Timber Rattlesnake with babies

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slowbow
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by slowbow »

Lance Benedict wrote:This is not misinformation

From your environmental science son's flicker site, gravid female found under rock in August 2010 in a NATIONAL PARK:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelfki ... hotostream

Your son tubing the above snake, again, in a NATIONAL PARK
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelfki ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelfki ... hotostream

There are two messages here: 1) That's clearly illegal activity and 2) It's really bad herping etiquette. Surely you can appreciate that since you go to great lengths to stress your adherence to hunting rules and its standards of etiquette. Surely a 28-year-old with a degree should know better.

I don't condone the "ugh approach," but I can understand his concern given your sons' track record and the continuous stream of BS they put out in this thread. Their statements here haven't done anything to convince me that they have adopted more responsible herping methods.

I too am just visiting, to dispel the misinformation I became aware of that had been posted about the harassment of me personally on the day in question. I can not address past events, as I was not present. All I can do is address the events that occurred on the day in question, when I was present with camera rolling, and let the chips from that incident fall where they may.

I do like that photo of Matt. Good composition and lighting, excellent resolution. Anyways, I would like to add that I do appreciate the folks here and their dissuasion of my sons from handling rattlers. I tried to do this as well, not that I really care about the snake so much, but because I don’t see any point in putting ones safety and health at risk like that, especially when it’s one of my sons.

Even though I’ve been a critter hunter since before many of you were born, and love to find reptiles and amphibians probably as much as you “herpers” I’ve got lots to do with the whitetail deer archery season approaching. Scouting setups, prep, filming into for videos and the like.

But again I find myself having to dispel untruth. I can assure you that the photos in question were not taken in a “National Park”. I’m going to ask you nicely, once, to refrain from posting inaccurate information .

Then we can all get back to sharing the woodlands all us uncouth rednecks are funding for everyone else to enjoy. And we’ll all get along fine, just as long as no one gets in my face again and tells me what I can and can’t do on my own time while I’m on public land.
ugh

Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by ugh »

Dear slowblow(like the nickname,how'd you get that one?)-recheck your recording-you recorded our conversation right?-and get your facts straight.I have to assume you're playing games.
I can deal with dropouts,rednecks,green herpers,etc. but liars are another pet peeve. I won't even dignify your lies here with responding to all of them but I feel ok with this whole fiasco knowing I've exposed you and your klan for what you are. Good luck out there,see you in the woods! :D
snakeman1986
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by snakeman1986 »

Brick, I am absolutely appalled by your personal attack on ugh. These insults are completely unnecessary and cause me to weep. You DO NOT have to be such a meanie!!! I will be forced to take legal action if this continues, as I have been told that this is "harassment"! I will not stand for such preposterous remarks.

BenIsAlive, that is a good point you bring up. These fellows have proved that they do not respond to civil criticism. They will come up with some sort of reasoning to justify their actions.
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slowbow
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by slowbow »

ugh wrote:Dear slowblow(like the nickname,how'd you get that one?)-recheck your recording-you recorded our conversation right?-and get your facts straight.I have to assume you're playing games.
I can deal with dropouts,rednecks,green herpers,etc. but liars are another pet peeve. I won't even dignify your lies here with responding to all of them but I feel ok with this whole fiasco knowing I've exposed you and your klan for what you are. Good luck out there,see you in the woods! :D

Feel free to show your true colors to everyone on the board. Call me all the names you want.

I know what you and your friends who just showed up are.

Like I say, I`ve been dealing with enviro whacks and AR activists since you were in diapers, in the woods and in Annapolis. I know how you operate, and I know the tactics they teach you to use.

Play all the games you want,but you and I know the truth. So I think I will probably be seeing you again soon.I`ll also be keeping an eye out for your little white car. Beleive me when I say,you pull something like that again out in the woods, I will have you cuffed and carted off on the spot.
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

Seems like all you guys are calming down a bit and working through your differences :thumb:

Also if you all choose to consult with the DNR or whoever else remember that it will more then likely prevent everyone from viewing the snakes as fish and game has a tough time sorting out 'good' versus 'bad'. This happened with a species in NJ. I reported a suspicious person and as a result none of us could go to the spot anymore, I didn't have a problem with it, but its something to consider.

Mr. Kirby, I'm all for you permit/stamp that herpers should pay to help protect the species, the land, etc., I've said that idea before. I'm not a fan of tax I'm fairly far right when it comes to economics but I think if us herpers are benefiting from the land that we should help out in some way via a permit, because many of the herpers I've met and birders are freeloaders and trying to get a nickel out of them sends them into a bitching and moaning fest.

