snake was a female, much less gravid as you stated that visually sexing a snake is not accurate. I begged to differ.
I don't think your a bad guy and I'm sorry if my posts seem directed at you because they are not. It just so happens that you are trying to defend a point which I am arguing against. In fact I have more issues with others not mentioned in this thread over the way they seem to think that nothing they do or no one they show stuff to will have any impact.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Great shots Brendan.
As Azatrox, mikemike and Peter84Jenkins seem to be saying is we all obviously have some respect for the animals and their habitat but differ in opinion on what may or may not be an unacceptable disturbance I.E. ethological change caused by human factors. The jury is out on what causation effect on behavior any human disturbance that doesn't involve direct contact with the snake or habitat disruption might be until accurate studies can be done (by disturbing the snakes of course :D )
Brian Hamilton mentioned some scientific literary references on possible adverse affects, I would like to see those if you have a minute to post the references Brian.
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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

I guess a post or two went mia. Thought I saw a reply from pj at the end but I guess he yanked it.

Anyway I am still waiting for the guys who don't feel that disturbing the snakes has much impact to post some shots of the same animals from multiple years in the same spots. Or just some behavioral shots of feeding, combat or breeding. It seems that the guys who agree with our point of view are the ones who are getting these type of observations and the ones who don't never see the same snakes twice. Coincidence?
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

Brendan wrote:Anyway I am still waiting for the guys who don't feel that disturbing the snakes has much impact to post some shots of the same animals from multiple years in the same spots.
I personally capture the same individuals (Crotalus lutosus) year after year from the same communal sites. I capture them take them back to the lab for processing then release them at their exact capture sites. This is for a long term mark recapture study. I do think the animals are more wary and quicker to retreat than animals that have been disturbed.

I also have 12 animals with radio transmitters that I routinely capture to weigh and collect blood. I've observed these animals breeding, fighting, ect.

I'm not arguing against a hands off policy, in fact I encourage it. I just think that sometimes the impacts of handling are overstated and I suspect in many cases (particularly abandonment) that detectiblity is the issue.

Nevertheless why handle the snakes just to handle them? I have come around to the idea that there is a lot more to learn by watching than by grabbing.
Jeremy Westerman wrote:Brian Hamilton mentioned some scientific literary references on possible adverse affects, I would like to see those if you have a minute to post the references Brian.
Here are the three I can come up with off the top of my head:

BROWN, W. S. 1993. Biology, status, and management of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus): A guide for conservation. SSAR Herpetological Circular 22:1-78.
BROWN, W. S., M. KERY, and J. E. HINES. 2007. Survival of timber rattlesnakes (Crotalus horridus) estimated by capture-recapture models in relation to age, sex, color morph, time, and birthplace. Copeia. 2007:656-671.
DILLER, L. V., and R. L. WALLACE. 2002. Growth, reproduction, and survival in a population of Crotalus viridis oreganus in north central Idaho. Herpetological Monographs:26-45.

PM me if you want pdfs.
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Dan Krull
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Dan Krull »

I know of similar studies with similar results to the above.

I think people should refrain from harassing animals for sure, but I don't think we should eviscerate someone for posing a rattler.


Dan
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VanAR
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Re: Rattlers

Post by VanAR »

I'm usually one of the more vocal "it doesn't make a large difference" proponents, but I agree with the idea that less handling is better- if for no other reason than the safety of the handler.

From a biological standpoint, I echo much of what Bryan has put up- especially that detectability is the primary difference rather than abandonment.

Importantly, the three studies he references are all mark-recapture or observational studies that are not capable of tracking the snakes on a day-to-day basis. My experience with telemetry on timbers (and ratsnakes) mirrors Bryan's- the ones I worked with still went to the same sites year after year, but shifted their cryptic behavior so that they were *usually* less obviously seen. However, they were still often completely in the open, both at dens and out on their foraging/reproductive circuits. Telemetry studies by and large have shown the same thing in just about every species examined thus far- you can see this at JMIH and other professional meetings where this work is presented. Unfortunately, little of the work gets published since home range and habitat use stuff is usually secondary to the primary project and isn't "sexy".

