Hey forum, I've already learned my lesson and been pretty well attacked for my first post being about hellbender locales, so I won't go any farther than is safe here. I can only give you my word as a herper that I have never and will never intend on harming or collecting a herp, especially a sensitive or rare species, my intent is only to photograph. I hope that is enough to make this a safe conversation, but I understand that trust can only go so far on the internet.
Anyway, my dad and I are hopping on the bandwagon and planning an early May trip to AZ next year. I've done a fair bit of research to pinpoint general locales for most of my target species, and since most of which don't inhabit terribly restricted ranges, it wasn't that hard. However, I have recently caught the Crotalus bug, and will be undertaking canebrake tracking in VA as my undergrad research project/Masters thesis when they wake up next year. This means, of course, that I'd die to see a willardi! And that's where it gets difficult...
I purchased Rattlesnakes of the US and Canada by Manny Rubio (the one with a willardi on the front) and read it cover to cover, and seen a good number of them in FHF posts. The book even calls them the rarest rattlesnake in the US. It gives about as much info on willardi that you could ask for in one place, but if I may, I'll take the chance and dare to ask here - and locales are not what I'm asking for!! Just general techniques of spotting them, microhabitats, elevation, time of day/year...
I perfectly understand if this is too much or too sensitive to ask, and I certainly respect and admire them enough to tell some random punk on the internet to find them on his own, if I actually had the experience to speak from. Any info is much appreciated, and I again want to emphasize my admiration for these spectacular crotes. I will not hesitate to drop the topic if asked, or even delete my own post.
Is there a safe way to ask?
Moderator: Scott Waters
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- Posts: 523
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- Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
I see why you are, but no need to tip-toe this much. People will either offer to help you out or have nothing to say Ya, of course, when do people never have anything to say on the internet ~! Usually it just takes some posts telling the story of what you've been finding and letting people get to know you. Of course you can also jump into a 20 page thread; say like on ethics or something
I wish I had something more solid to offer, but I just soak up all the info on the spot I"m visiting, and usually end up with a pretty sweet trip out of it. If I miss out on a lifer, then that's just more reason to head back another year. Usually you get more help the second or third time 'round or as you hang out here more regularly.
And because a post just sucks without pictures, here's a C.viridis for you. It ain't a willardi pic because I havn't traveled that far south before
I wish I had something more solid to offer, but I just soak up all the info on the spot I"m visiting, and usually end up with a pretty sweet trip out of it. If I miss out on a lifer, then that's just more reason to head back another year. Usually you get more help the second or third time 'round or as you hang out here more regularly.
And because a post just sucks without pictures, here's a C.viridis for you. It ain't a willardi pic because I havn't traveled that far south before
- TNWJackson
- Posts: 277
- Joined: June 22nd, 2010, 10:48 pm
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
I'm not from the US, I've never been to Arizona and I've never seen a wild rattlesnake. For me though, when I've wanted to find a new (to me) species of snake, I've found the best thing to do is to read up on their biology as much as I can and then go to suitable habitat within their range and hope for the best. Even if you don't see your (rare) target species, you're sure to see a bunch of other cool stuff which makes it all worthwhile. It looks like you've already started researching your species, and you have until May to read a heap more.
A quick search tells me that there is a paper called "Foraging ecology of the threatened New Mexico ridge-nosed rattlesnake (Crotalus willardi obscurus)." in the book Biology of the Vipers...sounds like it might be helpful to you. I also found (in my one minute of searching) that about a dozen papers on willardi ecology have been published in Herpetological Review (http://www.ssarherps.org/pages/HRinfo.php) in the past. Your next step then could be to either buy the back issues of HR in which those papers were published, or dig up the email addresses (often publicly available) of the authors and contact them directly.
Obviously it's nice to have friends who can advise you on specific spots, but that's not always possible if none of your mates have seen the species you're after. As for forums like this one, you might have more luck PM'ing some of the guys who've recently posted pictures of willardi and introducing yourself, rather than posting on the main board and either expecting them to post their advice here for all the world to see, or expecting them to PM you with the specific information.
Bear in mind of course that I've never seen a wild rattlesnake, so you may find all of the above information to be less than helpful .
edit: I just read that posts suck without pictures, so here's a Popeia popeiorum...not a willardi, I've never seen one of those before (I may have mentioned this previously):
A quick search tells me that there is a paper called "Foraging ecology of the threatened New Mexico ridge-nosed rattlesnake (Crotalus willardi obscurus)." in the book Biology of the Vipers...sounds like it might be helpful to you. I also found (in my one minute of searching) that about a dozen papers on willardi ecology have been published in Herpetological Review (http://www.ssarherps.org/pages/HRinfo.php) in the past. Your next step then could be to either buy the back issues of HR in which those papers were published, or dig up the email addresses (often publicly available) of the authors and contact them directly.
Obviously it's nice to have friends who can advise you on specific spots, but that's not always possible if none of your mates have seen the species you're after. As for forums like this one, you might have more luck PM'ing some of the guys who've recently posted pictures of willardi and introducing yourself, rather than posting on the main board and either expecting them to post their advice here for all the world to see, or expecting them to PM you with the specific information.
Bear in mind of course that I've never seen a wild rattlesnake, so you may find all of the above information to be less than helpful .
edit: I just read that posts suck without pictures, so here's a Popeia popeiorum...not a willardi, I've never seen one of those before (I may have mentioned this previously):
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Here's a few books that might help...
A guide to the Rattlesnakes of the United States by Brian Hubbs and Brendan O'Connor.
A Field Guide to Amphibians and Reptiles in Arizona by Thomas C. Brennan and Andrew T. Holycross
Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere by J. Campbell and B. Lamar... this is an expensive but very useful resource which also has dot map ranges.
The above mentioned are readily available.
The Snakes of Arizona by Jack Fowlie is really good but it is a kind of collectors item and not readily available. It does show up quite often and is usually not expensive. It has dot type range maps. It was published in 1965
I also did a search of Crotalus willardi habitat and came up with tons of references...
A guide to the Rattlesnakes of the United States by Brian Hubbs and Brendan O'Connor.
A Field Guide to Amphibians and Reptiles in Arizona by Thomas C. Brennan and Andrew T. Holycross
Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere by J. Campbell and B. Lamar... this is an expensive but very useful resource which also has dot map ranges.
The above mentioned are readily available.
The Snakes of Arizona by Jack Fowlie is really good but it is a kind of collectors item and not readily available. It does show up quite often and is usually not expensive. It has dot type range maps. It was published in 1965
I also did a search of Crotalus willardi habitat and came up with tons of references...
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
1.) A general locale reference ("such-and-such" county or "Near the town of so-and-so", for example...)
2.) One good habitat shot.
3.) Google Earth.
I am pretty confident that I could put myself in the correct habitat for any North American species with the above three things. Not saying I could find them but saying I could put myself where they are.
I have never caught a willardi, so can't specifically comment but if it's like any other montane crote, just "be there" and keep eyes and ears open would be my strategy.
Best of luck to you.
2.) One good habitat shot.
3.) Google Earth.
I am pretty confident that I could put myself in the correct habitat for any North American species with the above three things. Not saying I could find them but saying I could put myself where they are.
I have never caught a willardi, so can't specifically comment but if it's like any other montane crote, just "be there" and keep eyes and ears open would be my strategy.
Best of luck to you.
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
I kinda read this post as sarcastic... It has some seriously valid advice.
erik loza wrote:1.) A general locale reference ("such-and-such" county or "Near the town of so-and-so", for example...)
2.) One good habitat shot.
3.) Google Earth.
I am pretty confident that I could put myself in the correct habitat for any North American species with the above three things. Not saying I could find them but saying I could put myself where they are.
I have never caught a willardi, so can't specifically comment but if it's like any other montane crote, just "be there" and keep eyes and ears open would be my strategy.
Best of luck to you.
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
LOL, not sarcastic at all. I think the "just be there" part is the most important of all. I saw a cell phone pic, several years back, of a DOR pigmy rattler from the road which leads to my Mother-in-Law's house in East Texas. That would be a lifer for me. I looked, and looked, and looked for years. Could never find one, even though I knew the exact spot where the photo was taken and even set up some boards nearby.-EJ wrote:I kinda read this post as sarcastic... It has some seriously valid advice....
Then, one day, she says that there is a dead snake by the driveway. I go out there and it is a very-much-alive pigmy rattler, curled up in a patch of sun. Who would've thought, right next to our vehicles?
"Just be there" and keep your eyes open.