With the above said, many of the states we reside in have 99% of the R&A species listed as NON-GAME. This means no hunting or trapping. Technically given a non game status is it somewhat illegal to pursue or actively seek out any of these species listed since there is no open season. I'm not saying it is illegal to observe them, photo them if observed opportunistically. But I wonder if actively flipping, actively seeking them could be interpreted as 'hunting', which would be illegal given non game status. All the old timers I encounter call it 'snake hunting'. This isn't directed at the Kirby's, but everyone, me included, food for thought. I always keep this in the back of my mind. Question for the hunters, are you required to have a liscense if you are setting up a tree stand during deer season, scouting for deer, what defines 'hunting'.....food for thought.
Lance Benedict
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Lance Benedict »

My bad, State Park, not National Park, but what's the difference. It certainly wasn't a WMA as your son claims. The time stamp on that pic with the tubed female is 13 minutes before he arrived at a scenic spot in that State Park. So he was down the trail a short ways from there. I can tell the spot anyhow just from the minimal amount of rock shown in the pic.

I can tell you this all would have died down long ago, but every time one of you posts, even if it's basically to apologize for past methods, you have to throw in some extra defensive statement that is completely irritating in its arrogance.
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incuhead2000
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

BenIsAlive wrote:
kirbyl4 wrote:Ok just to reintegrate to the comment after my post that I apparently still tong snakes all the time. I don’t think anybody really listens and are so one minded that they cant get over certain things and are stuck taking sides. There are no sides here no right or wrong and apparently no way to move forward. Yes I have tonged snakes but once AGAIN I DID THAT AWHILE BACK I DON’T DO IT ANYMORE UNLESS THE SNAKE SEEMS TO BE IN HARMS WAY. Still I try to nudge them lightly off if the stand their ground then I feel compelled the only way to get them to move is to use my tonges. If you truly are reading my posts and actually reading them and listening you would know that. Also I know about the hooks half the time I don’t even use the tongs just slide them under snakes like a hook because I know that grabbing them pisses them off I have seen it many times. So yes I try not to tong the snake unless feel compelled and I have NEVER tonged a snake out from under a rock no need unless that goes without saying it is in danger. I have no idea where you are getting this I tong them from under rocks because that is just not true I leave them be when they are under rocks. There is no point to pull them out because if you go out enough you will come across what you want and it is just that much more rewarding. Again only if the snake is in danger I will move it out from the rock and move it along.
Im not going to bring your past or pictures(since i know nothing about that) but theres one thing I feel like I missed or something: Did you have tongs on you or your persons the day ugh approached you and your family in the woods?

If I saw you in the field, with tongs on you, you can say all you want about not useing them anymore or only useing them to save snakes from harm, but you just having them is intent to use them. I mean why else would you have them. I really don't buy the arguement of bringing them on the field for the rare chance to come up were tongs are the only option to save a snake from some kind of harm. I could see a argument of haveing them just in your car to take a snake off the road maybe, but why would you ever need them in the field at this point. I've never once been in a situation where ive thought "boy I could really use a pair of tongs right now". I also can see why someone would get riled up just seeing you with tongs in august when a majority of what you finding and looking for is adult females with babys. Why would you ever need tongs for that?

Again only if the snake is in danger I will move it out from the rock and move it along
why would a snake be in danger under a rock?
When we were encountered I had a backpack with my camera in it and my camera tripod in its case and my dad had his video camera and tripod, no tongs in hand. Justin had his hiking stick and backpack. I'm not going to make any assumptions and am not accusing him of this, but how do I know it's not also used as a snake poker? I'm sure it's not the case but if I just saw someone in the woods around a snake den carrying a stick I think we all would automatically assume ill intentions. After we returned to the car and went to a different area I did bring along my tongs to an area with other snakes, not a known timber rattlesnake den. One of my favorite things to do with my tongs is pick up snake sheds, especially when they are down in rocks and I cannot see if there is something hiding in them when I want to reach down and pick up a shed . Hope there isn't any problem with that. Sorry if you guys aren't finding sheds either, sometimes I move them in what I see as an attempt to hide the snakes presence, hope their isn't a problem with that too.

I was the one who removed the snake from under the rock last year, kirbyl4 was not with me. One of my friends took the picture and a guy with two kids that were walking along the same trail along the rocks also stopped to take pictures and ask questions about the rattlesnake, so he too also has such "evidence" of me holding the snake. I'm not saying that the snake was in danger for being under this rock next to the trail, and have already admitted to this mistake for tubing it. Benisalive, you also commented on my very first post on the forum about the holding of TRs, not sure if you remember that but it's still on the forum, so you may rememeber the pictures anyway. Hope that clears up the questions you had.

-Mike
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

slowbow wrote:
Like I say, I`ve been dealing with enviro whacks and AR activists since you were in diapers, in the woods and in Annapolis. I know how you operate, and I know the tactics they teach you to use.
Mr. Kirby, I wouldn't say these guys are enviro whacks or AR types. I know them or Justin at least, and I wouldn't say that he is that type. Put yourself in his shoes real quick from the standpoint of your craft, 'hunting'. Let's say someone was poaching your hunting sites, not following the same rules as you and the other law biding hunters. I'm not saying your sons don't follow the rules but that was Justin's impression and you helped with it by trying to get his ire up(saying the snake where going to strike the camera, etc.), which you admitted. If you see it like that you may understand his side a bit and his reactions/actions that day.

