Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

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Bryan_Hughes
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Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Bryan_Hughes » July 26th, 2010, 6:35 pm

Obviously well covered in the old-forum, and gone now. This body of knowledge from this community is very useful, and it should be replaced. Please give your take.

Here's some fuel: http://www.wxii12.com/news/24370643/detail.html

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by jdustin » July 26th, 2010, 6:50 pm

There was an interesting study by Sean Bush (the venom ER guy) on the benefits/damage of using the extractor type suction kit on snake bite.
I can't seem to find the full article anywhere, but check this out:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11055564

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Bryan_Hughes » July 26th, 2010, 6:56 pm

jdustin wrote:There was an interesting study by Sean Bush (the venom ER guy) on the benefits/damage of using the extractor type suction kit on snake bite.
I can't seem to find the full article anywhere, but check this out:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11055564
That's a good one, thanks. Do you know of any similar that specifically deals with mouth suction, or the old cut n' suck?

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by jason folt » July 26th, 2010, 8:47 pm

No. No discussion needed.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Biker Dave » July 26th, 2010, 10:59 pm

By the time you start sucking its already taken effect I would think. Unless you can get your lips between the fangs and the flesh just before the bite you're screwed.

DAve

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by justinm » July 27th, 2010, 4:52 am

Dr. Fry has discussed this ad nauseum and you can't suck the venom out. Staying calm and getting treatment is your best option.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Talusman » July 28th, 2010, 6:36 am

If I was hiking with Angelina Jolie and the potential was to get bit in the "nether regions" - then YES. In fact I would have her practice the procedure many, many, many times. :thumb:

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Paul White » July 28th, 2010, 12:49 pm

don't even joke about a rattler bite to the junk :? :? That just h urts to think about. can you imagine the scarring?

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Talusman » July 28th, 2010, 1:08 pm

The Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding up a canyon. The Lone Ranger stopped to take a leak. While he was relieving himself, peeing on the canyon wall, a rattlesnake shot out and bit him on the "junk". The Lone Ranger screamed for Tonto. Tonto ran over to the LR, and stared in disbelief. The LR asked Tonto if he knew what to do. Tonto replied "I not know what to do, will ride into town and find out". Tonto rode like the wind into town. He found a doctor, but the doctor was unable to help him ( the LR didn't have insurance). Tonto then asked the doctor what to do to treat snakebite. The doctor replied "make X cuts over each fang puncture and suck the venom out". Tonto contemplated the information, then asked the doctor "what happen if Tonto not do this?". The doctor replied "the Lone Ranger will die". Tonto, armed with the treatment information, rode back to the Lone Ranger. The Lone Ranger asked what the doctor said.

Tonto replied "doctor says you going to die, Kemosabe".

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Bryan_Hughes » July 28th, 2010, 4:17 pm

John Vanek wrote:Why is this even a discussion? NO! How is this old wive's tale still in circulation? Everything from my Wilderness First Responder handbook, to my Boy Scouts of America Handbook says DO NOT DO this. Also, if you think about, how would it even work? Its not like you can suck blood out of a pin prick.
It's not a discussion. The reason I asked is to regain this body of knowledge from the people who know best, for easy reference to help dispel this crap when it comes up ... which it unfortunately still does.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 2nd, 2010, 10:57 pm

I am adamantly pro cut and suck. Please think about it for a moment, does it not make sense to get as much venom out as possible right away? Unless the venom hits a vein directly, in which case you are probably going to die, the venom does stay put for a very very long time. You most certainly can remove a lot of it and how stupid is it to allow a deadly toxin to just sit there until it gets absorbed? Forget what you read from liability constrained publications. Such is the world we live in today, no one can print anything but the liability-approved namby pamby stuff. Of course getting treatment is number one, proper antivenom in a hospital, I don’t think anyone argues against that. But removing the venom, especially the necrotic types, can prevent a lot of tissue destruction and multiple days in the hospital and in a best case, virtually turn a bad bite into a dry bite. If you are way out away from help, getting the venom out will save your life, period. For some proof, Martin Crimmins experimented with dogs and showed that fluid suctioned from a bitten dog and injected into another dog killed the second dog, and the bitten dog lived. The venom was successfully removed in a dramatic demonstration. It is not an old wives tale. Ask any body who has lost a finger, what would you do differently? I’ll bet they all say, remove the venom if you can.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by gbin » October 3rd, 2010, 6:30 am

It's been quite a while now since I last looked at the available evidence, but I do recall that even a long time ago there was already ample evidence demonstrating that the old cut-and-suck method of snakebite first aid is a bad idea. It does little if anything to remove meaningful amounts of venom, and the risks (e.g. of causing nerve damage) associated with having an inexperienced person cutting into the snakebite victim, especially on something like a hand or foot, are great.

I imagine the Sawyer vacuum syringe Extractor similarly does little if anything to remove meaningful amounts of snake venom; using it immediately - and I mean immediately, not a few minutes later - after the bite probably would be about the only chance of it doing any good at all. But at least it's not harmful like cut-and-suck is. On that last point, the linked Bush et al. 2000 study of the Extractor wasn't a fair test, so their statement that "an injury pattern may be associated with the device" should be discounted. They "applied [the Extractor] 3 minutes following envenomation and left [it] in place for 30 minutes," whereas Sawyer's instructions for the Extractor's use clearly state "Alternate between fang holes every two-three minutes for 15 minutes. Discontinue use after 15 minutes." There's obviously quite a difference between applying vacuum to a skin surface for 2-3 minutes at at time for a maximum of 15 minutes, and instead applying it for 30 minutes straight (leading one to wonder why Bush et al. adopted the unrepresentative methodology that they did). Use any device in a manner different than it's manufacturer intends and, well, I guess you get what you deserve.