I think the hands-off approach is admirable, and I think the experience of observing some of the normal behaviors of the snakes is great, but I don't think that closer observations (or even handling) significantly affects the snakes, besides altering their behavior. I think the greater impact is that when the snakes become more cryptic, they aren't as easy to observe, so not as people see them, and there *might* be a little more habitat disturbance/destruction in efforts to find them- that last is purely speculative and would seem to be dependent on the number of people going to sites. As such, I definitely agree that one should keep their sites as secret as possible.

On the other hand, I also think that there is a significant portion of the herper population that leans more towards haptic perception than visual. Many herpers I know need to have tactile interaction with their environment (even aside from herps) to gain personal satisfaction from the experience. I think people who lean more towards visual perception, if nature-oriented, tend more towards being birders than herpers. This is the old squeezer vs. counter debate common to discussions of ornithologists/wildlife biologists and herpetologists/ichthyologists.

I'm fine with there being a debate as to whether the value of a person's interaction with a herp is more important than the perceived effects on the herp (particularly in light of sometimes ambiguous evidence for significant impact), but I think that sometimes the argument gets out of hand.

Van
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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

It's about time we heard from you Van. I was wondering how much badgering it was going to take to get you to chime in. LOL

Dan no one is chastising anyone for posing a snake. All of us do it and I don't have any issue with it at all. The exception to that is when people pull a gravid willardi, tiger, speck or anyone other gestating crote out of a rookery site for the sake of a photo. It happens here in AZ all the time. In fact several great willardi rookeries in southern AZ have been ruined by overzealous herpers who see a snake sitting under the edge of a rock and can't resist turning that rock over to get to the snake. Of course they put the rock right back in place (sometimes) but it's never the same. The snakes don't come back.

I hear what Bryan and Van are saying but you guys are both talking about only two specific snakes. Timbers and Lutosus don't act the same as willardi, pricei tigris or any number of other western snakes so the same principles don't necessarily apply. I could see lutosus being marked, bled, and all other stuff scientific and then returning to normal routines.

My message is just in general if you don't have a research project going with specific intent to study a certain snake then why take the chance of ruining the opportunity for long term observations?
ugh

Re: Rattlers

Post by ugh »

I don't typically post my pics anymore but to be fair I should step up up to the plate per Brendan’s suggestion, seeing as how I started this whole thing.The AZ guys' pics and words hit the nail on the head already-and I definitely have nothing on par with the amazing stuff those guys shared here as I've yet to have the fortune of seing many aspects of the natural life cycle(e.g. combatting,feeding,etc)firsthand but here's a handful I feel demonstrated the shots I’m more happy with by shunning the macro shot/using a longer lens and as uninvasive approach as I can.This of course is a work in progess,a learning curve for me.


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Re: Rattlers

Post by kyle loucks »

Nice Justin.
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VanAR
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Re: Rattlers

Post by VanAR »

I hear what Bryan and Van are saying but you guys are both talking about only two specific snakes. Timbers and Lutosus don't act the same as willardi, pricei tigris or any number of other western snakes so the same principles don't necessarily apply. I could see lutosus being marked, bled, and all other stuff scientific and then returning to normal routines.
Brendan, your point is well-taken that not all species (or even populations) are the same. However, the results that I've read and seen presented elsewhere apply to far more species than just horridus and lutosus. Off the top of my head, I can remember reading, discussing, or seeing similar results presented for C. oreganus, C. viridis, S. catenatus, C. tigris, C. atrox, C. lepidus, C. adamanteus, C. molossus, and C. willardi, not to mention a whole host of colubrids of all types.
Dan no one is chastising anyone for posing a snake. All of us do it and I don't have any issue with it at all. The exception to that is when people pull a gravid willardi, tiger, speck or anyone other gestating crote out of a rookery site for the sake of a photo. It happens here in AZ all the time. In fact several great willardi rookeries in southern AZ have been ruined by overzealous herpers who see a snake sitting under the edge of a rock and can't resist turning that rock over to get to the snake. Of course they put the rock right back in place (sometimes) but it's never the same. The snakes don't come back.
I dunno, the original thread was much more geared towards not harassing rattlesnakes at all rather than specifically not harassing gravid females. The willardi argument always comes up in these discussions but I still don't see how it is possible to discern detectability from abandonment. I will agree that the more harassment the snakes get, the more likely they are to stay deeper in rock crevices or otherwise deeper in crypsis, which would absolutely limit the opportunity to see the animals exhibit their cool behaviors.

