Wild caught albinos???

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Ross Padilla
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Ross Padilla » December 22nd, 2010, 6:57 pm

Terry Vandeventer wrote:I'm guessing that that snake was the result of captive breeding or was captured in the wild as an escapee. Either way, captive produced.
I've never heard of any leucistic Gopher snakes, just Southern Pines. Any way its a Pine? I can't tell by head shape.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Ryan Sikola » December 22nd, 2010, 6:58 pm

Harold of the Rocks wrote: So far there are some poss. hets produced.
Ben
Are the hets bug eyed as well?

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by jdustin » December 22nd, 2010, 10:13 pm

I'm guessing that that snake was the result of captive breeding or was captured in the wild as an escapee. Either way, captive produced. Does anybody know of any legitimately wild-born leucistic snake of any kind that possessed the bug-eyed trait?
Well, if we consider a wild caught one must be an escaped captive, then how could one ever be proven to be "legitimately wild-born"?
I'll let Ben tell his own stories, but my understanding is that this animal was found in the wild.

And Ben, if your animal has produced any offspring, they should be 100% hets. :)

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Mike Waters » December 23rd, 2010, 12:27 am

I have seen the offspring of the bug eyed gopher and they look 100% normal gopher. With normal size eyes. I also know that Ben's avatar is his senior picture. :lol:

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Harold of the Rocks » December 23rd, 2010, 9:48 am

Hey Terry,
Im not trying to sound defensive here.
Have you or anyone else here heard or seen of the luecistic trait in any pit besides Southern Pines, I haven't. But Ross nailed it ive had a few people tell me that's a leucistic Texas rat.
So i have a few bug eyed sheds laying around if anyone is up for counting scales send me a PM with your addressee and ill send one your way. The count will come out perfect for a pacific Gopher.
Here's one more weird thing about this animal to discredit me a bit more, he has 2 yellow stripes running down his back?
Thanks for the input so far,
Ben
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Ross Padilla
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Ross Padilla » December 23rd, 2010, 10:39 am

It looks like a pit from the head alone, I believe you when you say the scale count is right. The yellow stripes are odd. I have no idea whats going on there.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Terry Vandeventer » December 23rd, 2010, 1:34 pm

Leucistic snakes have been recorded in many species. To name a few; Southern Pine, Eastern Diamondback, Burmese Python, Ball Python, Eastern Hognose, Amazon Treeboa, Texas Ratsnake, etc. I personally introduced the leucistic Western Cottonmouth into the trade.

I'm pretty much out of the breeding business these days, at least on a major scale. But as I said, as far as I know, no wild-bred & born leucistic snake has ever been captured which possessed the bug-eyed trait. At this point, it only seems to appear in baby leucistic snakes which were purposely bred for leucism. The bug eyes are simply a trait linked to leucism. The hets do not have bug eyes.

This youngster is several months old and already developing the bug eyes. It was born normal. The white mother was collected in the wild as a newborn and lived for over twenty years. Except for being snow-white, she had perfect eyes with the typical Agkistrodon canthus to the end of her days. All of her het babies stayed normal their whole lives ( still have them as well as several white specimens, the latter of which display various degrees of bug-eyed-ness ;) )

Cheers,

TV
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Harold of the Rocks » December 23rd, 2010, 5:03 pm

Ok so here are some thoughts
1 Terry you are obviously way more experienced on this topic i am.
2 Do leucistic animals display yellow like this one?
3 This critter had giant bug eyes from day 1 and has always been completely blind.
4 If we can all agree this is a Gopher snake and not a Pine snake and nobody has ever produced one, then who produced this one for several generations only to let go in its natural habitat for someone else to find.
5 whats up with the stripes?
I mean no disrespect , im actually learning a lot from this,
i really dont much care for Pitouphis there big and smelly. If this were a new Rosy morph then i would be all giddy.
Ben

here's a Bugg eyed baby pic
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by FunkyRes » December 23rd, 2010, 5:10 pm

Is it possible that what happened to that snake is not genetic?

I believe color and pattern are one of last things to develop in a snake.

