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 Post subject: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 2nd, 2017, 8:09 am 

Joined: October 11th, 2012, 6:37 pm
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http://www.mailtribune.com/news/2017013 ... egal-trade


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 2nd, 2017, 9:58 am 
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Cue the active poaching-denier from other threads in one, two....
edit: Good that they release the names, but then again, there are known poachers and smugglers that are still highly regarded by many.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 2nd, 2017, 6:34 pm 

Joined: October 11th, 2012, 6:37 pm
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Here's the FWS news release that the Medford news story is based on....more details on some east coast species that the Oregonian reporter wasn't interested in.....

https://www.fws.gov/news/ShowNews.cfm?r ... &_ID=35966


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 3rd, 2017, 6:02 am 
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From 2008 through 2012, Collalto was part of a group of individuals who trafficked hundreds of illegally collected snakes to or from Oregon, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, California, Texas, New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut and Canada, according to the Fish and Wildlife Service.


Hundreds of snakes? Where is that number coming from ? Nothing was presented to validate that this case involved even a hundred snakes. The major guy in this case was Gerard Kruse, 42, a social worker) responsible for 59 over a period of 3 yrs. The BIG score in this operation was a few "rare" according to Oregon law (no scientific data to support it) California mountain kingsnakes. Some other protected species involved were 1 corn snake , 1 Northern Pine snake, 1 coastal plains milk snake.

The real story, this was a couple small collectors swapping a few snakes here and there. All small time bullshit but it has to be made to look big. That's all these dopey Fish and Wildlife "Special" Agents can ever come up with to justify their jobs. Three yrs of OT paychecks for this penny ante BS. I'm not advocating that anyone should violate the law or saying that these guys aren't complete morons, they are. But to try and make a case that this bust represents some sort of crucial wildlife protection is complete drama queen garbage.

Quote:
Gary Young, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s Special Agent in Charge for the Pacific Region
Our agents will continue to work with our partners to fully investigate and bring to justice individuals who choose to commercialize and profit from protected wildlife species

Assistant Attorney General John C. Cruden for the Justice Department’s Environment and Natural Resources Division.  “All of our protected species, including reptiles, are important to our ecosystems and must be shielded from such illegal trafficking. The Justice Department will continue to vigorously support efforts against domestic wildlife trafficking.”



Those quotes are typical of the over the top press fodder clowns like Gary Young spit out to excite the ignorant public. No doubt these comments were made while standing in front of a flag waving in the breeze and being handed a slice of homemade apple pie. Gotta love Assistant Attorney General John C. Crudens bullshit, catch a guy with a mikesnake and he's saving America, USGS scientist falsifying data and defrauding US citizen's out of possibly two hundred million tax payer dollars gets brushed it under the table.

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Cue the active poaching-denier from other threads in one, two....


If you are referring to me. I would suggest that you and everyone else put on your thinking caps good and tight. Then go back and read thru what I said. I never denied anything. I debunked the claims that snake "poaching" is common or the cause of population declines for any snake specie's. Not denial, true perspective. The legal crap is for lawyers and phony moralist. I'm not advocating that anyone should violate the law. But I do understand that it makes no difference if an animal is collected legally or not in nature. The biological impact is the same. What has been seen time and time again is that snake species are not being adversely impacted by collection. Decades of studies involving the snake species most likely to be threatened by, OMG "illegal" collection have not turned up a single shred of evidence to support that idea.

Before taking a shot make sure yours games correct.

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Good that they release the names, but then again, there are known poachers and smugglers that are still highly regarded by many.


Don't be cryptic, Name some.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 4th, 2017, 2:59 pm 
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Good job F&W charging someone who has passed on.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 5th, 2017, 7:08 am 
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Better late than never! :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 13th, 2017, 7:46 pm 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
Better late than never! :beer:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I usually agree with Ernie in spirit, even if I don't appear to on here, and in this case he is dead on correct. Kruse and Colalto were morons, and Gerardo will admit that now. He feels like an idiot. I cannot speak for Mr. C. because I don't know him. I do know that Mtn Kings are not rare. They are very plentiful in their habitat. I wrote the book on them after all, you know...It really pisses me off when someone calls them rare just because they are too stupid to figure out their natural history and go look for them, or to even read a few books and articles about them that would give them instructions on how to do that. But, this is what you can expect from Oregon game people and even the USF&WS agents. Complete tards who can only find the dumbest poachers out there. I'm disgusted, not because these guys got caught, but because a small case is blown out of proportion to feed the mindless idiot readers.

Oh, and I love how it's always someone who doesn't even live in the U.S. or have herp experience here that attacks Ernie. Well, Mr. Finland, we are not Europe...and we have a few billion more snakes than you do...so you protect your frogs, and we'll worry about our reptiles...

