Name that snake...

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-EJ
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Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 10:29 am

Before I add information... I'd like to know some opinions...
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El Bufo Grande
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by El Bufo Grande » October 27th, 2011, 11:14 am

Looks like a Grey Rat Snake.

Retes
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by Retes » October 27th, 2011, 11:22 am

Of course blackrats often keep that neotinic pattern, but if I was to guess and this would be breaking my dementia. Not early onset, I am already old.

That would be a grey rat from east and south of panhandle area, and north of otter creek on the east coast of Fla.

Or at least I saw some that looked like that there.

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 11:49 am

I wanted to add the snake is over 2ft long... so that is probably it's adult pattern. My friend tells me that as a juvenile it was black and yellow. She so regrets not getting photos a few years ago.

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monklet
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by monklet » October 27th, 2011, 12:27 pm

El Bufo Grande wrote:Looks like a Grey Rat Snake.
I agree, but dude, your avatar is creeping me out.

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 12:33 pm

You should talk but I suspect that there is a little irony in you comment.

I'm actually waiting for Berkeley to chime in before offering further info.
monklet wrote:
El Bufo Grande wrote:Looks like a Grey Rat Snake.
I agree, but dude, your avatar is creeping me out.

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Dell Despain
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by Dell Despain » October 27th, 2011, 1:09 pm

hmmm... An Indigo, or Mexican Black King snake? ;)

-Dell

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 1:13 pm

Same thing... I was hoping for an 'expert' to chime in.
Dell Despain wrote:hmmm... An Indigo, or Mexican Black King snake? ;)

-Dell

joecop
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by joecop » October 27th, 2011, 1:20 pm

Gulf hammock rat maybe?

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 1:35 pm

I've caught those... very similar... actually identicle... but that's not it based on where it was found.
joecop wrote:Gulf hammock rat maybe?

roadhunter
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by roadhunter » October 27th, 2011, 1:46 pm

:thumb: it's a gulf hammock, there is a overlap range somewhat and snakes do not stop at county lines. looks like a nice gulf hammock at that!

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MHollanders
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by MHollanders » October 27th, 2011, 1:46 pm

obsoleta

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Dell Despain
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by Dell Despain » October 27th, 2011, 1:55 pm

-EJ wrote:Same thing... I was hoping for an 'expert' to chime in.
Ah, that's what I thought.... trolling.

-Dell

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VanAR
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by VanAR » October 27th, 2011, 2:00 pm

obsoleta
This! :lol:

Subspecies depends a lot on where it is from. It looks a lot like a classic grey rat from the panhandle or GA/AL, but the colors are off just enough that I could see it could being one of those weird western KY/TN animals, one of the intergrades in the weird are from GA to NC, or even a Texas/LA Texas rat.

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 2:08 pm

In a way it is kinda... I have a unique opportunity to put a special collection of people to the test.

It is trolling... how many others have done the same thing.

Wait... I haven't seen a response from you yet... to the topic.
Dell Despain wrote:
-EJ wrote:Same thing... I was hoping for an 'expert' to chime in.
Ah, that's what I thought.... trolling.

-Dell

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 2:13 pm

Isn't a Grey Rat an obsoleta?

Believe it or not this post adds a huge amount of input. Yea... this is what I was looking for. Thanks.
VanAR wrote:
obsoleta
This! :lol:

Subspecies depends a lot on where it is from. It looks a lot like a classic grey rat from the panhandle or GA/AL, but the colors are off just enough that I could see it could being one of those weird western KY/TN animals, one of the intergrades in the weird are from GA to NC, or even a Texas/LA Texas rat.

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chrish
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by chrish » October 27th, 2011, 2:27 pm

I've seen "Black Rats" from along the Savannah River in South Carolina and into GA that looked just like that.

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VanAR
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by VanAR » October 27th, 2011, 2:32 pm

Isn't a Grey Rat an obsoleta?
Yeah, I put the LOL there because it is a correct answer but it seemed you were wanting something more specific (I may be wrong).

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MHollanders
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by MHollanders » October 27th, 2011, 2:40 pm

I guess I'm just kind of curious why it matters. Wherever that snake came from, it's an obsoleta, and if it doesn't look like a typical rat snake from that region, so what?

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 27th, 2011, 2:45 pm

This kind of falls into the line of a 'discussion' I'm involved with on another forum... it actually follows the next question... who recognises 'subspecies'? It seems most taxonomists are split.
MHollanders wrote:I guess I'm just kind of curious why it matters. Wherever that snake came from, it's an obsoleta, and if it doesn't look like a typical rat snake from that region, so what?

