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 Post subject: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: July 31st, 2010, 12:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: July 31st, 2010, 5:10 pm 

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Mark,
Nice finds! I love hiking out rattlesnakes in the morning.

Shaun Vought


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: July 31st, 2010, 5:54 pm 

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Kick ass post Mark.

I really enjoyed searching the in situ shots. Good exercise.!

Did all three species come from the same area/canyon??

DBD


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 1st, 2010, 12:16 am 
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Yeah same small wash actually. at most a few hundred yards apart


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2010, 5:03 am 
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Cool post, thanks for sharing!


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2010, 11:06 am 
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Mark, Nice pics but especially the insitu pics. Have you ever considered just taking pics of the animals you find and leaving them alone, instead of pulling everything you find out? you have some great insitu shots and that tells so much more about the animal then a posed picture on a rock. You know that you could go back day after day and see the same animals in the same spots..that usually leads to some great behavioral shots down the line wether its breeding, feeding or just general social behavior. Not saying that you are doing anything wrong, just giving you some food for thought.

-B-


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2010, 5:10 pm 
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Shaun Vought wrote:
Mark,
Nice finds! I love hiking out rattlesnakes in the morning.

Shaun Vought


Me tooooooo. Who needs coffee when you can get up at 7, find a few rattlers before 10 and have that be the absolutely uproarious start to a most magnificent day. Nothing cheered me up for an entire day more than finding rattlesnakes on my morning hikes.

Awesome post. What cool rattlesnake diversity for one canyon!

-Alex


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2010, 8:56 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 3rd, 2010, 10:55 pm 
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Mark,
That is a interesting perspective however 99% of people would not even notice a crot insitu due to their cryptic nature, trying to change the behavior of an animal who's camo is more than adequate to protect them seems pretty silly. You seem to have a pretty good spot there, but just by looking at the insitu pics you have it doesn't seem that most the animals you are finding are going down a hole. Here is a tip if you see an animal you are going to lose (especially crots) just spend 20 or so minutes away from the spot and come back, almost everytime it will come back out. Just think about how long people have been hiking on those trails..PHX has been around for a long time, those snakes have probably seen hundreds if not thousands of people and they are still there. I think that you are very lucky to have a place where you can observe so many species so don't take that for granted, if you disturb those snakes enough you may not ever see some of them again, but if you just observe them you will be able to follow some of them for years...

-B-


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 3:35 am 
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Those are some beautiful animals. sometimes you gotta handle and manipulate herps to get good shots. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. nice post


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 6:51 am 
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Thanks Mike. Couldnt have said it better myself


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 9:20 am 

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Very nice observations…..I particularly appreciated the tigris and the‘one year later’ bit, to me that’s a major highlight of fieldherping, the i.d.’ing of individuals seen in years past.

You just have to weigh your options and consider what’s your priority….. If you can get used to laying off a bit, vs. always trying for the ‘ultimate money shot’ or whatever you may find it’s ten times more rewarding to just slow down/keep your distance and watch the animal behave nondefensively as it remains unaware of your presence…..e.g. seeing how long you can go undetected with it in your sight; watching it scent-trail a female or prey item,or come out and settle into a resting coil while it basks,etc…..

This also comes from seeing productive sites of various types become noticibly less attractive to the snakes.Hard to pinpoint or know exactly what happened in each case but the common thread was what I'd generalize as repeated disturbance focused specifically on the inhabitants and what they'd use for shelter/cover.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 9:28 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 9:38 am 
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Very cool animals! That tiger has an impressive rattle. Not sure what happened with the speck pics that look unfocused...what camera are you using? Have you tried fill flash?

Carl


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 9:57 am 
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Finally! Thanks Carl! The camera i am using is just a canon point and shoot (digital elph). Come to think of it I'm sure you are right about the flash. The speckled had backed against the side of the wash, where i'm sure the lighting wasnt as good as in the open. Mabey i should have manipulated it some more :lol: Outside of a highschool photography class (before digital was common) my knowledge of photography is limited :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 10:33 am 
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Mark,
No need to change the subject..i think that we are having a civil debate here. Please understand that no one is attacking you... when i was quite a bit younger I got very excited and grab almost everything to try to get the perfect picture, I wish someone had really stressed to me how much more rewarding and important it was to just observe. Well eventually someone did and I am an extreamly hands off herper now and I owe that to some of of the more veteran herpers here in AZ who helped culture me to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Really Im just trying to pass the same advice onto you, and so are others here. Not saying that you have to stop playing with some of the animals but nothing beats following a gravid female up till she gives berth, or getting to watch animals breeding, eating, battling ect....good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 11:47 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 2:53 pm 
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That's cool that you guys take the hands off approach to herping, I totally respect what you do. I personally don't herp the same places over and over so if the animal is never seen by human eyes again, no biggie. I can look at my photos of the animals in the same spot every year. Oh and I have seen the same animals under board year after year even after being forced into posing.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 4:28 pm 
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Mike your comparing apples and oranges. Pulling a gravid female rattlesnake out from a rookery site close to the time they usually give birth is not the same as pulling a helleri or ruber out from a board in the spring time when they are generally cold and inactive anyway. Those snakes never seem phased by some quick photos but it's different for a female getting ready to give birth. I guess most people just don't pay attention to that stuff but they should.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 6:02 pm 
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Mark, I love the shots. 'Love the atmosphere and natural lighting. Heck, I don't even mind out-of-phocus shots. (just look at any of my pics and you'll see) These elements make me feel like I was there. I know the technically brilliant stuff we see so frequently here takes lot's of time (and talent) but for my money, the grainy, natural stuff is where my head is at most times.
Thanks for a great post!
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 8:41 pm 
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Brendan wrote:
Mike your comparing apples and oranges. Pulling a gravid female rattlesnake out from a rookery site close to the time they usually give birth is not the same as pulling a helleri or ruber out from a board in the spring time when they are generally cold and inactive anyway. Those snakes never seem phased by some quick photos but it's different for a female getting ready to give birth. I guess most people just don't pay attention to that stuff but they should.


What is the difference? do you think the animal or her unborn babies are going to be harmed in the process? the guy is out taking pictures. Its bad enough people give someone a hard time for collecting, even when in there legal rights. But for taking pictures, come on. I have seen your photos, they are not all in situ.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 9:24 pm 
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I guess I'm wasting my time trying to offer a different perspective. At the end of the day your right, who cares.
No one was giving him a hard time either.
As for my photos of course they are not all insitu. I actually road cruise snakes once in a while and photograph them off the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 4th, 2010, 9:42 pm 
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Brendan wrote:
I guess I'm wasting my time trying to offer a different perspective. At the end of the day your right, who cares.
No one was giving him a hard time either.
As for my photos of course they are not all insitu. I actually road cruise snakes once in a while and photograph them off the road.


your not wasting your time at all. I too am fairly new to herping and have much to learn. I don't handle most animals I find unless its something I need to photograph. I also know the lengths some photographers go to get a good photo. I asked what harm is done by handling a gravid animal. if you could provide some evidence that this is indeed harmful to the animals you then others including myself might handle things differently in the field. It just seems that some people like to force there opinion on people, not necessarily this thread, because they don't think herps should be collected or even touched.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 4:40 am 

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Mike Waters wrote:
What is the difference? do you think the animal or her unborn babies are going to be harmed in the process? the guy is out taking pictures. Its bad enough people give someone a hard time for collecting, even when in there legal rights. But for taking pictures, come on. I have seen your photos, they are not all in situ.




Like I said Mike it’s hard to know what are the key differences between sites with animals that seem to tolerate some regular disturbance, vs. sites with animals that seem affected and respond negatively in different ways, e.g. just becoming more ’spooky’/flighty(‘spook factor’ is a term describing this, coined by New York state’s likely most respected rattlesnake hunter Randy Stechert)or abandoning it completely. With so many variables it‘s tough to figure (no two sites being exactly the same) but two likely factors that first come to mind are habitat suitability/quality , availability of alternate suitable habitat/sites nearby, and size of the population utilizing any given site…..etc.

Yes a mother and her unborn babies absolutely can be harmed in the process of handling-with a hook, and even more easily with tongs. I don’t know why but it sounds like you don’t think this is possible. Again, this is something where I just like to err on the side of caution-how bad does one really “need” that photo? I guess the snake doesn’t really “need” to have a successful birthing either? .............But seriously, the birthing process is obviously dependent on timing, weather, etc.-in some places more so than others- and over the years I’ve come to adopte the mentality that I’d like to do as little as possible to potentially throw that schedule off .If the snake’s out, I get my hands off in-situ shot. if she’s not, well maybe next time. Or, I can try someplace else. I used to like to hook them out too at first but I learn and get more from the animals when I don’t, especially in the long run.

You also mentioned legal rights. I could go to West Virginia and kill/collect/skin/shoot/stomp/whatever as many timber rattlers as I like and still be within my rights, at least if I’m on private land………..My point is I‘d caution against citing the law as the basis for one‘s actions in the field-if not from a law abiding citizens perspective , but from a herper’s perspective ….I.e. I think you’re giving too much credit to some of these laws that are born out of political and/or economical motivation, and are often based on outdated/old data anyway. Seems like few if any are made solely with the best interest of the animals at their core.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 6:48 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 7:46 am 
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I really appreciate the fact that this has not degenerated into name-calling, or slander, or any other low forms of one-upsmanship. Yeah, feelings are running high, but that just shows genuine care for the welfare of these creatures. This is healthy debate, with an effort to stick to facts and experience.

When I was a newbie herper I did stuff that I now realize was bad for the animals I am so fascinated by. As the years go by I learn more and more about the animals, their habits, their needs, their surroundings, etc. and all that information helps me be a better steward of the environment and advocate for respecting what we have left.

I'm glad for these discussions, but I'm also happy to congratulate a fellow herper on some cool finds and photos, perhaps ask a leading question or make a gentle suggestion, and leave it at that.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now!


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 8:46 am 
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sorry Ugh but your point about the animals becoming spooked to humans has absolutely nothing to do with the well being of the animals. I agree that too much contact will cause a snake to move or be more weary of humans but that doesn't harm the snake. It just makes them harder to find. As for hooking, I have and bred rattlesnakes since I was 14 years old. I have hooked captive gravid females as well as hooking
wild gravid crotes of the road with noticable harm. WC animals still dumbed healthy babys and wc did what ever they were doing I didn't stick around to see, I have collected gravid crotes and they have had babys just fine. As for the laws, good point. And why do we need to get that photograph? Good question. For me I like to get at least one realy good photo of every species I find.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 9:48 am 
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Mark,
As you should know rattlesnakes hunt by sitting and waiting not moving around actively looking for prey items, and yes it is possible to see that the molossus is obviously gravid you can tell by the way she is held up on the stick, after you see a fare number of snakes its very easy to tell which ones are gravid. Just because she was moving around means nothing, its probably as simple as she was moving between her den entrance and a basking spot, and it not just about the the female molossus. We just want to see that your interest and understanding evolve so that you can collect some real valuable data and not just pictures. Im not trying to be insulting here but how can you say that "was a snake that was actively cruising the bottom of the wash, not pulled from a rockery, which suggest hunting behavior" if you don't take the time to actually sit back and just watch the animals. Im sorry but it is really impossible to learn anything about an animal if you just pick it up and photograph it. That rock pile you pulled her out of looks like a very suitable rockery but since you didn't watch her you can say for sure, but i can almost assure you from seeing hundreds of rattlesnakes that, that was probably her rockery site. If you believe that Brendan's concern is well founded then perhaps you should heed what he has to say, he and myself are just trying to offer you some advice that was not as readily available when both Brendan and I were younger herpers.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 10:13 am 
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Mike Waters wrote:
sorry Ugh but your point about the animals becoming spooked to humans has absolutely nothing to do with the well being of the animals. I agree that too much contact will cause a snake to move or be more weary of humans but that doesn't harm the snake. It just makes them harder to find. As for hooking, I have and bred rattlesnakes since I was 14 years old. I have hooked captive gravid females as well as hooking
wild gravid crotes of the road with noticable harm. WC animals still dumbed healthy babys and wc did what ever they were doing I didn't stick around to see, I have collected gravid crotes and they have had babys just fine. As for the laws, good point. And why do we need to get that photograph? Good question. For me I like to get at least one realy good photo of every species I find.


Mike,

You seem to be an authority on just about everything that comes up, I find it amazing. I wouldn't get too carried away with your captive observations and make assumptions on the behavior of wild animals. Crotes are intelligent and it's been proven that relocation can cause them to perish, in the new habitat. It's also been shown that they will abandon rookeries, if they feel threatened. So if you feel that a photo is worth ruining a rookery site that's been used for generations is acceptable, then you're what I thought you were.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 10:16 am 
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Mike Waters wrote:
Brendan wrote:
I guess I'm wasting my time trying to offer a different perspective. At the end of the day your right, who cares.
No one was giving him a hard time either.
As for my photos of course they are not all insitu. I actually road cruise snakes once in a while and photograph them off the road.


your not wasting your time at all. I too am fairly new to herping and have much to learn. I don't handle most animals I find unless its something I need to photograph. I also know the lengths some photographers go to get a good photo. I asked what harm is done by handling a gravid animal. if you could provide some evidence that this is indeed harmful to the animals you then others including myself might handle things differently in the field. It just seems that some people like to force there opinion on people, not necessarily this thread, because they don't think herps should be collected or even touched.


Mike,
At this point if you have not figured out that I am not trying to force opinions on anyone here you missed the boat. I have never been one to advocate non-collecting of herps and will always stand up for everyone's right to legally collect and maintain reptiles. My intent was to let him know that he could learn much more about the animals he's been after for 4-5 years! if he took a step back and got photos from a distance and came back on other occasions to take more photos and possible witness some interesting behavior. I don't think that was being critical of him in any way and actually I thought it was being helpful if anything.

Mark,
This is actually not even a debate. It was some simple advice offered by a few people who have several years of field experience in dealing with rattlesnakes. Not to take anything away from you as a herper and keeper but if you have hunted that area for 4-5 years and those are the first molossus you have seen I would say that this stuff might be "new to you" in some ways. You have several great insitu shots of the molossus and the speck and from the perspective of those shots it would be hard for me to believe that the snakes were left "as found" for the rest of the photos. I could be wrong but it would be impossible to get some of your later shots with the snake in it's original position.
You are correct that I am just guessing that any of those animals were gravid or even females for that matter. I could certainly be wrong on both counts but my original point still stands. If you come across an animal where you can get nice shots like your insitu shots then why not call it good and hope to come back the next day and see if you might find a second animal laying with the original or maybe the original snake eating a meal? This is all I was saying, not attacking you for hooking a snake. If you have several years of experience in keeping crotes then I would expect that in the field you would be able to pick out a gravid snake anyway and therefor keep disturbance to a minimum for the animals sake.
Here is a simple example of what I am talking about. Seven photos of the same speck on seven different occasions over multiple years. I have a least a dozen more shots of this animal which I thought was a male for a long time and finally realized it was a female when it was courted by a male this year. (Could be gay I guess) JK
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
If I pulled that snake out every time it didn't suit a "good photo" I am certain that she would no longer hang out in the same "exact" spots every single year.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 12:23 pm 
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justinm wrote:
Mike Waters wrote:
sorry Ugh but your point about the animals becoming spooked to humans has absolutely nothing to do with the well being of the animals. I agree that too much contact will cause a snake to move or be more weary of humans but that doesn't harm the snake. It just makes them harder to find. As for hooking, I have and bred rattlesnakes since I was 14 years old. I have hooked captive gravid females as well as hooking
wild gravid crotes of the road with noticable harm. WC animals still dumbed healthy babys and wc did what ever they were doing I didn't stick around to see, I have collected gravid crotes and they have had babys just fine. As for the laws, good point. And why do we need to get that photograph? Good question. For me I like to get at least one realy good photo of every species I find.


Mike,

You seem to be an authority on just about everything that comes up, I find it amazing. I wouldn't get too carried away with your captive observations and make assumptions on the behavior of wild animals. Crotes are intelligent and it's been proven that relocation can cause them to perish, in the new habitat. It's also been shown that they will abandon rookeries, if they feel threatened. So if you feel that a photo is worth ruining a rookery site that's been used for generations is acceptable, then you're what I thought you were.


Lol I never claimed to be am authority on this thread, in fact if you reread my post you will fin that I admitted to being new and relatively in experienced so let's not take this out of context. As for the bear thread you are subtlety reffering to, I wouldn't consider my self an authority but I know what I am talking about.
Also I am well awarebof the potential harm of relocating snakes and the possibilitya of them relocating if a den is disturbed. Are you suggesting that if a crote abandons a den then they will likely perish as of being relocating, if so what evidence do you have to support that. Again I welcomed info from everyone but I'm not gonna just take your word because you "think" it is wrong. I have learned a lot this year from more experienced herpers and I do a lot of things differently now but not without good reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 12:34 pm 
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Brendan, I wasn't reffering to you when I was talking about forcing opinions. Ugh who is admittedly anticollecting is who I was reffering to. Let me five you a scenario. I have never been to TX and I don't travel out of state to herp often if at all. Say I get the opportunity to go and while I'm there I find a klauberi. It could possibly be the only one I ever see. If it is in a clump of grass where I cannot get a good photo am I suppose to take some crappy shots and walk away. Not gonna happen you nor anyone else is going to miss that oppurtinity.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 1:35 pm 

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Mike Waters wrote:
Brendan, I wasn't reffering to you when I was talking about forcing opinions. Ugh who is admittedly anticollecting is who I was reffering to. Let me five you a scenario. I have never been to TX and I don't travel out of state to herp often if at all. Say I get the opportunity to go and while I'm there I find a klauberi. It could possibly be the only one I ever see. If it is in a clump of grass where I cannot get a good photo am I suppose to take some crappy shots and walk away. Not gonna happen you nor anyone else is going to miss that oppurtinity.



Wow i don't want this to dissolve into a pissing match or something but I can't believe you're really implying that scenario you menioned is out of the question for some herpers.I can think of several situations where I did just that.With all due respect Mike,if you:
A)can't appreciate such a find as is or
B)can't get a shot you'll be at least relatively satisfied with when you look at it in the future,

then maybe you need to reexamine your techniques of both herping and photography.....again it boils down to recognizing a natural situation and whether your need to duplicate the 'perfect image' in your mind's eye trumps you being satisfied with the natural image you're actually witnessing,and just being able to capture that.


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PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 1:48 pm 
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Location: Arizona
Mike Waters wrote:
Brendan, I wasn't reffering to you when I was talking about forcing opinions. Ugh who is admittedly anticollecting is who I was reffering to. Let me five you a scenario. I have never been to TX and I don't travel out of state to herp often if at all. Say I get the opportunity to go and while I'm there I find a klauberi. It could possibly be the only one I ever see. If it is in a clump of grass where I cannot get a good photo am I suppose to take some crappy shots and walk away. Not gonna happen you nor anyone else is going to miss that oppurtinity.


I'm sure ugh has his/her reasons for deciding not to collect. What ever they may be he/she is welcome to share that "opinion" and those reading can either dismiss it or relate to it and follow suite. I have several friends that are anti-collecting and they are my favorite people to head into the field with. I never have to worry about showing them animals and later having them vanish. One thing they don't do however, is tell me I need to share that same view.

My first and only trip to TX was in 2005. I saw several leps on rock cuts and left them right where I found them even though I have never been back again and they were the only lep leps I have seen to date. When I herp in MX I have come across basking female crotes which appear to be gravid and I just take whatever shot I can get and leave it alone. Here is a gravid armstrongi which was spotted by Correcamino and could have easily been pulled out for photos. Instead this was the only photo taken before she pulled back under her rock. Did I miss an opportunity? I don't think I did.
Image

Now in the case you described where a snakes is jetting through some thick grass and I have no idea what I am dealing with of course I am going to try and secure the snake for a photo. Each situation has different circumstances and I always try and weigh out the consequences of my actions before I act. In almost all cases a gravid female at a rookery is hands off for me. Of course I don't expect others to share that opinion and I have plenty of friends that feel I am probably too cautious about that type of stuff since there is "no real evidence" that my actions have any negative impact. I'm fine with that too. We all have to find our own way in this hobby.


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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 4:20 pm 
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Joined: June 21st, 2010, 8:30 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Arizona
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 Post subject: Re: Blacktails, Tiger, and Speck.....(cross post)
PostPosted: August 5th, 2010, 5:38 pm 
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Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Posts: 244
Location: Arizona
Mark, for someone who just found his first molossus you sure do assume alot about their behavior. It isnt ridiculus for us to care about what happens to wildlife and try to help educate other about it. Think about it this way..if you stressed that female out enough that she abandons her den where she intended to have her babies you have just increased her chance of being predated on and if that doesnt happen she will likely have her babies in a place that is more unfamiliar to her which also decreases their chances of survival. Just because you dont have the time to go out as much as you like doesn't justify your behavior. If you know where they are living you can go back week after week and see them without interfering in their lives. Most of the animals you saw insitu seemed to be posed better the way they were naturally than they did when you posed them. Again caring isnt a crime...

Here is another story for you, a friend of mine was out here recently who only gets to come to AZ about once every 2 years. Together we located two gravid female Crotalus willardi. My friend who hardly ever gets to come out here left without pictures of those animals because he realizes that the animals' well-being is far more important than ripping them out of their rocks and getting a couple pictures. So everyone who is justifying their behavior because they hardly get to see some species is based entirely on a selfish act. A couple of pictures of a common species isnt worth even possibly altering the courses of their lives.

Im sure these words are just being wasted in the wind, but what do we have if we cant work together to help educate eachother? I thought part of this hobby was to learn more about the natural history of these animals and primaraly educate eachother...

-Brandon-


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