I can speak from plenty of firsthand experience, by the way, of an excellent use for the Extractor that Sawyer doesn't even mention. If you're spending time in an area inhabited by bot flies, I highly recommend having an Extractor on hand to pull the bots out pretty quickly and easily. It works way better than duct tape for this purpose, and I won't even bother to address the more colorful but less (or totally in)effective treatments folks sometimes recommend such as strapping a piece of raw bacon over the bot, etc. :)

Gerry

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 3rd, 2010, 9:01 am

My 1st bite, in 75, the doctors had no clue what to do, and LITERALLY consulted a Boy Scout manual, which reccomended cut/suction. They unfortunantly didn't have a 'snakebite kit' so improvised a suction device from large syringes and tubing, and spent 30-40 min trying to suck venom out, (after cutting X's at the puncture sites) some 45 min (or so) after the bite.... I nearly lost my arm...
Image
a couple of days later, after debreding
Image
This April, I had a moment of complacency/carelessness in the field and caught a fang in the finger, through a bag. Immeadiatly after getting tagged, I saw a bit of venom at the puncture site and instinctivly stuck my finger in my mouth and sucked. This is as bad as the bite got... over the course of several weeks...
Image
Image
I'm not saying suction made any difference... the bites were too different to compare... the 1st a very large, deep evenomation (the 4 ft helli hung on for like 5 sec. pumping his jaws)... the other a shallow hit from one fang, through a bag.
I guess my point would be, that right after a bite, it is instinctive to try to get the venom out, and Immeadiate suction within several seconds MAY help a little... but after 30 sec. or so... forget it... ain't gonna make any difference... jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by justinm » October 3rd, 2010, 11:21 am

Jim,

It's not going to help. Your blood stream will carry the venom away too quickly for suction to have any real affect.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 3rd, 2010, 12:32 pm

justinm wrote:Jim,

It's not going to help. Your blood stream will carry the venom away too quickly for suction to have any real affect.
Well... I do speak from experiance... and on the shallow bite I was sucking on it within 1 to 1.5 sec... and am sure I got a little venom out... The first bite... no way suction at any time would have made any difference. My experiance has been that within 2 sec after a bite, muscle tissue at the site starts cramping up and blood drains AWAY from the site. For my 1st bite... within 30 seconds after the bite, I had a egg-sized white cramping knot at the injection site, and the pain was OUTRAGIOUS! The last shallow bite, I don't think the fang actually made it into muscle tissue, but rather the venom was depostited just under the skin, so I was able to get a little out before it mixed with subcutaneous lymph fluids. I experianced very little pain from the shallow bite, but the onset of neurological symptoms was almost immeadiate (10 sec...numb lips... 1 min... whole head, both hands/feet numb, and mentally disorientated)
Unless there are studies definatively showing that no suction, in ANY circumstance, (including administration of suction within seconds) does ANY amount of good... I'll continue to believe what I think my personal experiances suggest. That said... I do believe that any suction after say...3 to 5 sec won't make a difference. jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Daryl Eby » October 3rd, 2010, 12:47 pm

hellihooks wrote:... and mentally disorientated
How could you tell ??? :lol:

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 3rd, 2010, 1:18 pm

I’m not here to argue so don’t take this the wrong way. I self inject with four different venoms every fourteen days or so. I know what venoms feel like in me probably more than most people you know. I do know that injected subcutaneous, it absorbs very slowly. Like I wrote before, if it hits a vein, you are screwed, it will obviously move a lot very fast. In that case, though, you will not have the massive local destruction of a bolus sitting there digesting you, either. Antivenom treatment will quickly save you if received and you will not have a lot of local damage. Venous injections are fairly rare and total bad luck, but they do happen. The neurotoxic elapid venoms usually work fairly slowly to the point of actual respiratory failure. It is fine to use a pressure bandage and buy a lot of time to get proper treatment. The highly necrotic hemotoxic venoms begin to damage tissue immediately and cause a reaction as your body tries to isolate the bolus and prevent it spreading. It actually surrounds it and tries to build a wall. That makes it swell pretty fast, it’s not the venom, it’s your immune system doing that to try to save you. If you can lance that like a boil, you can most certainly cause a drainage without much risk of severing veins and nerves. The venom will kill those things and all flesh around it for certain, and that damage can never be undone. Maybe someday it will grow out, or be cut out, or get back to normal if you are lucky, but damaged flesh is gone forever. You can easily fix a cut, even a pretty bad one. No one is saying use a rusty hunting knife, you can use a razor blade that cuts very clean and neat and not much. You only need a very small way to drain. Your body wants to get the venom out if it can. With some venoms in a small area like a finger, you are going to lose the finger, don’t worry about a cut finger. If it swells even a little, the circulation is cut off, and so is your finger three days later. To me it is worth taking a chance that you can avoid that by letting the venom out, flush it with all the saline you can get and go get proper treatment. Hopefully you never have to find out, it’s just a discussion, but I hope nobody loses a finger or worse when you can minimize the venom and the resulting damage the old fashioned way. You might find yourself in a situation where help is just a little too far and you have to take charge of the situation or you are going to suffer badly. There is no need to give up, be proactive and save your butt.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 3rd, 2010, 2:17 pm

