A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Extended discussion forum.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Environmental impacts of Fieldherping

Post by justinm » October 16th, 2011, 6:40 pm

Jim, WTF? It's not Winter yet. I don't get all these posts lately about our impact, on every aspect of the world. If you're going towards a goal I'd love to know, but these posts are really buzzkilling the whole forum for me. Ugh.

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 678
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Scott Waters » October 16th, 2011, 7:00 pm

The topics related to ethics will all be merged into this topic (and have already).

thanks,
scott

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Data/photo impact & general impact of fielfherping.

Post by hellihooks » October 16th, 2011, 7:02 pm

azatrox wrote:
This thread is for discussion of how data collection & photo collection, and fieldherping in general affects individual herps, populations, and species as a whole. For other topics, such as environmental impacts, and collection issues, please find and post on the appropriate threads.
So are you asking to what extent data collection/photoing affects herp pops to the exclusion of other environmental impacts, handling, collecting, etc.? What exactly is meant by "data collection"? How are we collecting data? Simple GPS coords, or are we actually handling animals and taking measurements, blood samples, etc. but not collecting?
-Kris
Data collection can range from insitu voucher photos up through actual DNA sampling. There is an topical overlap for collecting herps for data (museum vouchers) but I think that's better addressed under the 'Collecting' heading.
Effect of photography (including all actions associated with it) is another topic, as is 'general' negative/positive effects of fieldherping on herps. thx jim

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by hellihooks » October 16th, 2011, 7:04 pm

I resign as moderator.

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 678
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Scott Waters » October 16th, 2011, 7:05 pm

Lots of angles when it comes to herping ethics, for sure. We are looking into an article (for Herp Nation Magazine) about in-situ herping. Definitely an interesting thrill to go herping, and to remain totally hands off. Photography? Well, I guess that changes things, even if you don't touch the herps. Good discussion, nonetheless. :)

scott

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Daryl Eby » October 16th, 2011, 7:33 pm

Phil Peak wrote:So what you are saying Daryl is you do not stuff snakes into coolers on ice? Near the ice, but not in actual contact with the ice? What the heck are you photographing? I've managed to get some pretty good photo's of some difficult to photograph species by being patient and dare I say, gentle.

Phil
Actually, there was not even any ice or ice packs, just cool water bottles. I've only done this twice that I recall, and only for about three minutes. I'll give a few details because it may dispel your misgiving or provide instruction on when or how to reasonably use this technique.

Once was with a group of four or five ground snakes with different color morphs. I wanted to get a group shot to show the variety and they were too active to keep all in frame. In truth, they were probably too warm since I was unthinkingly trying to use the hide technique to pose nocturnal snakes on very warm ground on a hot day. Cooling them slightly while also using a cool water bottle to cool the place I posed them made all the difference in the world. They were still mobile and alert, just not hyper and freaked out. If I caused any harm in this particular photo attempt it was likely from carelessly overheating them (which the cooling helped offset) and bunching them together where the stress pheromones from the other snakes may have triggered further stress.

The other time was with a very small black head snake (forget the subspecies) and it was completely spastic. It refused to go under or stay under any hide or even slow down. Each attempt to pick it up from the rocky desert soil risked injuring it or stressing it further. Instead of repeating this risk, I placed it in a cool (not even cold, again just cool water bottles and no ice or cold packs) cooler for 2-3 minutes while I set up a mini-tripod overlooking a clear patch of desert ground. I then gently slid the snake out of the jar, clicked my one decent shot while he FINALLY sat still for about 10 seconds. I then watched him resume normal activity and go along his merry way. This snake also may have been slightly overheated since I found him crossing hot pavement shortly after sunset. The cooling likely help him.

I'd consider these two instances very similar to finding a very warm water snake out basking and dipping him in the creek to cool him off (and bring out more color) before taking a "herp in habitat" shot. Basically the snakes were near the top end of their preferred heat (or possibly overheated) and very active as a result. Cooling them slightly did not drop them below their normal active temp range for season and location where they were found.

"Cooling" herps in this fashion might give you a few seconds or perhaps a minute of slightly reduced activity. It is a FAR cry from chilling a herp until it is completely torpid and can be literally posed into any position desired. I'm sure some folks do that, but that is not what I'm talking about here.

Retes
Posts: 78
Joined: August 18th, 2011, 7:47 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Retes » October 16th, 2011, 9:05 pm

well there you go, hahahahahahaha

You see what I am talking about, finally folks are discussing the subject and guess what, no one agrees. hahahahahahahahaha

Different folks rationalize different reasons they are disturb the animals, hahahahahahaha

For Kris, I agree whole heartedly, if you do not touch them and only record them, it will not bother them at all.

But others have to GET THAT PHOTO. So they rationalize all manner of things to allow that.

Well Scott, and Jim, this is why you have ethics. Ethics are something thats flexible, and no one HAS to abide by them, they can be unethical if they want.

But what ethics do is offer a guideline as to allow herpers to think about the impact they are having, and they are having an impact.

For Mikemike,

Boy do you use some odd logic. Sir, all those things indeed impact herp populations, and we are adding more pressure to all of that. Sir that does not make it OK, or harmless.

Well my fear has come true, Most of the folks here say they love these animals, but many sure do not have any concept that these animals are BEHAVIORAL, and that behavior is aimed at trying to survive in nature. It really should be very clear that when we alter that behavior, it can have negative results.

RobK

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by RobK » October 16th, 2011, 9:42 pm

Retes wrote:Well my fear has come true, Most of the folks here say they love these animals, but many sure do not have any concept that these animals are BEHAVIORAL, and that behavior is aimed at trying to survive in nature. It really should be very clear that when we alter that behavior, it can have negative results.
Frank? You seem like an ethical type guy all around. Just curious how far you're willing to go with those ethics? Do you apply your standards to all animals or just herps?

