Food for thought

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brick911
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Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

We should think about following in Cali's footsteps and look to start recruiting some people.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8027

Any thoughts, suggestions, pro's, con's? Let's discuss and maybe we can hash out a plan on a Sunday night discussion.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Food for thought

Post by kyle loucks »

This would require quite a commitment and funds for the table, banner, displays... etc. Contemplated a table a few years ago.
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

So how does Cali do it? Maybe we should talk to them about what has and hasn't worked for them.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Food for thought

Post by kyle loucks »

Dont know if someone takes a collection or not.... Tables are nominally 40-80$ depending on the venue. Need a pretty good sized backdrop which could run a couple o bills...
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vincemartino
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Re: Food for thought

Post by vincemartino »

Looks like they got the table comped, which I'm guessing is a good chunk of change. We would need an "in" at one of the bigger shows like Hamburg or MARS or something. I don't even know what kind of shows there are farther north, I'm guessing a few.

They have some really nice banners and signs there, we should see who it is that designed them. But like the post said, it required the coming together of quite a few peeps. I'd be willing to participate in something like this though, despite limited funds. I have a few animals too.
millside
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Re: Food for thought

Post by millside »

so you are looking to bring in new people from a reptile show, where those evil people actually keep herps as pets, oh my
Nice idea, but I foresee in my crystal ball all kinds of Northeast chapter problems,
but then maybe that is one of our problems already,
Cali can do it because they keep and bag alot of stuff, Northeast frowns on it so bad that some don't even say they go to trade shows in case they are accused of being an evil POACHER.
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

I think its an opportunity to recruit individuals who are already interested in herps. Whether or not they collect is not really relevant as they would either do or not do it already. Of course, I realize that bringing in new people carries the burden of the judgment of the jury here. Meeting people in person provides an opportunity to shorten the learning curve and explain to individuals what NAFHA's policies are. And really, its pretty simple... if you collect, keep it legal. If you are on an NAFHA outing, there's no collection at all.

I know the "feel" of the FHF NE Chapter. If we were to introduce NAFHA, I'm sure we would introduce people to FHF as well. But it would give us an opportunity to touch on all the mistakes people make.... location data, holding of sensitive species, etc.

Don't get me wrong Doug, I hear exactly what you're saying. I know all the risk and probable headaches involved with bringing in new members. But if we want NAFHA to be the biggest baddest herp database ever, we have to weather the storm and grow it. There's plenty of herpers out there already doing their thing. Why not try to get them to contribute. A lot of people are looking for a way to give back, but don't know where to start.
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vincemartino
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Re: Food for thought

Post by vincemartino »

There are probably quite a few people out there that are into keeping and breeding herps but don't really ever go into the field. Personally, I have converted two such people. A local Ball Python breeder who I met working at a pet store in high school, and a friend of mine who keeps Bearded Dragons and Iguanas. They both got a lot of enjoyment going on hikes with me and finding "real herps." It didn't turn into a hobby or obsession but they still occasionally go with me. If NAFHA recruits more people like this - newcomers that are already into herping in a different way - I think it could be a good thing.
heavenscloud
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Re: Food for thought

Post by heavenscloud »

brick911 wrote:Of course, I realize that bringing in new people carries the burden of the judgment of the jury here.
Who cares? The "jury" here is 2 or 3 people that are not law enforcement and border on the fanatical. Go for it, Bob.
brick911 wrote:And really, its pretty simple... if you collect, keep it legal.
That's one of the most important things we can stress to newcomers. Know the laws. Everything else is just someone's opinion.
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

heavenscloud wrote:
brick911 wrote:Of course, I realize that bringing in new people carries the burden of the judgment of the jury here.
Who cares? The "jury" here is 2 or 3 people that are not law enforcement and border on the fanatical. Go for it, Bob.
brick911 wrote:And really, its pretty simple... if you collect, keep it legal.
That's one of the most important things we can stress to newcomers. Know the laws. Everything else is just someone's opinion.
Exactly. The "jury" is hard to fend off though and has done well in the past at smacking down potential members. I need more support, and sometimes my stance on it is probably just viewed as me vs. them attitude. All I want is to expand the database. That's what I signed up for.