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
I kinda read it as sarcastic... can you blame me. The added response... I'll bet helps. No disrespect intended.
- M.J.FRANETOVICH
- Posts: 538
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:54 pm
- Location: Deadhorse/California
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
There not that hard to find! If you know how to search for rattlesnakes and it sounds like you do. Your book has already given you all the answers, pick a range (I prefer the Huachuca's) but pick one you like and start looking you'll get lucky!!! You already have all the answers
BUT IF YOU GET COUGHT COLLECTING WE WILL FIND YOU!
Mel~
BUT IF YOU GET COUGHT COLLECTING WE WILL FIND YOU!
Mel~
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
(cool response)
M.J.FRANETOVICH wrote:There not that hard to find! If you know how to search for rattlesnakes and it sounds like you do. Your book has already given you all the answers, pick a range (I prefer the Huachuca's) but pick one you like and start looking you'll get lucky!!! You already have all the answers
Mel~
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
You have asked and answered your own question.
KS
KS
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Give our response a little thought. I believe this is a kid just trying to get into the passion using the medium current available.
Now... re read your response.
Personally... I'd be offended by it with the same question.
Now... re read your response.
Personally... I'd be offended by it with the same question.
Sharrack wrote:You have asked and answered your own question.
KS
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Hello, First off, Manny is a great guy, but well old fashioned. hahahahahaha Willardi are not rare or restricted. But Manny is to old to know that.
As mentioned, they are a normal rattlesnake and do come up where they can be seen.
As to when, thats also common sense, but somewhat unpredictable in the Desert southwest, as our weather is also unpredictable.
Snakes do not like bone dry or ovens. No snakes, hahahahahahahaha
Remember, these are protected snakes and handling/posing them is illegal. Besides in situ pics are always better(ethics, hey). And willardi are posers. They love putting their face and rattle so you can GET THAT PICTURE.
Then consider, if you don't chase them, they don't run. Of course one may go down but if you don't go after it, it will come back up. Cheers
As mentioned, they are a normal rattlesnake and do come up where they can be seen.
As to when, thats also common sense, but somewhat unpredictable in the Desert southwest, as our weather is also unpredictable.
Snakes do not like bone dry or ovens. No snakes, hahahahahahahaha
Remember, these are protected snakes and handling/posing them is illegal. Besides in situ pics are always better(ethics, hey). And willardi are posers. They love putting their face and rattle so you can GET THAT PICTURE.
Then consider, if you don't chase them, they don't run. Of course one may go down but if you don't go after it, it will come back up. Cheers
- kyle loucks
- Posts: 3147
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 1:40 am
- Location: Pennsylvania- Bucks Co. near Phila.
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Keep reading and doing your own research... you are on the right track!
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
EJ.......With all due respect........opinions aside........tell me I'm wrong. After you do.......then ....for what?
He is # 1001 on a list of people who have asked that same question word for word since the day this forum went online.
A quick forum search from him would show just that. He asked and answered himself more than once in his post.
Difference of opinions.......lol......that's what makes threads like this last for 80 or 90 pages!
KS
He is # 1001 on a list of people who have asked that same question word for word since the day this forum went online.
A quick forum search from him would show just that. He asked and answered himself more than once in his post.
Difference of opinions.......lol......that's what makes threads like this last for 80 or 90 pages!
KS
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
It seemed a little rude to me...
Regardless... if you don't cast a line... you don't catch anything. This person seems to know that they don't know everything... or... better yet... doesn't have a problem asking for help. I notice that the majority of guys seem to have a problem with asking for help or saying 'I don't know'... why is that?
His method of asking has also drawn in quite a few responses.
Regardless... if you don't cast a line... you don't catch anything. This person seems to know that they don't know everything... or... better yet... doesn't have a problem asking for help. I notice that the majority of guys seem to have a problem with asking for help or saying 'I don't know'... why is that?
His method of asking has also drawn in quite a few responses.
Sharrack wrote:EJ.......With all due respect........opinions aside........tell me I'm wrong. After you do.......then ....for what?
He is # 1001 on a list of people who have asked that same question word for word since the day this forum went online.
A quick forum search from him would show just that. He asked and answered himself more than once in his post.
Difference of opinions.......lol......that's what makes threads like this last for 80 or 90 pages!