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by hellihooks » October 16th, 2011, 9:56 pm

Frank,
Ive been studying 'Ethics' for over a decade, with for the last 5 years, a concentration in environmental ethics. I'm in fact, working on a 'Unifying Foundational Basis for All Moral Thought' so with all due respect, you lecturing me on ethics... :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You have a grasp of one small part of the question, but fail to see to the heart of the matter. The question is, who/what benefits/suffers from any given action, and is the initiator's claim to cause that action justifiable?
Here it is in a nutshell... a data collector collects data for the benefit of the species... the photographer collects photos (largely) for his own benefit. So... what gives him that right? THERE is the question you're TRYING to ask. It's the Moral Standing question, which has gone unresolved for 2000 years (which BTW, I also have a new theoretical solution for, in another paper of mine... :D )

I wish everyone the best of luck sorting these things out... me... I'll just write a book on the subject... and probably beat you guys done... :lol: :lol: :lol: cyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa jim

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by -EJ » October 17th, 2011, 3:12 am

I'm trying to grasp how person would or should study 'ethics'... do you get paid for this. The point being... one person.

This brings me back to how one person should tell another person what to do.

Ethics study has to be irony at it's best.
hellihooks wrote:Frank,
Ive been studying 'Ethics' for over a decade, with for the last 5 years, a concentration in environmental ethics. I'm in fact, working on a 'Unifying Foundational Basis for All Moral Thought' so with all due respect, you lecturing me on ethics... :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You have a grasp of one small part of the question, but fail to see to the heart of the matter. The question is, who/what benefits/suffers from any given action, and is the initiator's claim to cause that action justifiable?
Here it is in a nutshell... a data collector collects data for the benefit of the species... the photographer collects photos (largely) for his own benefit. So... what gives him that right? THERE is the question you're TRYING to ask. It's the Moral Standing question, which has gone unresolved for 2000 years (which BTW, I also have a new theoretical solution for, in another paper of mine... :D )

I wish everyone the best of luck sorting these things out... me... I'll just write a book on the subject... and probably beat you guys done... :lol: :lol: :lol: cyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa jim

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Daryl Eby » October 17th, 2011, 5:12 am

Retes wrote:Well my fear has come true, Most of the folks here say they love these animals, but many sure do not have any concept that these animals are BEHAVIORAL, and that behavior is aimed at trying to survive in nature. It really should be very clear that when we alter that behavior, it can have negative results.
I'm really quite tired of your constant harping and judgment on this point. Your tunnel vision is completely blinding you. You are so intent on judging the harm done by others that you are imagining harm, dismissing ulterior benefits, and losing sight of the harm YOU are causing.

How about we flip the issue and examine the potential harm of your observational approach and its potential lethal impact on herps.

You pride yourself (rightly so) in repeated observation of many herps over many years and witnessing "undisturbed" behavior. Is that REALLY natural? Is it natural for herps to ignore the approach and presence of humans and go on about their lives as if the human is not a threat? Shouldn't it be natural (and healthy) for herps (or any animal) to avoid contact or even being seen by potential predators? Yes, humans ARE prey animals, historically and currently. These animals that allow you to approach and observe them are very highly attuned creatures that more often than not sense your presence. They also should know (by instinct or life experience) that a human is a potential threat. Yet, they ignore and tolerate you. Is that natural? Is that healthy. Are you not defeating their instinct and natural behavior by conditioning them that you pose no threat? Does that conditioning to tolerate and ignore you transfer over to other humans? In other words, do they become tolerant to the approach of other humans? Will they now ignore the approach and presence of humans that may mean them harm. Has your conditioning of these animals changed their natural behavior and put them at increased risk from other humans?

Still not following? Let's try an analogy. Wild animals such as deer and elk have learned to avoid humans. This is natural since many humans prey upon them. Wild animals in busy and protected parks get conditioned to tolerate and ignore the presence of humans, some even learn to eat out of their hands. Is this good? Well, it is certainly good for humans. We are now able to get much closer to them. We are able to watch their natural behaviors (other than behaviors relating to natural fear of humans). We are able to "get the photo". We are able to study them in great detail. Does any of that harm the animals? Well, no. Of course not. Well, not until a hunter sneaks into the park and takes advantage of the unnatural conditioning to shoot a few trophies that he would never have been able to approach so easily in the real wild.

[Time for some sarcasm]
So, YOUR behavior is putting the herps you observe at risk. Why are you doing this? It is supposed to be about the animals, Frank. You're supposed to care about them and not your selfish desire (to see them repeatedly in the future). If you REALLY care about the animals, go back out to the all the animals whose human avoidance behavior you have altered and kick some sand in their face. Remind them that humans can't be trusted. Remind them to avoid humans. Not to do so means you only care about your own voyeuristic desires. Once you've done that, never go back outside and risk altering animal behavior again. Do it for the animals, Frank. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
[Sarcasm off]

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Daryl Eby » October 17th, 2011, 6:20 am

hellihooks wrote:I resign as moderator.
Thanks for trying! Seriously.

This discussion has become too unwieldy. I supported the idea of breaking it out into separate topics and possibly even a separate sub-forum. Your efforts to start some of those separate topics was helpful. Too bad all those new threads got consolidated back into this monster thread. The odds of converting all this discussion into a workable document just went from unlikely to impossible. Without some means to separate and deal individually with the many different sub-issues, this whole exercise will likely result in more harm than good. Every time we get close to moving forward on one point, three more points pop up and pull us back. Sad! :(

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Daryl Eby » October 17th, 2011, 6:28 am

-EJ wrote:This brings me back to how one person should tell another person what to do.
Are you telling him that he shouldn't do that? Hmmmm. Did you mention irony?
:beer:

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Daryl Eby » October 17th, 2011, 6:36 am

What were we talking about ? :?

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by hellihooks » October 17th, 2011, 6:50 am

-EJ wrote:I'm trying to grasp how person would or should study 'ethics'... do you get paid for this. The point being... one person.

This brings me back to how one person should tell another person what to do.

Ethics study has to be irony at it's best.
]
EJ... you pay to go to a University, and take classes, to earn degree's. Realistically... the only job in philosophy is teaching philosophy, and if your really lucky, after you die, you may become famous.
Philosophers don't TELL people what to do... they examine ideas and suggest what they think makes logical sense... so that people can choose how to behave.
Absolutely EVERYTHING in the human realm is rooted in underlying philosophy...Politics, Religion, Ethics... and yes, even Science, which developed from, and was once considered just a branch of philosophy.
We all have personal philosophies, most based on what we think is common sense, and right...but don't stop nearly often enough to consider if what we think is actually the best way to go. We just keep on Keeping On... living unexamined lives.... :roll: Ethics gives people the chance to look at and consider how they live their lives, and presents them with different ways of thinking and behaving, for them to consider. It makes people THINK... so yeah... attach whatever amount of irony to that, that you see fitting. :D jim
Daryl... thx. you nailed it... task just became impossible, and what could have been a VERY noteworthy achievement for FHF, will now end up VERY ironic. You can NOT have a 'free-for-all' ethical discussion.... there has to be some order. :roll: jim

Retes
Posts: 78
Joined: August 18th, 2011, 7:47 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Retes » October 17th, 2011, 8:06 am

For RobK,

First, I attempt to impose as little interference as I can.