The REAL villains in the U.S. are the developers that destroy habitat to erect their buildings, roads, or solar farms. And also farmers...who plant crops we really don't need more of, like grape vineyards. Screw them all... :x


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 13th, 2017, 8:58 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:30 pm
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Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT
The critical thing to understand, which 90% of humans innately do, is that reptiles are not as important as human beings. That's why 90% of the world doesn't give a frogs fat ass about stopping development or any other human activity regardless of how much harm it causes to wildlife populations. It's only recently that I've come to understand that.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 13th, 2017, 9:28 pm 
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An interesting coincidence is that 90% of human beings suck.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 13th, 2017, 9:55 pm 

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Brian Hubbs wrote:
The REAL villains in the U.S. are the developers that destroy habitat to erect their buildings, roads, or solar farms. And also farmers...who plant crops we really don't need more of, like grape vineyards. Screw them all... :x


Bingo- the conservation issues that wildlife managers and politicians are often unable/unwilling to address....

stlouisdude wrote:
The critical thing to understand, which 90% of humans innately do, is that reptiles are not as important as human beings. That's why 90% of the world doesn't give a frogs fat ass about stopping development or any other human activity regardless of how much harm it causes to wildlife populations. It's only recently that I've come to understand that.


The irony is that the one group that has had some public relations and political success are the "every feral cat is sacred" groups, i.e. PETA and HSUS. In the couple of conversations I've had such minded people, they have very little understanding of ecology, predator-prey dynamics, population biology, or wildlife management, and little interest in engaging in habitat protection. I wonder what we can learn from them in developing a PR campaign and communicating with a dummed-down public?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 13th, 2017, 10:45 pm 
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People love to Group Up - and think Their circle jerk of hyperbole is The Real Thing!

But none are willing to be inconvenienced, or do with Less, therefore development and other environmental damages will continue. Because even the not so dum ones are addicted to its perks.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 14th, 2017, 7:42 am 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
People love to Group Up - and think Their circle jerk of hyperbole is The Real Thing!

But none are willing to be inconvenienced, or do with Less, therefore development and other environmental damages will continue. Because even the not so dum ones are addicted to its perks.


I agree Kelly. Most people are self serving idiots, and that includes the poachers who don't give a damn about ecology either, just how many animals they can collect to sell. It also includes the greedy jerks who sell large pythons to the public (like Burmese) which will not know what to do with a 12-15 ft. adult snake once it grows up. It seems like almost everyone just wants to screw this planet up...and meanwhile, the Feds and state agencies just go after the small time sensational busts...so that it looks like they are doing something. I'm fed up with it all. This is one of the reasons I've migrated to bird photography in the last year...

And Ernie...your wisdom is great. Just stop with the quotes and lengthy posts. It's annoying to read all that and i think you lose some people with it. Just state your opinion and a few facts to back it up. Endless arguments seldom sway anybody here. :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 14th, 2017, 9:18 am 

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I agree with Mr. Hubbs... Brevity is our friend. I also agree with Ernie. There simply isn't a market for "hundreds" of poached animals (as if three guys could have that much effect in their spare time). It's all about the Public Relations of the department involved.

Brian if you did a "Birds of insert name of canyon" book many folks would buy it. When you get tired of birds try photographing bats !
You gotta love Chiroptera !

Craig Barnes


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 14th, 2017, 10:06 am 
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Craig over a course of significant time the incidence of illegally obtained reptiles (and other animals) I have encountered has easily surpassed the 100 mark, and I am only one individual, so you're wrong.

Also, dude your snout is just right up there try to restrain yourself you're a grown man.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 14th, 2017, 10:09 am 
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craigb wrote:
I agree with Mr. Hubbs... Brevity is our friend. I also agree with Ernie. There simply isn't a market for "hundreds" of poached animals (as if three guys could have that much effect in their spare time). It's all about the Public Relations of the department involved.

Brian if you did a "Birds of insert name of canyon" book many folks would buy it. When you get tired of birds try photographing bats !
You gotta love Chiroptera !

Craig Barnes


I have 3 bird books in the works, but they are a little more far reaching than a canyon... :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 14th, 2017, 1:52 pm 
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craigb wrote:
I agree with Mr. Hubbs... Brevity is our friend. I also agree with Ernie. There simply isn't a market for "hundreds" of poached animals (as if three guys could have that much effect in their spare time). It's all about the Public Relations of the department involved.

Brian if you did a "Birds of insert name of canyon" book many folks would buy it. When you get tired of birds try photographing bats !
You gotta love Chiroptera !

Craig Barnes


I have met guys who used the fact that the specimens they had were illegal as a selling point

These were small time guys who arent expecting to become millionaires, just like bike thieves dont expect to. Wake up, criminal behavior is opportunistic and there are alot of bad apples - they are not RARE and I know it.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 15th, 2017, 12:13 pm 

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I guess my narrow focus was lost on you Kelly. I seriously doubt you have been approached to buy illegally obtained California Mountain Kingsnakes and told that they came from Oregon as a selling point.

You are right though about some turtles, tortoises, and egg layers that produce large clutches. Seriously though having just renewed my Ca. fishing license I was thinking of those protected in Ca. I truly don't believe people are selling hundreds of blunt nosed leopard lizards, Mohave fringe toed lizards, or even Mountain yellow legged frogs. I could be wrong though. Foreign zoos might just pay that much. If they were, I would think we would hear about the arrests.

Just my narrow take on the conversation about the three poachers and illegally obtained Ca. Mtn. Kingsnakes.

Maybe Kelly if you elaborated on the over 100 illegal animals you have encountered. I know if you are talking about foreign species entering the U.S., or Red Eared Sliders and the like leaving the U.S. you are correct. Blue tongue skinks illegally imported from Indonesia are another obvious concern.