To your second point: I couldn't agree more.
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themattsign
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Re: Food for thought

Post by themattsign »

I agree, I think getting the word out is important. I kind of fell backwards into find this forum, I asked spllogics for a herp ID after finding paherps.com and after an email convo back and forth with him he gave me the link. If it hadn't been for that I probably wouldn't have gotten into field herping. There's more than likely more people out there that find herps interesting, but lacked knowledge/encouragement to go out and get into it that could really benefit from knowing about this forum. If they are going to get into it, we might as well help them learn the lessons we've learned (knowing/obeying the laws, being careful with who you give out locations to, etc.) through out the years, as well as helping them develop a passion for herps.
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KingCam
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Re: Food for thought

Post by KingCam »

themattsign wrote:I agree, I think getting the word out is important. I kind of fell backwards into find this forum, I asked spllogics for a herp ID after finding paherps.com and after an email convo back and forth with him he gave me the link. If it hadn't been for that I probably wouldn't have gotten into field herping. There's more than likely more people out there that find herps interesting, but lacked knowledge/encouragement to go out and get into it that could really benefit from knowing about this forum. If they are going to get into it, we might as well help them learn the lessons we've learned (knowing/obeying the laws, being careful with who you give out locations to, etc.) through out the years, as well as helping them develop a passion for herps.
We should create a "Herp ID Request" sub forum and search engine optimize it to come up on google when people search for ID help. That in itself would probably draw a lot of new comers to the forum, and thus expose them to NAFHA and the database.
heavenscloud
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Re: Food for thought

Post by heavenscloud »

One thing this subforum does well is educate, and inviting people here should be encouraged.
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Siobhan
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Re: Food for thought

Post by Siobhan »

Not sure where you guys stand on this, but just thought I'd throw this out there. I have a friend who owns a sign company. She's not necessarily a "herper" but has an passion for nature, reptiles, etc. and I'm sure who love to get involved with the banners. I can get her info for you if you do decide to proceed. I'm not sure what her rates are though...
dragoncjo
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Re: Food for thought

Post by dragoncjo »

Is the thesis the following,

'That more data in the naherp database will result in increased animal protection and long run positives towards for all reptile and amphibian species in general, which will outweigh the risks associated with increased herping traffic, habitat encroachment by herpers, possible rise in poaching.'

I have my opinion on this but I won't throw it all out there since I'm not a member and simply like to engage in conversation with you all. But here are my two main points which are based on experience and not simply random ideas and thoughts. First concern would be exposing county records, some which are easy to narrow down to some folks(not all) who simply are out to exploit wildlife populations for monetary gain. While common knowledge to some its not common knowledge to everyone, in particular folks who don't have time to research alot about wildlife populations/localities. At the same time I'm not sure all on here have a good knowledge of the exploitation of wild caught herps, some are rather ignorant and nieve and I would be worried about folks getting sucked into giving out info easily to folks with monetary gain on their mind, there is fact to back that up as well. Second point is at what level is there too many folks in the field where damage is occurring simple from to many people in the field. I think at some level the amount of damage outweighs the amount of gain for the SPECIES, not the database, ourselves, etc. Again this is based on fact/expirience.
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Siobhan
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Re: Food for thought

Post by Siobhan »

This is going to be a difficult one. However, I think it might not necessarily be a bad idea. Knowledge is king, right?

I think that there a lots of oeople out there that just don't know what's available. Look at us, so many people jumped down our throats at first and we meant no harm. Its possible that there's others out there in similar situation that just need people giving advice and helping them.

As for the people out there trying to collect, ect they will continue to do it whether we're out there or not. They won't stop and have their own means so trying to keep knowledge from good people may not be the way to go? There's always going to be bad people doing bad things. But, if you can reach the good ones it may be beneficial. Some may not know some of their practices are bad and just need that extra advice.

Not only that I've had lots of people in my life critize me and think I'm crazy for dating a herper and even more-- herping myself. Joining this forum and meeting people with similar interests has really helped me. If you can touch other people its a good thing. Just my thoughts ...
dragoncjo
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Re: Food for thought

Post by dragoncjo »

Siohban, all of that seems to be helping oneself feel better. I'm sort of looking at it directly from the animals perspective what is the long term benefit for reptiles and amphibians in regards to getting more people out in the field. The goal is to do everything where marginal gain=marginal cost, at what point is it lopsided? I'm just thinking from my expirience and I can look at the areas I herp. The benefit in these areas where I herp is increased vigilance which decrease the chance of illegal activities and also increases the ability for one to recognize short term trends in population size. If alarming patterns are detected then that data can be communicated with people in the position to take action. At what point though is there too much human prescence where the activities cause harm to the population and outweigh the benefits. I ask myself this a lot and I'm cognizant of it when in the field. I'm constantly looking at risk/reward but this could have much to do with my interests outside of herping which demand this train of thought. Sending armies of herpers armed with gps, cameras and notepads into an area for data is great but what really is the benefit to the animals? I'm not saying restrict spreading field herping as hobby to people, but I'm certainly not a proponent of campaigning for more herpers. Much of my belief is based on the fact that we really do nothing as a group that helps animals, its mostly about us and thats just me being honest.