Daryl Eby wrote:
hellihooks wrote:... and mentally disorientated
How could you tell ??? :lol:
No doubt... :lol: Kinda like wondering if you're stupid... :crazyeyes:
Lets just say I've had enough 'altered-reality' experiances in my life to know when something is 'off'... :oops: I got us lost trying to find the hsp (my Mom used to work at, in my hometown)... granted, alot of rd work had been done on surface streets for freeway access... but my impaired cognitive function absolutly compounded the problem... If I had to compare it to anything... it was like snorting Amyl-nitrate, while on Morphine (never mind how I know that... :crazyeyes: :oops: ) jim
Upscale...As I said, for my first bite, which was a very deep intramusclar injection... I don't think suction at any point (nor could you have cut deep enough without doing major damage) would have done any good. As for subcutenous envenomations... I find it hard to argue with your proactive venom-removal paradigm, to certain extents, in certain situations. Every reputable doctor says; "Every bite is different". there are so many variables to take into consideration... including in my case the possibility of some accquired immunity, from my 2 previous serious bites. I sometimes suspect given the almost immeadiate onset of neurological symptoms (and the large amount of capillaries in the fingers) that I may have received a venous injection, and was just very lucky that this locality of helleri had an unusually high degree of neurotoxic components, and a correspondingly lower amount of necrosis-causing components.
As a former intravenous, intramusculer, subcutaneous drug abuser (clean/sober over 20 yrs)... I still know the differences in symptom/effect onset... and numb lips in 10 sec makes me suspect a small vein was hit. point is.... even I can't say for certain what actually occured, from a physiological standpoint...the best I can do is make some somewhat educated guesses, from my percieved experiances. jim
BTW... is 'Upscale' from the movie 'Idiocracy'?... frigging hilarious movie... :thumb:

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 3rd, 2010, 3:14 pm

“Every bite is different”. No doubt about that, I agree totally. We could never give an absolute answer to this. There are instances where either view would be wrong or right. Very interesting topic. I appreciate the input , experiences and photos shared. I also got a single fang EDB bite that landed me in the hospital for four days when I was seventeen, I have always regretted that I didn't do more to try and get the venom out right away.
Upscale is from the day I first got internet access and looked up "not allowed" and had to think of some name that wasn’t being used, simple as that. But I do like that movie, more and more of it comes true all the time, which is scary.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 3rd, 2010, 3:25 pm

Upscale is from the day I first got internet access and looked up "not allowed" and had to think of some name that wasn’t being used, simple as that. But I do like that movie, more and more of it comes true all the time, which is scary.

My bad... it was 'UupGrade'... not Upscale... :crazyeyes: how has the self-immunization regime been going? and why? I've actually toyed with the idea myself, but ain't about ti admit that publicly...DOH!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 3rd, 2010, 4:06 pm

I have used eastern coral snake, pygmy rattler, eastern diamondback, wagler’s temple viper, water moccasin, southern copperhead, death adder (laevis) and naja naja over the years. The last four I am doing now. Quite resistant to pretty much all of them now. I have a theory that Alzheimer’s Disease can be prevented, and hopefully cured completely, by using a specific recipe of venoms as you would in immunotherapy. I believe it is possible to mimic the early indicators with venoms and stimulate your system to produce the resistance that people who develop the disease are incapable of or fail to do. Not about snake bite at all, showing off, free handling, parlor tricks or being superman. I just want to cure Alzheimer’s before it is too late for me, and if it works for you too, yay you. Don’t want to rob this thread, but that’s why I have felt the effects of a lot of venom, including the “ants crawling on lips” elapid overdose too. Studied this subject for many many years too, but my respect for minute and serious amounts of venom comes from the inside out not just reading about it. You can use a rat but I think I can tell you way more in plain English sometimes. Again, don’t want to change the thread. Based on my slightly weird experience with venoms, I’m pro cut and suck for getting venom out of your body if you can, depending on the circumstances and availability of traditional accepted treatment.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by gbin » October 3rd, 2010, 4:42 pm

So are you just doing all of that on your own, Upscale, and not as a part of any bona fide scientific study? If so, too bad, as you won't have any way of knowing what your treatments actually have or haven't done to/for you over the long-term, nor of course what they might or might not do to/for others.

No offense, but I'm going to stick with recognized experts and the evidence they've amassed through more than just self-experimentation (even if I can't specifically recall all of that evidence and haven't looked at any of it in a good while, as I mentioned): Cutting is likely enough to cause harm when done by an amateur that it is strongly discouraged as snakebite first aid. Sucking (by whatever means) does little if any good, but (depending on the means) no harm, either. Getting to proper medical treatment in quick and safe fashion is best - after avoiding getting bitten in the first place, of course. ;)

Gerry

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 3rd, 2010, 5:37 pm

Threads not about me, maybe for another time. Cutting and sucking was the only way throughout recorded history until 1896, and quite accepted until about twenty years ago, it is not new or untried and unproven. Actually quite a lot more evidence (centuries) that it works than any fairly recent evidence (?) that it does not. I didn’t want it to be a slam dunk that everybody agrees not to do it, because I for one, do not agree. I have had my say. Suit yourself.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by gbin » October 3rd, 2010, 6:12 pm

Upscale wrote:Threads not about me, maybe for another time...
Understood and agreed.