But thats also not the point. If I do interfere like pick them up, I try to limit as it to less harmful situations. Like I mentioned before, do not breach behavior at criticial times. In most cases, I do not touch them.

Now for the point, If I do interfere like picking them out or posing them, or taking data, I realize exactly what I am doing, I weight the risk.

Which is what I think ethics are suppose to allow.

For EJ and Daryl,

listing ethics is not telling you want to do. In this case, interference to the animal. It should draw a line where doing some things can cause harm, on the otherside, doing some things will not cause harm, then the herper can make their choice.

And Daryl, what makes you think I or others do not get tired of you. Frankly, I could care less how you feel about me. This subject is about the animals.

For all of us, ethics is not something we all have to agree on, period. All we have to do is agree on a general area or direction and then DO WHAT WE WANT.

I think in the long run, hmmmmmmm even the short run, the management of this site needs to set a basic guideline as to what is ethical and what is not. Or they can make several sets, and have the members vote on them. Whatever.

But having the members agree, is about like allowing the fox control of the chicken coup.

Hellihooks, you do seem like your studying ethics, as you concern was way way way past the scope of this forum. This is a little specific forum, and our ethics should be confined to our unique area of concern. Not how to live a human beings is a complicate civilized world.

As it is, no body is unethical, because there are no ethics practiced. That makes it easy, yet, many do have ethics and where this forum is leading is causing those to leave.

Heres a good example I witnessed recently. I spend a few days with Mark O'Shea, he personally saw nothing wrong with pinning and holding diamondbacks behind the head, just to take them off the road. Hmmmmmmmmm OK, he had to get his picture taken before the snake was actually taken off the road.

I hope many here find that unethical. Pinning large bodied venomous snakes can be very harmful to the snake, hmmmmmmmm and the herper too. There is no real need for that.

Now Daryl may argue, well if you used snake clamp sticks, you could injure them far more then if you pinned them very very gently. hahahahahahahaha guess what, both are unethical in the sense that both can cause harm to the animal. The ethical decision is to weight the situation and let the dang snake crawl off on its own. Or slide it off. or coax it off, or use the snake stick if a car is coming. But to pin it, well that would be last. Tube it first. Ethics is considering what your doing.

As I said earlier, why does so many people go to Z?

User avatar
Bryan Hamilton
Posts: 1217
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Bryan Hamilton » October 17th, 2011, 8:15 am

Phil Peak wrote:It's unlikely that reptiles are freezing to death under AC that I placed out and I know you only stated this for arguments sake but for clarification purposes I feel compelled to point this out. Now, why are you freezing reptiles for photography? Perhaps you have a good explanation for doing so and for this reason I withhold judgement. I would be interested in hearing why you felt it necessary.
I've cooled reptiles twice for photos that I can recall. Once with a skink and another time a melanistic gartersnake. The animals were not "frozen" but cooled off for ten to fifteen minutes in a chilled cooler. It was purely for the selfish reason that I wanted good photographs. Keep in mind that reptiles in the west can be much more active and difficult to photograph and pose than in the east. Its mostly open canopy out here and substrate temperatures can exceed 100 F even in the shade. That's much different from my experiences in Ohio.

The flip side of cooling, is keeping a reptile corralled for an extended period of time for photographs, until it is exhausted and can't move anymore. I don't think cooling is much different than this more "patient" approach.

My main issue isn't calling into question the practice of cooling or manipulating reptiles for photos. Its calling into question someone’s concern for the animals because you do not agree with them.

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by chad ks » October 17th, 2011, 8:30 am

Daryl Eby wrote:
hellihooks wrote:I resign as moderator.
Thanks for trying! Seriously.

This discussion has become too unwieldy. I supported the idea of breaking it out into separate topics and possibly even a separate sub-forum. Your efforts to start some of those separate topics was helpful. Too bad all those new threads got consolidated back into this monster thread. The odds of converting all this discussion into a workable document just went from unlikely to impossible. Without some means to separate and deal individually with the many different sub-issues, this whole exercise will likely result in more harm than good. Every time we get close to moving forward on one point, three more points pop up and pull us back. Sad! :(
Daryl, I disagree with you. There's nothing sad about it, and this thread should be the one. If points continue to pop up, then good, that's supposed to happen.

User avatar
Phil Peak
Posts: 523
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Phil Peak » October 17th, 2011, 8:52 am

Bryan Hamilton wrote:
Phil Peak wrote:It's unlikely that reptiles are freezing to death under AC that I placed out and I know you only stated this for arguments sake but for clarification purposes I feel compelled to point this out. Now, why are you freezing reptiles for photography? Perhaps you have a good explanation for doing so and for this reason I withhold judgement. I would be interested in hearing why you felt it necessary.
I've cooled reptiles twice for photos that I can recall. Once with a skink and another time a melanistic gartersnake. The animals were not "frozen" but cooled off for ten to fifteen minutes in a chilled cooler. It was purely for the selfish reason that I wanted good photographs. Keep in mind that reptiles in the west can be much more active and difficult to photograph and pose than in the east. Its mostly open canopy out here and substrate temperatures can exceed 100 F even in the shade. That's much different from my experiences in Ohio.

The flip side of cooling, is keeping a reptile corralled for an extended period of time for photographs, until it is exhausted and can't move anymore. I don't think cooling is much different than this more "patient" approach.

My main issue isn't calling into question the practice of cooling or manipulating reptiles for photos. Its calling into question someone’s concern for the animals because you do not agree with them.
Interesting. I could only speculate on the physiological effects of cooling down a warmed up reptile for photographs but, I'd have to think that thermal shock is a real possibility. I have no experience photographing western herps but I can't imagine they would be much more difficult to photograph than crowned snakes, mud snakes or rough greens. There is much evidence to support this with the paucity of top notch "posed" photo's of these snakes on this forum as compared to the numbers of photo's of these species that are presented.