In regards to there will always be people doing bad things, very true, however I'm not going to make it easier for them. Knowledge is king when taken with an open mind by those who want education. If people are open to changing their ways then forums like this can be a great help.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Food for thought

Post by kyle loucks »

Thanks Siobhan.

When I first thought of having a table back in 08 to advertise the organization, I thought about the venue and those that frequent the shows. Mostly, they are hobbyists, breeders or little kids with their families. IMO, most dont field herp. Recently, I was at a herp club meeting and even those folks didn't actively "herp". Sure, there are inherent risks associated with what we do and those that disagree with the methods. It doesn't help that this area of the country has had its share of herping lawlessness, some of which was unknowingly aided by contacts on FHF. However, this organization, the North American Field Herping Association, is a data collecting organization. We will do the best we can to ensure that the data is captured carefully and securely. We will also do what we can to educate and several folks have done so in the name of NAFHA. What my personal goal for an information booth would be for folks to realize that herping does not have to be synonymous with collecting, even where legal. Some of the images captured here have spoken volumns and the information gained by providing ecological data may actually lead to something good.... someday.
Some folks will always keep that information to themselves and that is ok. But this site is what it is.
Does everyone know that there are several other field herping forums out there that don't nearly have the same cautionary criteria or critical peer checks as we do? Just checkin. Information booth? maybe, we would have to be selective with the venue and be able to answer any questions and defend the purpose.
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

Chris,

Yes, that's probably my thesis anyway. I don't know if its right or wrong, hence a discussion here amongst my peers.

I understand where you're coming from. You're a South Jersey guy. You don't leave. You don't want to leave. I understand that in the Pines, there are spots that are herper parades. I understand that there are spots outside of the pines that are the same. As examples, I won't use any in our area... Snake Road in IL, Whitewater in CA.

What I'm trying to do is look for people in areas that aren't covered in the database. ...or are covered poorly. I know your argument. Why enter data on land that will be protected for ever? I get that. I almost agree, and have no beef with your debate there. But outside of our small, isolated area, there are acres of land that have no data. Even our county map is misleading. The NAFHA members might be proud to "color-in" a county, but these particular counties won't really benefit from 5-6 records from 2009. These are the counties that need attention.

Trust me, if I work the table and get people interested in herping Bucks County (my home), I'm gonna cringe (they're my snakes!!! :lol: ). But from my viewpoint and keeping the big picture in mind, I need to take the good with the bad and hope that our efforts recruit people that already herp or are willing to herp areas that have practically no vouchers.

With all that said, let me reiterate what the big picture is to me: We (NAFHA) will one day have the most complete herp database in the world. Any agency, private or state, will have no choice but to pay attention to our data. Our data as a whole will help conservation efforts in ways we can think of, and ways cannot even brainstorm at this point. We are a work in progress.
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Food for thought

Post by muskiemagnet »

dragoncjo wrote:Is the thesis the following,

'That more data in the naherp database will result in increased animal protection and long run positives towards for all reptile and amphibian species in general, which will outweigh the risks associated with increased herping traffic, habitat encroachment by herpers, possible rise in poaching.'

I have my opinion on this but I won't throw it all out there since I'm not a member and simply like to engage in conversation with you all. But here are my two main points which are based on experience and not simply random ideas and thoughts. First concern would be exposing county records, some which are easy to narrow down to some folks(not all) who simply are out to exploit wildlife populations for monetary gain. While common knowledge to some its not common knowledge to everyone, in particular folks who don't have time to research alot about wildlife populations/localities. At the same time I'm not sure all on here have a good knowledge of the exploitation of wild caught herps, some are rather ignorant and nieve and I would be worried about folks getting sucked into giving out info easily to folks with monetary gain on their mind, there is fact to back that up as well. Second point is at what level is there too many folks in the field where damage is occurring simple from to many people in the field. I think at some level the amount of damage outweighs the amount of gain for the SPECIES, not the database, ourselves, etc. Again this is based on fact/expirience.

this is good stuff to think about. those who put the work in will find this forum. i did. it's just a matter of time that they do. if the passion is there, it will happen.