KS
- Mike VanValen
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- Location: Connecticut
- Contact:
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Tread lightly with the Arizona guys! They are almost as paranoid as Northeast herpers.
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
LOL isn't that the truth! Well....partially anyway.Tread lightly with the Arizona guys! They are almost as paranoid as Northeast herpers.
We do have many species here that are popular captives (both legal and il) and as such Az peeps are guarded about the "prized species" (of which C. willardi is one).
To the OP, it sounds like you've gotten quite a bit of help on this thread already...Just do your research, read as much as you can and get out there and hike....
Best of luck!
-Kris
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
azatrox wrote:LOL isn't that the truth! Well....partially anyway.Tread lightly with the Arizona guys! They are almost as paranoid as Northeast herpers.
We do have many species here that are popular captives (both legal and il) and as such Az peeps are guarded about the "prized species" (of which C. willardi is one).
To the OP, it sounds like you've gotten quite a bit of help on this thread already...Just do your research, read as much as you can and get out there and hike....
Best of luck!
-Kris
I certainly have, I have heard all I need, more so the encouragement rather than the specific info. I'm soaking up info like a sponge lately, and I feel 10 times the herper than I did a year ago, even though I've been doing it my entire life. The ethical side of things has been a huge area of growth for me lately, especially in understanding just how vulnerable some of our cherished species really are. Not afraid to admit how much I don't know, though! I knew asking about willardi would be stepping on thin ice, but I very much appreciate the responses
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Nahhh... it's simpler than that... some people are just control freaks.
DracoRJC wrote:azatrox wrote:LOL isn't that the truth! Well....partially anyway.Tread lightly with the Arizona guys! They are almost as paranoid as Northeast herpers.
We do have many species here that are popular captives (both legal and il) and as such Az peeps are guarded about the "prized species" (of which C. willardi is one).
To the OP, it sounds like you've gotten quite a bit of help on this thread already...Just do your research, read as much as you can and get out there and hike....
Best of luck!
-Kris
I certainly have, I have heard all I need, more so the encouragement rather than the specific info. I'm soaking up info like a sponge lately, and I feel 10 times the herper than I did a year ago, even though I've been doing it my entire life. The ethical side of things has been a huge area of growth for me lately, especially in understanding just how vulnerable some of our cherished species really are. Not afraid to admit how much I don't know, though! I knew asking about willardi would be stepping on thin ice, but I very much appreciate the responses
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
DracoRJC
I have lived in Arizona most of my life and recently found some willardi (and I cheated-a friend helped me). I did quite a bit of looking and hiking. Some people find them the first hour they search while others still haven't found them after 100s of hours of searching.
Hope for some moisture and sunshine. A cool thing about looking for them is that you may stumble upon other cool snakes, reptiles, mammals, birds, people, etc. I love hiking those areas. Even though it took me a while to see a willardi, I saw mountain kings, bears, other species of rattlesnakes, etc. in the process of looking for them. Also, you get to see a lot of beautiful country. I have hiked some of the ranges in the monsoons and other times - the weather is always unpredictable there. Make sure you eat at some of the little towns around there
The topic of being tight-lipped is a dead horse, but I will beat on it since I haven't-
People from Arizona tend to be tight-lipped but usually(not always) for good reason. Some locales do get raked. There was someone who got caught with a few dozen willardi who was trying to get them out of the states. Some of the more common stuff like chuckwallas are collected heavily - ie. someone had got caught with a lot chuckwallas from a well known locality. Sure these numbers aren't huge but it will affect that locality's population. AND, those are a few numbers of people who GOT CAUGHT, and we can only imagine people who haven't got caught. Sure there is some paranoia - but you can see why people don't like to give out too much information online or to people they don't know. I am sure poachers aren't going to tell us they are poachers -but that they are photographers or want to study that animal.
Also, don't take anything personal - it is not like we share information only with people from Arizona. Hell, I don't trust a lot of people in Arizona! I don't take people to spots that I know will pose or collect snakes - unless they are looking for some of the super common stuff - then I take them roadcruising.
So yeah, you have plenty time to do your homework! Google Earth, look up some PDFs and habitat photos. Make sure you hike with positivity, dedication, and have a blast! You are fortunate that you get to travel to herp!
I have lived in Arizona most of my life and recently found some willardi (and I cheated-a friend helped me). I did quite a bit of looking and hiking. Some people find them the first hour they search while others still haven't found them after 100s of hours of searching.