But I repeat, I don't believe Ca. Mtn Kingsnakes are not a hot item on the black market.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 15th, 2017, 12:52 pm 
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It's all about the Public Relations of the department involved.


Why not be happy that they care about reptiles at all. The media impression that snakes and other reptiles warrant protection is strategic to other protection, ie habitat preservation.

It has a lot more potential for public awareness than snake holding birthday parties or cottage industries producing snakes in different shades of yellow.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 15th, 2017, 2:31 pm 

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I guess my concern is with the facts, rather than speculation. If the article listed the people charged, their crime, and how many animals were directly involved, I would shut the heck up. But to justify their existence they conclude their interview/article with broad exaggerated statements (and the media just eats it up ! as fact). It's like the growing concern with "Fake News" because in reality that is what this is.

And yes I would like to see more government involvement in a National Herptile count day, much like the bird counts that are sponsored or attended by these agencies. How about Reptile days at local parks with USFW and CDFG educating the public much like they do with fishing/hunting opening days and tournaments.

I have seen CDFG at Reptile Shows but unfortunately I think they are for an education or presumed enforcement.

Just some crazy ideas...


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 16th, 2017, 12:50 pm 
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craigb wrote:
And yes I would like to see more government involvement in a National Herptile count day, much like the bird counts that are sponsored or attended by these agencies. How about Reptile days at local parks with USFW and CDFG educating the public much like they do with fishing/hunting opening days and tournaments.


This comment has piqued my interest. At SWCHR, this is something we're looking into. We're hoping to partner with some other organizations to help bring events like this to reality.

If you or others have additional thoughts/suggestions in this regard please feel free to email me at info (at) southwesternherp.com.

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 16th, 2017, 12:51 pm 
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s_stocking wrote:
The irony is that the one group that has had some public relations and political success are the "every feral cat is sacred" groups, i.e. PETA and HSUS. . . . I wonder what we can learn from them in developing a PR campaign and communicating with a dummed-down public?


The most important lesson is that money talks, and those two groups have a lot of it. We herp enthusiasts have historically been a stingy bunch.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 16th, 2017, 1:43 pm 
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The most important lesson is that money talks, and those two groups have a lot of it. We herp enthusiasts have historically been a stingy bunch.


That's what I've been saying all along. But to classify the reptile crowd as being a historically stingy bunch is unfair. Its not an apples to apples comparison. Look at the business numbers. Dogs and cats are supported by insane numbers. Groups such as PETA and HSUS have annual advertising budgets in the millions and receive huge private donations and political support. For reptiles the money or the support just isn't there. You cant blame it on the reptile enthusiast. The reality is your dealing with much smaller numbers so you end up with a lot less of everything.

Back on topic,

This case known as "operation Kingsnake" typifies the BS that has gone on with law enforcement and reptiles since animal rights and environmental maniacs began heavily targeting the exotic pet trade in the early 70's. The real question to ask is why was all the time and effort put in to this "operation" when it had to be obvious right from the start that it involved nothing more then a couple misdemeanors. When talking about reptiles there has never been anything truly worthwhile for law enforcement to chase after like that. The people involved make for colorful stories and headlines but from a law enforcement standpoint what has taken place over the years has been an absolute farce.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 16th, 2017, 6:54 pm 
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For being so "heavily targeted", the exotic trade has always taken full advantage of its ugliest excesses and corner-cutting taking place behind closed doors.


Who were the Maniacs of the 70s, exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 17th, 2017, 7:37 am 

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I don't remember the names, but the fools who raided The City of Hope research labs to save the bunnies from studies on Leukemia, and childhood cancer come to mind.

The idiots that spiked trees so that loggers would be maimed belong in the same cell.

Kelly just google the terms "Eco terrorism" and "Humaniac"


But, then again we are far from the topic of three foolish herpers poaching a few Ca. Mtn. Kingsnakes in Oregon. I do believe they got what they deserved, but saying to the media that they were part of a huge problem dealing with hundreds of animals is simply fiction.

craig


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 17th, 2017, 8:00 am 
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I agree with Craig and Ernie, Kelly. The U.S. poaching problem is tiny compared to higher dollar exotic animals. The problem is that most LE and even wildlife biologists do not understand that snakes are much more abundant than they believe. The fact that snakes live underground compounds the problem of detection. If you don't know how or when to look for them you will have no clue as to their abundance. I pounded that point in both my large books (Mtn Kings and Common Kingsnakes). Have you read them? You can find both at the East Bay Vivarium. In fact, Common Kingsnakes has a whole chapter devoted to the abuse of power by LE, idiotic sting operations, and the blown out of proportion stories in the press. Most herpers haven't even read that chapter...


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 17th, 2017, 11:11 am 

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So I wondered where my post went, and low and behold I find it was moved to the Board Line- just curious, but does anyone know when/how this happens?