i don't think advertising is such a good idea. there are those who love native field herping, and there are those who love breeding. in my limited experiences with breeders, they are in it for a different reason. i don't know how to articulate this feeling to you all, but beware. if you advertise, you may give them ideas that otherwise they may never have had. the possibility of being infiltrated by the wrong people should be avoided. in my opinion, they are here already, beware if you want to truly protect the herps. take advantage of the fact that the people that could hurt the most will generally not put the effort into it. it takes time and gaining knowledge. it's easy if someone hands it to you.

all i'm saying is that you might be setting herps up for a bad thing. err on the side of caution would be my advice. take this from someone who understands the frailty of populations in fragmented ecosystems such as what you've all got in the NE. prices increase due to demand, and designer snakes seem to be the thing. what happens when they all get sick of morphs, and it becomes the in thing to keep natives. even now, local specific natives can be in higher demand. st. mary's county maryland and tyrrell county north carolina coastal plains are a perfect example. i don't want our beautiful wisconsin bulls to ever become popular. they are hurting enough from habitat loss and road mortality.

i realize i may be starting to get long-winded so i'll stop. i think you get my point by now.



-ben
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Food for thought

Post by muskiemagnet »

brick911 wrote: With all that said, let me reiterate what the big picture is to me: We (NAFHA) will one day have the most complete herp database in the world. Any agency, private or state, will have no choice but to pay attention to our data. Our data as a whole will help conservation efforts in ways we can think of, and ways cannot even brainstorm at this point. We are a work in progress.

i get this and all, but don't let it become an obsession to get data from every nook and cranny. recruitment at such shows may open pandoras box. not worth it if you ask me.


-ben
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Siobhan
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Re: Food for thought

Post by Siobhan »

I don't disagree with either side. I'm just saying- how do you reach the ones that are already doing it? Let's put recruiting non herpers aside for a moment. What about the kids and adults that are already field herping but just don't know it? We herped for years before we even knew there was a name for. Even went to reptile shows. If there was someone there able to answer questions and help us understand what we were doing, we might have been contibuting for years. I've always read you can't reach success without taking some risks. If you don't set up a table and connect with people how do you do it then? Just let it go and passively hope people come across the website? And hope that when people tear into their bad field etiquette they don't go running? I can't honestly say that setting up a table is a good idea but I don't think its necessarily a bad one either. I can say confidently though, teaching people the right ways is a good idea.
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Food for thought

Post by muskiemagnet »

Siobhan wrote:I don't disagree with either side. I'm just saying- how do you reach the ones that are already doing it? Let's put recruiting non herpers aside for a moment. What about the kids and adults that are already field herping but just don't know it? We herped for years before we even knew there was a name for. Even went to reptile shows. If there was someone there able to answer questions and help us understand what we were doing, we might have been contibuting for years. I've always read you can't reach success without taking some risks. If you don't set up a table and connect with people how do you do it then? Just let it go and passively hope people come across the website? And hope that when people tear into their bad field etiquette they don't go running? I can't honestly say that setting up a table is a good idea but I don't think its necessarily a bad one either. I can say confidently though, teaching people the right ways is a good idea.

i see your point. i have to tell you that i am the far right/left, whichever way you look at it. my #1 priority is the animals. i am looking at the worst-case. yes, good things will come from it, but the bad(in my opinion) outweighs the good. data is great, but at what cost? recruitment of mostly breeding mentality folks is, again, my opinion, not the best approach to the data question. i understand the desire to "fill in the blanks" as far as counties goes, but recruiting sketchy individuals is not the answer. there are probably fifty good to one bad, but, the one bad has friends. i'd be bummed if my spots got collected out because NAFHA needed recruits to achieve "total dominance" of north american data. seriously think about it before any recruitment were to take place.

if someone is serious about field herping, they will find the forum. word of mouth and internet searching will reveal much. for those less inclined, they will not find us. this is the group that worries me anyways.

when i got back into my passion, i searched the internet. i found a lot of cool things. one of my searches ended up on pingleton's website. his site is basically a journal of his snaking adventures. this is exactly what i have been doing for years on paper. i have pages and pages of dictation describing my field outings over the years. kauffeld did this as well. i contacted mike via email trying to hook up with like-minded people. he directed me to the forum.

if they yearn for it, they will find it.

i'm making presumptions about people, and i feel bad for that, but the animals are most important to me. if you betray my trust, you are gone in my mind. spots are spots. gold, in my opinion. i want to enjoy this the rest of my life. i also want the younger folks to also enjoy it. pass it on forever. you can't do that if they are gone.

be wise. question the motives. the database can wait to be filled. no need to hurry it along. it's a risk i wouldn't be willing to take.