Phil

Retes
Posts: 78
Joined: August 18th, 2011, 7:47 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Retes » October 17th, 2011, 10:53 am

Hi Phil

We do have some species that are difficult to photogragh, right off the top corals are one thats difficult.

We have coachwhips and whipsnakes, but they will on occasion, go cryptic and pose for a in situ shot. Corals, the dang things never stop.

Fortunately, the vast majority of corals encoundered are on the roads. And most are not found during breeding season, usually after that. How many pics of gravid corals have you seen here?

One species thats funny is, Vine snakes. Many herpers chase them down like the snakes are going somewhere. When in fact, all they do is crawl to the nearest bush or tree and POSE up a storm. This is a species where lots of FIELD HERPERS, put them on ice to pose them. Which is sad, Vine snakes are the king of posing. Thats their defensive behavior. They pose.

I think the problem you are having with Bryan is, dismissial of behavior. Many biologist have to dismiss behavior in order to gain data. Just think of the problems it would cause him if he accepted that his actions caused a change in behavior. It would make all their data taken in a disruptive way(pit tags, radios) void and useless(when the data envolves behavior) In a sense, he/they, must dismiss any negative impact.

What is sad is, Bryan attacks you or others instead of questioning his own methods. You do have one huge arguement for Bryan, In your case, the snakes choose and used the AC, on their own accord. In the case of posing or cooling, that is a forced action, the animals did not choose to have their pictures taken or be cooled off.

There is a huge difference between an individual snake picking something for its benefit(your ac) and being bagged, iced, and manipulated.

Retes
Posts: 78
Joined: August 18th, 2011, 7:47 am

Reptile behavior, for Bryan

Post by Retes » October 17th, 2011, 11:16 am

Hi Bryan,
This is a spin off of the ethics thread.

So you cooled some. Big deal. What concerns me is, why do you dismiss the fact that doing that possibly causes harm( harm=change in behavior not benefitual to the animal)(OR, a non voluntery behavior by the individual animal)

Whats funny is, you use a comparison of corralling the animal or somehow forcing the animals to pose, without cooling as if that is not a problem . So cooling is ok as well.

The reality is, manipulating the animal in either way can have an negative impact on its behavior.(routine altering which exposes the animal to danger)

What I find strangely odd is, in all your schooling didn't you take any classes on animal behavior?(ethlogy) and if you did, what the heck did they teach you????????

You should have learned that everything you do is a stimulis that causes a reaction. EVERYTHING. The key here is, how or what does this type stimulis do to the animal in question.

IF you take defensive behaviors, and I surely hope you understand that these animals do have a series of defensive behaviors. IF you list them, what are they?
Lets look at a few.
1. go cryptic, to not move, freeze, blend in, in an effort to go unnoticed.
2. to bluff, hiss, expand, etc, in an effort to appear larger and more imposing, to avoid actual physical contact.

3. to take flight

4.to fight, to bite, musk, constrict, etc.

3 and 4, equal fight or flight, Heck they even taught that back in the fifties. I am sure they understand it better now a days.

These four areas are very simple, we have all seen them.

What is a concern is, what occurs when 1. thru 4. fail, that is, what occurs when the animal survives an attack??? Guess what, that is also behavior and goes hand in hand with these animals.

Simply put, if an individual survives an attack, it must avoid repeating that situation. If numbers 1, 2, or 3, succeed, then the animal has no need to change its behavior.

If the animals is physically abuse, that means that numbers 1 thru 3, failed, what will it do, what can it do?

Now the animal, must utilize other behaviors, like to avoid that situation.

The more extreme the contact, the greater, flight becomes.

Even minor encounters will cause a change in routine. Like simply avoiding that spot of contact. Severe encounters can cause a complete disruption in routine. This exposes the individuals to unknown and unsafe situations. That is, to reinter the selection process it faced as a neonate.

I fully understand, for field biologists to gather infomation is a expedient manner, like with using radios, you must breach these defensive behaviors, what I am questioning is, why do you dismiss behavior?

A huge concern is, how can you study behavior, when you breach that very thing your studying, behavior?

I find it a common problem that biologist dismiss behavior. Its seems they forgot that behavior controls the biology of the animal, it guides it. Yet you breach behavior as if it does not exsist.(to dismiss) This confuses me.

Please understand, its nothing against you personally, You seem like a very nice caring person. This problem is common in field biology.

I guess your taught in school that these animals do not react to a stimulis, you must be taught these animals are windup toys that you can do anything you want to and ITS OK.

Yes by disrupting their behavior, you will obtain data, but what data are you obtaining? that is what I question.

Its kind of that old, Jane Goodall, Diane Fossy, type analogy, they set biology on its ear by observing animals with limited impact or interference to the animal. Which included Using positive stimulis instead of negative stimulis, to observe animal behavior.

This is the same here with folks like Rich G and I, and others, who have observed large populations of long periods of time, without or with limited interference(our physical presense is limited interference)

We see a different animal, then those that capture, manipulate, and disrupt the animals. (i.e. telemetry, pit tag studies) We observe different behavior.

We see these animals with tight repeated routines, predictable behavior, high percentage of reproduction, Often in groups and pairs(for most of the year if not all year) etc.

Pit tagging disrupts this and causes the animals to scatter and form patterns of behavior less based on routine and far less predictable. Installing radios causes a more severe reaction, causing individuals to often completely void all routine and move for days and days, before attempting to reestablish some successful routine. I have been a part of these three methods of study.

And sir, if you do not think these animals have such tight routine, then your not watching this forum. Some of these individuals snakes are so routine, you can set your watch by them.

Again Bryan, its not so much about you personally, I am ranting over the overall approach of biology in the study of reptiles, where its common to dismiss base behavior, in lew of obtaining lots of fast data.

In my desert rat opinion, that approach is screwing the pooch. hahahahahahahaha Yes, you can obtain information, but I question the quality of that information. I do enjoy reading that type of information, but I think you should label those papers, what they do with a radio installed in them. i wonder what you would do is something installed a radio the size of a lunch box inside you? Yea I know, stop being FRANK.