So I emailed the FWS public affairs POC on the article, asking about 1) details on the "hundreds" of snakes poached, particularly in Nevada (my geographic area if particular interest), and 2) do the plea agreements include a requirement that the location of these poachings be provided to state F&W agencies? He emailed me this for 1 of the 3, and said I could find the other 2 by googling them.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/705396/download

Despite searching using Google, and on regional F&W and justice department sites, I can't find plea agreements on the other 2. I apologize if this appears to be "throwing this individual under the bus" so to speak, but it is public record and the agreement itself is a worthwhile read- he pled guilty to 13 counts covering "59 illegally collected, transported, shipped, or received" snakes. It's not clear if there is overlap in these 59 snakes- for example a few snakes illegally collected/received in one count could be shipped at a later point in time in another count. Species/subspecies involved include: Corn snakes, Northern Pines snakes, San Diego Mountain kings, 1 San Bernadino Mountain King, Sierra Mountain Kings, Cali Mountain kings collected in Oregon, Outer banks kings, 1 Eastern King, 1 Western diamondback rattlesnake, and 1 black necked garter snake. Without seeing the other 2 plea agreements it's hard to know where the "hundreds of snakes" in the news article comes from. If the other 2 dealt in a similar volume then it's certainly plausible, however if they were colluding, and 1 individual was charged with collecting and/or shipping on one end and another individual was charged with receiving/distributing the same 59 or so snakes on the other end, it's hard to see how that gets to 200+ individual snakes that were removed from the wild.....


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 17th, 2017, 11:46 am 

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If it helps you at all, the reason they were convicted was due to the stricter laws pertaining to the Ca. Mtn. Kingsnakes in Oregon. Northern Pine snakes and the others are protected only in New Jersey, yet are quite common in other states.

As I read the paperwork the term "idiot" is appropriate. Shipping illegally caught cornsnakes from New Jersey to California is just nuts. There ARE hundreds of cornsnakes legally bred every year in California. Why get the ones from the state where they are protected? Just stupidity.

Maybe part of what Kelly said is true that people will knowingly and repeatedly pay for protected illegal animals inside the U.S..
LEAVE NEW JERSEY REPTILES ALONE ! Wow, I guess I'm a freakin genius.

Maybe I should go hunting for a Thylacine ??? :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes:



Thank you for researching and getting the facts you posted.

Craig


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PostPosted: February 18th, 2017, 8:43 am 
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[quote="s_stocking"]So I wondered where my post went, and low and behold I find it was moved to the Board Line- just curious, but does anyone know when/how this happens?

Scott decides which posts are appropriate for the main forum and which are not. If a post is not directly related to field herping, or is controversial, it usually gets moved here...

I think that's a sad policy because a lot of herpers are not aware of how many game agencies operate, nor the tendency of the press to blow stories out of proportion, nor the lack of knowledge on the part of game agencies. They need to be educated so they do not become the next victims by ignorance.

Moving a post like this to a forum that hardly anyone ever looks at is just bad policy in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 19th, 2017, 7:10 pm 
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craigb wrote:
I don't remember the names, but the fools who raided The City of Hope research labs to save the bunnies from studies on Leukemia, and childhood cancer come to mind.

The idiots that spiked trees so that loggers would be maimed belong in the same cell.

Kelly just google the terms "Eco terrorism" and "Humaniac"


But, then again we are far from the topic of three foolish herpers poaching a few Ca. Mtn. Kingsnakes in Oregon. I do believe they got what they deserved, but saying to the media that they were part of a huge problem dealing with hundreds of animals is simply fiction.

craig


Yeah, none of those events have anything to do with Targeting the exotic trade.

I have somewhat methodically watched interactions online and its a fascinating look into human social nature. The more eclectic the group, the more eager the impulse to create absolutes and create effigy of character, (ie; the enemy.

When I worked in the animal field I had personalized contact with a large, well rounded and diverse group of people, professionals, non professionals, GP families and individuals, scientists ( 2 of my employers were PHDs in the Sciences) physicians (who kept animals as a hobby) Fish & Game and Animal Control people who worked in different parts of the agency, Animal Dealers and Breeders.

The most conscious and intelligent of the above would be labled as Maniacs by the criteria of some people, since the python ban.


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PostPosted: February 19th, 2017, 9:44 pm 
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We have a python ban?


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PostPosted: February 19th, 2017, 10:13 pm 
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You know what I mean


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PostPosted: February 19th, 2017, 11:30 pm 
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Snake hatin' guvnuhs and peta people are of course terrifying to be associated with, and a narrow focus isnt everyones way of looking at stuff.



a third wave of the way humans involve themselves with the millions of other species besides THEMSELVES is coming. Its coming and it cant be stopped because its good.


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PostPosted: February 20th, 2017, 3:28 pm 
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The tip of the iceberg. In around 73 with the rise of the animal's rights and environmental group crazies. Many events took place in short succession pushed for by these groups. The thoroughly corrupted rewritten ESA, the CITES Trade Agreement or as it was known the Washington act and a bill under the Injurious species Act filled with incredibly prohibitive language. Also from out of nowhere a slew of State regulation's. This wacko plan was designed to wipe out all exotic animal ownership in one giant fell swoop. The wackos wanted to put the zoos out of business to. Since that time its been non stop with one bogus and irrational proposal and law after another from local to federal. All targeting innocent exotic animal owners. One look at the maze of current legislation and how much of it came about, the way its enforced....WOW! Its ridiculous. Its a mindset not base on education or rational and intelligent decision making . It comes from pure knee jerk ignorance and phony self righteousness. The meaningless operation Kingsnake fiasco that started this thread in a good illustration of how far out of whack things have gotten with legislation.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 20th, 2017, 4:37 pm 
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If you want to change those things maybe you should change some things, too. That could be true for many humans involved with animals.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 21st, 2017, 10:33 am 

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As I read the paperwork the term "idiot" is appropriate. Shipping illegally caught cornsnakes from New Jersey to California is just nuts. There ARE hundreds of cornsnakes legally bred every year in California. Why get the ones from the state where they are protected? Just stupidity.


