Timber Rattlesnake with babies

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incuhead2000
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Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

So today I visited a spot I have never seen rattlers at before and was in for a treat. kirbyl4 and I found several rattlers and one already had a few babies! I kept my distance and all the snakes were qucik to flee, sorry about the "cloverfield/blairwitch" filming, I was excitied about this find. Here is the link



-Mike
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withalligators
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by withalligators »

It's a ggod thing you didn't go with us today, and a bad thing we didn't go with you!
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snakegirl24
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by snakegirl24 »

ooooo! Im jealous!! Sooo adorable!
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incuhead2000
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

withalligators wrote:It's a ggod thing you didn't go with us today, and a bad thing we didn't go with you!
Hope to meet up next time, you inspired me to check a spot I had been wanting to scope out and didn't know what to expect and just got lucky! If you go out Wednesday hope you find some critters out there!
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brick911
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

That's so cool. Good for you.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Mike VanValen »

Brace for impact.
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KingCam
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by KingCam »

Mike VanValen wrote:Brace for impact.
lmao... exactly what I was thinking. :lol:

Really cool find, thanks for sharing the video :beer:
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brick911
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

Mike VanValen wrote:Brace for impact.
:lol:
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bwaterherper
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by bwaterherper »

Mike VanValen wrote:Brace for impact.
:lol: :lol:
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spinifer
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by spinifer »

Mike VanValen wrote:Brace for impact.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
heavenscloud
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by heavenscloud »

Mike VanValen wrote:Brace for impact.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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vincemartino
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by vincemartino »

Congrats on the find! Awesome stuff.
ugh

Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by ugh »

There you go..... 8-)

Of course, we can only go by what's on camera-but no tongs,no handling,no locality revealed, no other unnecessary details-a brief and informative observation. Probably a little close but hey these guys are admittedly new to the game. When the snake shows itself as stressed,the guys back off, wrap it up and move on; Everybody goes home happy.Hopefully the next visit will be kept on ice for a while-say,next year- considering the recent outbreak of new interest in these animals, it's a pretty sure thing more herpers come to check her out. Fingers crossed they embrace the less-is-more/hands-off method of observation....Seems IF someone gets it, it happens in their own time.

I don't know who they plan on showing this video to-but guys I'd get used to being asked 'where was this'? Just come up with a good general answer,like 'the mountains' or something, practice using a white lie in this case, whatever. It's among the most important thing you can get down pat because as long as you showcase stuff like this,that's among the first thing anyone will ask,it's just a knee-jerk response. I'm talking about other herpers, and non-herper regular folk alike. Ironically perhaps,the former in particular because that's who'd be most inclined to seek them out for a visit of their own. These snakes are providing you with amazing first-hand experience that most folks never see outside of tv so I think you'd agree we owe them their privacy being kept as intact as possible and as mentioned above people just don't need to know that type of sensitive info.

And yeah I had to laugh at the brace for impact line
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kyle loucks
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kyle loucks »

Sound advice.
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incuhead2000
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

I suck at keeping secrets. If you wanna see some timber rattlers here are the gps coordinates already...

39º58’21.23”N 75º11’48.7W

I hear that there are two males that frequent the area...good luck
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KingCam
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by KingCam »

incuhead2000 wrote:I suck at keeping secrets. If you wanna see some timber rattlers here are the gps coordinates already...

39º58’21.23”N 75º11’48.7W

I hear that there are two males that frequent the area...good luck
:lol: :lol:
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

ugh wrote:There you go..... 8-)

Of course, we can only go by what's on camera-but no tongs,no handling,no locality revealed, no other unnecessary details-a brief and informative observation. Probably a little close but hey these guys are admittedly new to the game. When the snake shows itself as stressed,the guys back off, wrap it up and move on; Everybody goes home happy.Hopefully the next visit will be kept on ice for a while-say,next year- considering the recent outbreak of new interest in these animals, it's a pretty sure thing more herpers come to check her out. Fingers crossed they embrace the less-is-more/hands-off method of observation....Seems IF someone gets it, it happens in their own time.

I don't know who they plan on showing this video to-but guys I'd get used to being asked 'where was this'? Just come up with a good general answer,like 'the mountains' or something, practice using a white lie in this case, whatever. It's among the most important thing you can get down pat because as long as you showcase stuff like this,that's among the first thing anyone will ask,it's just a knee-jerk response. I'm talking about other herpers, and non-herper regular folk alike. Ironically perhaps,the former in particular because that's who'd be most inclined to seek them out for a visit of their own. These snakes are providing you with amazing first-hand experience that most folks never see outside of tv so I think you'd agree we owe them their privacy being kept as intact as possible and as mentioned above people just don't need to know that type of sensitive info.