Again, please its not personal, I am hoping you will address these issues and not become defensive like you did on the other thread. Sticking reptiles in a cooler does not make you a bad guy, it just makes you a bit insensitive. Just think, what would you do if something stuck you on ice until you could not run. Then think about the feeling you would get if you physically could not run from a predator. Yup, your just not very sensitive. Cheers

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by -EJ » October 17th, 2011, 11:24 am

Hell... I was just talkin' out my a$$ again... (Daryl... thanks for the giggle... again)

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Reptile behavior, for Bryan

Post by justinm » October 17th, 2011, 11:34 am

Wasn't there already a thread that nobody cared about (this one viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8296&start=325 )? Can't you just put it there, or wouldn't your ego let you? ugh some of you guys who want to argue are really pissing in my cereal.

User avatar
Bryan Hamilton
Posts: 1217
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Bryan Hamilton » October 17th, 2011, 11:55 am

Retes wrote:What is sad is, Bryan attacks you or others instead of questioning his own methods. You do have one huge arguement for Bryan, In your case, the snakes choose and used the AC, on their own accord. In the case of posing or cooling, that is a forced action, the animals did not choose to have their pictures taken or be cooled off.
Frank,

I wasn't attacking Phil. I was attacking the idea that if someone engages in an action and someone else disagrees with that action, its OK to question that person's commitment to the animals.

teter247
Posts: 40
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 8:12 am

Re: Reptile behavior, for Bryan

Post by teter247 » October 17th, 2011, 12:16 pm

This is a spin off of the ethics thread.
Spin offs are never as good as the original. Try watching an episode of The Cleveland Show.
I find it a common problem that biologist dismiss behavior. Its seems they forgot that behavior controls the biology of the animal, it guides it. Yet you breach behavior as if it does not exsist.(to dismiss) This confuses me.
First of all, as usual your arguments are completely ass backwards. It is not the behavior that controls the biology of the animal, it is the biology that controls the behavior of the animal. The biology guides the behavior. We are learning more and more every day about genetic traits that dictate behavioral tendencies within an organism. If you want to talk about organismal behavioral patterns, you must first identify the drivers to those behavioral patterns. Granted some of them may be learned, but even the propensity to learn behaviors has a genetic basis.

Also, what the hell kind of biologists are you talking to? You would be HARD pressed to find an ecologist, field biologist, or any of the like that IGNORES animal behavior! Once again, I think you need to spend a little bit more time reading actual scientific journals (There's a few whose sole purpose is the study of animal behavior even...I would start there), and a little less time affecting the natural behaviors of your backyard coachwhips through pseudoscientific feeding regimens.

TH

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 678
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Scott Waters » October 17th, 2011, 12:22 pm

chad ks wrote:
Daryl Eby wrote:
hellihooks wrote:I resign as moderator.
Thanks for trying! Seriously.

This discussion has become too unwieldy. I supported the idea of breaking it out into separate topics and possibly even a separate sub-forum. Your efforts to start some of those separate topics was helpful. Too bad all those new threads got consolidated back into this monster thread. The odds of converting all this discussion into a workable document just went from unlikely to impossible. Without some means to separate and deal individually with the many different sub-issues, this whole exercise will likely result in more harm than good. Every time we get close to moving forward on one point, three more points pop up and pull us back. Sad! :(
Daryl, I disagree with you. There's nothing sad about it, and this thread should be the one. If points continue to pop up, then good, that's supposed to happen.
LOL. Nothing is impossible, especially when it comes to FHF. This community has proven that many times over. Chad is right, this venting is a good thing. And sure, there will come a time to begin formatting some of these things.

scott

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Reptile behavior, for Bryan

Post by -EJ » October 17th, 2011, 12:37 pm

More insightful input. If you actually read through this thread I does show you the closness of this forum. To me it's kind of interesting.

Oh... ego... ehhh... I'll leave that alone.
justinm wrote:Wasn't there already a thread that nobody cared about (this one viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8296&start=325 )? Can't you just put it there, or wouldn't your ego let you? ugh some of you guys who want to argue are really pissing in my cereal.

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by justinm » October 17th, 2011, 12:58 pm

EJ,

It's often helpful to proofread when trying to sound sage. Your lack of complete sentences and herp related content still astound me.

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by -EJ » October 17th, 2011, 1:21 pm

I really hope you're not that anal in real life... if you are... it's going to bite you in the arse.

As long as I convey my message... does it really matter how it is conveyed?

I love you man...
justinm wrote:EJ,

It's often helpful to proofread when trying to sound sage. Your lack of complete sentences and herp related content still astound me.

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by hellihooks » October 17th, 2011, 2:34 pm

Frank,
I'm sure you have a pretty full plate right now (defending your incoherencies) but I have a funny story for you. Josh (geckoguy) and I were cruisen for his lifer shovelnose several months ago, and we decided to chase a thunderstorm through a certain mountain range. We missed the actual downpour, but the dirt road was big puddle after puddle, and for a while, a running stream, and the temps dropped from 90 to 68.... :shock: We saw NOTHING until we got clear of the clouds and back to the desert proper, and the temps had climbed back up to 88-90. I remember remarking to Josh: "Wow... God sure cooled that place down!" :roll: :lol: :lol: :D jim

RobK

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by RobK » October 17th, 2011, 2:40 pm

-EJ wrote:As long as I convey my message... does it really matter how it is conveyed?
Yes, it does matter "how it's conveyed" if you want your message to have its intended impact.

User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by VanAR » October 17th, 2011, 2:51 pm

I'm sitting out of most of this conversation (for now), but wanted to chime in on this:
As long as I convey my message... does it really matter how it is conveyed?
I don't remember reading the post to which this refers (and I'm not picking specifically on EJ), but it absolutely matters how you convey a message, precisely because if you don't convey it in a manner that is understandable, the message is NOT conveyed.

Communications 101- how you communicate affects the ability of your intended audience to understand the message. Its one of the biggest problems I have with a number of the more prolific posters on this thread. I'm not naming names, but some of your posts are EXTREMELY hard to understand, and I'd wager that at least part of the reason why people disagree with you so much is because they can't understand what you were trying to say in the first place.

Its not the audience's job to decipher your hieroglyphics- its the communicator's!

Van

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by -EJ » October 17th, 2011, 3:03 pm

Give that a little thought. If there is an error... the anal retentive will pay attention... yet another group has taken notice.