Yep. Eastern kings, pines, and corns? Shipping an atrox in the US Mail? Wow. "Idiot" is too kind.

Sure, snakes are often commoner within their distributions than they appear, due to their secretive or seasonal behavior. That doesn't mean their take should be unregulated - there's a long, well-documented history of what happens with unregulated take of wildlife. And sure, the numerous fish and game/wildlife agencies around the country present some case studies in illegitimate or counterfeit public process, which can easily result in some stupid laws. Like, "regulated take = no take". Even populations of 1000 or 2000 animals can sustain some level of take - it is done routinely with game animals.

But laws get enforced, whether they are stupid or not. Follow them or break them, that's every individual's decision to make. If you don't like them, try to get them changed, or prevent more bad ones from passing. At some levels of government, and in some locations, that's a tall or even hopeless order. But the more local you go, the better chances you've got.

I can't really find much sympathy for someone who gets busted for knowingly buying poached animals across state lines. Lacey has been around over a century.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 21st, 2017, 8:51 pm 
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But laws get enforced, whether they are stupid or not. Follow them or break them, that's every individual's decision to make. If you don't like them, try to get them changed, or prevent more bad ones from passing. At some levels of government, and in some locations, that's a tall or even hopeless order. But the more local you go, the better chances you've got.

I can't really find much sympathy for someone who gets busted for knowingly buying poached animals across state lines. Lacey has been around over a century.

This says much, Jimi.


Sometimes, I think many folks don't separate the law makers from the law enforcers.

For law makers, there seems a gap between the reality of population levels and the need for absolute protecting, while the bulldozers are still rolling for malls, golf courses, subdivisions, etc. etc. Politicians wanting simplicity and special interest for complex issues seem to lurk in this world. Maybe worse yet are ideological lawmakers that make unenforcable laws.


The lack of separating the two is unfortunate when you meet some of these LEOs in the field and think about their jobs: long nights away from home, getting eaten up by mosquitos, ticks, etc., dealing with drunk, armed hunters, and even the dumb asses in this story.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 22nd, 2017, 5:38 am 
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Politician's don't get out of bed and start thinking about stupid reptile legislation. They are approached and pushed. Often behind closed doors. Stupid or not Laws do get enforced but sometimes selectively and with prejudice. 4" turtle law anyone?

The law enforcers who collected three year's worth of pay checks on this small time case didn't spend long nights getting eaten up by mosquitos, ticks, or dealing with drunk, armed hunters. They sat on their ass's in front of computer's talking on the phone. These clowns milked it for all it was worth, then pumped it up to make themselves look good. The small hobbyist involved were dumb (all risk and no reward) but as crimes go this is as petty as it gets . Write up some fines, don't do it again and move on. Hours not years.


Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 23rd, 2017, 6:28 am 

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Yep Ernie.... And in reality a car theft has twice the value of these snakes. Someone steals a new Range Rover and LE doesn't say "it's just the tip of the iceberg, hundreds are stolen everyday". They play it down and say they are getting a handle on crime and that people don't need to worry; because crime is down....

Think of how many car thefts occur everyday and what little publicity each one gets. But someone poaches some animals and it is a media circus that goes on for years.

Basically they are there for our "entertainment".


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 23rd, 2017, 10:42 am 

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Thanks Bill, I enjoy talking with you. Something else to comment on:

Quote:
For law makers, there seems a gap between the reality of population levels and the need for absolute protecting, while the bulldozers are still rolling for malls, golf courses, subdivisions, etc. etc. Politicians wanting simplicity and special interest for complex issues seem to lurk in this world. Maybe worse yet are ideological lawmakers that make unenforcable laws.


I don't want to come off pedantic but there's a "basic civics" nuance here that needs to be addressed. There are laws (legislative branch), and there are rules (executive branch) that have the force or power of law. On the back end, on the "after the fact" experienced end, there's not much difference. Except that one (rule) is VASTLY easier to create or tweak or reverse. On the front end there's the same basic difference - rules are much easier to create, tweak, or snuff in the cradle (so to speak).

There isn't a whole lot of wildlife legislation. There is a lot of wildlife rule. Most of the wildlife legislation simply creates executive-branch wildlife agencies and tasks them with some duties - basically, provide access to wildlife and ensure all the species will always exist in viable and usable "amounts". Trust me, it's better this way - there is a difference between the creation of policy, and the execution of it. It truly sucks when the legislative branch butts into the execution side. They aren't any good at it, and it isn't their job.

All this stuff about bulldozers, golf courses, etc - folks need to understand that almost without exception, wildlife agencies have been given zero authority by the legislative branch (which is the only place the authority comes from) to write rules about this stuff. Major misunderstanding going on here. What we do - all we can do - is try to influence it via something called "impact analysis" or "environmental review". Typically, we write a letter to the agency that actually has permitting or regulatory authority. The letter ask for this and that - hardly ever do we ask that something just be stopped outright, far more often we ask for specific adjustments to proposals, and less often - if only if we are authorized to do so - we ask for or demand compensatory mitigation.

