It is currently December 15th, 2017, 9:05 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 244 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 8:03 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
IndigoBlue wrote:
This is obviously something you do not understand so of course you are going to disagree with anyone who does not think the same way you do...

Uh-huh, because it's simply not possible that someone could know what he's talking about and yet still disagree with you. And people on your side of the issue criticizing me or others for not agreeing with your way of thinking (e.g. I disagree because I obviously don't understand, because I'm too inexperienced, because I don't care about animals or habitat, etc.), unlike the reverse, makes y'all look really good. :roll:

IndigoBlue wrote:
... because we know what damage can be done...

Even if you can't find any evidence whatsoever to support your belief in that damage - beyond your personal dismay over the aesthetics of the situation, of course, which is readily apparent to anyone it's ever happened to - you just know it's there. How foolish of some of us not to accept that just because we on the other hand have knowledge suggesting the damage is largely imaginary, eh?

IndigoBlue wrote:
... Maybe it is selfish but I do know that if I want to go and see what I am after, and spend my money on gas, lodging, food, etc. that I worked for and perhaps am even taking time off work doing so, I would rather my trips be productive...

I've said time and again that I understand the selfish desire to guard one's spots. Could you really have missed that? It seems unlikely. At issue is whether that justifies attacking others here for not abiding by that selfish desire. You know, "[c]riticizing people for not agreeing with your way of thinking." ;) And then some.

Great post, Indi. It really added something new to the discussion. :lol:

Nah, John, I'm waiting for my wife to be ready to runs some errands we have to do this afternoon, so I might as well spend some time here.

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 8:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
Indigo, we don't doubt people kill snakes. However, we disagree on the extent of the damage. Is it still horrible and annoying? Yes. Has it happened in the past? Absolutely, particularly in the NE. The large poaching incidents in NY happened in an area before enforcement of protection laws, and soon after (and during) a time when there was a BOUNTY on rattlesnakes. More recently, a person was found with massasaugas, timbers, spotteds, woods, and bogs (Operation Shellshock). These people were federally prosecuted, and now the risks of smuggling these spectacular and rare creatures are much higher.

We all love rattlesnakes, but we differ in what is important to the long term survival of the species (not necessarily). Please don't take these things personally.

As for arguing, this is a forum, and frankly the only reason it is here is to facilitate such discussions. We are here to discuss field herping, and discussions frequently turn into arguments. The best we can do is to limit (avoid) all personal attacks and keep things civil.

Also, Gerry, if I have miscategorized your opinions, feel free to correct me, my skin is iron.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 9:03 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm
Posts: 127
Quote:
The large poaching incidents in NY happened in an area before enforcement of protection laws, and soon after (and during) a time when there was a BOUNTY on rattlesnakes.

WRONG!
Please do some research, or at the very least read some of the previously posted links. You don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
More recently, a person was found with massasaugas, timbers, spotteds, woods, and bogs (Operation Shellshock). These people were federally prosecuted, and now the risks of smuggling these spectacular and rare creatures are much higher.

How so? Please explain.

RW


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 9:36 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
I'm sorry if I am misreading things [I did read the posted links, and have read Timber Rattlesnakes in NY and Vermont (http://www.amazon.com/Timber-Rattlesnak ... 1584656565)], but as far as I can tell, there has been little recent exploitation of NY dens. In the past? Yes, of course. Timbers used to occur over nearly the entire state, but as a result of years of people collecting bounties and literally blowing up dens with dynamite, the populations are much more isolated and restricted.

Instead of just yelling "WRONG" can you please elaborate so that I can fully understand the situation? I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, I just have a different opinion that I feel is valid. I am open to being convinced otherwise, my opinions change all the time with new evidence.

As for your second point, before Operation Shellshock, no one knew (or cared to pay attention) that the DEC and FWS would heavily prosecute someone for smuggling snakes and turtles. Kingsnake was largely unregulated (at least in the NE), and as a result, people used it, along with the Hamburg herp expo, for nefarious purposes. As a result of this widely publicized bust, poachers are now aware that channels in and out of NY are being more heavily monitored than they were in the past, and therefore the risks are now higher.

I have met with the lead investigator of Operation Shellshock, went to his hour long presentation on the topic, and was involved with the school that took many of the surrendered animals, so I'm fairly well versed on the matter. Again, if I am mistaken, please let me know, as I said above, my position on the subject is not rigid.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 10:05 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm
Posts: 127
From this previously provided link http://www.cnah.org/news.asp?id=436 I highlighted in yellow showing that you are wrong when you say " The large poaching incidents in NY happened in an area before enforcement of protection laws, and soon after (and during) a time when there was a BOUNTY on rattlesnakes."

I highlighted in green a section for everyone that believes that poaching is inconsequential.


Rudy Reposed
Monday, April 14, 2008: Lawrence, Kansas - CNAH
NEWS RELEASE
The Center for North American Herpetology
Lawrence, Kansas
http://www.cnah.org
14 April 2008

RUDY KOMAREK, RATTLESNAKE POACHER

In early March 2008, Rudy Komarek (aka “Cobra King”), a notorious Timber Rattlesnake poacher and sometime showman, suffered a fatal heart attack at the age of 79. Apart from several well-known bounty hunters who took thousands of Timber Rattlesnakes at taxpayers’ expense in three northeastern New York counties and one western Vermont county (see Jon Furman’s Timber Rattlesnakes in Vermont and New York, University of New England Press, 2007), no single individual had a detrimental impact on northeastern populations of this species as great as that of Komarek. During the second half of the 20th century, Komarek’s extensive commercial collecting of reptiles in New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia flourished in a career that spanned four decades. In 1994, Brown, Jones, and Stechert (Bulletin Chicago Herpetological Society 29:74-79) detailed Komarek’s federal felony conviction for interstate trafficking, describing him as a “nefarious hominid” who single-handedly caused severe depletion or extirpation of many populations of Timber Rattlesnakes in the northeast. Using Stechert’s long-term monitoring data of many of the same rattlesnake dens that Komarek is known to have exploited, Brown et al. (1994) estimated that Komarek accounted for over 2,900 Timber Rattlesnakes taken from 27 dens in eight counties in New York. We now believe that this estimate is overly conservative. Since our report was published, Stechert has continued to conduct detailed status surveys in New York, the results of which -- in conjunction with the poacher’s own admissions in recent years -- now allow us to provide an improved estimate of Komarek’s take. Our revised estimate suggests that, over a lifetime of collecting, Komarek took or killed approximately 4,000 to 6,000 (best median estimate 5,000) Timber Rattlesnakes in New York, as well as hundreds in adjoining states. Over the past 25 years, the Timber Rattlesnake has been legally protected as a threatened species in New York. Before Komarek fled the state (settling for several years in Pennsylvania and finally retreating to semi-retirement in Florida), he is believed to have had about a fourteen-year period of taking the species following its listing and protection in New York. Although an era of outright depletion of Timber Rattlesnakes may have slowed considerably due to Komarek’s demise, we must take note of a variety of new and continuing threats to this snake’s habitats and populations caused by greatly expanded urban sprawl in the form of housing and commercial developments.