-ben
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

I understand marketing in the right venue, but I'm not comfortable stereotyping the way its coming across here... as you said about making presumptions. I've never been a fan of guilty until proven innocent.
i'm making presumptions about people, and i feel bad for that, but the animals are most important to me. if you betray my trust, you are gone in my mind. spots are spots. gold, in my opinion. i want to enjoy this the rest of my life. i also want the younger folks to also enjoy it. pass it on forever. you can't do that if they are gone.
This seems contradictory to me. How do you pass it on forever, if you keep it a secret? Do you mean to only those you trust? That's definitely your perogative (Bobby Brown), so don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking your individual beliefs.

But NAFHA is not a private organization by any means. There is no test, or judgment to be accepted.

As I said, I put this topic here to discuss promoting at herpetocultural shows. If people think that's a bad idea, that's fine. I challenge this though... If you are against that venue, then where?

King Cam's idea about SEO identification help was the best alternative (maybe the only) I've seen so far.

*Playing devil's advocate to keep the opinions and possible brainstorms coming....
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

And don't get me wrong Ben - I might say I want to be the biggest, baddest database in all the land, but I'm focused on the herps' well-being. It's more about the effect, then the cause. If you build it, they will come.
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Food for thought

Post by muskiemagnet »

brick911- i understand what you are saying, really i do. the way things are going, in order to save species, we need to conserve. i get the fact that the database will help achieve this goal. do we want to let it get to the point where the government sets aside "off limits" areas in order to allow species to perpetuate? unanimously, i'm sure the answer is "no". how can those who love something live without the enjoyment of said things? what's the point in conservation if no one can enjoy it?

all i'm saying is that there may be an inherent risk in recruiting. why not start with chapter events to explore vacant data? the aftermath of which would be data, as well as greater friendships and networking towards a common goal.

-ben
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Re: Food for thought

Post by Bobbleton »

Yeah don't recruit with the boyscouts or at the library, that'd just be silly. Which reminds me - I'm gonna need some volunteers to help monitor rattlesnake dens next year . . . Anyone know how I can go about setting up a table at sweetwater?
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Re: Food for thought

Post by dragoncjo »

Bobbleton wrote:Yeah don't recruit with the boyscouts or at the library, that'd just be silly. Which reminds me - I'm gonna need some volunteers to help monitor rattlesnake dens next year . . . Anyone know how I can go about setting up a table at sweetwater?
Hah, thats pretty good actually.

Brick, in regards to the database being so big states can't ignore it, I don't believe from the feedback I've heard that is the issue, not a question of being ignored. The issue I've heard is states don't have enough staff and resources to comb through their own data, goverments state, local and federal are running huge deficits, spending cuts are rampant. Two is the data is not in the exact same format for each state so that makes it cumbersome and more tedious to work with.

Your correct in that I view everything through my area(SJ), but these shows are local(hamburg and mara) so I think my context is appropriate. I have a fair amount of expirience in this whole sort of thing regarding collecting, reptile markets, poaching as I've sort of researched that area hard in efforts to protect the species in SJ. No offense to any of you on here but some of you have an idea that everything in this hobby is puppy dogs, rainbows and ice cream, this sort of Obama/utopian mentality of the hobby that you can change anyone, I'm not trying to be a complete cynical person(its hard) but there is lots of bad stuff going on at these shows. Maybe the things I know are a small fraction of what actually occurs but the threat of these isolated things are enough to make me want to keep very solid firewalls between that world and here.
dragoncjo
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Re: Food for thought

Post by dragoncjo »

brick911 wrote:
As I said, I put this topic here to discuss promoting at herpetocultural shows. If people think that's a bad idea, that's fine. I challenge this though... If you are against that venue, then where?
I would suggest getting involved more with people who have the power to direct assets, time, effort towards the actually preservation of land, the conservation work that will help protect the species we seek. If your a PA guy work with the folks preserving land from natural gas activities. Talk to the biologist responsible for decisions regarding the area. If your in NJ work with the state biologists and massive land conservation groups we have here. Not long ago there was a bio blitz in NNJ and the responses to attend was poor at best. Doug, the solider he is did it and I think a couple others tried but had previous committments(including Kyle the other solider). Those are the things you want to engage in, where you can market your data directly with folks who can use it and get feedback on where and how they can use it. There was some powerful folks at that bio blitz and it was a good oppurtunity. I didn't attend because I was busy with conservation work that I gained access to by interacting with folks that attend that blitz. Maybe a booth of some sort would work at one of those would work. You guys gather data and that is exactly what they do there.
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

Bobbleton wrote:Yeah don't recruit with the boyscouts or at the library, that'd just be silly. Which reminds me - I'm gonna need some volunteers to help monitor rattlesnake dens next year . . . Anyone know how I can go about setting up a table at sweetwater?
Bobbleton is too school for cool. Apparently a respectful discussion warranted such a sarcasm-laced remark. I hope you patted yourself on the back. Well done.