In reality... there was no intent. I wrote what I did and didn't give much thought as to the grammar.

The intent was to get attention...
RobK wrote:
-EJ wrote:As long as I convey my message... does it really matter how it is conveyed?
Yes, it does matter "how it's conveyed" if you want your message to have its intended impact.

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by -EJ » October 17th, 2011, 3:12 pm

Key word... understandable. Does it really matter how it is spelled or placed in a sentence? I think most if not all understood even though it was not grammatically correct.

I recently submitted an article to a magizine. It would seem that much of it was not grammaticly correct. It was changed... and change the whole context of the article.

Last point... yea... I write the way I speak. Those that read my writings seem to like this... regardless if it is grammaticly correct. I do this because this is what I like to read.
VanAR wrote:I'm sitting out of most of this conversation (for now), but wanted to chime in on this:
As long as I convey my message... does it really matter how it is conveyed?
I don't remember reading the post to which this refers (and I'm not picking specifically on EJ), but it absolutely matters how you convey a message, precisely because if you don't convey it in a manner that is understandable, the message is NOT conveyed.

Communications 101- how you communicate affects the ability of your intended audience to understand the message. Its one of the biggest problems I have with a number of the more prolific posters on this thread. I'm not naming names, but some of your posts are EXTREMELY hard to understand, and I'd wager that at least part of the reason why people disagree with you so much is because they can't understand what you were trying to say in the first place.

Its not the audience's job to decipher your hieroglyphics- its the communicator's!

Van

User avatar
Bryan Hamilton
Posts: 1217
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Bryan Hamilton » October 17th, 2011, 3:21 pm

Hi Frank,

I’m not taking your posts personally, even though you’ve called me out by name….

I can see you are very frustrated with field biology and me in particular. I'm not arguing that studies can have negative effects on their subjects. Behavioral studies are particularly sensitive to effects of the observer on their subject.

How do you know what you are observing is "natural"? Simply observing the system has an impact. We can agree on that. Your behavioral questions are likely far more sensitive to observer effects than are my questions, which are related to survival, reproduction, feeding, and habitat utilization. I realize that the behavior of individual animals affects these variables. But why stop at individual behavior? Why not take things down to the physiological or biochemical level? At some point you have to abandon the reductionist approach to address the questions of interest.

We're obviously not going to agree on methods. Your methods as well as mine are flawed. That’s part of science. I’ve taken the time to get the approval of animal care use committees for my research and am using standardized, peer reviewed protocols to address my research questions. I hear what you’re saying about radio transmitters and PIT tags and I disagree with most of it. I’m always open to new methodologies though.

From what I can tell you watch snakes (do you still feed them?) and document their behavior. That’s cool. I’m doing something different. Maybe you can do a post on you research and give me a little more perspective on what you’re doing?

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by hellihooks » October 17th, 2011, 5:58 pm

-EJ wrote:Key word... understandable. Does it really matter how it is spelled or placed in a sentence? I think most if not all understood even though it was not grammatically correct.

I recently submitted an article to a magizine. It would seem that much of it was not grammaticly correct. It was changed... and change the whole context of the article.

Last point... yea... I write the way I speak. Those that read my writings seem to like this... regardless if it is grammaticly correct. I do this because this is what I like to read.
VanAR wrote:I'm sitting out of most of this conversation (for now), but wanted to chime in on this:
As long as I convey my message... does it really matter how it is conveyed?
I don't remember reading the post to which this refers (and I'm not picking specifically on EJ), but it absolutely matters how you convey a message, precisely because if you don't convey it in a manner that is understandable, the message is NOT conveyed.

Communications 101- how you communicate affects the ability of your intended audience to understand the message. Its one of the biggest problems I have with a number of the more prolific posters on this thread. I'm not naming names, but some of your posts are EXTREMELY hard to understand, and I'd wager that at least part of the reason why people disagree with you so much is because they can't understand what you were trying to say in the first place.

Its not the audience's job to decipher your hieroglyphics- its the communicator's!

Van
I thought he was talking bout me... :roll: :lol: Which is pretty damn funny, when you think about it... :lol: :lol: jim
Either way Van... point taken.

Retes
Posts: 78
Joined: August 18th, 2011, 7:47 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Retes » October 17th, 2011, 6:45 pm

Hi Bryan , and thank you for your nice reply.

I am not frustrated with you in the least, I have a gut feeling your a good guy. But even good guys have to look the other way at times.

I am frustrated with the past methods and PEER baloney. hahahahahahaha Lately there are some and more will follow that are actually working in these areas.

I am not sure what you think I do, I have been on field studies, for a very long time. Mostly rattlesnake, with Dave Barker, and Hugh McCrystal, Bern Tryon, etc. Even thought I am a kingsnake, turned varanid specialist. In the field we do pretty much what you do.

In the field, I am the dog, I find the animals, hahahahahahaha Thats my job.

We have been doing a longterm Willard/lep tag and recapture study for over 18 years.

I did watch that site for a dozen years before that. Which gave me a little perspective on long term changes.

I have also been doing longterm observation on Diamondbacks and Gilas. Some pairs have be observed for over 32 years(gilas) and 22 years(diamondbacks)

At home, I do watch animals, this is were I have manned, based on the falconry term, many reptiles. Some diamondbacks have been coming in for 8 years, the coachwhips you have seen here, One was here last week, and Several spinys that stayed with me up to 8 years.

ALso three generations of roadrunners PESTER ME to no end.

THese animals teach me how they can manipulate their "normal" defensive behaviors to include a predator, me.

While they do not truely trust you, they do allow you in their behavioral circle. The roadrunners actually take me to their nests to feed their young.

What have I learned, well, all these animals teach others of their kind to use me, They learn by watching eachother. That includes the reptiles.

Oddly, all the longterm individuals are females. Males do not meed me, hahahahahahahahaha

Doing this has allowed me to observe breeding copulation and nesting. Which otherwise would have been difficult.

These animals come and go and at times are gone for over a year, and then return and "remember" exactly where and when do utilize me. They all are reluctant around other humans. And all are site specific. that is, away from certain areas, they are not so trusting.

of interest, the lizards and birds, seek me out, just to hang out, or entertain themselves. They appear to like to just be around and watch. The snakes not so much, they are more task driven.