Randy Stechert
50 School Street
Narrowsburg, New York 12764

and

William S. Brown
Department of Biology
Skidmore College
Saratoga Springs, New York 12866
[email protected]

Quote:
As for your second point, before Operation Shellshock, no one knew (or cared to pay attention) that the DEC and FWS would heavily prosecute someone for smuggling snakes and turtles. Kingsnake was largely unregulated (at least in the NE), and as a result, people used it, along with the Hamburg herp expo, for nefarious purposes. As a result of this widely publicized bust, poachers are now aware that channels in and out of NY are being more heavily monitored than they were in the past, and therefore the risks are now higher.

I have met with the lead investigator of Operation Shellshock, went to his hour long presentation on the topic, and was involved with the school that took many of the surrendered animals, so I'm fairly well versed on the matter. Again, if I am mistaken, please let me know, as I said above, my position on the subject is not rigid.


I guess you are taking "risk" to mean something different than I do. I think the risk of being caught poaching is still the same, although people may now be more aware that big brother is watching.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 10:28 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
Yes, I read that. That happened a long time ago. Just as your view of "risk" is different than mine, your definition of "recent" is different than mine as well. I don't disagree that travesties have happened in the past, but I just don't feel that with the advent of modern herpetoculture and stringent laws in the NE, timbers are in danger of commercial level harvesting as a result of locality sharing.

Also, I wasn't referring to the risk of being caught, but the overall risk of the illegal activity. While the chances of being caught may be the same (I would argue they are greater), the penalties now have a steep judicial precedence, and therefore the entire activity becomes more risky, due to the greater penalty.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 10:53 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm
Posts: 127
I guess I don't see Rudy's 25 years of collecting/poaching that went on until 1997 as being ancient history. And I guess I don't see the recent poaching incident DaveR describes, as well as the one from Shellshock being insignificant. And I also don't think that the Timber Rattlesnake skeletons and shotgun shells I personally saw by a hunting camp in a N.E. state this spring were insignificant either.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 11:10 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
His poaching went on until 1997, but the majority of this work happened well before then. Also, remember that 1997 was 15 years ago. Shellshock may or may not have been significant. 33 massasaugas were recovered, but do we know how many timbers? Do we know those massasaugas came from the 2 NY populations?

Again, we are using our words differently again. I'm talking about biological significance, at the population/species level. Would I be mad if I saw dead timbers and shotgun shells together? You bet. I was furious when I found one of our telemetered timbers like this:

Image

Image

However, people are not scouring internet forums to gain obscure clues about timber rattlesnakes just to go shoot a few. That isn't realistic. It is much easier for those people to just ask around at a local tavern. It makes me sad that so many people feel the need to kill snakes for a perceived risk. That's why I work with NYS Parks and local organisations to host snake education programs where people get to touch live snakes and see what they are about. There is a lot of good to be done, but keeping this information secret isn't the answer (in my opinion, which I fully admit may be wrong).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 11:22 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm
Posts: 127
Quote:
However, people are not scouring internet forums to gain obscure clues about timber rattlesnakes just to go shoot a few.

Maybe not too shoot them, but they absolutely are doing it to poach them. As pointed out earlier in this thread former FHF member Emanuele Tesoro did just that. Not surprising that he is one of the guys that Shellshock caught.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 11:36 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Posts: 523
Location: Kentucky
Image

Something to be ever mindful of, throughout most of rural America encounters between rattlesnakes and men usually ends bad for the snake. Many people have a live and let live attitude towards wildlife in general, but when it comes to snake, especially venomous ones, the policy is usually no quarter from what I have seen.

In Kentucky they hang the photo's of butchered TR's up in the local general stores along side the smiling guy posing with his big buck or bass. I can't imagine how the snakes could benefit by revealing known locations where they live. Here, they eat the flesh and make hat bands and boots out of the hide. Do we really want to direct these people to where the snakes are?

Phil


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 11:41 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
IndigoBlue wrote:
How about a study then. Why not reveal every single location of every TR den in the NE and let's see what happens. And then we can discuss shall we.


Nice hyperbole.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 11:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
Phil Peak wrote:
Image

Something to be ever mindful of, throughout most of rural America encounters between rattlesnakes and men usually ends bad for the snake. Many people have a live and let live attitude towards wildlife in general, but when it comes to snake, especially venomous ones, the policy is usually no quarter from what I have seen.

In Kentucky they hang the photo's of butchered TR's up in the local general stores along side the smiling guy posing with his big buck or bass. I can't imagine how the snakes could benefit by revealing known locations where they live. Here, they eat the flesh and make hat bands and boots out of the hide. Do we really want to direct these people to where the snakes are?

Phil


Of course we don't, but are these guys really coming to this forum? If they really want to find the snakes, they will find them much more easily than by coming here. The people who are doing that don't know what a "herp" is.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 11:49 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm
Posts: 632
gbin wrote:
ugh wrote:
chad ks wrote:
...... The big divide between those who care about protecting information and those who do not, is usually something related to personal effort..