And yeah I had to laugh at the brace for impact line

I've kept my mouth shut (which if you know me, is very unlike me) for most of these posts. But, this one I just can't. I truelly appreciate the advice but one thing I can't stand more than anything in the world (just ask matt) is being condescended. I understand your love for snakes and I appreciate your devotion, but do not talk to us like we're idiots. We share the love that you do and the last thing we want is for something to happen to them. So please stop talking to us like we're school children and that you have this godly right over everyone else in the world. You aren't a "snake king", so please get off your high horse and if you don't have anything helpful or something that is an actual real problem that you'd like to share I think we'd all appreciate you not saying anything. Believe me, if there is anything that we all do know 100% is that we're extremely lucky when it comes to finding things and put in a LOT of sweat and hard work. The last thing we'd want to do is share that with anyone. Michael and Matthew won't even share with they found the babies and I've been dating Matt for 8 years. Enough is enough.
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MassHorridus
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by MassHorridus »

HAHAHAHA Can I get permission to look for TR's ugh? Is it true they are poisonous?
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

ugh wrote:There you go..... 8-)

Of course, we can only go by what's on camera-but no tongs,no handling,no locality revealed, no other unnecessary details-a brief and informative observation. Probably a little close but hey these guys are admittedly new to the game. When the snake shows itself as stressed,the guys back off, wrap it up and move on; Everybody goes home happy.Hopefully the next visit will be kept on ice for a while-say,next year- considering the recent outbreak of new interest in these animals, it's a pretty sure thing more herpers come to check her out. Fingers crossed they embrace the less-is-more/hands-off method of observation....Seems IF someone gets it, it happens in their own time.

I don't know who they plan on showing this video to-but guys I'd get used to being asked 'where was this'? Just come up with a good general answer,like 'the mountains' or something, practice using a white lie in this case, whatever. It's among the most important thing you can get down pat because as long as you showcase stuff like this,that's among the first thing anyone will ask,it's just a knee-jerk response. I'm talking about other herpers, and non-herper regular folk alike. Ironically perhaps,the former in particular because that's who'd be most inclined to seek them out for a visit of their own. These snakes are providing you with amazing first-hand experience that most folks never see outside of tv so I think you'd agree we owe them their privacy being kept as intact as possible and as mentioned above people just don't need to know that type of sensitive info.

And yeah I had to laugh at the brace for impact line
Dude I have no idea what your problem is but you have no clue how long we have been doing this years for a fact sense we were kids for your information. I don’t care who you are a rattle snake is intimidating even if you have been around them for years. It is something that can kill you or mess up limbs and nerves. So yeah of course we are going to back off it is instinctive. We have come across many rattle snakes in our life time and as far as bothering them they always seem to still be there next time we go back even if it is only a week later, What a surprise huh. As long as the habitat stays and they aren’t getting killed they seem to stick around. I also never tell people where I find my findings I put a lot of hard work to find these amazing creatures and others and I don’t want some weird people who have no idea how to be around snakes or even a collector to go visit my spots. So before you open you mouth think before you rant on and on about something you have no idea about. As for you don’t know who we planned on showing the video to well I don’t know how blunt I can put this without sounding stupid. Its on the herp forum obviously we were showing other herpers duh. Also it dose send people looking in the home town of the person who post you should know that first hand sense we ran into you in one of our spots witch ironically you visited twice in two weeks so what happened to keeping you visits to a minimum. If you are so inclined to put every body down and then just be a hypocrite. Maybe herping isn’t for you it’s, a community of a love a devotion not a borderline animal rights community who tells everyone you cant do this and you cant do that. I’m sorry you are extremely jealous of what we find but we have done the research and the foot work and we know exactly what to look for so don’t tell us we are new to the game. The only post I have seen from you have been pretty much bashing and complaining if you cant handle it stay out of the woods.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

MassHorridus wrote:HAHAHAHA Can I get permission to look for TR's ugh? Is it true they are poisonous?
hahahaha NICE :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Knightkrawler5
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Knightkrawler5 »

Very well put....seems like everyone these days feel like someone who just joined the forum is new to herping in general :crazyeyes:
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Knightkrawler5 »

Just seems like too many people are trying to be the experts...the best experts are the ones that post the most comments..... :lol:
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pete
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by pete »