I know the white-sided morphs are related to how the mutation impacts pattern development, perhaps the mutation is responsible for yellow along the sides as well.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Harold of the Rocks » December 23rd, 2010, 6:09 pm

I think its very possible its not simple recessive and just a one off freak.
Ill know in 2012 when the hets are old enough to breed back.
I hope to find a striped male next spring for some different poss. hets. while still keeping this a locality pure project.
and yes i do have a CA cap. prop. permit
thanks Ben

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by jdustin » December 23rd, 2010, 7:05 pm

Add Grey-banded kingsnake to the list. This one is from Christopher Baubel's website. And actually, the image on the main page kind of looks like it has the yellow lines... maybe it's just me.
http://www."not allowed"/pyros/index.html

He mentions on the site that his bloodline "came from Val Verde County, Texas", "and produced the first Leucistic Grey-bands in 2007."
Considering this image is labeled "Leucistic male, 2007", this bug-eyed critter appears to be the first gen of leucistic grey-banded, yet has the bug eyes.
Image
This is such an interesting topic. Very cool looking freaks for sure!

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Gyri » December 23rd, 2010, 9:02 pm

In regard to the yellow striping, it strikes me as a random anomaly that can't really be called anything in particular. I have a leucistic texas rat that has 1 black scale and a couple of small reddish smears across two or three scales. I would expect that many breeders would call such things "defects" and that work would be done to breed the blemishes out. In your case it might be considered a perk that people are interested in keeping.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by herpseeker1978 » December 24th, 2010, 2:11 am

This a a captive from the houston zoo:
Image
"Blanco"
Image
http://www.houstonzooblogs.org/zoo/2009 ... alligator/
I believe he came from the same place as these from Gatorland:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... thumb.html
Notice the normal coloring on its lip. Also, the pics on the 2nd link almost look bug-eyed as well. What do you think?

Josh

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 24th, 2010, 11:01 am

Natalie McNear wrote:And they are pretty strict about the term "albino", using it only in the purest sense - a "white animal with red eyes" is how they phrase it, I believe. That means that simple amelanistic animals (like many of the ones posted on this thread, which a lot of people refer to as "albino") would technically be illegal to sell in California because although they have red eyes, they are not white in color. It also rules out leucistic animals, which are solid white but have dark eyes. Not that it seems to be strictly enforced though - I've seen amelanistic (not albino) rattlesnakes for sale in stores here.
Still trying to figure out how "amelanistic" would not be albino. They are one in the same. You're right though, amelanistic amphibians and reptiles are NOT white. They simply lack melanin. I'm not sure what the laws are there now, but I lived in San Diego county, which has very strict laws. Even more strict than CA laws. I couldn't keep any native herps, CB or otherwise. That means that batch of baby kings I found which included several albinos had to be left where I found them and I couldn't bring my albino Thamnophis maricanus with me when I moved there since there is an isolated population of them in east San Diego county.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by FunkyRes » December 24th, 2010, 11:05 am

concinnusman wrote: Still trying to figure out how "amelanistic" would not be albino. They are one in the same.
I don't think so.
I believe all amelanstic animals are albino but not all albino are amel.

Leucism is a type of albinism, at least by some definitions of albinism.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 24th, 2010, 11:21 am

FunkyRes wrote:
concinnusman wrote: Still trying to figure out how "amelanistic" would not be albino. They are one in the same.
I don't think so.
I believe all amelanstic animals are albino but not all albino are amel.

Leucism is a type of albinism, at least by some definitions of albinism.
I think that perhaps you're thinking that tyrosinase-positive albinos are not amelanistic. They are. Tyrosinase is an enzyme in a pigment cell which helps change tyrosine to DOPA during the process of making melanin. DOPA is the common name for a natural chemical (3, 4-dihydroxyphenylalanine) made by the body during the process of making melanin. Either way, any type of albino is indeed amelanistic because melanin never does actually get produced, even if the animal appears to be not completely lacking melanin. Albino's of all types lack melanin (but not necessarily lacking melanin pre-cursers) and can therefore be called amelanistic. It doesn't matter that there appears to be many degrees of albinism. They are still all amelanistic. If they do indeed produce melanin, then they are not amelanistic, and therefore not albino. Technically, leucism is not albino, and it's not amelanistic. The eyes are dark, indicating the presence of melanin. Melanin is not present in the skin, but it is in the eyes. Therefore it is not amelanistic, and not albino. Leucistic snakes are not white because they lack pigment. They are white because the pigment that is present is white.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by FunkyRes » December 24th, 2010, 11:34 am