Van
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Re: Rattlers

Post by azatrox »

Hmmmm....I'll echo Van's observation and note that this thread has morphed with regard to "topic" quite a few times....First it seemed to be "the less we touch and interact with them, the better...post pics if you feel otherwise", then it seemed to turn into "direct interaction with snakes at important life sites like rookeries, dens, etc. increases the probability of abandonment", which quickly morphed into "we can't really compare abandonment vs. crypsis due to the inability to find snakes in both cases", along down the line to "direct interaction with gravid females will lead to rookery abandonment".....

Interesting how the topic at hand has ebbed and flowed and in some cases changed course all together...All the way from "taking too many pics of a snake will cause it to pack it's bags" to "there's really nothing wrong with posing a snake for pics, so long as it's not a gravid female at a rookery or snakes at a densite or....."

Just goes to show that there really are many different viewpoints on what is "acceptable interaction" with regard to rattlesnake behavior....Again, I think it comes down to each individual's observations and the conclusions they draw from said observations....I have my own personal views with regard to "acceptable interaction" (just as everyone here obviously does as well) but I generally fall in line with the "lookie no touchie" idea where possible. I see far more animals than I handle, and usually my handling consists of scooting an animal off a road or holding said road cruised animal overnight for morning pics (with GPS coords taken for release after the shoot).

In situ pics are the gold standard, and I much prefer these to any other type of herp photography period.

-Kris
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Brendan
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

First off those timber shots are some of the best shots I've seen on here in a long time! Nothing beats the beauty of seeing such impressive snakes in such a relaxed state! Thanks for posting those shots Justin.

I'll let it rest at this point and move on. I think some where along the way my original intent got lost in translation. We can all compare notes and photos in ten years of doing things in our own respective ways. I get that guys like Bryan and Van have an agenda when studying a certain group of snakes and for science it is certainly justifiable. For the average guy like myself who just heads out for pics and some time in nature I have no excuse for harrassing the snakes just cuz they will eventually come back.

For those who were able to attend the biology of the rattlesnake symposium and hear guys like Harry Green saying the same thing, it was very refreshing. He started the symposium by challenging those of us there to start getting photos of snakes in undisturbed poses rather than pissed off and in strike mode.

One of the best talks of the seminar was Melissa's talk on maternal care in cerberus. There is no way they would have gathered so much good info by following standard scientific protocol. Rich and I were fortunate to have observed the den they studied for several years prior to it becomming a study site. Comparing that site to one in flag which all snakes were captured on all encounters the long term impact was dramatically different. Almost 90% of the study animals who were transmittered died for one reason or another. Maybe a coincidence but I doubt it.
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Norman D
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Norman D »

Lots of great thoughts all around. Always love reading any threads on crotes

Though I must be cliche' and say a picture paints a thousand words..... awesome photos Justin & Brendan.
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VanAR
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Re: Rattlers

Post by VanAR »

One of the best talks of the seminar was Melissa's talk on maternal care in cerberus.
I really wish I'd been there to see that talk. There have been tons of interesting reports of similar behaviors over the years on these forums and elsewhere, and it will be interesting to see how the study develops. The only unfortunate thing is how difficult it is to quantify behavior, and how uncertain or ambiguous the interpretation can be.