I'm compelled to correct one thing you said in your last post, though: I'm unfortunately old enough to know that most (virtually all?) snakebite professionals and medical people who listened to them were already strongly discouraging at least the cut part of cut-and-suck first aid for snakebite at least 30 years ago. It might have been longer (even much longer) ago when cut-and-suck stopped being generally accepted, too, but that's when I first studied the subject of snakebite and my knowledge of it (and of the evidence pertaining to it) begins.

Gerry

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 3rd, 2010, 7:00 pm

My diamondback bite was 32 years ago. I was selling snakes to Bill Haast and reading everything I could get my hands on, which meant getting to every library I could, etc. No internet, rolls of microfilm! I’m fifty. I am against cutting an x, and I think you are more correct that it was more like thirty years ago that fell out of favor. I am old school, no fear to self experiment, would probably stitch myself, treat myself, any number of foolish things, so take my opinion for what it’s worth. If it happens to me, I will post all about it and we’ll see how it goes. I tend to learn lessons the hard way, which is how I got to this opinion in the first place, I guess. :?

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 3rd, 2010, 8:48 pm

Upscale wrote:My diamondback bite was 32 years ago. I was selling snakes to Bill Haast and reading everything I could get my hands on, which meant getting to every library I could, etc. No internet, rolls of microfilm! I’m fifty. I am against cutting an x, and I think you are more correct that it was more like thirty years ago that fell out of favor. I am old school, no fear to self experiment, would probably stitch myself, treat myself, any number of foolish things, so take my opinion for what it’s worth. If it happens to me, I will post all about it and we’ll see how it goes. I tend to learn lessons the hard way, which is how I got to this opinion in the first place, I guess. :?
WOW... My 1st helli bite was 35 yrs ago (75)...and I am 53 and am REALLY stubborn about learning things the hard way... my second bite was in 76... ONE YEAR LATER... :roll: my 3rd was this spring, so I did manage to go 34 yrs without getting tagged... :D
AND BTW... I met Bill Haast when I was like 5 yrs old at the Miami sepentarium, which was a big part of my 'from-then-on 'abibing intrest in reptiles. Well... they say everyone out there has a twin... and except for the 3 yrs difference in age... :shock: :lol: :lol: jim
Christ... we even like the same movies... :lol:

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by stlouisdude » October 4th, 2010, 7:01 pm

I avoid having to suck the wound by wearing a knight's armor while herping. With thisI can safely free handle any snake slow enough to capture. Works great for walking through cottonmouth filled swamps and rattlesnake infested weeds. I'm screwed if lightning rolls in, though! I have a rubber suit for amphibian hunting, and well, you can get them at weirdo sex shops.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Bryan_Hughes » October 4th, 2010, 7:42 pm

stlouisdude wrote:I avoid having to suck the wound by wearing a knight's armor while herping. With thisI can safely free handle any snake slow enough to capture. Works great for walking through cottonmouth filled swamps and rattlesnake infested weeds. I'm screwed if lightning rolls in, though! I have a rubber suit for amphibian hunting, and well, you can get them at weirdo sex shops.
Excellent idea. This would work a lot better than my current plan of slashing my legs and arms prior to stepping into the field, just in case.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by stlouisdude » October 4th, 2010, 10:13 pm

The other thing you can do is inject yourself with venom regularly, so you're ready "just in case". I personally schedule cobra bites for Tuesday and Thursday afternoons, while saving Saturday mornings for my rattlesnake envenomation session. Then if I am still feeling up to it, I go do a little bare-faced beekeeping in the apple orchard. Good idea to keep up to date on my bee vaccination and the gf doesn't mind pulling stingers out of the inside of my nose. Worst part is the damn buzzing, one's been stuck in my ear for a week now! Well, time to walk across some hot coals and lay on my bed of nails, have to get up early and walk naked in the snow.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 5th, 2010, 4:41 am

I only brought that up because when I write that venom stays at the entry point and does not move quickly away, I know from actually feeling it in me over forty times in the last couple of years. Not from repeating something I think I remember hearing about from somebody who I can’t recall.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by gbin » October 5th, 2010, 5:01 pm

Upscale wrote:I only brought that up because when I write that venom stays at the entry point and does not move quickly away, I know from actually feeling it in me over forty times in the last couple of years. Not from repeating something I think I remember hearing about from somebody who I can’t recall.
Not sure if that last part was meant for me, but if so, it wasn't appropriate. I did indeed research the subject of snakebite and its treatment many years ago, and I did a good job of it. That I can no longer cite all of the statistics or their sources off the top of my head doesn't mean that I'm misrepresenting their summation. I'm not. All those years ago the consensus among experts was already not to cut-and-suck as first aid for snakebite, and I'm not aware that there's been any reversal at all in this - and such a reversal would require rigorous data, not the personal impressions of someone into self-experimentation. (I'm afraid there's no way that I believe you can reliably tell how far and fast venom is traveling inside you based solely on your perception of how it feels.) Sorry, Upscale, but I think it would be a real tragedy if someone seriously hurt him/herself or another person by following your advice.

Gerry

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 5th, 2010, 7:13 pm

Not directed at you, just felt I was being made fun of or something. I don’t care about what some supposed expert said and I am not seeing any definitive links or whatever that support either side. Let me say, I can tell you by feel exactly what is happening inside of me every time, very specifically. How can you not believe that? I don’t get why you would think such a thing, doesn’t even make sence to me from where I am coming from. Gigantic duh, of course you can feel it and tell every second exactly where it is going (or not) how fast, how bad it is, if you are near a nerve, how deep, difference compared to same venoms or other venoms, the taste you experience, everything. Can tell coral snake from death adder like some nerds compare wine. Not many so called experts can do that, could they? How would they know what I know? You have people saying they think it goes too fast to do any good to try to get it out, based on what exactly? I say, based on my experience, which is quite a lot when you think about it, it does not move that fast and I do believe you could fairly easily assist getting it out of you. Not arguing the merit or craziness of immunizing with venoms, just trying to contribute from the perspective of feeling it sit there a zillion times, I disagree that it travels so fast that you can’t do anything about it. I have felt effects on my face from venom within a few seconds. Doesn’t mean the venom went to my face. You feel a splinter in your toe in a second in your brain, the splinter is still only in your toe. It can be a complicated thing, I could write you a book, but for just a quick general thing, trust me or don’t, it’s one opinion somewhat explained, you can get the venom out if you want to. I would want to, and I would. I am not suggesting you cut yourself to the point of serious injury, that’s idiotic. But an envenomation is a serious potentially disfiguring or life threatening event first. I see lots of pictures of melted fingers of those who did not try to get the venom out. I would not fear having a small cut, in fact venom feels way worse than a stupid little cut, get real. Just offering my one opinion, the first post said give your take. Do your homework, look up what all the experts say and cut and suck or don’t, do whatever you want.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by ACK! » October 6th, 2010, 12:51 pm

"NPD" Gerry, strikes again..... :crazyeyes: :roll: :sleep:



( Click on the yellow acronym )

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by gbin » October 6th, 2010, 4:09 pm

Upscale wrote:Not directed at you, just felt I was being made fun of or something...
I understand, Upscale; thanks for clarifying that. For what it's worth, I certainly see your personal experience as being of value, just not as much value as you apparently do. The way I look at it, the statistics compile the personal experiences of a great many people, and in a way - with expert evaluation by people who have the training, equipment and (to at least a greater degree than the snakebite victims themselves) objectivity - that makes the most out of those experiences.

On what you can and can't tell by feeling the results of your self-experiments, I'm afraid I'll have to stand by what I said. Certainly you consciously experience various sensations, and certainly they are telling you something about the venoms' actions in your body. But unless you're hooked up to various monitors, collecting a series of blood samples, etc. during your experiments, you have no way of knowing what your body is experiencing that you are not consciously aware of at the time, nor any objective means of evaluating what you do perceive. The only thing I can see about the situation that is "duh, of course" is that personal perceptions are not very trustworthy, especially all by themselves.

Gerry

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 6th, 2010, 7:30 pm

I think Upscale is ALOT more objective than your average bite subject... dare I say 'clinical'? Some sensations can't be qualified, and possibly poorly quantified. Take full-body fasicillations... doctors may stand there and say "Christ! He's quivering ALL over!!" But they can't know what you know... that your little left toe, your right calf, and your taint... AIN'T. :lol: :lol: They certainly can't know what it FEELS like. That's why ER doctors ask so many questions...Are you a :( or a :cry: . I'm a big believer in objective clinical self-analysis... the trick is both remaining objective, AND knowing enough physiology to recognise what is going on. Say for instance Dr. Bush got tagged... what better definitive analysis could you possibly hope for?
I've developed the ability to drive while literally half asleep. By this I do not mean sleepy or groggy... I mean that the left hemisphere of my brain goes into REM sleep, while the right side continues to drive the car, and think thoughts like "WHOAAA, this is a TRIP!!! I'm asleep and driving my car!!" BTW... I AM trained in neuro-physiology and Brain Imaging.... so I recognize REM sleep when I FEEL it, AND my right eye exhibits the characteristic 'back and forth' motions, which I both feel and 'see'. After driving in that state for roughly 15 min, I 'startle' back to full awakeness, fully refreshed and alert, and able to drive several more hrs feeling fine, before another 'nap' is required.
Science and clinical trials are great, and generally the most reliable tool we have, but don't underestimate objective self-reporting... it can produce results that lab techs would never suspect existed.
So.... who wants to go road-cruising... :lol: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by gbin » October 6th, 2010, 8:56 pm

Just to be clear:

My criticisms aren't of Upscale, but of the self-experimenter's personal feelings method. There's just no way that can stand against a much more rigorous methodology involving a much larger sample size. I'm frankly finding it hard to believe anyone would argue, suggest or even hint otherwise.

We're also not talking about how well sensations (however interesting they might be) are qualified or quantified. At it's heart we're talking about potential for harm, and for averting harm. These are easy things to obtain good statistical samples on, and folks have done so.

And finally, as to who those folks are, we're not just talking your average doctor. There have over the years been more than a few people out there, some M.D.s and some not, who through considerable experience (including firsthand involvement in a great many snakebite cases) and study have developed legitimate expertise on snakebite and its treatment, and who have made great use of the wealth of historical data available to them.

As Upscale said, folks can do whatever they want. Me, I'm going with recognized experts who make use of all the data they can get their hands on concerning snakebite and its treatment (or mistreatment, as the case may be), not the guy who injects himself with snake venoms and keeps track of how it feels to him - even if the guy were Sean Bush or some other luminary in the field. It's about methodology, not personality.

And I'd be delighted to go road-cruising with you sometime, jim, but I think I'd rather drive, if you don't mind. ;)

Gerry

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 7th, 2010, 4:26 am

The forum is here for “extended discussion” and the question was asked. I had my say, and since I was the only one “for” one of the choices presented, figured I would elaborate on where I was coming from a little bit, that’s all. If you don’t agree with one side or the other, you are free to elaborate, which we have done.

Hey gbin I think you sell yourself much too short. You can most certainly make very minute observations of something like this. I would recommend reading a book called “Who goes first?: The Story of Self-Experimentation in Medicine” to get a better idea of just how crucial this type of observation has been to research. I’m telling you that you can quite reliably tell what is going on, you don’t need somebody to tell you what is happening. All the monitors and all that would only confirm for an observer what you are saying. You might not know the ph of your urine or some lab test result but you could probably tell if it was normal or not just from peeing. Venom is not subtle, it’s not hard at all to feel it, in fact all you do is feel it. It’s one of the sucky parts of having venom in you, trust me on that if you haven’t found out. A cut is not comparable in any way to a snake bite. A cut is like a little boo boo. Venom will digest you in some cases and if you don’t treat it, probably will kill you or be very bad. Every bite should be treated per the circumstance at that time, not by a treatment recipe. The first aid treatment outline you see on all the web sites online are extremely general to the over all snake bitten world. In fact, from a very small snake to a big one, different kinds, bite location, etc. there will be some tweaking of the treatment you would actually require or follow in almost every instance. There are many many instances where procedures fall out of favor only to come back later. Right now, from searching around on line, the general consensus is do not cut, it’s o.k. to suction with a device following instructions. We may see that change someday so there’s plenty of room to have another opinion. Right now, my opinion is considered wrong. I know that. Makes it sweeter if you are proven right later on. ;)

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Daryl Eby » October 7th, 2010, 5:33 am

Upscale wrote:I’m telling you that you can quite reliably tell what is going on, you don’t need somebody to tell you what is happening. All the monitors and all that would only confirm for an observer what you are saying. You might not know the ph of your urine or some lab test result but you could probably tell if it was normal or not just from peeing. Venom is not subtle, it’s not hard at all to feel it, in fact all you do is feel it.
Upscale,
I'm sure it is true that you can feel and precisely describe your perceptions of many effects of venom. Your ability to compare those perceptions to your perceptions of past envenomations would likely give those observations added significance (of course the opposite could also be true as you gain tolerance/immunity, increase your pain threshold, suffer nerve damage, alter your lymphatic system, etc). The fact that you have total control of the venom volume, locality, and depth of delivery also adds to the relevance of your observations. Another definite plus is that your observations will not be clouded by the fear, panic, confusion, etc, experienced by the typical snake bite victim.

HOWEVER, your observations are still JUST based on your perceptions. While your perceptions may (or may not) in fact be extremely precise and more objective than the typical bite victim, they are still limited. As you know, venom is extremely complex. It's not a single protein, enzyme, or toxin, but a whole stew of nasties. The most observable effects are not always the most significant and not all components spread or take effect at the same rates. While you are busy noticing the burning in your calf, the tingling in your toes, the swelling in your thigh, the numbness in you lips, and the cloudiness of your vision, you may be completely unaware of any number of potentially much more serious impacts. The localization of certain observable symptoms does not necessarily mean that a meaningful percentage of the venom's most lethal constituents remain in the affected area.

All that said, I would definitely try to suck immediately and would strongly consider cutting, depending on the variables involved. As you've stated, most cuts would be minor compared to the potential devastation of a bite. Heck, if I was bitten on the tip of my pinky by a large Mojave, I'd strongly consider cutting it off. However, I'd be loath to recommend someone else take a knife to themselves because the risk of cutting a major blood vessel (and perhaps bleeding to death in response to a dry or even non-venomous bite) should never be underestimated.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 7th, 2010, 7:30 am

Gerry,
Just to be clear, I consider myself a man of science and hope to eventually do applied research in a lab setting, in biological psychology. My point is that self-experimentation and internal 'perceptions' can provide avenues towards accessing knowledge that would never be considered/condoned in the research paradigm. Take my example of driving half-asleep. It has NEVER been imagined that different hemispheres of the brain could independently enter different wave states (I'm guessing beta/REM) at the same time, and there is no way any researcher would attempt to test this, for a variety of reasons... not he least being he would be laughed out of the University. I hope to one day be able to try to recreate my observed experiance under laboratory conditions and get the results on paper. When and IF what I suggest can be proven through the clinical laboratory paradigm... that's Nobel Prize stuff!
Every experiment / research project / medical intervention has it's roots, or beginnings in the observation of phenomenon... whether it is self-reported or the Clinician ask questions of patients.... In snakebites... the patient (if able) reports symptoms such as numbness, pain, disorientation, ect. Things that science has no way to quantify, or in some instances (like with pain) even identify, other THAN BY the clinicians observations/perceptions : "The patient seemes to be disorientated" Technology is used to confirm and quantify what we inately know.
The question really is... does suction do more harm than good. And since EVER bite is different, no set of experiments can difinitively say that no suction, under ANY set of circumstances, is the way to go. It can ONLY say, that in the circumstances we set up... suction proved ineffective.
As I said before... my 1st deep intramuscular bite... suction made NO difference... and wasted at least an hr, before I recieved any anti-venin... so probably contributed to me almost losing my arm (they repeatedly asked permission... :roll: ) My last subcutonous bite... I'm glad I was able to immeadiatly suck a bit of venom out... I'M SURE it helped... :thumb: jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 7th, 2010, 7:58 am

If a hillbilly gets bit and Dr. Sean Bush get bit and both describe exactly the same thing, fair or not, the hillbilly’s observations will be doubted and the word of the Dr. will be seen to carry a lot more weight. In reality, it was the same information, though. When small pox broke out in Boston in 1721 a black slave told his master about an old trick they used back in Africa of scratching a thorn into an infected person and scratching the healthy people to prevent it. A farmer was the first one in America to try it out on his wife and kids. Only when a prominent medical doctor wrote about it a whole seventy three years later did it become acceptable and guess who got credit for “inventing” it? It was probably considered an old wives tale or wrong until a doctor gave it the okey dokey. What about the people from 1721 to 1794? Some probably went and tried it anyway, and some probably said lets wait until 1794. I just think about someone sitting there thinking they are helpless to do anything about it, when maybe a few years from now the advice might be, go ahead and give it a try to get it out if you feel you can safely do so. Trust your gut, as they say.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 7th, 2010, 8:28 am

I never heard the slave/thorn story. But even in the more accepted version... A doctor noticed that milkmaids never caught smallpox,(because they had antigens for the much less virulent cow pox, which they invariably had contracted and recovered from) I may have this story a little off... but the doctor innocculated his wife and child with cowpox(?) and when they recovered from that... smallpox, which they were then resistant to. Not quite self-experimenting, but in theory a good analog. Propose that at a Uni... then look for other career oportunities... :roll: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 7th, 2010, 9:22 am

The slave was named Onesimus, owned by a minister named Cotton Mather. Trust me, this will be a movie one day. Mather convinced a local doctor to give it a try and he began innoculating experiments on his own sons and his slaves and then on over 240 other people. There was a huge religious uproar about interfering with God’s will by using innoculation and Mather and the doctor (Dr. Zabdiel Boyleston) were darn near killed over it. Benjamin Jesty obviously heard about the innoculations and took his family to an infected cow and did the deed. His neighbors actually threw things at the family when they appeared in public and it was considered disgusting to introduce an animal disease and was even feared they might grow horns or change into beasts. Seems silly now though, I hope. It was only after his two sons failed to catch the disease during an epidemic that people took notice. Twenty years later, Edward Jenner began the experiments that he would publish and basically led to the acceptance of vaccination and the outlawing of variolation (basically the thorn scratch method). It’s a really cool story. Will Smith as Onesimus, I can see it now.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Daryl Eby » October 7th, 2010, 9:38 am

hellihooks wrote:Propose that at a Uni... then look for other career oportunities... :roll: :lol: :lol: jim
I'd imagine that lots of cutting edge research and experimentation from past decades would be frowned upon if proposed in 2010. Is this because modern academia is afraid to push the envelope, or because safer and more reliable methodology is now available? Perhaps some of both, but my guess is that it is mainly the latter.

I'd agree that some potentially significant breakthroughs might be delayed or even prevented by the current bias against self experimentation (or rushed human experimentation in general). I'm sure you can also agree that some tragedies are avoided by this strictly limiting and regulating human experimentation. I'd argue that we gain more than we lose by taking an extremely cautious and methodical approach. Not least among the gains is maintaining a high value on human life. "First, do no harm."

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 7th, 2010, 2:18 pm

Daryl Eby wrote:
hellihooks wrote:Propose that at a Uni... then look for other career oportunities... :roll: :lol: :lol: jim
I'd agree that some potentially significant breakthroughs might be delayed or even prevented by the current bias against self experimentation (or rushed human experimentation in general). I'm sure you can also agree that some tragedies are avoided by this strictly limiting and regulating human experimentation. I'd argue that we gain more than we lose by taking an extremely cautious and methodical approach. Not least among the gains is maintaining a high value on human life. "First, do no harm."
Yeah... except when there's money to be made... case in point; "If you took this acne medicine, and had to have your colon removed..." :shock: The phar. Co.'s push drugs on us for every real or imagined complaint (restless leg syndrome?? :shock: ) WITHOUT doing the long-term longitudinal studies... and the lawyers who now specilize in suing the drug co. get rich.... :roll: :x jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by gbin » October 7th, 2010, 6:00 pm

Upscale wrote:... I would recommend reading a book called “Who goes first?: The Story of Self-Experimentation in Medicine” to get a better idea of just how crucial this type of observation has been to research...
hellihooks wrote:... My point is that self-experimentation and internal 'perceptions' can provide avenues towards accessing knowledge that would never be considered/condoned in the research paradigm...
I guess this is one of those times when it would probably be very easy to resolve a misunderstanding if the parties were talking face-to-face, but it is apparently virtually impossible to resolve on an internet message board. I'll try one more time before giving up on the conversation, though...

I never said, let alone argued, that self-experimentation (or any other type of personal experience) is necessarily worthless. I don't believe that it is necessarily worthless. On the contrary, I believe that it can indeed have value. I don't need to be persuaded to adopt this view, as I already hold it. Let me say it one more time, hoping it'll sink in: I believe self-experimentation (and other types of personal experience) can have value.

But there's simply no way that the feelings one person has about his self-experimentation - even the most amazing individual doing the most careful self-experimentation (again, this is not any kind of personal criticism against Upscale) - can possibly match, let alone meaningfully refute, a more objective assessment by experts of a far greater database. More data, especially more rigorously collected and analyzed data, will always have greater predictive power (e.g. in this case, in terms of what the risks are of various snakebite treatments). Don't get it? Oh well. Don't agree? Fine. But please don't persist in acting as if I didn't know or had disagreed that there is any value in self-experimentation (and other types of personal experience). Here it is still one more time, just for good measure: I believe self-experimentation (and other types of personal experience) can have value.

Sheesh! :roll:

Gerry

P.S. Sorry if I haven't written this post as kindly as I might have, but I'm really tired of being told essentially the same thing again and again as if it were something I had previously ignored or unreasonably disputed. Plus, the Twins just lost their second divisional series game to the motherf'ing Yankees. :x How anyone can be a fan of a sports team that more or less buys its championships is way beyond me...

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by hellihooks » October 7th, 2010, 6:55 pm

P.S. Sorry if I haven't written this post as kindly as I might have, but I'm really tired of being told essentially the same thing again and again as if it were something I had previously ignored or unreasonably disputed. Plus, the Twins just lost their second divisional series game to the motherf'ing Yankees. :x How anyone can be a fan of a sports team that more or less buys its championships is way beyond me
Well... at least we agree on one thing... our opinion of the Yanks... :evil:
Seriously... I musta gotten off the track somewhere... I thought you were claiming that self-experimentation WAS completely useless. My bad. like i said, I'm a man of science and hope to do science for a living. it's funny... when we conduct experiments or drug trials at CSUSB... we finish the experiment... and then change 1 varible, just a little (like dose) and run the whole damn thing over, and over, and over... each time the experiment just a little different.... sometimes making a big difference result-wise, sometimes negligible.
With snakebite being rife with variables, I have a sneaking suspicion that not enough trials have been run to ABSOLUTLEY say suction can NEVER help, in ANY circumstances. My self-report in my last bite will continue to read that I think it helped... how much I don't know. So despite the confidence I have in the scientific method, for me, the jurys still out. I'm done... Go Braves (Dodger fan, so I HATE the Giants... :evil: :lol: :lol: ) jim

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 7th, 2010, 9:16 pm

My only point was that venom does not move away from the entry point very quickly unless it hits a vein. I am not an expert, but I believe that to be true based on dozens and dozens of times I have taken note of what it is doing in me. Feeling an injection of venom is quite blunt and obvious, not obscure or mysterious. There are some things about it you can’t know, but whether or not the venom is still right there is probably the one thing you will know for certain. Venom can start a chain reaction of events that do spread or have effect far from where the venom was and still is. It does not have to travel at all for those things to happen. If your heart starts going faster, it does not mean the venom has reached your heart. It is possible to be unconcious or dead without the venom moving at all. It is my opinion that a lot of the venom can be flushed from the entry point by opening the entry fang hole very slightly and either irrigating with a stream of water like saline before you get stitches, or by applying suction. My belief in that would make me have the opinion that cutting and sucking does have some merit as a snake bite first aid measure in instances where the venom is a highly necrotic type, in a spot where it will do irreversible damage or getting to a medical care facility is not possible within a resonable amount of time without risking severe trauma or death. I believe it is possible to have the circumstances just so that cutting and suction becomes the thing to do. I don’t believe it is always useless and completely impossible to do any good, I believe the opposite of that.

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by stlouisdude » October 8th, 2010, 10:41 pm

HMMMM

If you added a dye to the venom and performed a full body scan, would that show where the venom sits or would the venom move independently of the dye? Just thinking outloud here, if this guy is going to inject himself anyway perhaps there is some way to substantiate his perceptions. Of course, getting someone to seek approval for this on a human subject......

BTW upscale, I was just adding a little humor to the convo. Nothing meant to be offensive!

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by WW** » October 9th, 2010, 2:49 am

stlouisdude wrote:HMMMM

If you added a dye to the venom and performed a full body scan, would that show where the venom sits or would the venom move independently of the dye? Just thinking outloud here, if this guy is going to inject himself anyway perhaps there is some way to substantiate his perceptions. Of course, getting someone to seek approval for this on a human subject......
You can design and produce immunological tests (ELISAs) to venom (or individual components) which will pick them up as they enter the wider circulation - basically exactly what the Australian Snake Venom Detection Kit does. These have been used extensively in studies of the pharmacokinetics of venoms and antivenoms.

If Upscale could persuade a medic to take regular blood samples from a site distant from the bitten limb after his self-injections, that might answer some of the questions we are asking here. No idea what the medical ethics implications would be, but it would be interesting.

FWIW, I remember seeing a talk by a French group where they injected Vipera venom intramuscularly in rabbits, excised the bite wound 10 minutes later and sought to quantify the amount of venom in the tissue - the venom was GONE.

Cheers,

WW

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Re: Suck out the venom? Yes or no. Discuss.

Post by Upscale » October 9th, 2010, 5:50 am

Good stuff. I wonder if the venom is all gone so fast, just how does that Australian venom detection kit detect venom at a bite? :!: (I believe it might have something to do with the pressure bandage and making sure the venom stays there?)
And just in case someone is lurking, I volunteer! I’m not shy about putting myself out there just for that reason. If you have something in mind with what I have done, you can find me.

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