I likes to find me some rattlers. then i likes to hook em up an git em bitin at the camera. then i likes to tell everbody on youtube how dangrous they is. then i likes to tell em all that i gots balls big as church bells on account of i aint afeared at all. but i got respect for thisn beeutifull critter. thats why i make these here videos, fer the educational value. :roll: :roll:

It is an awesome thing to go herping,it is an awesome thing to be outside in general. it is really awesome to have a digital camera and not buy film. it is fun to share those pics with people online. hell, i'm not sure i have a point here but i got irritated reading this thread for some reason. i've learned a lot of things from a lot of people over the years,some older than me,some younger. the important thing is that i'm always willing to learn.(with the exception of the shift key)
ugh

Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by ugh »

Ok I've had enough with this newbies rattler clan-incuhead,kirby, siobhan, whoever else in your click,etc... I was trying to be polite and not publicize the fact I found you and your clan at a densite the other day. Oh yeah and that your dad let slip that you guys('kirby' here,aka matt;mike,aka 'incuhead200',and that verry sweet girl,didn't catch her name!) typically tong any snakes you see, and also claimed you guys will pull the snakes out of their crevices to get them to strike for his video camera,etc. etc....As far as the part that he mentioned of getting a PA permit to kill one,I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was just talking sh!t like a proud poppa redneck or something.I don't know I guess it was what he calls humor? Hell for all I know he was serious.

Needless to say I wasn't going to sit there and let you guys tong out a snake while I was there. Ad I said,those snakes are as much mine as they are yours. So yes as you heard I told your pops that to his face(politely 8-) ) but that just wasn't what he wanted to hear. Eventually you guys left without finding any snakes anyway. I also didn't mention that this was a last resort of mine,putting my foot down to you guys n your pops like that to keep the snakes from being harassed. But as you or your brother incuhead2000 also heard there that day, I had tried the nice guy approach but to no avail.

I did find it funny though that mike(incuhead) not only knew who I was from this forum, but he also tried telling me you guys were' 'strictly hands off man' while not knowing his dad had already told me otherwise-and that you guys in fact were well prepared with your tongs lest any timbers didn't totally cooperate with being f@cked with for the sake of your video,to be posted on his website. Heck he was so proud he'd given me a business card upon meeting me! I check it out,and ehat's the first guy i see,matt aka kirby posin cool for the camera with a nice juvie TR, shocker-at the very same den I ran into you guys the other day. Nice.

So if I run into any of you or your neighborhood newbies at a densite again, hopefully it will go a little smoother. But maybe not. And yes I'll be prepared to look out for the snakes' best interest again. I find it pathetic that more folks here can't appreciate that, though I know many her do get that even if they don't come out and endorse my actions in this case. This kind of-what's the word, dedication?- only comes with time and committment. A newcomer or misunderstanding casual observer sees it as me being arrogant or egotistical,on my high horse or whatever. That's fine,I know in time they may get it eventually also. If not,I'm fine with that too. But there was just one too many pokes at me here,very strange considering that you knew what I was aware of from our meeting the other day, and I thought I had taken the high road pretty well up to now. I have informed some locals that I know frequent the same sites you guys go to, hence my remark of there being 'eyes and ears everywhere' if you didn't see that posted here the other day.

As well as the fact that you guys bragged to my face, of handling a snake in a local park,where of course that's completely illegal. No I hadn't yet informed the proper authorites about you guys and your clan but I will now.I almost forgot about that one, thanks for pissing me off and joging my memory. :thumb:

**Moderators,I ask that you refrain from getting antsy with deleting this post or thresad as it's taken a somewhat unseemly turn-but I feel some of this stuff is perhaps good for other members to be aware of if folks are gonna be all trying to buddy up here with one another. Always good to know a little background on your fellow members,you know?
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incuhead2000
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by incuhead2000 »