Most succinct line in this thread.
I'd say it's always related to personal effort- in the field, in places NOT shown to them.
Unfortunately for the snakes, people don’t grasp that until they HAVE put in the time in such places so some here haven’t found that out yet, and some never will

If you repeat something that you want to be true often enough, it must be true, huh? Where can one buy some of that magic pixie dust? :lol:

Why is it so hard for y'all to admit that you choose to protect herp hunting knowledge (first it was spots that were protected, then times were added, now folks sometimes even object to the most basic information about herping methods being shared) simply for your own sake, not for the sake of the animals or their habitats? You don't have to feel bad about that, you know; it's something we can all understand even if we don't all choose to behave the same way.

I've lately recognized this as entwined with something else that seems to be growing rapidly and unpleasantly in our community: competitiveness. Nowadays these message boards are rife with people saying in one way or another "I spend more time herp hunting, herp hunt or learned to herp hunt in a better way, find more or better herps, etc. than you do." (From what I can tell that seems to be the main point of NAFHA's existence, in fact.) Just like the selfishness behind the "need for secrecy," the competitiveness behind these folks' interest in herping is perfectly understandable as a common, maybe even ubiquitous human trait, and competitiveness too has always been around in our community to at least some extent. But it also seems obvious that overindulging in it is likewise harmful to our community. Anyway, it's occurred to me that if you're someone who sees himself as being at or near the top of the heap, you might well see trying to force everyone to accept a code of silence about herp hunting knowledge as a way to slow their attempts to gain any ground on you. Maybe this explains why some of you are putting so much effort into spreading your magic pixie dust around.

If that's the case, you know, you really needn't worry about that, either. Just as many of us here realize that no "need for secrecy" actually exists, many of us don't see it as a competitive venture, either. You're free to view yourselves just as importantly as you wish. The heap is all yours from top to bottom, and we want no part of it. As I've said repeatedly, the only time any of it really starts to bother me is when y'all start bashing other people for not behaving as you want them to about this stuff. Dividing our community, trying to make people feel bad about themselves or even chasing them off of these message boards for no good reason, that's the crap that I want to stop. Is that really so much to ask?

Gerry


Gerry you sound like a jealous outsider. There isn't actually a problem with chasing people off of these message boards (in the real world, that is): many of us hold to a standard that is both reasonable and understandable, if you don't hold to the same standards then that's your problem. Stop trying to dictate to others based on how you'd like them to act, because we have plenty of reason to maintain an expectation that publicity is bad for herp locations and also bad for herps. You haven't the experience or the knowledge to sympathize, so you are relying only on your jealous emotions to launch your "case". That is why your analysis is so prejudice and laden with speculations about people's motivations and personalities. That kinda talk just looks foolish imo, and it's bad form. No one is dividing a community, so please stop trying to activate support for your cause. People aren't stupid enough to be demagogued by you. :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 11:56 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
IndigoBlue wrote:
Oh but isn't that all imagination and just made up stuff Phil? I thought all people just love snakes, especially rattlesnakes. ;)


I posted a picture of a human killed TR. I know that this happens and most people dislike them. What I don't know is why some people are so against DISCUSSING things without resorting to personal attacks. I know and acknowledge that many of the people posting in this thread have more TR experiencethan I do, but I like to challenge opinions to see if they hold weight. Never be the smartest person in the room.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 12:08 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm
Posts: 632
John Vanek wrote:
Indigo, we don't doubt people kill snakes. However, we disagree on the extent of the damage. Is it still horrible and annoying? Yes. Has it happened in the past? Absolutely, particularly in the NE. The large poaching incidents in NY happened in an area before enforcement of protection laws, and soon after (and during) a time when there was a BOUNTY on rattlesnakes. More recently, a person was found with massasaugas, timbers, spotteds, woods, and bogs (Operation Shellshock). These people were federally prosecuted, and now the risks of smuggling these spectacular and rare creatures are much higher.

We all love rattlesnakes, but we differ in what is important to the long term survival of the species (not necessarily). Please don't take these things personally.

As for arguing, this is a forum, and frankly the only reason it is here is to facilitate such discussions. We are here to discuss field herping, and discussions frequently turn into arguments. The best we can do is to limit (avoid) all personal attacks and keep things civil.

Also, Gerry, if I have miscategorized your opinions, feel free to correct me, my skin is iron.


John, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt even though you use "we" to describe you and Gerry. I would avoid grouping yourself with him, because of the fact that many of us view ourselves as friends and as members of a community, and while you may see an argument…I see a project, an intellectual undertaking through discussion. There's no valuable reason to ascribe to Gerry's false dichotomy of us v. them, or to personalize the discussion as he so often does, thereby making it personal for everyone whether they like it or not.

I have a question for you. It seems that you do not agree with me when I say that poaching and commercial collection is a living problem and also a reason why we all ought to be cautious and discrete when referring to information surrounding timber rattlesnake (and other popular herps') habits, locations and periods of activity. I realize that it sounds paranoid, but I happen to know, for what it's worth, that a network of timber rattlesnake sales and poaching continues to this day. I have learned from other herpers who have friends who still do it, and I've seen van-loads of people here in central KS collecting all sorts of critters illegally. I have no doubt that it happens with timbers, and I think most informed people would agree, if not all informed people. So with this in mind, do you think it's more responsible to apply a precautionary principle to posting, just in case, as a way to reduce risk? Isn't it better for everyone if we maintain a standard on these message boards that asks loyal participants to at least suggest that an author of a post research more privately? Why should we assume that people like me are wrong, and place the burden of proof on us rather than on the people like you and Gerry who suspect on little evidence that we are indeed being paranoid? This shouldn't even be an argument or a discussion, we should all just assume that discretion is better for herpers and for herps, because it is.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 1:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
IndigoBlue wrote:
The damage is imaginary huh?...

Beyond a site being visibly trashed in such a manner that it doesn't really affect the herp populations residing there and an equally meaningless number of animals occasionally being collected or killed there, yes, imaginary. I don't like to see animals or habitat mistreated, either, but there's a difference between what someone dislikes and what genuinely amounts to a serious threat to wildlife/wild lands. In all these endless debates, no one has ever offered up a convincing argument - let alone actual evidence - to support the contention that serious harm comes to herp populations just because some people choose not to adhere to the internet code of silence some of you try to demand concerning herp sites/times/what-have-you. Mostly it's just a bunch of hysterics and condemnations aimed at anyone who dares disagree with you, let alone dares share information in disobedience of you. For that they're newbies or some other kind of no-nothings, or they're against the animals and habitats, or something equally derogatory and ridiculous. Go ahead and keep sprinkling your magic pixie dust, but understand that it only helps you to continue to believe something just because you want to believe it; it does nothing for the rest of us who continue to live in the real world.