Van
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

True Van it is tough to sell it to most "scientists". You guys are a hard sell but I suppose that's a good thing. Funny how some guys on here have opinions on stuff that they only read about in books and on forums but have little to no field experience with. Always makes me scratch my head!! LOL (Not directed at you Van). :)

Norm I'm with ya on that!! Gotta love a photo of snakes being snakes. And thanks!
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Re: Rattlers

Post by DIAMONDBACK DAVE »

LOL..... Heres a short summary I wrote awhile back... . I do not agree entirely with ugh, in that visitation, even if often, has a detremantal effect if practised with poise and tact, giving snakes both room and respect while photographing or observing. It is given that different species and like species within differing physographical areas will be affected differently in accord to their natural reactions towards both immediate and accumalated stress

. The visitation to rattlesnake denning areas during spring or fall visits, and to summertime basking and gestation areas definitively has an effect, but the degree of which native rattlesnakes are affected, and the modification to their natural behavior varies immensely. This effect in most instances can be directly correlated with the behavior of the persons during their respective visits to rattlesnake locations.

There are a growing number of individuals who have taken it upon themselves to monitor and check on their favorite locations for many years running. Many of these individuals specifically choose not to physically interact with the snakes because they feel in doing so will result in what has been termed the “Spook Factor”

The “Spook Factor“, put simply, is a condition in which the majority of native snakes exhibit a reluctance to openly thermoregulate in or occupy areas where they (the snakes) have experienced disturbance, in almost all cases, from physical interaction with people. Capture, restraint, handling, hooking, moving, bagging, processing and even touching are all forms of physical interaction. Often a single physical interaction can result in the snake abandoning the area. It has been expressed by several long running biologists and observers, that handling snakes at one area, and causing the animals to musk in a defensive reaction, may lead to site abandonment by other snakes as well, the musk serving to notify others snakes of the presence of a predator. Physical disturbance to refugia at thermoregulatory sites, such as turning rocks, often has the same effect, and also resulting in a change of conditions making it unsuitable for the physiological needs of the animal.

Site abandonment by “spooked” snakes may have much more hidden implications, especially in the more northern latitude, or higher altitude extremities of a species range, where populations may already be stressed from phenological constraint due to seasonal limitations during odd years. Preferred thermoregulatory sites in these populations may be at a premium, and scaring snakes away from such sites may have major physiological impacts, leading to lesser fitness and reproductive success in individual snakes, and thus the population as a whole.

Having “spooked” snakes usually leads to two outcomes, and that is less and less snakes capable of being observed in areas where they would be normally, and a predictable response from the snakes that are. Spooked snakes are far more prone to rattle at visitors, and also act defensively or dive under cover in a fear response. This also makes observation problematic, as spooked snakes will often rattle and immediately seek cover from distances as far away as 60 feet from an approaching observer. It can be safely assumed that triggering such fear responses leads to a greater stress accumulation factor regarding the snakes. In areas where observers have regularly visited denning or basking sites of rattlesnakes for years, and never touched a snake, keeping a respectable distance to observe and photograph, snakes often show much less fear response by rattling or seeking cover, and it can be safely assumed that there is a far less stress factor involved. Respectful observers often find that the snakes are present when and where they are expected to be.

Observing snakes from a short distance, usually from 8-10 feet away, and moving in a slow and respectful manner, especially under certain weather conditions, is often all that is necessary not to illicit a fear response. In most cases, even frequent visitations to the same areas carried out in this manner most often leads to no observable change in behavior, or stress in the animals.

DBD
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reptilist
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Re: Rattlers

Post by reptilist »

I have quantified that you can always trust a rattlesnake.

:beer:
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Dan Krull
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Re: Rattlers

Post by Dan Krull »

I didn't intend to imply that this post or anyone in it was specifically attacking people who handle snakes. I just meant it generally.

I have seen posts here in the past get pretty harsh comments for handling or posing crotes. Harsh to the point of harassment and libel. I was refferring more to that sort of behaviour than to this post specifically.

I think the arguments placed here are extremely valuable, and well thought out; especially when compared with the pissing matches I've seen erupt here in the past.


It is in conversations like this that the real value of this forum becomes extremely evident. No one person here has the perfect answer, but each of us adding our 10cents bit by bit builds the framework of our collective moral compass. It allows us to set our level of acceptence in regard to field herping behaviour.