The key with all these animals is, do not breach their defences. In otherwords, respect their behavior.

Last night a female atrox fed on three mice. As a neonate, she fed daily, now as an adult, she feeds in the spring and late fall. And is missing during reproduction.

Anyway, your reply was a bit like someone else that stated dirtbikes effect them dozers, all manner of other things so its Ok if I do too. Only your telling yourself that even the presense of your smell effects them, so picking them up and cutting them open is OK.

I think I have stated two important things, One, breaking their defensive behaviors should be avoided. And two, doing that can negatively effect their survival rate by causing them to avoid set routines. That is, the level we should be concerned with is where we cause disruption to a successful routine.

consider, with rattlesnakes, they utilize winter sites, breeding sites, rookerie, etc. They use them because they are successful doing so. Causing them to avoid those sites cannot be benefitual. CAN IT?

Consider, this site is NOT a science lab, we should set our area of ethics somewhere, shouldn't we. So ethically we should set it around the area where harm can come from our actions.

I think everyone is so heated for several reasons, one is, they somehow think they have to obey these ethics as if they are Law. correct me if I am wrong, a good percentage of folks BREAK THE LAW. You do not have to strictly obey ethics, but ethically, you could. Cheers

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by hellihooks » October 17th, 2011, 7:25 pm

Frank,
I have long respected your work in the field, but you have at best a rudimentary understanding of what ethics actually is. But that's ok... nobody can know everything, but please read my explaination of ethics, addressed to EJ.
As a bio psych student (neurophysiology) I would call BS on some of the claims you've made concerning reptile and avian cognitive abilities, but as a student of environmental ethics, I have been recently(several years) been focusing on a groundswell of scientific discoveries revealing higher abstract abilities in many Animals... from octopi to birds to 'lower' mammals, such as squirrels.
While reptile brains are 'less-developed', I have to admit I have seen what SEEMS to be a recognition, and behavioral repetition that approaches cognitive remembering, in some snakes and lizards and torts, (from desert to galops) I have worked with.
In fact... I have to admit that I rely upon a crotes reluctance to re-visit an area where they have had even one unsettling interaction with a human (me) when doing Crote relocations. I move them to a different part of their home range, (near as I can tell) and have yet to have one return to the capture site... :shock:
BTW... there is a new program on Nature, about crows passing down info, bout the people who tagged them, to their offspring. The offspring clearly recognized and followed the researchers... having never seen them before... :shock: jim

PS... anybody catch the GREAT pun I slipped in there... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3634
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by jonathan » October 17th, 2011, 11:07 pm

I wanted to summarize this very long thread, and ask what we could do from here to get to something constructive.

Here's what I've seen so far:

Chad started out with a great post. Read it. A number of people chimed in to support these issues being addressed.



Collecting

Psyon, BChambers, Jim, Brandon D., Kevin, and Mel support legal recreational collecting, but not commercial collecting. Kris and Chad Lane have no problem with legal collection, and Owen has no problem with it as long as it's not in his spots. Chris said that it’s hard to tell younger herpers not to collect when all the old-timers did it when they were young, and he said he doesn’t have issues with the collection of a specimen or two. Gerry generally supported controlled harvests but not uncontrolled harvests. JDM supported both personal and commercial collecting.

Van felt collecting was a debate of the past because most are no longer vocal on it. DragonJCO agreed. BChambers thought the personal collecting issue had become a “live and let live” subject, while commercial collecting was anathema to most.

Daryl suggested that collection is helpful in cases of habitat destruction, while Gerry and Bob thought we should be focusing more on stopping the habitat destruction. Paul White felt that focusing on habitat destruction was a losing cause in the long run, and we should focus on educating people on snakes and overcoming fears to help with first steps first. Kent and Bob thought we should fight on, even if lose sometimes. Lashinala2 was anti-development as well. Brandon D thought habitat protection should take priority.

There was a huge argument starting on page 5 over whether the term “field herping” involved collection or not, and the argument ended up extending into several additional threads that were long in their own right. Too much to summarize, but you can read the threads.



How we influence laws and regulations

BChambers thought laws should be data-based (with help from NAFHA), and in the absence of data should be conservative but reasonable. Kris supported data-based legislation, is wary of the unintended consequences of too many laws, and cautiously supported the regulation of collection until such data exists. Owen agreed with Kris. Jonathan supported data-based regulations and hadn’t seen any shift in NAFHA’s herpers rights/conservation focus. He also felt that NAFHA is having an influence on policy in California and gave examples. Jim referred to Article II of the NAFHA bylaws which addressed that NAFHA is about getting better data for both purposes of herper’s rights and conservation. Frank feels laws on non-profitable wildlife are politically motivated and have nothing to do with conservation. Vince supported herpers acting to conserve habitat and reform laws. JDM felt herp populations should be managed for use, not just protected. Jimi and others distinguished between conservation and preservation, says that policy should be data-based and developed by managers, not lawmakers. Several members affirmed Jimi’s contributions.



Sharing information online

Diamondback Dave saw a balance necessary in the sharing of information online, and wants more restrictions on who can access this shared data. Chad Lane now waits some time before posting trips online and shares many of the same thoughts as DBDave. Gerry thought sharing information is minimally impactful and probably does more good than harm. Brandon D thinks localities shouldn’t be posted too specifically but sharing is otherwise okay. Aaron said that he’s on the cautious side of posting but doesn’t support an elite forum. EJ and stlouisdude, were less worried about sharing information online, Daryl was more worried



Disturbing herps

Chad Lane had seen some snakes reappear at the same spot after disturbance, and some not. He felt that it depends on species and individuals. Van and BChambers felt that the hands-off policy has more to do with “preservation” than “conservation”. Frank said that most people here are ignorant of ethology, and feels that herps are more effected by our actions than we think. He supported some sort of herper enjoyment/herp middle ground.

There is way more discussion on this issue on pages 8 through 15, but there was too much for me to summarize.



Cooling herps

Jim felt cooling herps was questionable. Phil had never heard of it and didn't like it. Bryan admitted to doing it. Frank says it’s common. Daryl has done it and thinks it’s okay if the cooling is moderate.



Overall ethics list

El Bufo Grande, Jonathan, Jeremiah Easter, Joey, Jimi, Chris, and Gary supported making an ethics list. Gerry thought it was a great idea but doubted it would come to fruition.