No worries, John, I appreciate your efforts.

IndigoBlue wrote:
Give it a rest Gerry and stop trying to argue with everyone all of the time. It seems that is all you care to do. Going all the way back to the days on the kingsnake forums. Yes I remember those and when you were banned for such...

And now you've demonstrated yourself to be a liar as well as a hypocrite, Indi. ("Criticizing people for not agreeing with your way of thinking is really not looking good on your part." Indeed! :lol: ) Anyone who was actually there (and many others, besides) knows why I was really banned from kingsnake - and why a heck of a lot of other people subsequently got themselves banned or left on my behalf - and it had nothing to do with me "trying to argue with everyone all of the time." It had to do with Barringer's new paid helpers trying to stick it to the long-existing herp community there in order to attract a new, larger exotic pet community that they hoped would bring in more bucks, and my blowing the whistle on what they were doing. There are even still places online where one can read about what happened back then from various perspectives, if one so chooses.

But I understand that hypocrisy and lying often go hand-in-hand in some people (for all I know you're just chad ks under another alias; you're certainly acting exactly the same way in this regard), when you've decided that you don't like someone for whatever reason and therefore that someone apparently merits any dirty trick you can think to try to pull on him. It's shameful and disgusting and I don't know how you live with yourself behaving that way, but if that's the way you wish to be then that's the way you wish to be.

Again, for any rational people who might still be hanging in on this thread despite the recent dump of garbage here by the likes of chad ks and IndigoBlue: It's fine with me if you feel a need to jealously guard your herping knowledge. It's even fine with me if you want to fool yourself into believing that you're doing so for some higher purpose than merely a selfish (and understandable) desire to protect something that's special to you and/or a competitive (and also at least somewhat understandable) desire to outherp others. What's not fine with me is when you stage bogus attacks on others for not thinking or behaving the same way. I'm happy to agree to disagree with all kinds of folks (including the occasional hypocritical, lying miscreant) about all kinds of things, but if because of the disagreement you indulge in the kind of BS mentioned above, well, then I reckon you can expect me to call it out as BS. My condolences (but pretty much nothing else) to any who are pushed even farther into their hysterics by this.

Hey, Brian, are you by any chance still following along? Is all of the personal crap in some folks' posts above the kind of tactic you endorse, too? It's most definitely where that "you're either with us or you're against the animals!" nonsense naturally leads, you know...

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 1:36 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Posts: 523
Location: Kentucky
Image

The evidence is compelling and the arguments to show discretion are vallid. What we know is there is indeed an active market for these snakes right now. Aside from those that are sold to collectors it has been shown that there is also a demand for field collected TRs to supply the religious snake handling community in middle and southern Appalachia. This coupled with those disturbed individuals that take pleasure in slaughtering snakes when the opportunity presents itself should send cautionary waves through the herp community. With knowledge comes responsibility. I see no need in taking foolish chances with this precious commodity.

Phil


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 2:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
And yet again, Phil, what would be required for me to see it as compelling is not just establishment of the fact that herp collecting/killing (legally or illegally) exists nor even that it might be aided in whatever small way by the sharing of information on internet message boards, but that this also occurs at a sufficiently high level to actually harm herp populations. Likewise, it's not enough to document that a hillside of rocks has been turned, it would also have to be shown that this habitat disturbance isn't just an eyesore but actually harms herp populations. And that's not just because I'm a naturally skeptical fellow (though I am ;) ). I've spent plenty of time afield, among books and papers and in discussions with others about herps, and I've been trained and performed professionally as a population biologist who focused primarily on small, threatened populations. So on the one hand there's apparently no evidence available such as I mentioned is required, despite all of the passion that folks bring to their hysterical cries for the "need for secrecy," mind you (so there's obviously plenty of motivation out there to present or even produce such a study if it were possible to do so). And on the other hand I've ample knowledge and experience to suggest that actual harm to herp populations is extremely unlikely to occur due to someone posting herp hunting information in an internet forum.

Are any of the panicky folks getting it, yet? ACTUAL HARM TO HERP POPULATIONS.

Short of that, all you're disseminating is magic pixie dust. And at the rate you've been going through that, lately, if I were you I'd be worried about running out.

Ok, is it time again for still more meaningless reiteration of positions unsupported by evidence, or more character assassinations of people who hold opposing viewpoints (or who are simply the target of some grudge)? I can't keep track...

(Oh, wait, I just saw that while I was writing this, IndigoBlue decided to go for another shot at meaningless reiteration and character assassination. Way to cover the bases, Indi! :lol: )

Gerry

P.S. ACTUAL HARM TO HERP POPULATIONS.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 2:25 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Posts: 5722
Location: Los Angeles County
Image


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 2:38 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
I've got to admit, Brian, that's my favorite contribution to this entire thread. :lol:

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 2:41 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Posts: 523
Location: Kentucky
Image

Gerry,

You imply that there is simply no evidence that unregulated take from the wild population will effect TR populations yet this is a two headed coin. Why take unnecessary risks? We could proceed under the premise that there is insufficient evidence while entire populations are extirpated.

What we do know is this predatory creature tends to live in relatively low population densities and that it no longer enjoys the widespread distribution that it once did. Furthermore, a number of populations have been deemed to be in such serious decline that this has become a protected species in a number of states. We also know that this is a slow maturing species that usually does not reproduce every year, and in fact, some populations may only reproduce every three to five years. We also know that this species produces fairly small litters of young and that it is sensitive to habitat disturbance to a higher degree than many other species of snakes.

So would it be wise to not use some cautionary discretion when managing this species?

Phil


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 2:46 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm
Posts: 127
Phil Peak wrote:
The evidence is compelling and the arguments to show discretion are vallid.