In the midst of this discussion, we are given the chance to expand our points of view, firm our opinions, and teach others. Indeed, many newbie herpers have no conception of these moral concepts. I was lucky to have many herp mentors who taught me to respect animals, and to realize the impact of my actions, but not everyone is so lucky.

This forum is a place where those "lost souls" have a chance to learn these complex concepts from more experienced herpers. This is SO important, because it offsets something that many people see as a drawback to having a forum like this: Increased interest in field herping.

Yes, when you post pics of a pile of horridus with mommy, it makes kids want to get out and look for horridus. This could be a bad thing, but if at the same time they are being stimulated to go hunt, they are learning how to hunt morally, the impact will be far less. AND, we will reap the benefit of many more voices speaking out in favor of snakes and their conservation.

I hope that all debates on this subject and others, such as free handling hots, will remain this civil and constructive in the future.

Dan
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Brendan
Posts: 435
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Rattlers

Post by Brendan »

DIAMONDBACK DAVE wrote:
Observing snakes from a short distance, usually from 8-10 feet away, and moving in a slow and respectful manner, especially under certain weather conditions, is often all that is necessary not to illicit a fear response. In most cases, even frequent visitations to the same areas carried out in this manner most often leads to no observable change in behavior, or stress in the animals.

DBD
Very well put Dave! I'm in total agreement.

Dan we always try to place as nice as possible in this sand box! ;)
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Kent VanSooy
Posts: 1100
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:51 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: Rattlers

Post by Kent VanSooy »

I hear the echoes of Heisenberg in this discussion...
The notion of the observer becoming a part of the observed system is fundamentally new in physics. In quantum physics, the observer is no longer external and neutral, but through the act of measurement he becomes himself a part of observed reality. This marks the end of the neutrality of the experimenter.
I might add the following corollary: the more serpents one has observed in their life, the more likely they are to observe them in-situ with minimal interaction.

I too have enjoyed the discussion here - great stuff all the way around! :beer:
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azatrox
Posts: 793
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Rattlers

Post by azatrox »

Dan brings up an excellent point….I can’t speak for the rest of the country, but here in Arizona there seems to be a contingent of herpers that think that everything should be kept “secret”…When a rook comes on the scene (especially an out of state rook), and starts asking questions about how/where/when to look for animals, more often than not they’re met with deafening silence…This has perhaps given the impression that Az herpers are less than helpful when it comes to sharing info or helping fellow herpers….

There’s also a contingent of herpers that are generally helpful when it comes to answering questions and giving pointers. While not giving specific locales, these people do offer insights and pointers regarding methods, times, habitat, etc. to new people…

There’s even a debate about posting pics “in season” as there’s the belief that doing so might create a mad rush for a certain species…Yes, posting pics can “stoke the fires” so to speak…but if the fires are stoked, then the fires were there to begin with and the people that would go in search of these animals were likely going to do so regardless of whether one posts a pic or not. I typically hardly ever post on public forums anymore (save a big EOY post) but if someone wants to post pics from their Az trip, so be it….I would simply hope that they use discretion when doing so and refrain from posting pis with easily identifiable landmarks in them.

Point being, the “secret” camp is fighting a losing battle IMO….There’s already a plethora of information available via public resources….so much so that pretty much anyone can do the research, target their species and probably find it. I think our responsibility is to try to ensure that when rooks do find the animals they seek (or any animal for that matter) they respect that animal and act responsibly.

I think it’s important to remember that we were all rooks at one point, and in most cases if we hadn’t had someone to “show us the ropes”, we wouldn’t be where we are today (in a position to help others). Whether we do so or not is entirely up to us.
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reptilist
Posts: 653
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 9:30 am
Location: Clifton, Arizona

Re: Rattlers

Post by reptilist »

Not only that, but I wonder just what the percentage of field herpers who frequent internet forums on herping is; compared to all the field herpers who do not. All our cumulative advice and good intentions is probably just preaching to the choir, and the sinners don't even come to church.
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