Melanin is produced in leucistic specimens of many species that are still called albino.
There is a leucistic squirrel in my neighborhood. It has dark eyes. Melanin is being produced, just not used for pattern on the rest of the squirrel, but it is in the eyes.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 24th, 2010, 11:57 am

Well then that would make the squirrel leucistic, not amelanistic (a.k.a. albino) but yeah, I've seen those too. They're pretty common in Maryland and Virginia and more common than normals in the Washington D.C. area.

I'm no expert but that bug eyed snake doesn't strike me as being a Pituophis. I still think it's probably captive bred, whatever it is. Oh, and leucistic texas rat snakes don't have stripes. I've seen several of them in person. They are completely white and usually not bug-eyed.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by FunkyRes » December 24th, 2010, 12:01 pm

concinnusman wrote:Well then that would make the squirrel leucistic, not amelanistic (a.k.a. albino)
But leucism is considered to be a type of albinism by many, hence the need for DF&G to specify their intent.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 24th, 2010, 12:13 pm

Image
Image

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Natalie McNear » December 24th, 2010, 1:36 pm

Albinism and amelanism are not synonymous in reptiles because they have other kinds of pigment as well - xanthin and erythrin. The definition of albinism is that the animal is white - "albino" comes from the Latin word for white. That means the animal is not only amelanistic, but also axanthic and anerythristic. With simple amelanism though, xanthin and erythrin are still present, making the animal orange colored and therefore not albino (white). Since mammals only have one kind of pigment (melanin), amelanism results in a white animal and is synonymous with albinism. The difference between albinism and leucism, from what I've always read, is that albinism removes pigment from all parts of the body, including neural tissue, which is why the eyes are red. Leucism means only the skin is unpigmented, so the eyes are dark.

What I don't get is this whole T+ and T- amelanism that seems to be all the rage with captive breeders nowadays. Unless you're taking a tissue sample to a lab and getting it tested for the presence of tyrosinase, there is no way to tell if the animal is T+ or T- because the end result (amelanism) looks identical no matter what causes it. Animals with reduced black pigment are hypomelanistic, but there's no way to tell what's causing it unless you do some kind of lab test.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 24th, 2010, 2:15 pm

Natalie McNear wrote:Albinism and amelanism are not synonymous in reptiles because they have other kinds of pigment as well - xanthin and erythrin. The definition of albinism is that the animal is white - "albino" comes from the Latin word for white. That means the animal is not only amelanistic, but also axanthic and anerythristic. With simple amelanism though, xanthin and erythrin are still present, making the animal orange colored and therefore not albino (white). Since mammals only have one kind of pigment (melanin), amelanism results in a white animal and is synonymous with albinism. The difference between albinism and leucism, from what I've always read, is that albinism removes pigment from all parts of the body, including neural tissue, which is why the eyes are red. Leucism means only the skin is unpigmented, so the eyes are dark.

What I don't get is this whole T+ and T- amelanism that seems to be all the rage with captive breeders nowadays. Unless you're taking a tissue sample to a lab and getting it tested for the presence of tyrosinase, there is no way to tell if the animal is T+ or T- because the end result (amelanism) looks identical no matter what causes it. Animals with reduced black pigment are hypomelanistic, but there's no way to tell what's causing it unless you do some kind of lab test.
Oh boy, you've done it now.
I don't agree that a snake is not albino just because it has red or yellow pigments. The key here is amelanism. No melanin makes it albino. And they aren't white dangit. Leucistic snakes are white. Albinos lack pigment entirely, in the areas that are supposed to have dark pigments. White, leucistic snakes don't lack pigment in the white areas. The pigment is there, it's just that the pigment is white. Jeez! You are correct that a snake with reduced melanin is not albino. It's hypomelanistic. Melanin is present in hypomelanistic animals, (at amounts far less than a normal) which is why they aren't called albino!