Agreed. If one can't see the evidence that's been posted in this thread, they are either blind or just choose to ignore it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 3:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
Sorry, Phil, but no, I don't agree. For reasons that have already been laid out in this thread and/or elsewhere (this same debate keeps erupting so frequently that it's hard to keep track of what was said where :roll: ), I'm no fan of the precautionary principle. I seem to recall Jimi and some others here aren't, either. As good as it might sound to some, there appear to be stronger arguments against than for its use in wildlife conservation - and of course, there's no evidence supporting it, either. ;)

RW, how can anyone here see anything what with all the magic pixie dust y'all have been tossing into the air? :lol:

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 4:20 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 9th, 2010, 11:00 am
Posts: 230
Location: Rochester, NY
Phil...those are some beautiful TRs. Amazing, spectacular creatures.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 4:44 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Posts: 523
Location: Kentucky
Image

Gerry,

You are certainly entitled to disagree, and thats all right with me. This is simply a matter where myself and others believe caution should be exercised and you seem to believe its unwarranted. It appears that neither side will yield its position.

DaveR,

I feel truly fortunate each and every time I see one of these magnificent creatures in the wild. Glad you are enjoying the photo's. I thought I may as well bring this thread to life with a few images.

Phil


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 6:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
Phil Peak wrote:
Gerry,

You are certainly entitled to disagree, and thats all right with me. This is simply a matter where myself and others believe caution should be exercised and you seem to believe its unwarranted. It appears that neither side will yield its position.

And that seems like yet another fine summary of the matter (except that it should be clarified that I'm not alone in my view, just as you're not alone in yours), Phil.

:beer:

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 8:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
DaveR wrote:
Phil...those are some beautiful TRs. Amazing, spectacular creatures.


I think we can all agree, and leave it at that!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2012, 9:39 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 9th, 2010, 5:51 am
Posts: 782
Location: Arizona
Hole E crap...I've read this whole thread (and even threw in my .02 here and there) and I have to say that if we were making the case that evolution was a regressive process, this thread would be used as exhibit 1.

We go from speaking specifically about the topic at hand (i.e. the best months to find timbers)...to discussing why such info may or may not be a good candidate for public purview...to discussing overall theories on population dynamics, use of the precautionary principle and verifiable evidence of habitat destruction/species harm....to interpretations of words and wordplay....and finally we get to personal attacks, name calling and other esteemed endeavors. Classic herper forum stuff!

I just have one question after this wild ride....can anyone point me to some nice timber dens? Photos only, I promise. :lol:

-Kris


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 24th, 2012, 5:47 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
azatrox wrote:
I just have one question after this wild ride....can anyone point me to some nice timber dens? Photos only, I promise. :lol:

Gee, I don't know, Kris. I'd like to help you out, but the first C. atrox den I ever saw was shown to me and a handful of other people in the Sonoran Desert in southern AZ - many years ago I was part of a small group of people who went out with Cecil Schwalbe to collect data on the snakes there - and I heard that the den was hit not long afterward, hypothetically due to the loose lips or possibly even direct hand of one of our group. So, can you AZ folk really be trusted?... ;)

(Disclaimer: Although it was awful that said den was cleaned out and it was made even worse by the fact that it may have happened due to the actions of someone in our group, no one who knew of the incident would ever have argued that the species or even just(!) its AZ population was truly harmed thereby. Reasonable caution = good. Excessive caution = ok. Excessive caution that prompts one to attack others who choose to behave otherwise = not ok. Before anyone succumbs to the temptation to repeat their arguments yet again, take another look at what the original poster to this thread actually asked for - it wasn't directions to the nearest den, nor anything close to that.)

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 24th, 2012, 8:00 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm
Posts: 632
gbin wrote:
azatrox wrote:
I just have one question after this wild ride....can anyone point me to some nice timber dens? Photos only, I promise. :lol:

Gee, I don't know, Kris. I'd like to help you out, but the first C. atrox den I ever saw was shown to me and a handful of other people in the Sonoran Desert in southern AZ - many years ago I was part of a small group of people who went out with Cecil Schwalbe to collect data on the snakes there - and I heard that the den was hit not long afterward, hypothetically due to the loose lips or possibly even direct hand of one of our group. So, can you AZ folk really be trusted?... ;)

(Disclaimer: Although it was awful that said den was cleaned out and it was made even worse by the fact that it may have happened due to the actions of someone in our group, no one who knew of the incident would ever have argued that the species or even just(!) its AZ population was truly harmed thereby. Reasonable caution = good. Excessive caution = ok. Excessive caution that prompts one to attack others who choose to behave otherwise = not ok. Before anyone succumbs to the temptation to repeat their arguments yet again, take another look at what the original poster to this thread actually asked for - it wasn't directions to the nearest den, nor anything close to that.)

Gerry


Gerry, I for one didn't attack you, you brought Grover Norquist into your post…lol…who had absolutely nothing to do with any of the subject matter. You derailed and then went off about how people shouldn't be secretive, which is wrong. You asked for your treatment, and now you've agreed with me and others. Glad to see that your mind can be changed. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 24th, 2012, 10:40 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
For anyone who might possibly be confused by what stalker chad ks has posted, here's what I actually said previously. Some folks who don't like to read through multi-page threads might benefit from this being reposted, anyway:

gbin wrote:
Brian, I grew up in southeastern MN not far from C. horridus' range there, my wife is from upstate NY, and I've also lived (among various other places) in northcentral FL and now TX (though I'm also just outside of the species' range here, I think), more or less the four corners of the species' extant range. I've spent considerable time at these places and could even direct you to dens I know of due to my own personal efforts at the northern locations. Moreover, I talk with people, read and think to fill in gaps in my personal experience, just as you do. I'm certainly no expert on the species, no, but I understand well enough what's going on with them. And by the way, I've also lived in and many times since visited AZ, and can readily say that more than any place else it holds my heart (and by no means just because of the herps there).