Gary posted his own ethics list from californiaherps.com as well as Bill Love’s “herper etiquette”. Ribbit, Kent, Jeremiah, Van, Jonathan, PNWHerper and Jim supported Gary’s californiaherps.com page. Frank and Gerry didn’t support Gary’s list. Chad thought it needed changes.

Chad summarized a list of points based on the American Birding Association’s ethics format. It can be found on the bottom of page 6. Daryl and JDM suggested some edits on page 8. PNWherper praised it as well.

Gerald said that coming to a consensus on an ethics list is difficult, then showed what the Southwestern Herp Society had adopted. Chris suggested making ethical guidelines with a “degree of concurrence” on each one based on forum polls. Frank suggested drafting 5 people to write the ethics guidelines. He also wants more debate on actual specifics of herping ethics. Several people suggested an ethics forum, which was vetoed by Scott.




There were other things I left out, either because they were just fighting or because not many people picked up on the theme (like Jim's archetypes). There's also a discussion of the "are people more important than wildlife" question on pages 3 through 6. You can read the thread if you want to see everything. Where do we go from here?

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 678
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Scott Waters » October 18th, 2011, 1:00 am

Well done! I am producing a Herp Nation LIVE (hosted by Dan Krull) segment on this topic. Anyone who wishes to be in the roundtable discussion (conference call), email me....

scottwaters at herpnation.com

scott

User avatar
Kent VanSooy
Posts: 1100
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kent VanSooy » October 18th, 2011, 4:33 am

Nice Jonathan! Exactly what is need here, IMHO.

User avatar
Phil Peak
Posts: 523
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Phil Peak » October 18th, 2011, 7:01 am

-EJ wrote: I recently submitted an article to a magizine. It would seem that much of it was not grammaticly correct. It was changed... and change the whole context of the article.
Exactly! What you should take from this experience is the importance of self editing. No author should allow his or her work to be compromised simply because they failed to present an acceptable product.

Phil

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by hellihooks » October 18th, 2011, 7:03 am

Get people to agree to tackle one subject at a time, until some agreement is reached, before bring up the next topic? :thumb: Nice summary Jonathan... very diplomatic. :) jim

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Daryl Eby » October 18th, 2011, 7:14 am

Thanks for the summary Jonathan. I could nit pic, but doubt I could have done better. Condensing 15 pages of windbaggery down to a single concise post is quite a feat.

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3634
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by jonathan » October 18th, 2011, 7:23 am

Jim - I agree. One topic at a time is good. I'm not sure about a single moderator though. The FHF (in my experience) is a pretty free-flowing place, and threads are moderated quite loosely. That fits the personality of herpers in my experience. If we get progress, it's going to have to happen collaboratively/organically.

And you're right Daryl, there are things in my own post I would nitpik too. I know a couple times I lumped some opinions together and oversummarized, and I probably favored the things I prioritized. I also left out some things, and got lazier and lazier as I got deeper into the thread. Hopefully anything really vital I left out will continue to be read and reiterated on the thread.

JDM
Posts: 49
Joined: August 17th, 2011, 12:11 pm
Location: The Herping Holy Land (Arizona)

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by JDM » October 18th, 2011, 7:43 am

A good and much needed summary, jonathan.

User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3331
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Don Becker » October 18th, 2011, 7:45 am

Jim referred to Article II of the NAFHA bylaws which addressed that NAFHA is about getting better data for both purposes of herper’s rights and conservation.
I talked with Chad about this on the phone briefly last night. I am of the opinion that if our goal is to collect data, that we can not also advocate for laws to be changed one way or the other based on that data. People will think we have a reason to skew our data our own favor. I hope that our data is used to make the right decisions, but I think if we ourselves are advocating either way for the laws, that people could see us entering data with prejudice. If we wanted a species protected, what would stop anyone from withholding data. If we wanted something unprotected, what stops anyone from forging data to make it look more abundant?

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by -EJ » October 18th, 2011, 8:08 am

Which is why you did not see it in print. It seems that there are many who do see my work as acceptable. Next book due out in Jan/Feb.

2 books in print... quite a few articles in Reptiles.

Phil Peak wrote:
-EJ wrote: I recently submitted an article to a magizine. It would seem that much of it was not grammaticly correct. It was changed... and change the whole context of the article.
Exactly! What you should take from this experience is the importance of self editing. No author should allow his or her work to be compromised simply because they failed to present an acceptable product.

Phil

User avatar
Phil Peak
Posts: 523
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Phil Peak » October 18th, 2011, 9:29 am

-EJ wrote:Which is why you did not see it in print. It seems that there are many who do see my work as acceptable. Next book due out in Jan/Feb.

2 books in print... quite a few articles in Reptiles.

Phil Peak wrote:
-EJ wrote: I recently submitted an article to a magizine. It would seem that much of it was not grammaticly correct. It was changed... and change the whole context of the article.
Exactly! What you should take from this experience is the importance of self editing. No author should allow his or her work to be compromised simply because they failed to present an acceptable product.

Phil
My point is this EJ - Most authors are unwilling to allow others to edit their work to the extent that it is no longer their thoughts and words. If by necessity the editing is so heavy that the entire context is changed, you should recognize this as a problem. I'm not trying to be critical but rather constructive by bringing this to your attention. When we write books and articles it is important to us that it is our words, thoughts and concepts. Anything less should be considered unacceptable IMO.

Phil

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by -EJ » October 18th, 2011, 9:33 am

Spot on... thank you.
Phil Peak wrote:
-EJ wrote:Which is why you did not see it in print. It seems that there are many who do see my work as acceptable. Next book due out in Jan/Feb.

2 books in print... quite a few articles in Reptiles.


Exactly! What you should take from this experience is the importance of self editing. No author should allow his or her work to be compromised simply because they failed to present an acceptable product.

Phil
My point is this EJ - Most authors are unwilling to allow others to edit their work to the extent that it is no longer their thoughts and words. If by necessity the editing is so heavy that the entire context is changed, you should recognize this as a problem. I'm not trying to be critical but rather constructive by bringing this to your attention. When we write books and articles it is important to us that it is our words, thoughts and concepts. Anything less should be considered unacceptable IMO.

Phil[/quote]

Post Reply