Plains garter snakes:

T+ amelanistic (albino)
The darker areas you are seeing is not melanin. In fact, there's not really any pigment there at all. It's tyrosinase. They are albino in the sense that there is no melanin. The yellow pigment is unaffected, normal pigment. It's presence does not mean that the snake isn't albino. The presence of normal yellow pigment is irrelevant.

Image

T- amelanistic (albino) same species: (my snake)

Image

They are both albino and both types are far from identical. They completely lack melanin, and completely lack pigment cells in the areas that are supposed to have melanin. That doesn't mean they're white but it does mean they are albino. Look closely at the second snake. The areas completely lacking pigment (melanin) in this example, appear purple or bluish. That's actually just blood being seen through the skin because there is no pigment to block your view. When this snake eats, those areas turn red (oxygenated blood) In your definition, a "white" animal, would make only Leucistic or amelanstic+axanthic snakes to be albino. That's absurd.

Even "snow" snakes, as they call them, which are albino too (amelanstic, axanthic and/or anerythristic at the same time) are not white. They are pink or purplish looking. No pigment to block the view of the blood underneath. In fact, when they are young, you can often see through them and see their guts and heart beating.
Image

You don't see that in Leucistic snakes because they don't lack pigment. They have it. It's just that it's white. They also do not lack melanin since it's in their eyes. There's a difference!

Albino snakes are not white and they don't have to lack ALL pigment colors to be albino. They only need to be lacking melanin.

"the end result (amelanism) looks identical no matter what causes it". Wrong!

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Natalie McNear » December 24th, 2010, 4:00 pm

Well this seems to all stem from differences in the definitions of the term "albino". Some people say an animal can have red/yellow pigment and still be albino, but I believe, based on what I've learned from biology textbooks, the CA DFG, and the Latin language, that an albino animal must be white. That's just intrinsically what albus and the derivative term albino mean. Simply being amelanistic does not make an animal albino to me. I never claimed to be an expert on this stuff and I don't keep up on terms the breeders use, I just go by the biological definitions.

Regarding leucistic animals, that's another gray area that I suspect again has simply to do with people's differing definitions. I always read that leucism does not affect neural tissue while albinism does. I've not noticed much difference in the whiteness of albino and leucistic animals - all the hatchling leucistic ratsnakes I've seen have been pink and slowly become white with age, just like the albinos. I always assumed this was because the layer of keratin (which is whitish) becomes thicker as the snake grows. The birders, on the other hand, often have a completely different definition of what leucism is - ask them what a leucistic bird is, and most of them will tell you it's a bird with reduced dark pigment, what most of us would refer to as hypomelanistic. That's why I prefer to stick with the species-neutral biological definitions, because each hobby has its own opinions on what these terms mean.

I know next to nothing about all this tyrosinase stuff. Are you saying the tyrosinase (an enzyme) functions as a pigment in reptiles? That would be news to me.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Ross Padilla » December 24th, 2010, 8:42 pm

concinnusman's definitions of albino are exactly how I've always seen the term described in snakes. Before Cal kings could be sold as pets in CA, albino's were commonly found in pet shops from hatchlings to adults. The adults were almost white but you could still see the slight lavender tint to the scales. They always had yellow rings or stripes. If the term albino was meant to be solid white by F&G, I doubt albino Cal kings would have been available everywhere. Just my view of things.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Natalie McNear » December 24th, 2010, 9:25 pm

True, but then again, California Kings have no red pigment and very little yellow pigment to begin with, so an amelanistic animal is for all intents and purposes a "white animal with red eyes" and would therefore fall under the "legal" definition of albino. Does anyone know if amelanistic gophersnakes were legal to sell back then? They contain large amounts of red and yellow pigments, so I doubt if the CA government would have considered them albino even though they have red eyes (though that doesn't necessarily mean that people wouldn't have labelled them as albino and sold them anyway). :?