It's not so much a question of whether an animal is safe, but rather what if any risk comes to it via sharing information (not to mention the most basic information imaginable) about it in an internet forum. I understand that such information sharing is a bad thing from the selfish perspective of not wanting "your" spots sullied by having other people know about and visit them, but I see essentially no reason to believe that it is a bad thing otherwise. There certainly are species/populations/sites under various threats, but internet information sharing is not by any realistic means among those threats. Everything I know from experience and other learning tells me that my perspective on this matter is far more grounded in reality than is your own.

I've been around a fairly long time now, too (I first lived and herped in AZ in the mid-1980s), long enough to have gained at least somewhat of an understanding of the history of the perspective you and various others now hold. Secrecy has always been prized by some, but in demonstrably tangible terms it has always been simply a way for people to try to guard what they consider to be "their" spots. As the number of herpers out there grew, paranoia about their sullying folks' "personal" spots apparently grew accordingly. It wasn't enough anymore to keep one's secrets to oneself - new people keep showing up at these spots, after all, so someone else must be telling them about them! (despite another painfully obvious explanation) - so it became more and more important to not only maintain personal secrecy but to also try to swear everyone else to doing likewise. Now we're to the point where some seem to be pushing a sort of unspoken Grover Norquist-style pledge that ultimately has to be adopted by everyone that all herp hunting information will be jealously guarded. Of course, not everyone is so self-oriented in their herpetological pursuits, so how to persuade them to sign on? Too, lots of us view the personal boardlines that exploded in popularity in CA (and to a lesser degree elsewhere) as nothing more than unsightly, illegal dumps (which they are, when placed without the landowner's/manager's permission), so how to persuade people that they too need to be guarded? Obviously, the purpose has to be redefined as protecting the animals rather than protecting "personal" spots. Every situation has to be framed as "you're either with us, or you're against the animals."

I'm not saying that this was necessarily a conscious thing (though I readily believe that it was in more than a few people). People like to believe that their behavior is guided by higher purposes than things like selfishness, and are naturally expert on rationalizing their own views and actions in order to put them in the most favorable light possible. And other people bought into the "keep it secret to save the animals!" campaign after it was well underway. I understand that there are now plenty of true believers out there, no matter how they started. But I can't help but also understand that it's harmful rather than helpful, and I won't buy into it. Frankly, although I find its selfish basis perfectly understandable, I find the divisiveness that it produces when people get militant about it - as has become increasingly common here at FHF - downright dismaying.

Go ahead and again laugh off what I've said, maybe make another joke about how verbose I am (I certainly deserve that, anyway! ). But I tend to think you're a plenty smart fellow, too, more than smart enough to realize there's considerable truth to what I've said if you'll only stop and actually think things through again. If you prefer to continue seeing things otherwise for whatever reasons then of course that's your prerogative, we can agree to disagree, but I'm asking you again, please stop with the divisive "you're either with us, or you're against the animals" crap. I'm not an enemy to herps, nor is John, nor are the many others that share my view. Stop attacking us as if we were.

In a subsequent post somewhere in the middle of this thread I further posited that the "need for secrecy" might now be looming larger in the minds of some here because of an apparent increase in competitiveness among them; perhaps some of those who tend to view themselves as being at the top of the heap want herp hunting knowledge jealously guarded in the hope of preventing others from gaining ground on them. My views have remained as stated and unchanged throughout this discussion, of course, because what would be required to change them is more than just passion (which I generally admire, though hate to see utterly wasted on foolish things such as selfishness and competitiveness or even just somewhat misspent on biologically insignificant numbers of animals), let alone than dishonest personal attacks and other attempts at cyber-bullying. For the umpteenth time, it's ok with me if some people want to jealously guard their herp hunting knowledge, even to a ridiculous degree (as has become very common here). It's not ok with me, though, if they attack others for not behaving likewise (as has also become very common here). People of genuinely good will should be looking for ways to unite our community, not divide it. My position is really not very difficult to understand if one looks past all of the various attempts by some others to misstate it.

And again and on a related note, folks would be wise to view with a great deal of suspicion whatever one person proclaims about another person in an internet forum; there are unfortunately plenty of people around these days who apparently prioritize "winning" (whatever they think that is) over honesty, after all, and some of them will also readily be quite vicious about it. If you haven't yet been the target of such a miscreant yourself, it seems reasonably likely to me that you eventually will if you're the kind of person who tends to stand up for him/herself or others.

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 25th, 2012, 11:04 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm
Posts: 632
gbin wrote:
Reasonable caution = good. Excessive caution = ok. Excessive caution that prompts one to attack others who choose to behave otherwise = not ok.
Gerry


gbin wrote:
It's not so much a question of whether an animal is safe, but rather what if any risk comes to it via sharing information (not to mention the most basic information imaginable) about it in an internet forum. I understand that such information sharing is a bad thing from the selfish perspective of not wanting "your" spots sullied by having other people know about and visit them, but I see essentially no reason to believe that it is a bad thing otherwise. Everything I know from experience and other learning tells me that my perspective on this matter is far more grounded in reality than is your own.


…seems rather contradictory to me, Gerry, to say that its selfish to want to protect your spots, but that (as an extension of this selfishness) it's "good" to show reasonable caution. Furthermore, how about we avoid a semantic discussion of the word "attack" and just agree that neither of these posts are attacks:

Mike VanValen wrote:
I'd be careful with how much info you reveal in this thread...


followed by this:

Brian Hubbs wrote:
I second Mike's advice, but nobody pays much attention to that kind of caution...Brendan and I didn't even put that kind of info in our Rattlesnake book...


Yikes, I hope the OP can recover from that attack! So anyway Gerry, you expressed a long winded analysis of your own myopic and naive view of how people ought to be forthright with information regardless of their own experiences suggesting the contrary, then you straw-manned the entire opposition by claiming that "attacks" were made so that you may soften your approach (=crawfish, back peddle what have you) after having been dealt far too much common sense counter argument. I would count both Mike's and Brian's degree of caution as good, and reasonable and certainly not an attack. Would I have mentioned the original cautionary comment? No probably not, but both objections were stated reasonably and passively.