From my viewpoint Mike has admitted his faults and seems to have taken and learned a bit from the forum now and previously. I believe from reading about these guys since there arrival that Matt is newer to this hobby(thought Mike mentioned this before) and maybe a little less open to change, but he admitted in his last post he is sticking around to learn. So guys be good mentors and just move along, if you want change from these guys stop trying to call eachother out and rip into one another. I've done this and seen it happen and it won't do any good and ultimately is just going to cause you all more grief at your spots and on here.

Ok Mike you and Justin agree. Snake tongs/stick will result in the other herper thinking ill intentions. You proved his point a bit.

Actions going forward will speak louder than words. This is all just semantics on here, lots of people, LOTS say one thing on here and do something totally different when the cameras are off. LOTS. Let's just move on.
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pete
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by pete »

mr. slowbow
you must have the worst luck with people in the world!! i've carried a gun or a bow in the woods for over thirty years and have yet to meet one of your animal rights terrorists. shit when i was 19 i drove to school(montgomery college) after a successful hunt with deer legs sticking out of my trunk(checked it at Pooles store) and not a soul said a damn thing. even here in ultra liberal Massachusetts, i've yet to run across somebody critical of my activities in the woods or marshes. how do attract enough attention to warrant having dnr on speed dial?
just because something is legal doesn't always mean it's right, if you know better. If you know hooking or tonging gravid snakes can disrupt birthing activities, then why do it? not from a legal standpoint but from an ethical one. it's legal to drop a doe that has a late fawn still nursing, but would you?. practice what you preach, say what you mean and mean what you say. the woods are for everyone to enjoy, with or without scent control. we all have the responsibility to protect our resources EVEN if they don't have economic benefits.
hope this doesn't come across as more tree hugging tactics meaning to strip you of your rights,but this whole thread has gotten nauseating.

I haven't shot anything in seven years and rarely even load the shotgun anymore,but i buy my license and stamps because i enjoy going through the motions still. hope that doesn't dampen your view of me. :D
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

incuhead2000 wrote:One of my favorite things to do with my tongs is pick up snake sheds, especially when they are down in rocks and I cannot see if there is something hiding in them when I want to reach down and pick up a shed . Hope there isn't any problem with that. Sorry if you guys aren't finding sheds either, sometimes I move them in what I see as an attempt to hide the snakes presence, hope their isn't a problem with that too.

-Mike
Mike I always remove shed skins from sites that have heavy human traffic and tell others to do so. If the spot is off the beaten path enough I would leave the sheds just to help keep the scent trails intact. You can always bury them in the ground if your worried about people finding them. But its always sound practice to hide signs of a snake being in the area, be it sweeping trails marks, hiding skins, etc.
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incuhead2000
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

Lance Benedict wrote:My bad, State Park, not National Park, but what's the difference. It certainly wasn't a WMA as your son claims. The time stamp on that pic with the tubed female is 13 minutes before he arrived at a scenic spot in that State Park. So he was down the trail a short ways from there. I can tell the spot anyhow just from the minimal amount of rock shown in the pic.

I can tell you this all would have died down long ago, but every time one of you posts, even if it's basically to apologize for past methods, you have to throw in some extra defensive statement that is completely irritating in its arrogance.
You are right, it is a State Park where hunting of legal game is permitted.
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incuhead2000
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

pete wrote:mr. slowbow
you must have the worst luck with people in the world!! i've carried a gun or a bow in the woods for over thirty years and have yet to meet one of your animal rights terrorists. shit when i was 19 i drove to school(montgomery college) after a successful hunt with deer legs sticking out of my trunk(checked it at Pooles store) and not a soul said a damn thing. even here in ultra liberal Massachusetts, i've yet to run across somebody critical of my activities in the woods or marshes. how do attract enough attention to warrant having dnr on speed dial?
just because something is legal doesn't always mean it's right, if you know better. If you know hooking or tonging gravid snakes can disrupt birthing activities, then why do it? not from a legal standpoint but from an ethical one. it's legal to drop a doe that has a late fawn still nursing, but would you?. practice what you preach, say what you mean and mean what you say. the woods are for everyone to enjoy, with or without scent control. we all have the responsibility to protect our resources EVEN if they don't have economic benefits.
hope this doesn't come across as more tree hugging tactics meaning to strip you of your rights,but this whole thread has gotten nauseating.

I haven't shot anything in seven years and rarely even load the shotgun anymore,but i buy my license and stamps because i enjoy going through the motions still. hope that doesn't dampen your view of me. :D
We still have the newscast on tape when the ARAs descended on the swamps at Mckee Beschers since my Dad was on that news cast, it's on a VHS somwwhere...does anyone have one of those still???? Nowadays people get pulled over with deer legs sticking out and are getting tickets for their kill being exposed in transit. My dad knows a lot more about this stuff and all the legal issues when it comes to hunting, I just hear all the tales of Peta people taking hunter saftey classes so they can go into the field and disrupt hunters engaged in legal activity.
Lance Benedict
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Lance Benedict »

What does the hunting of legal game have to do with anything? We're talking about you tubing a nongame animal in a State Park. Once again you lost an opportunity to let things die down.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Mike VanValen »

When all is said is done, this thread should be locked and stickied. The reason being that many larval herpers will gain more from reading this thread, than from us preaching about the drama of northeast horridus.