Local land use is a city- or county-permitted and -regulated activity. Indirect take, like habitat development or roadkill or whatever, is handled indirectly via "impact analysis" unless there's a state or federal law giving some authority/responsibility to the state or federal wildlife agency (e.g., the Endangered Species Act gives FWS and NMFS the authority to designate critical habitat, the destruction of which cannot be funded with federal money). Generally, the agencies with statutory authority or responsibility for something that can affect wildlife, are free (within the bounds of public opinion and other mechanisms of "politics") to play nice or just blow us off. Over the long arc of time things can change for better, or for worse - for example I have noted here the improved relations between wildlife and transportation agencies. But this is because the legislation that authorizes transportation funding has been improved to compel the transportation agencies to consider wildlife (and the highway safety implications of wildlife).

What wildlife agencies do have clear, statutory authority to do is regulate - via rule - stuff like seasons, bag & possession limits, and acceptable methods of direct take. Stakeholders need to get involved to help the agencies create better rules, and fix the screwy ones, like zero or tiny bag & possession limits and closed seasons on species that can tolerate some level of harvest. Again, influencing rules tends to be vastly easier than influencing legislation. Sometimes it actually is pretty easy, sometimes it is awfully hard. But even then, it's still easier than legislation, for the average citizen.

Hope that's helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 26th, 2017, 11:30 pm 
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As i understand it Jimi, many game departments are afraid to ease up on limits or prohibitions because they might get sued by the chowder heads like the Center for Biological Diversity (a known environmental leach organization). Do you find this to be true? I'll take my answer off the air...thanks... 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 27th, 2017, 10:39 am 

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Hi Brian,

Quote:
many game departments are afraid to ease up on limits or prohibitions because they might get sued...Do you find this to be true?


Not really, not that I've seen. A couple things to keep in mind. Just my perspectives, "my truth" not "The Truth".

1) State wildlife agencies don't have their own lawyers, they have "embedded" lawyers who are employees of the state Attorney General's office. (We all work for the governor, right?) While we don't like to get sued - it's a waste of resources - we are happy to go to the mat if we think we will prevail, and it's a matter of strong principle (e.g., fulfilling our statutory and public trust obligations).

2) If wildlife agencies - who always partner extensively with academia, i.e. "the guys best-equipped to establish objective reality" - can't come up with a reasonable, credible scientific ("can a harvest be sustained, demographically speaking?") basis for maintaining excessively restrictive harvest limits - how could CBD or other "environmental" litigants? Emphasis on "can".

3) If you're talking about animal-welfare or philosophical perspectives ("should a harvest be allowed?") then you're talking about a whole different thing. The folks in this category are not environmental organizations in the classical sense. Emphasis on "should". Big difference between can and should.

4) Executive-branch staff are on solid ground when they stick with "can". They are walking the plank when they stray into "should", at work anyway. Only elected and appointed people, in government, have any business in "should" land. With wildlife agencies, that is the Director and the Commission or Board. Honestly, I have seen some mistakes made on this point - staff knowingly or accidentally (e.g. via gross over-application of "the precautionary principle") straying into "should" land. I think anyone on the inside who wouldn't admit that would be intellectually dishonest. OTOH, I feel strongly that anyone, inside or outside, who wouldn't accept a little human imperfection - particularly if there is an awareness of error & a willingness to improve - would be a deluded zealot, and surely a hypocrite.

5) The country - the land and the people - is changing. It is always changing, it always has been changing, it always will be changing. Pain comes when different groups have different comfort levels with the rate of change. Too fast, too slow, too much, too little etc. Want zero change? Want to go back to some fictional past? You're in for some killer heartburn. I'm a planner at heart - where do we want to get to, and how do we achieve that?

6) Minorities need protection from majorities. Both need to be reasonable and respectful, to give a little to get a little, AKA "people need to compromise, in the real world". A majority that lords over a minority is looking for a revolution, or at least a burning, corrosive resentment. A minority that tries to lord over a majority is looking for a beat-down.

An interesting case study is the 2016 New Hampshire bobcat proposal. Look into that. The agency proposed to reopen a bobcat trapping season, which had closed in 1989 due to low cat numbers. Contemporary science says bobcats have recovered enough to permit resumption of managed harvest. But 25 years of social change have led to a state human population that really isn't into it. I don't think the agency did a very good job of making the case to a skeptical public, that NH trappers should not be denied access to this public resource, and that the trappers pose no risk to the viability of the resource, even though a few individual cats would be killed. The agency was surprised by the public outcry over their proposal. Sure, HSUS and others piled on, but in talking to my peer over there it was a real local-public sentiment that carried the day, and not a collection of extremists from all over the country.

Hope this has been stimulating for people who can have a calm, respectful conversation.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 27th, 2017, 11:16 am 
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Wildlife agencies getting sued certainly is some of it. Biological ambulance chasers like the Center for Biological Diversity are one example. Their lawyers are paid out of tax payer dollars (Millions). The dopes that support this crap have no idea their money is being used to pay attorneys and settlement costs . The agencies "settle" and the state pays all the legal and settlement fees out of tax payer dollars. Its a FKing joke what goes on with this crap.