Then, as if writing literature on some deep piece of conspiratorial subterfuge, you said this:

Quote:
As the number of herpers out there grew, paranoia about their sullying folks' "personal" spots apparently grew accordingly. It wasn't enough anymore to keep one's secrets to oneself - new people keep showing up at these spots, after all, so someone else must be telling them about them! (despite another painfully obvious explanation) - so it became more and more important to not only maintain personal secrecy but to also try to swear everyone else to doing likewise. Now we're to the point where some seem to be pushing a sort of unspoken Grover Norquist-style pledge that ultimately has to be adopted by everyone that all herp hunting information will be jealously guarded. Of course, not everyone is so self-oriented in their herpetological pursuits, so how to persuade them to sign on? Too, lots of us view the personal boardlines that exploded in popularity in CA (and to a lesser degree elsewhere) as nothing more than unsightly, illegal dumps (which they are, when placed without the landowner's/manager's permission), so how to persuade people that they too need to be guarded? Obviously, the purpose has to be redefined as protecting the animals rather than protecting "personal" spots. Every situation has to be framed as "you're either with us, or you're against the animals."


No reason to include that^ other than to show how silly your claims are, and how much thought you put into this silly list of claims. Also, Grover Norquist had nothing to do with anything, and also…for my part, I like the places I've spent time and money to find to be unsullied because of my aesthetic preference ad enjoyment of the purity of the place that I love to visit, it has less to do with the animals and more to do with the fact that in these cases I've earned the right to keep my lips sealed, as well as to suggest to others that they do the same if they wish to enjoy the fruits of the world as I do.


Stalker-out. :lol: :beer:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 25th, 2012, 12:28 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
As I said above:

gbin wrote:
... folks would be wise to view with a great deal of suspicion whatever one person proclaims about another person in an internet forum; there are unfortunately plenty of people around these days who apparently prioritize "winning" (whatever they think that is) over honesty, after all, and some of them will also readily be quite vicious about it. If you haven't yet been the target of such a miscreant yourself, it seems reasonably likely to me that you eventually will if you're the kind of person who tends to stand up for him/herself or others.

Anyone who hasn't already been following along in this thread and wants to know how it really went down should look at its first page for themselves rather than relying on snippets that were carefully selected to mislead the unwary.

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 25th, 2012, 10:16 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm
Posts: 287
Hey I just got into this thread! I really don't want to read the whole thing, could somebody just tell me who's winning?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 28th, 2012, 8:31 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 5:46 am
Posts: 457
Aaron wrote:
Hey I just got into this thread! I really don't want to read the whole thing, could somebody just tell me who's winning?



Maybe some egos.
Probably not the snakes. :oops: :x :(


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 28th, 2012, 5:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Posts: 523
Location: Kentucky
Image

I would hope to think that this discussion is less about egos and more about the conservation needs of TRs. As for myself, I thought it was comforting to see some of the folks that seem to know them well chime in and stress discretion.

I don't necessarily believe that those opposed to this view point are bad people. I just happen to think they are wrong.

Phil


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 28th, 2012, 6:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 25th, 2012, 3:08 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
I have a question for any horridus experts. Are timber rattlesnakes any more likely than other snakes to be stressed to the point of physiological damage than any other snake? Because I have taken a lot of flack for my handling of them in relation to round-ups. Now, I understand that the round-ups I take part in are not perfect, but that's not what I'm asking/discussing here. I just want to know: If you pick up a timber rattlesnake or tube it, is it any different from handling a garter snake? (Aside from the obvious hemotoxicity)

I had asked this question in another thread, but never got a solid answer.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 28th, 2012, 6:39 pm 

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 10:27 am
Posts: 68
Location: Kentucky
Jake, I think that is a good question. Although you probably don't handle Timbers the way I do because sometimes I don't use a tube and I just use my hands. But is that any different than holding an angry Nerodia by the head so it won't bite you? ( Of course most people would say don't pick it up in the first place) I don't think that snakes would really be that terrified of being held. I am no expert though. I think holding a snake may make it think you are going to kill it BuT if you don't kill it is there real harm done?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 28th, 2012, 7:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Posts: 523
Location: Kentucky
Image

I don't know if I qualify to be a TR expert, but I do know a bit about them. My observations have led me to believe that they don't fare well with disturbance as compared to many other snake species.

James,

I wouldn't recommend holding them with your hands. Going through life with a stump at the end of your arm may set you back a tad.

Phil


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 28th, 2012, 7:22 pm 
User avatar

Joined: March 18th, 2012, 6:34 pm
Posts: 915
Location: Houston, Texas
The Jake-Man wrote:
I have a question for any horridus experts. Are timber rattlesnakes any more likely than other snakes to be stressed to the point of physiological damage than any other snake? Because I have taken a lot of flack for my handling of them in relation to round-ups. Now, I understand that the round-ups I take part in are not perfect, but that's not what I'm asking/discussing here. I just want to know: If you pick up a timber rattlesnake or tube it, is it any different from handling a garter snake? (Aside from the obvious hemotoxicity)

I had asked this question in another thread, but never got a solid answer.



There's a general no-touch attitude with a lot of people. It is often felt that any (possible) stress is too much and to avoid it (you should see some of the arguments that start when a hognose faints...).

Without actual laboratory tested data, I don't think there's any conclusive evidence for either argument. Do what you're comfortable with, but realize any attempt to be gentle or treat a snake as you would a human is lost on an animal that behaves only instinctively (versus many mammals). It will either perceive danger or won't, and each individual will react to that perception in its own way, and, in turn, will be affected by stress differently. Without actual literature data to back up a certain stance, your best bet is to use good judgement and treat them in a way you feel is acceptable.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 29th, 2012, 4:05 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 25th, 2012, 3:08 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
I know about the general "no touch attitude" but that attitude doesn't exist in the rural areas I catch timbers. A lot of people look at me funny and ask why i dont just Kill them, instead of going to he trouble of relocating a female and her 8 or so neonates from our woodpile. That environment makes it hard for me to identify with this no touch crowd, when pretty much all my life I've been told I can just kill them. Obviously I'm not out there killing rattlesnakes, quite the opposite in fact. But when I'm criticized for handling them I just keep thinking "Why aren't you going after the people that kill these snakes illegally?" I know people who kill them illegally. And trust me, their ignorance and egos pale in comparison to any person on here. In my opinion, these people are a bigger threat to timbers than the poachers. These are the people that think they have to kill any snake they see, just because its a snake. And th PFBC usually doesn't give a hoot about some hillbilly who kills a single rattlesnake in his yard with a shovel to protect his kids or his dog.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 29th, 2012, 10:47 am 