Hope for some moisture and sunshine. A cool thing about looking for them is that you may stumble upon other cool snakes, reptiles, mammals, birds, people, etc. I love hiking those areas. Even though it took me a while to see a willardi, I saw mountain kings, bears, other species of rattlesnakes, etc. in the process of looking for them. Also, you get to see a lot of beautiful country. I have hiked some of the ranges in the monsoons and other times - the weather is always unpredictable there. Make sure you eat at some of the little towns around there
The topic of being tight-lipped is a dead horse, but I will beat on it since I haven't-
People from Arizona tend to be tight-lipped but usually(not always) for good reason. Some locales do get raked. There was someone who got caught with a few dozen willardi who was trying to get them out of the states. Some of the more common stuff like chuckwallas are collected heavily - ie. someone had got caught with a lot chuckwallas from a well known locality. Sure these numbers aren't huge but it will affect that locality's population. AND, those are a few numbers of people who GOT CAUGHT, and we can only imagine people who haven't got caught. Sure there is some paranoia - but you can see why people don't like to give out too much information online or to people they don't know. I am sure poachers aren't going to tell us they are poachers -but that they are photographers or want to study that animal.
Also, don't take anything personal - it is not like we share information only with people from Arizona. Hell, I don't trust a lot of people in Arizona! I don't take people to spots that I know will pose or collect snakes - unless they are looking for some of the super common stuff - then I take them roadcruising.
So yeah, you have plenty time to do your homework! Google Earth, look up some PDFs and habitat photos. Make sure you hike with positivity, dedication, and have a blast! You are fortunate that you get to travel to herp!
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Having a daughter and her husband living in Mesa and hearing about all the border issues that even effect them there...how much hassle or even danger is there in herping far southern end of the state? (After getting past the well considered can't even go there hyperbole... )
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
The biggest PITA when down by the border is all the border patrol checkpoints/convoys. It's hard to believe anything illegal goes on down there what with all the policing that goes on. Give me back the frontier!
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Same for my stretch of the border. I rarely see or even hear of any sign of illegal activity. However, border patrol is literally swarming the region. There wasn't anywhere near this much LE presence when I moved here eight years ago. With the constant surveillance, frequent stops and all the BP checkpoints, I'm starting to feel like I'm living in a police state.reptilist wrote:The biggest PITA when down by the border is all the border patrol checkpoints/convoys. It's hard to believe anything illegal goes on down there what with all the policing that goes on. Give me back the frontier!
I once had four BP officers park and watch me with binoculars for about 30 minutes while I was herping on MY OWN LAND. Worst part was, I really needed to take a dump.
- M.J.FRANETOVICH
- Posts: 538
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:54 pm
- Location: Deadhorse/California
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Norman D wrote:There was someone who got caught with a few dozen willardi who was trying to get them out of the states.!
This is the crap that pisses me off, some idiot trying to make a few buck$ on such a magnificent reptile, get a job you looser!!! poachers are the scum of the herping field, dirt bags, nothing more than a parasite that should be eradicated!!! I hope that prick got the max punishment!!
If it was up to me he would of received some of this!!
Mel
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Daryl Eby wrote:I once had four BP officers park and watch me with binoculars for about 30 minutes while I was herping on MY OWN LAND. Worst part was, I really needed to take a dump.
I think you should have gone ahead and taught them a lesson.
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
LOL. It was never a question of crapping in their view (which would also have been in view of the highway). I needed to hike behind some rock outcrops to get out of view. Doing so would have looked suspicious and likely resulted in them hiking or driving across my land to question me at length, waste my time and search my property.jonathan wrote:I think you should have gone ahead and taught them a lesson.Daryl Eby wrote:I once had four BP officers park and watch me with binoculars for about 30 minutes while I was herping on MY OWN LAND. Worst part was, I really needed to take a dump.
Re: Is there a safe way to ask?
Food for thought... Hiking the Flume in SD I frequently encountered illegals... while with my kids. The first time was a shock... after that... they were only trying to find a better life.
Bob wrote:Having a daughter and her husband living in Mesa and hearing about all the border issues that even effect them there...how much hassle or even danger is there in herping far southern end of the state? (After getting past the well considered can't even go there hyperbole... )