If you want the rattlers left alone I think you should follow your own advice and leave them alone. The next person you go up to in the woods and tell them what they can and can't do and what you won't let them do might not be as civil as we are. There are a lot of crazy people out there and I've run into some serious weirdos in the woods. Just so you are fully aware you can contact whatever "authorities" you like but I have broken no laws, it is not illegal to touch things, let alone even kill them with the proper permits. When it comes to hunting I go by the book and we aren't just some rednecks, I am actually REALLY offended that you would even use that term, it's degrading to someone like myself who takes pride in going by the book. We left because you were following us around and that was really unappreciated, your input was valued but if you want to go keep making assumptions and telling people what they can and can't do, perhaps you should go to a rattlesnake roundup out west and protest if you have such problems with people touching them. Thanks for being dedicated to protecting these snakes, I will give you that. No thank you for harassing us because that dude, is illegal.
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

incuhead2000 wrote: We left because you were following us around and that was really unappreciated, your input was valued but if you want to go keep making assumptions and telling people what they can and can't do, perhaps you should go to a rattlesnake roundup out west and protest if you have such problems with people touching them. Thanks for being dedicated to protecting these snakes, I will give you that. No thank you for harassing us because that dude, is illegal.
Justin did that already, he paid his way and went and tried to educate people at the roundup. I heard this story as I'm friends with Justin, guys for the love of God just work together. Justin has been going to dens for a while and has worked with one of the top rattlesnake guys in the country, he wasn't being condescending, he just knows what turns a sight into shit and its tonging snakes. And I don't think he is afraid of who he runs into, like I said he has been going to these dens forever and this is the first time this has happened to him. To this herping group put yourself in Justin's shoes. Justin knows this area like the back of his hand, he has worked with local folks on getting buffer zones changed to help better protect the species, that is action that helps the species. When he sees folks videotaping snakes getting tonged that are gravid how do you expect him to react.

Siohban, remember folks hook snakes, tong snakes etc. Sometimes people have to reinforce things that shouldn't be done when there is evidence to support that the activity is going on. Justin had evidence, he wasn't saying it to you directly just generally, what is wrong with that. If Kyle or someone else had said this would the reaction be the same?
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

x
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

xx
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vincemartino
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by vincemartino »

oh my
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

First off I am always ready to snake tong a venomous snakes. I know where they are living and if I come across one on a trail I’m going to move it off. I see so many post’s that people kill these snakes just because they were sitting out on the trail minding their own business. So yeah I’m going to tong them and move them of trail. Again as I said before don’t open your mouth unless you know what and who you are talking to. I almost never tong a snake out from under rocks if it isn’t in the way of someone else walking up on them. If I see someone out in the area I will try and scare it under cover so someone doesn’t find it. Maybe for collection or just a strange stumble across and actually cause the snake harm and kill it. A bit of stress is better than a dead snake in my opinion. Again if you are so inclined to calling us newbie’s so be it, at least we aren’t trying to push our views and opinions on other people that love the same thing just view it differently. I’m pretty sure that’s what youth camps our for. If you want to contact authorities go for it, id love to hear what they have to say because as my brother said before we have done nothing wrong. I’m pretty sure that moving a protected snake away from a trail isn’t frowned upon. As for we were back off trail looking for them yes we were but then again so were you. So if we were doing something illegal then I guess you were also. As for what my dad said that’s great he obviously doesn’t like you and from what it seems not to many people do. I’m not trying to be mean or anything but if you are going to bash and critic people who you have no clue who or how they act then just keep it to yourself. Didn’t you learn that if you don’t have anything nice to say then don’t say anything at all. I work extremely hard to find the things I love so great I’m a newbie I must be right, I didn’t realize 24 years of sweat, blood and exhausting hard work made someone a newbie but hey what do I know you are obviously the expert so I ask you please will you take me out on a herping adventure so I can at least learn the ropes because finding almost every kind of snake in Maryland isn’t enough for me.
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Ridge Walker
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Ridge Walker »

kirbyl4 wrote:First off I am always ready to snake tong a venomous snakes. I know where they are living and if I come across one on a trail I’m going to move it off.
How about just scooting it off with a stick?
kirbyl4 wrote: I almost never tong a snake out from under rocks if it isn’t in the way of someone else walking up on them.
What reason is there to tong one out at all?
kirbyl4 wrote:I’m pretty sure that moving a protected snake away from a trail isn’t frowned upon.
I'm pretty sure that it is if you're tonging them.