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Ross Padilla » December 24th, 2010, 10:44 pm

Natalie McNear wrote:California Kings have no red pigment and very little yellow pigment to begin with, so an amelanistic animal is for all intents and purposes a "white animal with red eyes" and would therefore fall under the "legal" definition of albino.
Is that your opinion or is that a fact the law interprets them that way? Does the law say the albino must be white or does it call it a white albino? Educate me please. :D I was unaware of that.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 25th, 2010, 2:10 am

Natalie McNear wrote: That's why I prefer to stick with the species-neutral biological definitions, because each hobby has its own opinions on what these terms mean.

I know next to nothing about all this tyrosinase stuff. Are you saying the tyrosinase (an enzyme) functions as a pigment in reptiles? That would be news to me.
Umm.. the scientific, or bioligist's word for "Albino" is "Amelanistic" and I suppose that is my point. Forget about the hobby and forget about the CA law for a minute. In biology, an albino animal is "Amelanistic" and that's all it takes. If the animal happens to also have red or yellow pigment, then fine. It's still albino as long as it lacks melanin entirely. Any other animal in the hobby, or otherwise, that is called "albino" but has functioning melanin pigment cells, is not truly albino. A leucistic snake is also not a true albino. You've probably heard of white deer with black eyes. They aren't albino either. Their skin and eyes have normal pigment cells.

And no, tyrosinase does not function as a pigment. The color you see in the T+ albino snake is not pigment. There are no pigment cells in those areas and those areas still are somewhat translucent because of the lack of pigment. In that type of albino, it's just an incomplete effort to produce melanin pigment cells. The tyrosinase gives the skin a sort of lavender tint to it, but there's not actually any pigment in those areas.

Perhaps the definition of albino by CA law was described out of ignorance, or else they worded it like that on purpose so as to make no truly albino animal fit the description. The albino (amelanistic) CA slender salamanders I found were pink, with pink eyes, and so, not "white with red eyes" They were albino without a doubt, but not white! The baby kings I found in San Diego were also definitely not white, but they were definitely albino because they completely lacked melanin, and had pink eyes.

One of the albinos was striped, the other two were ringed phase. I found 3 albinos and several normals, newly hatched, under a piece of plywood. The clutch included normals and albinos in both striped and ringed phases. Their empty eggshells were right there with them.

They looked just like this fella.
Image
while most of his body doesn't appear white, those areas that are supposed to be dark, lack pigment entirely. The areas that are yellow, do have pigment. Xanthophores, to be exact. Amelanism (albinism) doesn't have any affect on xanthophores and so those areas are not translucent, and have normal yellow pigment. If those rings were white, the difference between white pigment, and a complete lack of pigment would be very clear to the observer. If the snake was albino AND axanthic at the same time, his entire body would look like the areas that lack pigment, and in the hobby, would be called "snow". (in order to produce a snake that lacks all pigment, one would have to produce a snake that is homozygous for both amelanism and axanthism. Or in some cases, amelanistic and anerythristic)

amelanistic (albino) red-sided garter snake completely lacks melanin but has normal red and yellow pigment:
Image

"snow" red-sided garter snake lacks all pigment and can therefore techincally be called amelanistic+anerythristic/axanthic. It is homozygous for amelanism, but also another gene mutation that causes it to lack red and yellow pigment as well. Both of these snakes lack melanin and both can accurately be called "albino" but neither one can accurately be described as "white" BTW, this snow was produced in captivity by Jeff Benfer. A snake like this would never occur naturally since it involves more than one mutation but the albino above does occur naturally since it's just a single allele, or "single point" mutation.
Image

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Natalie and others...

Post by Mitchell Mulks » December 25th, 2010, 11:50 am

California DFG only really looks at the red/pink eye coloration. They do not expect the snake to be solid white, as generally only leucistic animals are pure white. They simply refer to eye color. This is why t+ albinos won't cut it because they generally have pigmentation in the eye. This is also why lavender cal kings don't count as albinos. The prevalence of albinos in cal kings, gophers, and rosys was the reason that DFG allowed the commercialization of these species - too many hets were floating around out there.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by jdustin » December 25th, 2010, 4:37 pm

Yeah, I'm sorry Natalie, but I've never heard of anyone else say that to be albino an animal must be anery and axanthic as well. My understanding is that albinism is caracterized by lacking melanin, like several others have mentioned.
As for F&G, I believe this is their definition:
(7) Albino Native Reptiles. Albino reptiles are defined as individual native reptiles lacking normal body pigment and having red or pink eyes. No permit is required for the possession, propagation, importation, exportation, transportation, purchase or sale of captively-bred native albino reptiles or amphibians. The provisions of section 5.60 apply to the taking and possession of albino native reptiles from the wild.
No offense to them, but if you read F&G's definition literally you'll find that only CA native herps can even be albino! :D

Now here's a T+ and T- rosy boa for comparison, just for kicks. (Limburg on top, and WW on bottom)
Full size
Image

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Natalie McNear » December 25th, 2010, 5:21 pm

Perhaps I'm just hallucinating from this gnarly cold from hell I came down with a couple days ago :crazyeyes:, but I swear I've read some regulations from CA DFG that specifically stated that the animal must be "white with red eyes" to be considered albino. I can't access those regs from my phone right now, so I'll do some searching when I get back to California. The tyrosinase thing still bothers me - if it's not melanin making the dark coloration, and the enzyme itself is colorless (as are the various melanin precursors it effects), what's making the dark/black coloration on the animal?

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn » December 25th, 2010, 7:12 pm

Harold of the Rocks wrote:Here is a Pacific Gopher a friend of mine found as a hatchling and later gave to me.
So far there are some poss. hets produced. Image
Ben
I never name my herps, but I would make an exception and call that one Marty Feldman.

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Harold of the Rocks
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Harold of the Rocks » December 25th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Lloyd Heilbrunn wrote

"I never name my herps, but I would make an exception and call that one Marty Feldman."



With your permission Lloyd Ill change his name to Marty.
That's a way better name than "the weird buggeyed snake in the Rosy Rack"

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by hellihooks » December 25th, 2010, 8:38 pm

"No.... it's eye-gore" (Marty in Young Frankenstein) LOL jim

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concinnusman
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 27th, 2010, 2:20 am

Natalie McNear wrote:Perhaps I'm just hallucinating from this gnarly cold from hell I came down with a couple days ago :crazyeyes:, but I swear I've read some regulations from CA DFG that specifically stated that the animal must be "white with red eyes" to be considered albino. I can't access those regs from my phone right now, so I'll do some searching when I get back to California. The tyrosinase thing still bothers me - if it's not melanin making the dark coloration, and the enzyme itself is colorless (as are the various melanin precursors it effects), what's making the dark/black coloration on the animal?
No matter how it's worded, as most laws restricting the possession, sale, etc.. of herps, it's ridiculous. Many laws as they are written are either impossible to enforce, making them completely useless, (for example, had I collected those albinos and sold them, claiming they were CB, how would they know the difference?) or they are cancelled out by other laws. Who the heck is going to be breeding albinos without making hets or possesing hets at some point anyway?

Don't even get me started on Oregon. In Oregon it's easier to possess and sell an Egyption cobra, than it is to sell a garter snake, the way the laws are written. To make matters worse, if it's any T. sirtalis, they consider it native. They don't recognize subspecies for the purpose of enforcement. Same goes for Washington. If you live there, it's illegal to have any T. sirtalis, (they don't acknowledge subspecies) and so, one can't have even an eastern garter for a pet, but if you have a cobra, or a full grown python capable of eating it's owner, it's no problem! C'mon!

Sorry, I know I got off topic but who writes this stuff?

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FunkyRes
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by FunkyRes » December 27th, 2010, 9:07 am

I can understand why they don't recognize subspecies.
Subspecies designations undergo change, invalidations, etc. - less of a hassle to simply ignore them.

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jdustin
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by jdustin » December 28th, 2010, 2:21 pm

That's interesting. I'm curious in case anyone knows, how does CA handle those native herps that cross interstate (or international) lines?

As I understand it, the subspecies of zonata were done away with... but you can still keep agalma in CA? Are they only allowed because you can tell them apart visually?
And what about rosy boas? I don't believe CA regulates rosys from non-california localities, yet some of them can be really hard to distinguish from their CA cousins, and many are the same subspecies. How do they handle that? Anyone know?