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M Wolverton
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by M Wolverton » October 27th, 2011, 5:37 pm

Pantherophis lechis.

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JakeScott
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by JakeScott » October 27th, 2011, 7:04 pm

Looks like the average Osceola NF area "intergrade" to me. Yellow and gray combo. As far as typical "Gulf Hammock", I don't see it. The line looks discontinuous dorsally, where as in the more typical forms the line connects the blotches throughout. Granted, if you don't subscribe to any of, it's simply Pantherophis obsoletus.

-Jake Scott

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MHollanders
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by MHollanders » October 27th, 2011, 7:06 pm

Whether someone recognizes subspecies or not isn't relevant. They're not a true taxonomic unit like a species, merely geographic variation within a species.

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Berkeley Boone
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by Berkeley Boone » October 28th, 2011, 11:06 am

Hey Ed-
Since you were waiting for my respsonse- it's obsoleta. I tend to agree with Jake Scott- it looks like one of the intergrade rats to me. If I had to pick one to call it though, I would go with Gray rat.

Just my thoughts!
--Berkeley

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cachoron
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by cachoron » October 28th, 2011, 11:37 am

Dell Despain wrote:hmmm... An Indigo, or Mexican Black King snake? ;)

-Dell
LOL :beer:

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JakeScott
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by JakeScott » October 28th, 2011, 6:55 pm

That's true, Matthijs...in a way. I wasn't saying that it was anything other than the Eastern Clade. However I still call them by their separate subspecies, even though they do not have distinct genealogies. Why? Because I can. Is it bad practice for me to do so? Or is it bad practice to use Mitochondrial DNA to distinguish a species?
I guess what I was trying to convey in my comment was that if you found this particular snake in Texas, or in Massachusetts, you are going to be blown away. To me, a regional morphism is important.

-Jake Scott

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MHollanders
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by MHollanders » October 28th, 2011, 7:08 pm

Jake, I was actually referring to EJ. I too recognize subspecies and like to see regional variation and think it's, what's the word, fun (?) to see the different animals. However, I don't think that posting a rat snake is beneficial to leading a debate about subspecies ;)

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JakeScott
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by JakeScott » October 29th, 2011, 3:55 am

Well...I think we agree. haha. And I totally understand what you're saying. The more subspecies we find, the more we can knock off our list. :D

-Jake

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 30th, 2011, 9:01 am

I posted this because I found it unusual considering the region in which it was found. I also thought it would be fun to see how the 'experts' could look at that animal and say 'yup... that came from...'. You can call that trolling in a way but I don't see the difference between this discussion and the one about the Indigo and Black king.

As to introducing the added discussion of species and subspecies... my appologies to the anal retentive... I think it was exceptionally relevant to the topic in this particular case. It would seem the term was used for the proper communication when talking about populations that might be considered species but not quite. This is why I introduced it and why it seems like many were kind of affraid to use the term. For those that did use the term it helped me understand why the animal looked so different
(I was surprised that Ernst Mayr is given credit for the term of subspecies).

Another thing I learned from this session of 'trolling' (aside from the control issues of the anal retentive) is how popular natural intergrades are. The best reference I found that helped me was Snakes of the Southeast. Until this discussion I don't know if I ever even opened it but was surprised to find the range maps very helpful.

The snake was found on the border of Carroll and Douglas counties about 20 miles south of I20. The Black RatSnakes that are found in the surrounding area look like relatively typical Black Ratsnakes. It would seem that the area the snake was found is surprisingly listed as an area where a 3 way intergrade occurs. The intergrade is a cross between the Grey Ratsnake x Black Ratsnake x Yellow Ratsnake.

For those of you who think I wasted your time 'trolling'... get over it... for those of you who found this as interesting as I did... thank you for your input. I learned a good deal from it.

BradB
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by BradB » October 31st, 2011, 10:23 am

I've found black rats or greys or whatever that look like that about 40 miles North of Downtown Atlanta. That one looks almost identical to those that I have seen in that given area.

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-EJ
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by -EJ » October 31st, 2011, 10:37 am

Atlanta does fall in the band that Gibbons and Dorcas shows in the book Snakes of the Southeast.
BradB wrote:I've found black rats or greys or whatever that look like that about 40 miles North of Downtown Atlanta. That one looks almost identical to those that I have seen in that given area.

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Jimmy_77
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Re: Name that snake...

Post by Jimmy_77 » October 31st, 2011, 11:51 am

Pantherophis obsoletus

A ratsnake that is grey/black

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