I'll weed through the immaturity to find your points though. I do feel that boyscouts and the library would be excellent places to push herp-awareness and conservation to young people. However, NAFHA currently doesn't offer membership to people less than 18 years due to legality issues that I haven't taken the time to understand. That's not my decision. "Junior-membership" has been discussed, but still is an open-ended topic.
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

dragoncjo wrote:
brick911 wrote:
As I said, I put this topic here to discuss promoting at herpetocultural shows. If people think that's a bad idea, that's fine. I challenge this though... If you are against that venue, then where?
I would suggest getting involved more with people who have the power to direct assets, time, effort towards the actually preservation of land, the conservation work that will help protect the species we seek. If your a PA guy work with the folks preserving land from natural gas activities. Talk to the biologist responsible for decisions regarding the area. If your in NJ work with the state biologists and massive land conservation groups we have here. Not long ago there was a bio blitz in NNJ and the responses to attend was poor at best. Doug, the solider he is did it and I think a couple others tried but had previous committments(including Kyle the other solider). Those are the things you want to engage in, where you can market your data directly with folks who can use it and get feedback on where and how they can use it. There was some powerful folks at that bio blitz and it was a good oppurtunity. I didn't attend because I was busy with conservation work that I gained access to by interacting with folks that attend that blitz. Maybe a booth of some sort would work at one of those would work. You guys gather data and that is exactly what they do there.
Chris, this the best idea I have heard yet. And frankly, its something we need to do better at. Every bio-blitz is a major opportunity to find like-minded individuals. I've never even been to a bio-blitz. I'll list it on my long list of improvements to make. :thumb:
heavenscloud
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Re: Food for thought

Post by heavenscloud »

dragoncjo wrote:No offense to any of you on here but some of you have an idea that everything in this hobby is puppy dogs, rainbows and ice cream, this sort of Obama/utopian mentality of the hobby that you can change anyone, I'm not trying to be a complete cynical person(its hard) but there is lots of bad stuff going on at these shows. Maybe the things I know are a small fraction of what actually occurs but the threat of these isolated things are enough to make me want to keep very solid firewalls between that world and here.
I think most of the regulars here "get it," which is why there's a constant emphasis on locality info, legal issues, etc. I understand your "better safe than sorry" approach, but I don't see the harm in having a table at a herp show. It's the same old argument: those who participate in this "bad stuff going on" don't need these forums, and newcomers generally get shot down like clay pigeons when they ask for locality info. I know there are exceptions.

However, you downplay the utility of these forums. Some people that learn about FHF/NAFHA at a herp show might stick around here long enough to learn something about responsible field herping, which makes it worthwhile to get the word out there.
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Siobhan
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Re: Food for thought

Post by Siobhan »

brick911 wrote:I understand marketing in the right venue, but I'm not comfortable stereotyping the way its coming across here... as you said about making presumptions. I've never been a fan of guilty until proven innocent.

As I said, I put this topic here to discuss promoting at herpetocultural shows. If people think that's a bad idea, that's fine. I challenge this though... If you are against that venue, then where?

King Cam's idea about SEO identification help was the best alternative (maybe the only) I've seen so far.

*Playing devil's advocate to keep the opinions and possible brainstorms coming....
What about promoting at colleges and universities?
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

Siobhan wrote:
brick911 wrote:I understand marketing in the right venue, but I'm not comfortable stereotyping the way its coming across here... as you said about making presumptions. I've never been a fan of guilty until proven innocent.

As I said, I put this topic here to discuss promoting at herpetocultural shows. If people think that's a bad idea, that's fine. I challenge this though... If you are against that venue, then where?

King Cam's idea about SEO identification help was the best alternative (maybe the only) I've seen so far.

*Playing devil's advocate to keep the opinions and possible brainstorms coming....
What about promoting at colleges and universities?
I was hoping Spinifer might have some ideas for that. I know he gives students extra credit for running migration routes with him (I think that's the way it works anyway), so I'm sure that's not all he does. And he's good for an idea every now and then. :mrgreen:
dragoncjo
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Re: Food for thought

Post by dragoncjo »

Worth it to get the word out if the gain is more then the risk, but thats difficult to gauge.