I'm suddenly very happy I don't live in CA... and that I don't keep anything that lives natively in my state. :)

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by FunkyRes » December 28th, 2010, 2:32 pm

Out of state origins but same subspecies as defined in CA regulations still fall under CA DF&G regulations.
IE we can't import and sell Wandering Garters with, say, Colorado origins.

Importing a Cal King from an East Coast breeder means it isn't legally captive bred under DF&G permit so you can only have 4 in possession. I don't believe they actually enforce that though unless you are applying for breeding permit.

Baja zonata are legal because DF&G considers them to be a different subspecies, but I won't keep any because I'm afraid the regs will change if/when invalidation of Baja subspecies is accepted by DF&G.

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Mitchell Mulks
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Mitchell Mulks » December 28th, 2010, 3:36 pm

With respect to the reclassification of zonata...Collins did so against the recommendation of the authors of the paper he cites as the main reference to his taxonomic changes! Rodriguez-Robles et. al., 1999 recommended that although the current taxonomy of zonata has some serious issues and does not match the results of their mtDNA study, that no taxonomic revisions be made UNTIL further studies (i.e., morphological or nDNA) be done. No further studies have been published since that 1999 paper (although my main manuscript is currently getting hashed out and might address some of these issues) so Collins should have listened to recommendations of the authors and not done away with the subspecific status of zonata.

Mitch

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Fundad
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Fundad » December 28th, 2010, 11:16 pm

So i have a few bug eyed sheds laying around if anyone is up for counting scales send me a PM with your addressee and ill send one your way. The count will come out perfect for a pacific Gopher.
Image


Smooth Scales? Pattern not right.. Eyes not right..

Not a Pacific gopher snake IMO..


Fundad

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Harold of the Rocks
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Harold of the Rocks » December 29th, 2010, 8:12 am

Then take the Pepsi challenge on this one Fundad... Count some scales.
Don't just be an online naysayer, get all the facts up close and then bust my balls.
I would really appreceat an informed person such as yourself having a look at this thing
Ben

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Fundad » December 29th, 2010, 8:29 am

Then take the Pepsi challenge on this one Fundad... Count some scales.
Don't just be an online naysayer, get all the facts up close and then bust my balls.
I would really appreceat an informed person such as yourself having a look at this thing
Ben
Then take the Pepsi challenge on this one Fundad... Count some scales.
Don't just be an online naysayer, get all the facts up close and then bust my balls.
I would really appreceat an informed person such as yourself having a look at this thing
Ben
Not busting your balls Ben, I did say "IMO"(which is worthless 90% of the time :lol: )... Its a cool looking snake regardless of what it is.
I would have to see it live in person.

Not sure I am qualified to ID with extreme confidence from a shed.

Gopher snakes have keeled scales, the snake pictured in your picture has smooth scales.

Just Sayin
Fundad

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Harold of the Rocks
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Harold of the Rocks » December 29th, 2010, 9:06 am

Your right about the scales, there is just the faintest keele to them. there also wafer thin like they didnt fully develop.
Ill be in your area in Feb. I can see if she wants to go for a ride.
Otherwise if you find yourself up north feel free to stop by and take a look.
(ask Mr. Waters about this, he can shed some light on it too.)
Ben

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Mike Waters
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Mike Waters » December 29th, 2010, 10:34 am

Harold of the Rocks wrote:Your right about the scales, there is just the faintest keele to them. there also wafer thin like they didnt fully develop.
Ill be in your area in Feb. I can see if she wants to go for a ride.
Otherwise if you find yourself up north feel free to stop by and take a look.
(ask Mr. Waters about this, he can shed some light on it too.)
Ben
I have never seen the big eyed snake her self but i have seen her offspring and they look 100% pac gopher. Now, if it is possible to breed a luecistic rat, to a gopher and get pure looking gopher babys then Ben just might be full of bologna.