I don't want to come off as an elitist douche, but maybe give in situ, hands off photography a try. The snakes will appreciate it, and I personally think in situ photos are way cooler than shots of posed, pissed off and buzzing rattlers. 8-)

RW
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

I don’t necessarily tong them as trying to move them along with the tongs first but as anybody who goes out knows that a snake that doesn’t want to move will stand its ground. So sometimes having to pick them up and move them just enough so they get the idea and move off by themselves. If the snake in half under the rocks along a trail it is better to move them along somtimes. I have seen people messing with snakes under rocks just along trails. I mean not just taking pics but actually poking at and throwing rocks at so moving them out to safety is better then leaving it in cases. I also don’t move them off trail so I can take pics I would take pics before moving them if I think they could be in danger I have seen way to many posts of people killing snakes because they think the snakes was chasing them down.
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

Again, you don't know anything about us, so why you're jumping to conclusions is beyond me. Sure I'm a newcomer to the game but everything I learn has been in the last 8 years from Matt and his family and they have been involved their whole life. So I stand by my high horse comment because that's exactly what you're doing. You think you know more than everyone else and need go vigilante on the herpers. Its ridiculous. I never would of imagined there was a site dedicated to herping. When Michael told me about it I joined this site because no one I know besides Matt and his family share the love of reptiles, NOT to be harrassed. I wanted to connect with people on something I'm passionate about and learn everything I could, not be condescended for being a newcomer. I thought I could meet nice people that share the love and share photos and stories, not egotistical jerks that think they have the right to bully everyone on the forum.

Its exciting to find rattlesnakes but you make us out to be rattlesnakes collectors that only target them. But, in reality the only reason we've been posting so much rattlesnake pictures recently is because that's all we've been finding. Matt and I herped almost everyday last week and that's the only thing we found. We are the "Rattlesnake Targeters Clan." Nor do we have secret rattlesnake handshakes or matching jackets. We just enjoy herping and study maps and habitats to find things. To be honest with you I'd MUCH rather find a hognose or a rainbow snake than even a rattlesnake.

Not only that, thousands of hunters, deer, and bears travel through the same woods we herp and yet we still keep coming across rattlesnakes just hanging out on rocks. Never have I seen anyone tong a snake out of a rock. The most that's happen as Kirby said, is getting them out of the way so no one harms it. These guys care more than anyone I've met about the safety of these animals, and not just rattlesnakes. All reptiles and amphibians. Again, stop picking fights with people on the internet just because you have nothing better to do. Now that's pathetic.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Mike VanValen »

Just my two cents worth here.

For those of you new to the forum and new to herping. There are going to be people you disagree with and there are going to be people who get under your skin. I see a few of you "fighting to the death" because someone criticized your field report or the way you interact with timber rattlesnakes.

I suggest you develop a thick skin because in the grand scheme of things, ughs responses are small change. He has the right to voice his opinion just as you have the right to post your herping adventures. When you post on a public forum you open yourself to all kinds of reaction. That's just the way it is and we all have to deal with it.

You all are scrambling to defend your actions in the field with these snakes. I suggest you step back from it all and look at what you can learn from this experience. Because let me tell you, Ugh is absolutely right about tonging rattlers and moving them around to take pictures. Regardless of the reasons you have for tonging or hooking a snake it does stress the snakes and as time goes on I personally hope you realize that getting that strike or pretty picture isn't worth it.

I wont pass judgment because we have all made mistakes in the field, whether you have been doing this for 20 years or 20 days.

Please see the message between the rough lines in Ughs responses.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by heavenscloud »

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Mike VanValen
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Mike VanValen »

What I'm trying to say is that, despite what you think the moderators should do, moving on and ignoring comments you don't like is probably the best approach. I realize that ignoring it isn't for everyone.
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

I have never had a problem with anybodies responses I just ignore them if they affect me. The thing is while me and my family were out in the field he came up to us on public land and told us we basically aren’t allowed to touch anything in the forest. We had to leave he wasn’t going to let us do anything and followed my brother and dad down the trial. Now a lot of people even law enforcement probable would consider that harassment, as I have a few friends in law enforcement and would say the same thing. I really don’t care what people say I have dealt with that my whole life as being interested in wildlife especially snakes makes a lot of people question you anyways. As I do agree he has the right to voice his opinion but if its being done in a harassing manor then there is a problem. Imagine yourself in the field looking for someone on public land not even a state park just public hunting land herping and someone comes up to you and tells you he isn’t going to let you touch anything and then follows you around. I would have no problem ignoring him I did before but after we ran into him in the field he has commented on all our post about rattle snakes and rattle snakes alone I might add and has been bashing us and basically calling us stupid in so many words.
dragoncjo
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