I've seen bad folks link up with good folks on here. Some people are great salesman and data and things are shared before people meet, sometimes its part of the feeling out process.
heavenscloud
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Re: Food for thought

Post by heavenscloud »

dragoncjo wrote:Worth it to get the word out if the gain is more then the risk, but thats difficult to gauge.
Most situations present a risk/gain scenario. There's a very real risk of contracting Lyme by going out to look for snakes, but I go anyway. I posit that educating people about responsible herping practices will tip the scale to the side of "gain."
dragoncjo wrote:I've seen bad folks link up with good folks on here. Some people are great salesman and data and things are shared before people meet, sometimes its part of the feeling out process.
Right, but is that the exception or the rule? If people are burned once, they will most likely learn from it.

I'd rather not argue with you. We've both been around here for awhile, we're both well-intentioned, and we're both on the same "side" even though we may disagree.
dragoncjo
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Re: Food for thought

Post by dragoncjo »

I will admit one of the most positive things I've seen here is the amount of folks who are majors in environmental sciences, mostly from MD. I think that has created much more intelligent discussions on here over the last couple years and is nice to see as many of these folks usually don't partake in online forums.
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Food for thought

Post by muskiemagnet »

Bobbleton wrote:Yeah don't recruit with the boyscouts or at the library, that'd just be silly. Which reminds me - I'm gonna need some volunteers to help monitor rattlesnake dens next year . . . Anyone know how I can go about setting up a table at sweetwater?

yes. exactly. let's try to keep sarcasm out of this though. i feel this is a really worthwhile conversation. let's try to keep it that way.

-ben
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Food for thought

Post by muskiemagnet »

whatever comes of this, be careful. i do not understand the good that may be at your fingertips, but be prudent. it may be bad.

-ben
Bobbleton
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Re: Food for thought

Post by Bobbleton »

brick911 wrote: Bobbleton is too school for cool. Apparently a respectful discussion warranted such a sarcasm-laced remark. I hope you patted yourself on the back. Well done.
Its printed and on my fridge.
I'll weed through the immaturity to find your points though. I do feel that boyscouts and the library would be excellent places to push herp-awareness and conservation to young people. However, NAFHA currently doesn't offer membership to people less than 18 years due to legality issues that I haven't taken the time to understand. That's not my decision. "Junior-membership" has been discussed, but still is an open-ended topic.
They STILL ARE great places along with like a million others. Really, in what way is any of that a limiting factor? Do the boyscouts have to become members of NAFHA to go on a NAFHA educational trip or experience a demonstration? If you want to be the jehovah's witnesses of field herping to "instill a love for snakes" or whatever . . . do they not learn to love unless they're actively filling data gaps? Just seems it would make more sense to try tapping a demographic not literally CENTERED around the concept that HERPS=$$$ and the other way around. The purpose of a herp show is to buy and sell animals. The purpose of a kid is to learn about the world (you of all people know). A herp show may get you immediate results, but that doesn't make it the most positive or responsible option.
muskiemagnet wrote: yes. exactly. let's try to keep sarcasm out of this though. i feel this is a really worthwhile conversation. let's try to keep it that way.
I agree that its a worthwhile discussion . . . one that should be well thought through by all involved. That having been said - I personally am not going to dilute my point with politeness. If I think something is absurd, I am going to convey that in the most effective manner possible. I totally feel really bad about it, though.

But we're all adults . . . we've been through this and much more in the past. Most of the time everyone does a good job of not getting too personal or taking things too personally, with the idea in mind that all involved (hopefully) have the best interests of the wildlife in the driver's seat. I think that's the case.
Bobbleton
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Re: Food for thought

Post by Bobbleton »

heavenscloud wrote:Most situations present a risk/gain scenario. There's a very real risk of contracting Lyme by going out to look for snakes, but I go anyway. I posit that educating people about responsible herping practices will tip the scale to the side of "gain."
Yes, the key difference is that with Lyme, the only thing in jeopardy is YOUR health. You have the right to do that. No single person or group has the right to roll the risk/gain dice with the health of the wildlife. The very idea is pretentious and insulting to anyone who enjoys the same wildlife but hasn't seen this forum, or isn't interested in furthering the agendas of this organization.
Right, but is that the exception or the rule? If people are burned once, they will most likely learn from it.
Ah, trial and error. I plan to do that with my children . . . and if a couple die in the process well then I'll just have to try to be more careful next time.
millside
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Re: Food for thought

Post by millside »

bioblitz-haha,
I was the only one at the Great Swamp bio-blitz.
heavenscloud
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Re: Food for thought

Post by heavenscloud »

Edit: Agree to disagree. :thumb:
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