Lawsuit-happy organizations like the CBD make their living off of bogus suing and settling scams. That's how everything ties together the more that's endangered, the more protection, the more money. If anything is actually endangered or protected that is irrelevant. The control is what matters.The more control the power and the opportunity for Wildlife agencies and special interest groups. Because of this reptiles are an easy target for this type of BS. They cant be compared to traditional game animals in terms of how they are regulated.The big money isn't in the live animal trade it is in attacking it. Its a strategy that is targeted and supported by the most basic and stupid element's of the human thought process. Ideology VS. Rational Thought.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 27th, 2017, 5:49 pm 

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Brian - the case cited by the OP ("poaching in Oregon") has nothing to do with lawsuits. Sorry I didn't take your suggestion ("...offline") more forcefully. You were right.

I'll just say this again. People repeat themselves when they think they aren't being heard.
Quote:
What wildlife agencies do have clear, statutory authority to do is regulate - via rule - stuff like seasons, bag & possession limits, and acceptable methods of direct take. Stakeholders need to get involved to help the agencies create better rules, and fix the screwy ones, like zero or tiny bag & possession limits and closed seasons on species that can tolerate some level of harvest.

IMO there's no credible demographic reason for a possession ("at your house") limit of 1 zonata in CA, or zero in Oregon. The latter (OR) is probably related to enforcement; it's lazy but I can see the appeal. But the former (CA) - assuming it's also an enforcement argument ("possession limit should equal bag limit") - could easily be obviated by e.g., submitting a photo with your annual harvest report. In this way the citizen could prove that animal A was harvested in e.g. 2008, animal B in 2010, animal C in 2011. Receipts and photo could prove that animals D, E and F were purchased at show X in 2012. For example. Stakeholders and the agency could come up with reasonable solutions like this, if they were willing.

See you around, Brian.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 27th, 2017, 9:22 pm 
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My comment on taking my answer "off the air" was just a joke from listening to too much talk radio years ago...I actually was expecting a response here. for the 4 or 5 people who really read this thread, I think your answers are valuable. I know of at least one state that regulates partially out of fear of being sued. I won't name it, but it's the largest state on the left coast... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 28th, 2017, 10:11 am 

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That state's wildlife agency is one of the least familiar to me, in my current role. I used to know them better, in a much different role. My perception remains that they are huge, insular, opaque, and inscrutable. Knowing what I know now about public service (that it's misunderstood, under-resourced, and over-maligned), they have my sympathies, but I cannot and would not offer excuses. Their actions and inactions have consequences. As a Buddhist might say, "life is suffering".

I would add that, whatever one thinks they know is a complex function of the transmitter, the receiver, and the message. Epistemology is fascinating, and deeply worthy of study and reflection.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 28th, 2017, 1:58 pm 
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This is a good representation of what is taking place across the board in the phony and lucrative world of wildlife management and protection.

Department of Justice Documents Confirm Center for Biological Diversity Received Millions in Taxpayer Funds from ESA-Related Lawsuits

http://naturalresources.house.gov/newsroom/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=301242

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 28th, 2017, 3:29 pm 

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None of those cases had anything to do with poaching, or any other violations of state wildlife law, or any violations of federal law tiering off of state law. Which is what the "interesting article from Oregon" is about - individual private citizens 1) harvesting snakes in violation of the laws of NJ, OR, and CA ("poaching"), then 2) transporting the contraband across state lines.

All of those defendants were either federal agencies or their Directors (e.g., Dirk Kempthorne was GWB's Secretary of Interior). Those defendants (just like the poachers...) lost in court because they were shown to be in violation of "the law" - either statute or rule. It's like I said before, laws will be enforced - good, bad, or indifferent.

When you're in government - particularly in an enforcement or a leadership role! - you're expected to follow the law. Pretty simple concept. Laws will be enforced. Pretty simple concept. The judicial branch has a vital - a constitutional - oversight role to ensure neither the legislative branch nor the executive branch get away with breaking the law. Pretty simple concept. Both the legislative branch and the executive branch are constantly probing, and often exceeding, the limits of the law. No judicial-branch oversight = no rule of law. No Thank You.

You want to impugn the litigating NGOs? Whatever, be my guest, I am no fan of theirs - though (unlike you?) I would not deny them their rightful place as stakeholders. I don't like their team, but I won't trash the game. The game is the game, there is no other one. You're either a player, or you're a spectator. If you're a player, play to win. Play to beat the team you don't like. Pretty simple concept. Spectators are free to mouth off, but they need to understand they aren't actually in the game. Pretty simple concept. Bitching on the internet does nothing to change facts in the real world.

You think you've got a serious beef with professional wildlife management, the cornerstone of effective wildlife conservation? Conservation being one of the core values of the NAFHA community? Really, I suggest you take some time and think about whether or not you belong here.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 28th, 2017, 8:16 pm 
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Quote:
All of those defendants were either federal agencies or their Directors (e.g., Dirk Kempthorne was GWB's Secretary of Interior). Those defendants (just like the poachers...) lost in court because they were shown to be in violation of "the law" - either statute or rule. It's like I said before, laws will be enforced - good, bad, or indifferent.