Seems like it is illegal to tong or hook a TR. Some F&G officers would view that as possession, which is illegal for the species mentioned, if below is accurate. Not saying anyone is doing that, but just a heads up as my interpretation of the below link is that is would be illegal. I very much doubt the state wants folks handling a venomous snakes on public land even if on a trail.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/Pla ... snakes.asp
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kirbyl4
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by kirbyl4 »

dragoncjo wrote:Seems like it is illegal to tong or hook a TR. Some F&G officers would view that as possession, which is illegal for the species mentioned, if below is accurate. Not saying anyone is doing that, but just a heads up as my interpretation of the below link is that is would be illegal. I very much doubt the state wants folks handling a venomous snakes on public land even if on a trail.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/Pla ... snakes.asp
I have read that article many times and it says nothing about being illegal to tong a snake or hook one unless basically deemed that you have intentions to collect or kill. That would be up to the judgment of the officer on premises at the time. Considering what equipment was with you of course. Think of that one road I’m not sure where it is I think its called like snake road. They close it every year for snakes and turtles and such. Officers patrol that area all the time. Making sure people aren’t going out there to collect but yes people do go out there with tongs and hooks to herp and get photos of snakes. As long as you aren’t collecting and killing or have those intentions you aren’t breaking any laws. Again I guess it would be up to the officers judgment. So if you do go out make sure you don’t have anything that would be collecting materials with you as I have been stopped by the DNR before with my tongs in hand.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

I'm not sure I agree with you Matt, but we are entitled to our opinions and interpretation of the law. Here are the actual laws,

§ 10-2A-05. Review of lists; prohibited conduct

(a) Except with respect to species of wildlife or plants determined to be endangered or threatened pursuant to the Endangered Species Act, [FN1] the Secretary, upon the petition of an interested person, shall conduct a review of any listed or unlisted species proposed to be removed from or added to the lists published pursuant to § 10-2A-04(f) of this subtitle, if the Secretary publishes public notice that the person has presented substantial evidence which warrants a review.
(b) When any species of wildlife or plant is listed as a threatened species pursuant to § 10-2A-04(f) of this subtitle, the Secretary shall adopt regulations necessary and advisable to provide for the conservation of the species. The Secretary, by regulations, may prohibit with respect to any threatened species of wildlife or plant any act prohibited under subsection (c) of this section.
(c) Except as provided in subsection (f) of this section and § 10-2A-05.1 of this subtitle, with respect to any endangered species of wildlife, a person may not:
(1) Export the species from the State;
(2) Take the species within the State;
(3) Possess, process, sell or offer for sale, deliver, carry, transport, or ship the species by any means; or
(4) Violate any regulation pertaining to the conservation of the species or to any threatened species of wildlife listed pursuant to this subsection and adopted by the Secretary pursuant to authority provided by this section.
(d) Except as provided in subsection (f) of this section, with respect to any endangered species of plant, a person may not:
(1) Export the species from the State;
(2) Possess, process, sell, offer for sale, deliver, carry, transport, or ship the species by any means; or
(3) Violate any regulation pertaining to the species or to any threatened species of plant listed pursuant to § 10-2A-04(f) of this subtitle and adopted by the Secretary.
(e) Any endangered species of wildlife or plant which enters the State from another state or from a point outside the territorial limits of the United States and which is transported to a point within or beyond the State may enter and be transported without restriction in accordance with the terms of any federal permit or permit issued under the laws or regulations of another state.
(f) The Secretary may permit, under the terms and conditions he prescribes, any act otherwise prohibited by subsections (c) and (d) of this section for scientific purposes or to enhance the propagation or survival of the affected species.
CREDIT(S)
Acts 1975, c. 127, § 2; Acts 1990, c. 6, § 2. Amended by Acts 2005, c. 406, § 1, eff. Oct. 1, 2005.
[FN1] 16 U.S.C.A. § 1531 et seq.

According to D2 you may not possess a timber rattlesnake. The word possession can be a gray area. But if I'm a conservation officer and I roll up on a group of folks with hooks and tongs and a snake on a hook I'm fairly confident of some sort of possession occurring. While I don't see anything about harrassing an animal that could be unlawful as well.

If a snake is on a trail and you remove it off the trail that could be consider possession.

I find it hard to believe that folks who don't intend on handling snakes will carry tongs. I think the majority of officers would find that hard to believe as well, as you said.

What happens on snake road doesn't apply in MD. Different state, different rules/laws.

Also one thing to really focus on is what someones interpretation of harassment is(on the animal, not people) and whether it is unlawful. I would consider getting too close(within 6 feet) to an endangered species as harrassment. Think of it it terms of a bald eagle, if you have a nest on your property you are restricted in the mowing you can do around the nest. While you wouldn't be possessing a bald eagle, you would be harrassing one.