The tit-for-tat is getting ridiculous, guys. I thought we were making some headway.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kyle loucks »

Larval Herpers
:thumb: :lol:
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VanAR
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by VanAR »

With the above said, many of the states we reside in have 99% of the R&A species listed as NON-GAME. This means no hunting or trapping. Technically given a non game status is it somewhat illegal to pursue or actively seek out any of these species listed since there is no open season. I'm not saying it is illegal to observe them, photo them if observed opportunistically. But I wonder if actively flipping, actively seeking them could be interpreted as 'hunting', which would be illegal given non game status. All the old timers I encounter call it 'snake hunting'. This isn't directed at the Kirby's, but everyone, me included, food for thought.
Check out the book "A Field Guide to Reptiles and the Law", by John Levell. Its a little outdated- the last edition was published in 1998- but most states haven't significantly changed their laws regarding herps since then (TX roadcruising being the most obvious exception I can think of).

Based on the posts here, I'm assuming the "issue" occurred in Maryland. Timbers are protected in MD, but "protection" is not clearly spelled out as it is for other states (ie does protection mean prevention of killing, possession, harassment, etc.).

For all herps other than their specifically protected species, a person may not possess more than 4 of each individual reptile or amphibian species, alive or dead. They may be collected from the wild, captively produced, or legally obtained from outside Maryland.

So, you are free to hunt, pursue, harass, capture all non-protected species as long as you are not in possession of more than 4 at a time. That is the way most states are, though some (OK, TX, AZ, etc.) require hunting or fishing licenses, and there are varying levels of restrictions on # possessed. Oddly, most states DO consider herps to be non-game, but they may be pursued/collected unlike most other "non-game". The only states where pursuit itself (aka just "herping) is prohibited include: Missouri (on public lands), New Jersey, Tennessee (weird, huh?), and Washington (except with a scientific collecting permit).

Like others have said, once you're on any State or National Park or Refuge, some State and National Forests, and some WMAs, any kind of harassment/collection becomes illegal without a permit. Pursuit is sometimes allowed as long as you're not seen off the trail, with collecting implements, or actively harassing an animal (and yes, moving a herp off the trail to protect it is seen as harassment- its BS but its just that way). Best bet is to check into getting a permit beforehand. People I herp with have actually had really good luck getting permission from these places (not National Parks) when its explained that we are doing an informal "survey" and will share all collected data with the managers.
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brick911
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

Mike VanValen wrote:Brace for impact.
Mike, do you have any advice on tomorrows lottery in PA?
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brick911
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

snakeman1986 wrote:Brick, I am absolutely appalled by your personal attack on ugh. These insults are completely unnecessary and cause me to weep. You DO NOT have to be such a meanie!!! I will be forced to take legal action if this continues, as I have been told that this is "harassment"! I will not stand for such preposterous remarks.
:sleep:
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Mike VanValen »

brick911 wrote:
Mike VanValen wrote:Brace for impact.
Mike, do you have any advice on tomorrows lottery in PA?
:lol:

I wish I did, my friend.
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

Took me a second to get that Brick but hah.

As brutal as these threads are when they play out they have alot of value. I bump into so many people who preach what everyone says here. Its the only reason why I participate on forums, because there is the ability to be a good mentor to people.

Van, thanks for all that.
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brick911
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

There actually is a ton of good info in here amongst all the garbage... mine included. I'm gonna have to reread it when I'm not too busy acting like an a$$ or looking for my next witty reply to meaningless arguments. I think I'm done for a day.
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

No bother trying to Tell people how I work I’ve tried that enough and everybody is still so single minded. I Will say it again NO WAY TO MOVE FORWARD. This argument has changed topic so many times and has gotten way off track. All in all Justin was harassing us in person. On the internet and has made what would possibly be considered a threat. I will have a state trooper I know look over what I’m talking about if anybody really cares. So again I said before and as many people have posted the laws if it was illegal for us to be back there looking for timbers then Justin is just at fault there is no denying that. so stop defending on another because if I was wrong he was wrong also other than the tong issue which I have explain whether you want to believe it or not. Again I will confirm all this with the DNR in two weeks just to be positive so there are no misinterpretations of the law. I have admitted many of my flaws and have taken a lot from these posts. I appreciate all the good input and unappreciated all the name calling and bashing apparently people don’t seem to understand that makes people shut off and basically ignore everything.
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

Come one state troopers, guys we are men deal with it amongst yourselves, state troopers have better things to do with our tax dollars than police a bunch of adult fighting about snakes. You all harrassed eachother, let it go. If Justin wanted to he could send your photo on your flickr pages with you tubing snakes at the same time. Move along, you both can be blamed in some way, deal with it like men.
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BenIsAlive
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by BenIsAlive »

incuhead2000 wrote: When we were encountered I had a backpack with my camera in it and my camera tripod in its case and my dad had his video camera and tripod, no tongs in hand. Justin had his hiking stick and backpack. I'm not going to make any assumptions and am not accusing him of this, but how do I know it's not also used as a snake poker? I'm sure it's not the case but if I just saw someone in the woods around a snake den carrying a stick I think we all would automatically assume ill intentions. After we returned to the car and went to a different area I did bring along my tongs to an area with other snakes, not a known timber rattlesnake den. One of my favorite things to do with my tongs is pick up snake sheds, especially when they are down in rocks and I cannot see if there is something hiding in them when I want to reach down and pick up a shed . Hope there isn't any problem with that. Sorry if you guys aren't finding sheds either, sometimes I move them in what I see as an attempt to hide the snakes presence, hope their isn't a problem with that too.

I was the one who removed the snake from under the rock last year, kirbyl4 was not with me. One of my friends took the picture and a guy with two kids that were walking along the same trail along the rocks also stopped to take pictures and ask questions about the rattlesnake, so he too also has such "evidence" of me holding the snake. I'm not saying that the snake was in danger for being under this rock next to the trail, and have already admitted to this mistake for tubing it. Benisalive, you also commented on my very first post on the forum about the holding of TRs, not sure if you remember that but it's still on the forum, so you may rememeber the pictures anyway. Hope that clears up the questions you had.

-Mike
I do remember comenting on your post. I was also one of the ones who pmed you and politely suggested you to take down the picture of you tubeing the rattler. You responded coroporatively and politly and handled yourself well on the forum.

When I quoted your brother, It was becuase he made it clear he was reiterating everthing he had been trying to get across, and that any questions people had of his integrity and intentions would be anwnsered. I was still confused and had questions despite this. I have still not been awnsered weather or not Kirby14 had tongs on him. That doesnt matter.

Weather or not you actually did anything illiegal is besides the point for me. If I previously saw pictures of you and your brother with pictures of you both tubeing and tonging snakes; then saw you and your family in a known birthing den with flashlights, video cameras, and large backpacks with who knows what in it(tongs?) I would feel to obligated to do or say something. Somebody along the line here said something like "how could he automatically accuse us of doing anything wrong when he doesn't know us?". Based on the little uhg did know about you(like pics and rumors of tubeing and tonging snakes) why would he not automatically asumme you were tonging, and essentially harrasing timbers with babies if you had all that suff? He doesn't know you so he wouldn't know anything controdictory to that. I don't know how your conversations went after that though.

I would definitly not do what ugh did and I with no doubt think the biggest crime here was commited twoards people, not animals. if he honestly didn't trust your intentions he should have called an athority who had the power to tell you to leave and to decide if you really were doing anything wrong. There would have been nothing wrong with that and you said yourselves you felt you were doing nothing wrong and would have been glad to talk to an athourity. I think the best thing would have been to resolve this whole thing between you guys there in the woods and this whole thing wouldn't have continued on here.

Either way I did like alot of the veiwpoints and the opinions I read here and learned alot about perspective. ha

Hopefully everyone will eventually resolve their differences cause it still sounds like we are all on the same side.
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slowbow
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by slowbow »

Pete from ma., you are not kidding. I must have a target on my back or something. Now it seems it’s following me into other outdoor activities as well as of late. Here I just thought it was because HSUS headquarters is located a few miles from where I live. You should visit your old stomping grounds, were tripping over deer down here.

You know, a good point has been raised about legalities. I’m pretty well versed in the Maryland Comar, having read through Titles 8 and 10 many times. In spite of my youngest sons zeal, If you really wanted to get picky and split hairs, disturbing any non-game wildlife on public lands in Maryland could be construed as being illegal. I agree, in a strict interpretation that would mean that even actively flipping rocks, or walking around poking your nose in crevices with the intent of finding snakes and reptiles is illegal, much less even picking up a toad or salamander, or posing it for a picture. Yep, technically, herping is illegal on all public lands in Maryland.

But you know what, I don’t think anyone needs to split those hairs. I think it’s great that there’s another user group out there enjoying the outdoors instead of rotting away in front of a TV somewhere (well, perhaps excepting when folks come busting through under my tree stand, that does kind of annoy me sometimes ) but hey, it is what it is. Public Land. As long as they don’t start banging those pots and pans together again and walking around under my tree singing, I guess I`ll just have to deal with it.

That’s kind of why I started Camochair Productions.com, to tweak interest in outdoor activity for those who may not have been exposed as children. I mean, the motto of the page is sharing the outdoors.

Getting out there to experience it is one of the best ways to foster respect for the environment, and hopefully get others involved in hunting and fishing. This goes a long way towards reducing reliance on environmentally damaging food production of meat and vegetation. We all know habitat loss in the number one threat to wildlife, and mass agriculture is the chief culprit.

So, in the end, I really don’t have a problem with a kid catching a frog or turtle down at the local park. Used to be that was a favorite pass time for kids, not so much anymore.

But to take that to the extreme it was taken to the other day, and actively harass people using the woodlands of Maryland, when your out there in violation yourself is ludicrous and unacceptable.

Oh, and ugh, as far as that trash goes, why not help out in your travels. That way, I wont have to organize another volunteer public land clean up with DNR like I did a few years ago. We hauled 12 pick-up truck loads and 3 dumpsters full of trash off McKees that year. I’m pretty sure all the old tires, landscape debris refrigerators and household trash we found wasn’t dumped by hunters. I will admit there are some slobs out there judging by some of the content, but I’ll bet most of those beer cans and fire rings in the woods are from the same young punks spray painting those trees along the road back in there with gang signs.

Kind of glad that caught on. MBS chapters are still out there every spring on various public hunting areas around the State pulling out truckloads and dumpsters full of debris. So why not carry a bag with you like we do and tote some of that out of those back areas off the beaten path while your there, instead of just whining about it.

Get out there and have some fun folks. I promise I wont jump in your face, or turn you in for holding a salamander or even posing a rattler for a picture.
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slowbow
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by slowbow »

Oh,BenIsAlive,

ugh didn`t know me from Adam when he approached me standing there with my camera and challenged me,I could have been taking a scenery picture for all he knew.Michael wasn`t really visible either. He didn`t realize it was in fact Michael until he made his way down the hill, after he had insisted I stop what I was doing.

Theres no way he could have made any connection between me, anything, or anyone on this forum, unless he had been stalking and purposely targeted us that day.

Now theres a disturbing thought for you.
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BenIsAlive
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by BenIsAlive »

snakeman1986 wrote:BenIsAlive, that is a good point you bring up. These fellows have proved that they do not respond to civil criticism. They will come up with some sort of reasoning to justify their actions.
So if civil criticism doesn't work should I go strait to name calling?? I dont remember making that point.
heavenscloud
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by heavenscloud »

Since MARA is being conducted under DNR, perhaps this might provide an overview of what you can and can't do in the field. Specifically, "Land Access and Legal Issues" and "Atlasing Ethics" might be good places to look. ;) :roll:
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

BenIsAlive wrote:
snakeman1986 wrote:BenIsAlive, that is a good point you bring up. These fellows have proved that they do not respond to civil criticism. They will come up with some sort of reasoning to justify their actions.
So if civil criticism doesn't work should I go strait to name calling?? I dont remember making that point.
If certain people haven’t gotten it by now then just let I go no point. Motions have been set in place. Mistakes were made, corrected one way or another. Further going actives most likely will change by many viewing and posting in this. Again there wasn’t much civil about they way we were attacked the redneck comments the trashing of our posts. The needless judging. O by the way ugh(Justin) said I could have questioned him on the day in the woods or he could have said something to me by the time I met up with my family all I heard from him was I recognize you from the forum your holding a king snake right. I said probably or something along the lines then he said I think I saw you here last week leaving in a white car. Then I replied no that wasn’t me. Then we went on our way I had no idea that a argument occurred and after I heard about it I wasn’t going to march down after him and yell at him that is harassment. I said nothing of the sort until he started with the blatantly uncivil comments on our post. Then this all started so believe what you must and take what you want. I have seen people defend him he is a good guy, he has great points. Yes that may be true his points are valid I’m not and have never argued that I was frustrated and demeaned by the way he made his points. If you want somebody to listen to you the best course of action is to not attack them. That has been my point all along.
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

Just so everybody is clear this is a copy and past from the above attached article. thank you for posting this. saves every body alot of trouble.


Atlasing Ethics
Proper handling of amphibians and reptiles
Care and discretion should be used when handling amphibians and reptiles. Only handle an
animal if it is needed to make a positive identification and is safe to do so. Remember that
handling can cause stress, injury, and even mortality to amphibians and reptiles.
Please abide by these general procedures:
 When possible, try to photograph the animal in the field with the least amount of
handling possible.
 Photodocumentation procedures and tips are provided in the handbook.
 Do not handle dangerous herpetofauna (e.g., snapping turtles, large or venomous snakes).
 A net, snake hook, sizeable stick, or similar tools can be used to facilitate capture.
 Always use wet hands that are free of lotions, chemicals, etc. to handle amphibians.
 Use a clear plastic bag or other container to aid in viewing herpetofauna and taking
photographs, particularly for larval and early life stages.
 Clasp small individuals within both hands.
 Hold large frogs at the pelvis with legs fully extended to prevent injury and fractures.
 This restraint technique should prevent the frog or toad from kicking and twisting.
 Apply only gentle pressure/resistance – take care not to squeeze too hard.
 Do not grab salamanders or lizards by the tail.
 Although the tail can be regenerated, tail autotomy creates potential for infection and
loss of an important fat reserve.
 Support snakes at multiple points along the body.
 Gentle pressure can be applied behind the head of the snake to reduce the potential
for a bite.
 Do not handle an agitated snake.
 When capturing a snake is necessary, place in a pillowcase to reduce stress to the animal.
 Lift or roll cover objects towards your body.
 If the cover object is particularly heavy, make sure herps are clear from underneath
before returning the cover object to its original position.
 If a herp was removed, return it so that it is oriented facing the cover object so that it
may return on its own.
 Amphibian eggs should not be handled unless it is absolutely necessary to obtain a
picture.
 If that is the case, simply place hands gently under the eggs mass and keep them
suspended in water.
 Return egg mass exactly as it was encountered.
 Using an umbrella or other method of shading is recommended to reduce glare on the
eggs when capturing a photograph.
 Do not disturb reptile nests or hibernacula.

And I quote “A net, snake hook, sizeable stick, or similar tools can be used to facilitate capture” this says to me that snake tongs would be acceptable. I understand I shouldn’t use them as I don’t much anymore iv said that before so before you jump down my throat once again try and understand where I am coming from. And I always let the snakes go if I even touch them at all.
Lance Benedict
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Lance Benedict »

So were you having trouble identifying it as a rattlesnake? You must be retarded.
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Peter84Jenkins
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Peter84Jenkins »

Lance Benedict wrote:So were you having trouble identifying it as a rattlesnake? You must be retarded.
That sort of ad hominem attack is truly unnecessary. Oh, and only six posts to your name, and that is how you chose to join in on a discussion/debate?
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Lance Benedict »

My point was not ad hominem. Read the first paragraph of what he quoted. I am on the MARA Steering Committee by the way.
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VanAR
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by VanAR »

So were you having trouble identifying it as a rattlesnake? You must be retarded.
I am on the MARA Steering Committee by the way.
If that's the case, you might want to revise the legal section of that document. The last paragraph on page 9 states:
Generally, a permit is not needed to look for, pick up, hold, photograph, etc. any native Maryland
herpetofauna as long as it is immediately released where captured.
And, a sentence on page 10 states:
Under no circumstances should live or deceased individuals or remains of the following (List C fauna) be removed from the location where found or retained (Table 1).
...where table 1 refers to the MD protected species (including C. horridus).

Both of those sentences suggest that you can legally do darn near whatever to a timber as long as you return it to the place where it is found. I realize other sections of the document advise readers to NOT needlessly disturb the animals, but if it is such a big deal, why even suggest that handling is ok in other sections? Seems that it would be prudent to be more specific in the restrictions regarding protected species, especially since enforcement of the actual law is likely to be more strict (ie, if a LEO saw someone handling a protected species for any reason, that person would likely get cited even if they were going to release the animal).
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MassHorridus
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by MassHorridus »

It pains me to say it, but UGH has accomplished his goal. That family clan will be more mindful in the field and even the casual observer to this post-a-thon will stop and think twice about the welfare of the animal when in their presence. I’ve gotta tip my cap to results… We should all remember this debate in our next interactions out there... fellow herpers, the law, and the snakes all have their sensitivities that deserve our consideration. Now, can somebody post coordinates to that Central MA densite?
- Justin (the nice one)
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spinifer
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by spinifer »

If that's the case, you might want to revise the legal section of that document. The last paragraph on page 9 states:
Van the Herp Atlas documents covers its basis, if you read it all the way through rather than select paragraphs, you will see this is not exactly the case.
Both of those sentences suggest that you can legally do darn near whatever to a timber as long as you return it to the place where it is found.
This is true, if they 1.) were on private property or 2.) had discussed their intentions with the land manager and received permission.

From page 9..
Surveying on public lands (such as those owned by the Maryland Department of Natural
Resources or County parkland) requires that you obey posted property rules (e.g., park hours,
parking and access restrictions) as well as those set forth by the land manager. The Maryland
Department of Natural Resources will announce the project to park and state land managers, but
it is the responsibility of the fieldworker to make contact with the individual land manager and
discuss any intentions.
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incuhead2000
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

Sounds like someone needs to create a "pursue reptiles and amphibians" permit and a handbook needs to be given out just like it is to hunters and fishermen using public lands. Either that or we can charge people to read this thread, test them on it then give them a piece of paper saying they graduated and send them on their way!
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by will lattea »

I'm just gona throw this out there for what it's worth. These sites are very well known. Folks have been studying many of them since the 60's. Biologists, DNR/ USFWS (current and retired) frequent these forums and are friends with many of the forum participants. This topic has over 130 replies and over 1,200 views – bet on the gossip and pics of someone tubing a gravid female (why!?) on public property making the rounds.

When the above mentioned go to these sites they don't bring hooks- if you pulled a set of tongs out of your trunk I’m sure you’d be advised not to bring them. They walk through an area once, record observations, take in-situ photos when possible, and move on. If you were to come out with any of them and start messing with a snake you would surely not be invited back. There are also some DNR (that are also herpers) that will follow you if they see you with a hook and if you use it they'll cite you for harassment.

My favorite part about observing horridus is that one can do so with such little intervention. Very few snakes make themselves so obvious with their daily habits. As I've spent time with them I've realized that most of that behavior is the result of an incredibly evolved existence. When they all come out in piles and try to bask in the spring it's because they've just spent 7 months underground without food or warmth (you wana be the one to scare them back under the rocks?). From there a gravid female may go the rest of the year without food in order to spend all her energy cooking up babies in time for fall. It's such a feat that she'll be lucky to pull it off a couple times throughout her entire life- if even once (grab her! Dangle her by the tail and get her head in the tube for some reason!). When the neonates come out and bask in piles it's because they need to shed before hibernation so they don't die (most will die anyway! Catch ‘em!). They literally sit out where they can easily be observed and photographed from a distance- unlike most other snake species- just so they can survive. Just observe that without f*cking with them! (pretty please)

Horridus are still in rapid decline throughout their range on private property and most of all we have left are these island populations which are protected by the regulations of public land- that is quite literally what has saved this species (in MD especially). If you want to argue that it’s sustainable to still treat them as some type of game species, despite how well that has always worked in the past, well… I guess that’s an opinion one may have (probably based on a lack of reading). It’s bad enough 99% of people just want to come right out and kill these things for no reason. Half of the remaining 1% play with them to death.

Happy herping everyone!

-Will
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brick911
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

incuhead2000 wrote:Sounds like someone needs to create a "pursue reptiles and amphibians" permit and a handbook needs to be given out just like it is to hunters and fishermen using public lands. Either that or we can charge people to read this thread, test them on it then give them a piece of paper saying they graduated and send them on their way!
I think this has been talked about in other states as far as a "herp-stamp." I would certainly buy one. I purchased a venomous snake permit from PA just because... with obviously no intention of killing or collecting (even though a pet timber would be awesome!). However, it did allow me to legally collect that DOR I found, so all's well that ends well.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

MassHorridus wrote:It pains me to say it, but UGH has accomplished his goal. That family clan will be more mindful in the field and even the casual observer to this post-a-thon will stop and think twice about the welfare of the animal when in their presence. I’ve gotta tip my cap to results… We should all remember this debate in our next interactions out there... fellow herpers, the law, and the snakes all have their sensitivities that deserve our consideration. Now, can somebody post coordinates to that Central MA densite?
- Justin (the nice one)
Agreed. There is a method to the madness, I must say. He is a martyr for herp-etiquette.
ugh

Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by ugh »

Lance Benedict wrote:So were you having trouble identifying it as a rattlesnake? You must be retarded.

Classic ,Lol.....

Will L. rocks....well said and factual, thanks.

Brick I'd have to look up 'martyr for ettiquette' but I liked it better when you called me a parasite :beer: :lol:

And they may not be all about self-promotion(some/most preferring to fly under the radar, as I've said countless times before) but as Brick alluded to earlier- trust me some 'TR gods'(of our generation at least) have indeed weighed in here on this crazy thread and I'm glad,the herp community here being that much better for it.

Image
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brick911
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

Credit where its due, ya know. Parasites are blood suckers, but I guess they serve some kind of purpose even if nobody likes them.
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pete
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by pete »

well justin, along with martyrdom comes 76 virgins. so it might not be a bad thing after all :lol: :lol:
ugh

Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by ugh »

HEY-OOOOHHH!
Lol virgins4pete
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

Can I just say wow?

Can we please put an end to this and just all agree that if you see someone you think is doing something wrong don't just jump to conclusions-- pm them and have a civil discussion with them to get all the facts first? That way we don't have heated arguments where people don't read the posted thread fully and just jump to the next insult. We are all adults here.

And believe me we have all read this post very carefully and will continue to learn and keep improving on our methods. Matt isn't as well versed as Michael when he gets upset about something he's passionate about and a little more blunt so please don't dismiss him as a uneducated little punk. He's been saying the same thing all along and wants the best for the snakes. Not an end to Justin (or anyone else), just a more civil way of disscussion. We're all willing to change if we've done something wrong. We just want to be bullied and harrassed.

A quick suggestion for all the haters (whichever side you find yourself on in the future), please read the posts fully before you react because I read A LOT of responses (both sides) that had missed the the point of the posts completely.

I enjoyed reading the actual laws and guidelines because I'm always trying to learn new things. Can I just say I love you old pros and what you have to teach? :mrgreen:
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

[quote="Siobhan"]Can I just say wow?


We just want to be bullied and harrassed.

quote]


ha ha, I mean DON'T want to bullied and harrassed. Please no more!!!! :lol:
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kyle loucks
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kyle loucks »

Siobhan wrote: Can I just say I love you old pros and what you have to teach? :mrgreen:
Hey whippersnapper, is this sarcasm?
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

Not at all. That was me being a brown nose
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vincemartino
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by vincemartino »

Darn kids these days got it easy.... I remember when I was a kid, I had to walk 15 miles uphill in snow and rain every day just to GET TO my favorite Timber spot, and THEN 15 miles uphill to get back. :D
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

vincemartino wrote:Darn kids these days got it easy.... I remember when I was a kid, I had to walk 15 miles uphill in snow and rain every day just to GET TO my favorite Timber spot, and THEN 15 miles uphill to get back. :D
:lol:
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