Bobbleton wrote:
brick911 wrote: Bobbleton is too school for cool. Apparently a respectful discussion warranted such a sarcasm-laced remark. I hope you patted yourself on the back. Well done.
Its printed and on my fridge.
I'll weed through the immaturity to find your points though. I do feel that boyscouts and the library would be excellent places to push herp-awareness and conservation to young people. However, NAFHA currently doesn't offer membership to people less than 18 years due to legality issues that I haven't taken the time to understand. That's not my decision. "Junior-membership" has been discussed, but still is an open-ended topic.
They STILL ARE great places along with like a million others. Really, in what way is any of that a limiting factor? Do the boyscouts have to become members of NAFHA to go on a NAFHA educational trip or experience a demonstration? If you want to be the jehovah's witnesses of field herping to "instill a love for snakes" or whatever . . . do they not learn to love unless they're actively filling data gaps? Just seems it would make more sense to try tapping a demographic not literally CENTERED around the concept that HERPS=$$$ and the other way around. The purpose of a herp show is to buy and sell animals. The purpose of a kid is to learn about the world (you of all people know). A herp show may get you immediate results, but that doesn't make it the most positive or responsible option.
muskiemagnet wrote: yes. exactly. let's try to keep sarcasm out of this though. i feel this is a really worthwhile conversation. let's try to keep it that way.
I agree that its a worthwhile discussion . . . one that should be well thought through by all involved. That having been said - I personally am not going to dilute my point with politeness. If I think something is absurd, I am going to convey that in the most effective manner possible. I totally feel really bad about it, though.

But we're all adults . . . we've been through this and much more in the past. Most of the time everyone does a good job of not getting too personal or taking things too personally, with the idea in mind that all involved (hopefully) have the best interests of the wildlife in the driver's seat. I think that's the case.
Ok, the fridge thing was funny. :lol:

For the rest of it, you do make really good points. Don't think I'm arguing for herp shows. I was unclear as to whether this was a good idea or not.

I think kids are where it starts. You're absolutely right. I guess my main purpose is to find people already herping and see if any of them are willing to contribute data. I don't know if there's a proactive way to go about this or not without risking too much. Sitting back and waiting for people to show up here just doesn't seem like enough. It might be the safest way. I'm not sure its the best way. I really don't know.
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

millside wrote:bioblitz-haha,
I was the only one at the Great Swamp bio-blitz.
For the record, I was planning on coming with my kids, but there was an issue with age. I forget exactly. If there's more coming, keep posting them. Like I said, we should all try and do better with this.
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VanAR
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Re: Food for thought

Post by VanAR »

Something you could do (if you don't already), which doesn't really fall into the criteria of "recruitment", is simply set up community outreach experiences where you teach locals about the herps native to their area. I've been a part of these types of programs for several years now, and they give you a really good opportunity to educate people about the value of herps. If you do these kinds of things long enough, inevitably you will spark a real interest in a novice, and use that opportunity to teach them the methods/ethics that you feel are most appropriate.

Even if you don't get that extra bit, doing these events is usually a lot of fun and the kids get a real kick out of it.
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pete
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Re: Food for thought

Post by pete »

Brick.....you need to change your avatar again. The reminder of snow is entirely inappropriate during the warm months. Many of us are in complete denial about the impending colder weather.

Sorry, but it had to be said

:? :P

I liked Vans Idea the best btw.
millside
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Re: Food for thought

Post by millside »

yea, what is up with that stupid avatar.
totally inappropriate on this forum
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brick911
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Re: Food for thought

Post by brick911 »

I'll change it on Monday. I haven't enjoyed looking at it either. Lol
ugh

Re: Food for thought

Post by ugh »

What a nice idea for an outreach program!

Except for the fact that
these are people that KEEEEEP reptiles and amphibians.....see what I'm getting to here?

BRICK,a couple questions from one parasite I mean one herper to another-
have you ever been to a reptile show?I have.
ever tried to discuss conservation with the people there?the customers,the vendors?I have.Most don't really want to hear it as it doesnt sit well with their 'hobby'/means of income,respectively.
ever seen how many of the animals at these shows are wild caught?Or how many were born/hatched diectly from wild-caught animals aka 'captive born'?
would you be willing to use a productive spot YOU FOUND ON YOUR OWN as the one with which to introduce these folks to fieldherping?

Why do you want to do this,do you actually feel it will make a difference in the impact NAFHA has,big picture?Honestly I can think of at least a hundred places to go to try to cultivate interest in the database that I'd find less fault with than a reptile show,if I'm understanding this right.
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