I'm not breaking stones here just trying to make sure the laws are known, because what one does affects everyone......unfortunately.
ugh

Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by ugh »

Thanks Chris for posting that. Right now I'm in correspondence with the MD DNR and other gov't bodies on this issue;more soon. Don't have the time to respond to all that's been said here for now but I have to say the Kirbys' arrogance re:their being within their rights is considerable....

And of course the legal aspect of all this doesn't concern the snakes one bit. While it's important and very relevant it's actually secondary to my original point.....
ugh

Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by ugh »

kirbyl4 wrote:I have read that article many times and it says nothing about being illegal to tong a snake or hook one unless basically deemed that you have intentions to collect or kill. That would be up to the judgment of the officer on premises at the time. Considering what equipment was with you of course. Think of that one road I’m not sure where it is I think its called like snake road. They close it every year for snakes and turtles and such. Officers patrol that area all the time. Making sure people aren’t going out there to collect but yes people do go out there with tongs and hooks to herp and get photos of snakes. As long as you aren’t collecting and killing or have those intentions you aren’t breaking any laws. Again I guess it would be up to the officers judgment. So if you do go out make sure you don’t have anything that would be collecting materials with you as I have been stopped by the DNR before with my tongs in hand.

Wtf tongs are not allowed at snake road.Even hooks are not......you guys are a trip
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

dragoncjo wrote: I would consider getting too close(within 6 feet) to an endangered species as harrassment.
Would tracking timber's or pines be considered harrassment? People who have that privilege are probably working within the law. But like ugh said,
And of course the legal aspect of all this doesn't concern the snakes one bit.
So is this where the line is drawn? ...Between professional and citizen scientist?

Don't get me wrong, if people are tonging snakes for the sole purpose of harassment or fun, I see that as unnecessary, detrimental, law-breaking, etc. But that's me NOW. Half a decade ago, I would hook a timber and make sure someone took my picture.

I don't hook timbers now, but I own a pair of tongs. And when legal I take them. I'll use them if I feel it necessary, but that's rare. I like them for grabbing wood piles and lifting and peaking in. That's probably harassment too. In fact, it all is. But this argument will go on and on...

I'm rambling and playing devil's advocate. I should just stay out. I guess my only point here is my first question about tracking snakes and how that's NOT considered harassment if being within 6 feet of one is.

...Respectfully.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by brick911 »

ugh wrote:
kirbyl4 wrote:I have read that article many times and it says nothing about being illegal to tong a snake or hook one unless basically deemed that you have intentions to collect or kill. That would be up to the judgment of the officer on premises at the time. Considering what equipment was with you of course. Think of that one road I’m not sure where it is I think its called like snake road. They close it every year for snakes and turtles and such. Officers patrol that area all the time. Making sure people aren’t going out there to collect but yes people do go out there with tongs and hooks to herp and get photos of snakes. As long as you aren’t collecting and killing or have those intentions you aren’t breaking any laws. Again I guess it would be up to the officers judgment. So if you do go out make sure you don’t have anything that would be collecting materials with you as I have been stopped by the DNR before with my tongs in hand.

Wtf tongs are not allowed at snake road.Even hooks are not......you guys are a trip
I'm not really commenting on what happened out in the field between ugh and incu, kirby, etc. But Ugh is correct here. No handling devices at Snake Road.
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

Look everyone is getting beyond the original point we were trying to make. It wasn't about who was right or wrong. Everyone has their own opinions and no one is going to change your mind. The point was the harrassment is getting out of control. We have means to contact the DNR too. But, it shouldn't come to that. To me, this was meant to be a place to come and meet people with similar interests since its a rare hobby. Its supposed to be a happy place where we swap stories. I'm tired of everyone arguing because of one jerk that has to bully everyone else and harass you on public land but still asks you to let him take pictures if they find anything. I usually don't pay any attention to people that are obnoxious on the internet because well, its the internet and there will always be those people. But, its gone beyond that and all of this needs to stop.
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Ridge Walker
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Ridge Walker »

Siobhan wrote:The point was the harrassment is getting out of control.
That's Ugh's point too.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

brick911 wrote:
dragoncjo wrote: I would consider getting too close(within 6 feet) to an endangered species as harrassment.
Would tracking timber's or pines be considered harrassment? People who have that privilege are probably working within the law. But like ugh said,
And of course the legal aspect of all this doesn't concern the snakes one bit.
So is this where the line is drawn? ...Between professional and citizen scientist?