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by hellihooks » December 29th, 2010, 10:47 am

What with all the other congenital abnormalities 'igor' has... a lack of Keeling might understandable.... I'll bet it's thankfull it has scales at all, and didn't come out 'scaleless'... :lol: jim

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Fundad
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Fundad » December 29th, 2010, 12:06 pm

Maybe I am wrong, (maybe not :lol: :twisted: )

Fundad

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concinnusman
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 29th, 2010, 7:40 pm

I still don't think it's a gopher either. Nothing I can point out that can't be argued away, or hasn't already been argued away, however. The scale count argument is pretty flimsy though. Scale counts are useful for differentiating between two very similar species that live in the same range, but they aren't rock-solid evidence that it's a gopher snake. I personally have found T. sirtalis' with 6 upper labials one one side, 7 on the other, or even 9 upper labials when they are supposed to have 7 or 8. I've also found snakes with the wrong number of dorsal scale rows, and even divided vent scales when it's supposed to be single.

And yes, I believe it is quite possible to cross some rat snakes with a gopher snake and produce offspring that look like a normal gopher snake. In some cases, there's so little difference between the two. Besides that, just because you witness two snakes mating doesn't mean that the offspring will necessarily be from that mating. I've seen snakes have fertile clutches several years after being with a male. Could be that the mating between this freak and a normal gopher produced nothing and the clutch was fertilized by retained sperm from another normal gopher snake. Of course, if this white snake is a female, then "open mouth.. insert foot" and scratch that part about retained sperm.

Leucistic Baird's rat snake? That would make the stripes not just a fluke and they are very similar to gopher snakes.

http://www.petinfospot.com/1083/snake/r ... airds.html

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Mike Waters
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Mike Waters » December 29th, 2010, 9:02 pm

concinnusman wrote:I still don't think it's a gopher either. Nothing I can point out that can't be argued away, or hasn't already been argued away, however. The scale count argument is pretty flimsy though. Scale counts are useful for differentiating between two very similar species that live in the same range, but they aren't rock-solid evidence that it's a gopher snake. I personally have found T. sirtalis' with 6 upper labials one one side, 7 on the other, or even 9 upper labials when they are supposed to have 7 or 8. I've also found snakes with the wrong number of dorsal scale rows, and even divided vent scales when it's supposed to be single.

And yes, I believe it is quite possible to cross some rat snakes with a gopher snake and produce offspring that look like a normal gopher snake. In some cases, there's so little difference between the two. Besides that, just because you witness two snakes mating doesn't mean that the offspring will necessarily be from that mating. I've seen snakes have fertile clutches several years after being with a male. Could be that the mating between this freak and a normal gopher produced nothing and the clutch was fertilized by retained sperm from another normal gopher snake. Of course, if this white snake is a female, then "open mouth.. insert foot" and scratch that part about retained sperm.

Leucistic Baird's rat snake? That would make the stripes not just a fluke and they are very similar to gopher snakes.

http://www.petinfospot.com/1083/snake/r ... airds.html
insert foot time :lol: yeah bug eyes is a female and i have never seen animals cross bred only to have offspring (5) look just like one parent. You cross breed to animals and you get mutts. The only possible explination is that Ben (harold of the rocks) sent me normal pac gopher babies to raise up and breed as a practical joke :lol: :lol: :lol: in which case he will be banned from the southern part of california for eternity, forced to find only rubber boas, garters and salamanders :D

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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Joseph S. » December 29th, 2010, 9:14 pm

Whatever it is-it is definetly one of the ugliest snakes to grace this planet LOL. The question would be what normal gopher x rat crosses would look like.

Still no comments on the albino Brahminy blind snake? That thing is way neat-wouldn't mind one myself I'll admit.

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concinnusman
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by concinnusman » December 29th, 2010, 9:26 pm

Joseph S. wrote:Whatever it is-it is definetly one of the ugliest snakes to grace this planet LOL. The question would be what normal gopher x rat crosses would look like.

Still no comments on the albino Brahminy blind snake? That thing is way neat-wouldn't mind one myself I'll admit.
Not sure what snake you're talking about. The bug eyed monster stole the show. :crazyeyes:

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Joseph S.
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Re: Wild caught albinos???

Post by Joseph S. » December 29th, 2010, 10:10 pm

posted by Tim Borski in the earlier part of this thread. Found in Florida.

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