If you have any clue then you must you understand that many cases don't get to court or show any violation of "the law". Has anyone ever heard the phrase "settled out of court "? Its the "cornerstone" of all Lawsuit-happy organizations. Its easier to pay somebody off then go thru all the nonsense. When it comes to "professional" wildlife management, agencies often give in to special interest groups without the threat of lawsuit's. Private stakeholders get screwed and they never have a chance.

The cases mentioned were just some of the ESA related cases and only a fraction of what goes on with this crap. They also demonstrate how lawsuits are one of the strong-arm tactics used by special interest groups to profit from and manipulate the law. The defensive grandstanding rhetoric is ridiculous. The Center for Biological Diversity lied about the large payoffs they received and where the money was going. Its how all big activist groups operate. They prey on and are defended by those who have no idea about the truth.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: February 28th, 2017, 9:56 pm 
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You think you've got a serious beef with professional wildlife management, the cornerstone of effective wildlife conservation? Conservation being one of the core values of the NAFHA community? Really, I suggest you take some time and think about whether or not you belong here.


Clearly my serious beef is with fraudulent self serving and insidious wildlife conservation. So lets not try to twist the facts. Jimi I wont take this off the air, Like so many others when you get backed into a corner you turn to grandstanding BS and nonsense. Many times you have confronted me when you clearly have no idea what your talking bout. You just blurt out anything that "sounds" good to defend your buddy's, your own belief's etc. And are flat out wrong. You have been a well spring of misinformation. This forum has been particular egregious in terms of its use by academia and their groupies when it comes to spreading lies. I enjoy confronting these lies. Forums are place of information exchange. What a person chose's to believe is up to them. I provide a much needed interjection for the other side of the story in theses threads.

Jimi, Its seems like you talk more about bobcat's, mountain lions and bears then you do about reptiles. Maybe you should take some time and think about whether or not you belong here(a reptile based forum). Most wildlife employees I talk to have virtually no understanding about what goes on when it comes to the true impetuous behind horrific legislation including rules, regulations, laws that all fall under that heading. They are a bad source of information in this area.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting article on poaching in Oregon....
PostPosted: March 1st, 2017, 10:13 am 

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Like so many others when you get backed into a corner you turn to grandstanding BS and nonsense. Many times you have confronted me when you clearly have no idea what your talking bout. You just blurt out anything that "sounds" good to defend your buddy's, your own belief's etc. And are flat out wrong. You have been a well spring of misinformation.


Huh. I think the term is projection. As in, you are projecting.

And for God's sake, could you clean up your written English? E.g., it's buddies, not "buddy's", it's beliefs, not "belief's". Wellspring, not "well spring". Jesus. It's distracting. And it's detracting. Ernie, you're kind of a jerk, and you seem a little bit crazy, but I have always maintained that you are not completely wrong. You would get farther towards your objectives - whatever they are - with a little more care in your written material, a little finer grit on your grinder, and - how else to put this? - a little less whacko. You do have some good material. You just bury it so damn deep in the jerky hard-to-read whacko stuff, it detracts and distracts from the higher-quality stuff.

Quote:
Jimi, Its seems like you talk more about bobcat's, mountain lions and bears then you do about reptiles. Maybe you should take some time and think about whether or not you belong here(a reptile based forum).


Huh. Thanks for the opportunity to ponder 1) why I come here, and 2) what I talk about when I come. It's a good exercise, and I recommend it to you in return. So - let me explain why I talk about diverse wildlife issues and not only herps.

1) I answer questions. For example, most recently Richard Hoyer asked me some questions about the management of lions and bears where I live, and I answered them. Pretty simple concept. One would think.

2) The agencies that manage herps also manage hairy wild animals. Those same agencies therefore interact with the people who want to interact with hairy wild animals. Understanding how the agencies interact with those other people, would help herpers understand how they could interact with the agencies.

Know this: the people who actually do interact with hairy wild animals didn't passively receive their interaction privileges from some cheerful fairy - they had to go fight for them. And not just once - they have to stay on it, year in and year out. I want herpers to understand how to engage this system, so they enjoy better privileges too. Part of the engagement will entail educating the agencies also, because you're right, in many cases the agencies don't know herps nearly well enough.

3) There are many, many similarities between hairy wild animals, and herps. I think if the agencies were shown some of those similarities, they wouldn't so often try to manage them so exceptionally differently.

This gets back to herpers understanding, and then engaging, the agencies. Within any agency there are many separate parts, many of which don't have much occasion to talk to each other. They certainly don't have much occasion to talk to each other's stakeholders. Personally, I think if herpers were "handed over to" the agency guys who manage the hairy wild animals that people want to interact with, the herpers would have a much more productive and enjoyable time interacting with the agencies. Because those agency guys have - how to put this? - had the natural human tendency to not want to deal with other people beaten out of them. Now, some of them actually like interacting with other people. Crazy, right? They accept the fact that it is part of their public service duty. And doing it well means they are doing their job well - a basic need common to all people.

4) Herpers might think they have little in common with the people who want to interact with hairy wild animals. This is a colossal mistake. Herpers have much to learn from these people - particularly, how to stay on the case to keep their wildlife-interaction privileges. Herpers and other hunters share a great deal of common cause and common values (love of the outdoors, a conservation ethic, etc).

I could go on and on with my self-serving campaign of misinformation. Ha, what a twisted joke. But this coffee break has been long enough, I need to stop blurting & grandstanding and go earn my salt.

cheers


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