Don't get me wrong, if people are tonging snakes for the sole purpose of harassment or fun, I see that as unnecessary, detrimental, law-breaking, etc. But that's me NOW. Half a decade ago, I would hook a timber and make sure someone took my picture.

I don't hook timbers now, but I own a pair of tongs. And when legal I take them. I'll use them if I feel it necessary, but that's rare. I like them for grabbing wood piles and lifting and peaking in. That's probably harassment too. In fact, it all is. But this argument will go on and on...

I'm rambling and playing devil's advocate. I should just stay out. I guess my only point here is my first question about tracking snakes and how that's NOT considered harassment if being within 6 feet of one is.

...Respectfully.
Nobody partaking in this thread is a 'professional' we are all in the same boat. I hate that argument between pro's(I guess you mean biologists) and ams and I'm not sure where it orginates with folks. Brick have you been mistreated by what you call 'pro's'?

As for your question, yes it would be and every person engaged in the activity that i've dealt with will tell you that and are cognizant of it and try to minimize it. Some big difference though between taking a photo and getting too close so you can just have a picture for your flickr page, fieldherpforum, etc. Tracking studies are done with some long term/short term benefit to the population or should be. Simple risk/reward, not rocket science. I've tracked timbers, the intent was to find new dens. New dens where the goal for multiple reasons, so habitat could be managed better around the den, so land could be purchased to protect the den, so trails and recreational use would be cut/created away from dens. So one snake was harrassed in some ways to help aid the entire population, in theory. There is risk/reward to every situation, you try to maximize the reward and minimize the risk. When the ratio is heavily in favor of reward it makes more sense. Hooking a gravid timber so you can make a youtube video has a poor ratio, where as hooking a gravid female because she might get killed by a landowner has a high ratio.....again not rocket science. Study permits are constantly rejected or accepted give risk/reward.

Also Bob about that 6 feet, that is my rule and my interpretation. I rarely get closer than 6 feet unless of course I flip it(I flip rarely). If you've been out with me and seen me get closer than that to a timber let me know, same with a pine snake, I don't touch them, what's the point? What benefit to the snake does that bring?
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

Siobhan wrote:Look everyone is getting beyond the original point we were trying to make. It wasn't about who was right or wrong. Everyone has their own opinions and no one is going to change your mind. The point was the harrassment is getting out of control. We have means to contact the DNR too. But, it shouldn't come to that. To me, this was meant to be a place to come and meet people with similar interests since its a rare hobby. Its supposed to be a happy place where we swap stories. I'm tired of everyone arguing because of one jerk that has to bully everyone else and harass you on public land but still asks you to let him take pictures if they find anything. I usually don't pay any attention to people that are obnoxious on the internet because well, its the internet and there will always be those people. But, its gone beyond that and all of this needs to stop.
Siobhan guess you haven't been following that long, hah, this is pg compared to some debates on here especially the main forum. I saw a young kid on there get ripped for about 2 months on there because of stuff he was doing in the field. Its just how we work through our differences here, this is par for the course. If people feel they have been harrassed that sucks, but sounds very liberalish to me. Lots of passion on here, lots of different opinions, lots of different ideas about what is right and wrong, its sort of a powder keg at times.

Hopefully middle ground can be found, whether we want to admit it or not. Intelligent people see other folks perspective as long as insults are left out and everything is done professionally.
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Siobhan
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by Siobhan »

I understand all that. I'm not that naïve =). I'm talking about approaching people in the woods harrassing them and telling us what can and can't be done. I know enough about the way people act on the internet to let it get under my skin. Its when it crosses that line that its not ok.
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Re: Timber Rattlesnake with babies

Post by dragoncjo »

I back Justin 100% if there was any attempt to hook a gravid female rattlesnake out of rock so it could be videotaped striking the camera, which I was told was the intention. I don't back harrassing people let me make that clear, but I absolutely back someone saying I'm not going to let you hook that rattlesnake after he asked not to politely. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. I've asked people that dozens of times and never had a hostile reaction. And the bottom line is it is more than likely illegal to hook one, so him saying not to is just him stating the law. I mean come on guys it isn't a right to hook rattlesnakes, do people climb bald eagle nests, go in coyote dens and pick up the young these are wild animals for God's sake. He asked for someone not to do something that shouldn't be done and is illegal and detrimental to the snake. If he harrassed everyone after that shame on him and he owes you an apology but he owes nobody an apology for not allowing irresponsible behavior.
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