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 10:27 am
Posts: 68
Location: Kentucky
I know the risks that come with holding them. I have really progressed though, Next herp season I have decided to hold less. This past summer I was holding every hot snake I saw. Mostly Copperheads and Timbers. I would say if I hold them less I have less of a chance of getting bitten. I think if you try to hold them all the time you will eventually forget to do something or make a mistake and get tagged.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 29th, 2012, 8:02 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4034
Location: San Francisco, California
Crotalus politicus

:mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 29th, 2012, 8:40 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4034
Location: San Francisco, California
James1617 wrote:
I know the risks that come with holding them. I have really progressed though, Next herp season I have decided to hold less. This past summer I was holding every hot snake I saw. Mostly Copperheads and Timbers. I would say if I hold them less I have less of a chance of getting bitten. I think if you try to hold them all the time you will eventually forget to do something or make a mistake and get tagged.



Id say your risks would decrease to almost nil as long as while your doing it you have your A-Team pajama bottoms on.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 29th, 2012, 8:48 pm 

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 10:27 am
Posts: 68
Location: Kentucky
Yeah I don't think that would help any.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 30th, 2012, 11:33 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm
Posts: 632
Soopaman wrote:
The Jake-Man wrote:
I have a question for any horridus experts. Are timber rattlesnakes any more likely than other snakes to be stressed to the point of physiological damage than any other snake? Because I have taken a lot of flack for my handling of them in relation to round-ups. Now, I understand that the round-ups I take part in are not perfect, but that's not what I'm asking/discussing here. I just want to know: If you pick up a timber rattlesnake or tube it, is it any different from handling a garter snake? (Aside from the obvious hemotoxicity)

I had asked this question in another thread, but never got a solid answer.



There's a general no-touch attitude with a lot of people. It is often felt that any (possible) stress is too much and to avoid it (you should see some of the arguments that start when a hognose faints...).

Without actual laboratory tested data, I don't think there's any conclusive evidence for either argument. Do what you're comfortable with, but realize any attempt to be gentle or treat a snake as you would a human is lost on an animal that behaves only instinctively (versus many mammals). It will either perceive danger or won't, and each individual will react to that perception in its own way, and, in turn, will be affected by stress differently. Without actual literature data to back up a certain stance, your best bet is to use good judgement and treat them in a way you feel is acceptable.


…it would be unwise to assume that disturbance will NOT affect horridus…when so many people who have seen many of them say otherwise. A responsible risk or cost/benefit assessment will result in taking a hands off approach as much as possible until you know otherwise. No laboratory tested data needed, and besides, how would one go about testing this in a laboratory? Do you need data and literature to tell you how to drive a car? Or how to treat a lady? :P


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 30th, 2012, 11:52 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm
Posts: 127
The Jake-Man wrote:
I have a question for any horridus experts. Are timber rattlesnakes any more likely than other snakes to be stressed to the point of physiological damage than any other snake? Because I have taken a lot of flack for my handling of them in relation to round-ups. Now, I understand that the round-ups I take part in are not perfect, but that's not what I'm asking/discussing here. I just want to know: If you pick up a timber rattlesnake or tube it, is it any different from handling a garter snake? (Aside from the obvious hemotoxicity)

I had asked this question in another thread, but never got a solid answer.


I don't know that I'm an expert, but one of the reasons people refrain from messing with gravid females is that disturbance can cause them to abandon their gestation sites. Another reason not to handle them is that there really is no need to. Getting in situ photos of them is pretty easy compared to other snake species. And in my opinion, a nice natural shot beats a posed shot every time.

RW


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 30th, 2012, 1:10 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
Scientists have of course studied the stress effects of handling and other direct human disturbances in a wide variety of animals. It's a very active, productive and many of us would say important field, and I've collaborated on a few such studies, myself. The results of these studies often surprise some people, both by finding that some animals appear to take into stride potential stressors that folks thought were worth worrying about and that some other animals exhibit unfortunately more pronounced effects than folks expected them to from seemingly mild potential stressors. It apparently depends a fair bit on the specific species and situation under consideration, and then there is some individual variation operating on top of that.

But if the data isn't yet there for timber rattlers then it isn't there. The best one can do in such a circumstance is try to get guidance from people with actual expertise with the species (such as Phil, in this case), and go with that bearing in mind that such people might be mistaken despite their expertise.

With a dangerously venomous species, that "don't handle them unless there's really a need to do so" advice seems pretty sensible, too. ;)

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 30th, 2012, 2:01 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1664
Re: hot handling - read this again.

Quote:
Another reason not to handle them is that there really is no need to.


Unless there REALLY IS A NEED, that right there is all you need to know. You're not glossing over the fact that these things can kill you, are you?

And if there really is a need, there are safer and less-safe ways to do it. The pros only use the safer ways. Heard the old saying about old pilots and bold pilots? That we don't see both kinds? The old & the bold thing absolutely 100% no-doubt-about-it holds true with venomous snakes & us folks who appreciate them.

Personal anecdote - over the course of the decades I had a medium-large (30-60) collection of venomous snakes, if I had to manually, literally touch just one of them, just once, in a year, it was not a great year. Because I had failed to manage to not allow a real need to develop. Follow me? Think about it. We don't want to see you on the news with your hand rotting off.

Cheers,
Jimi


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 30th, 2012, 2:59 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4034
Location: San Francisco, California
Legends and stories of ethos. The consequences of Wrong. To use one hand for unsound purposes - one may lose it.

But the caliber of posts above like Jimi, are not lost though they may not be heeded by James 1617. With him I think herps are Incidental. Its not the snakes, the Timbers or the Copperheads. If they wernt within his grabby reach it would just be something else. Counting seconds of auto asphixiation with his moms nylons and sharing it on some choking site with other same types. Its not the snakes. It has nothing to do with the snakes. He could care less about them.

F* his hand.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 244 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: