Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

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Bullfrog
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Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Bullfrog » November 15th, 2012, 4:45 am

Looks like they were caught dealing in illegal Timbers and Indigos....

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/ ... rafficking

Reptiluvr
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Reptiluvr » November 15th, 2012, 12:10 pm

Good, glad they got busted and charged.

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reptilist
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by reptilist » November 15th, 2012, 12:37 pm

As much as I'd like to stand up and salute the authorities....
The fact is that a captive breeding program would 'break the back' of poaching.
If the authorities really cared about wildlife, they would quit with the police action and let the free market protect the wild ones by default.

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Don Becker
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Don Becker » November 15th, 2012, 12:41 pm

reptilist wrote:The fact is that a captive breeding program would 'break the back' of poaching.
I think that varies species to species. With venomous animals, the number of people wanting to buy the animals will affect things. If there are more babies produced than people are willing to buy, what would the breeders do with them? If the market for the snakes is small, it is more economical to collect on demand.

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 15th, 2012, 2:28 pm

psyon wrote:... If the market for the snakes is small, it is more economical to collect on demand.
That's an issue, all right. Captive breeding can nonetheless help, though, by driving prices down. It helps further still if a solid argument can be made that the captive-bred animal is a superior product to the wild-caught one.

Gerry

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Mark Brown
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Mark Brown » November 15th, 2012, 3:07 pm

It might be good to bear in mind that these guys have been CHARGED, not convicted. And the list of people in the herping hobby/business who have been wrongly charged by LE for various offenses over the years is rather lengthy.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by condyle » November 15th, 2012, 7:08 pm

Ditto!

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Dan Krull
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Dan Krull » November 15th, 2012, 7:15 pm

I spoke with Robbie yesterday morning. You can learn what he said at this link: http://www.herpnation.com/uncategorized ... rp-nation/


Dan Krull

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Daryl Eby
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Daryl Eby » November 15th, 2012, 7:48 pm

Mark Brown wrote:It might be good to bear in mind that these guys have been CHARGED, not convicted. And the list of people in the herping hobby/business who have been wrongly charged by LE for various offenses over the years is rather lengthy.
Dagnabit. I was ready to join the attack on the Glades boys. Why'd you have to go and remind me of the presumption of innocence? It is indeed troubling how many herpers have been wrongly charged by LE.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by joeysgreen » November 16th, 2012, 9:21 am

If they are innocent, I hope they are cleared quickly.

If they are guilty, I hope they face the 5 yrs in prison, the fine, and Glade Herps goes out of business.

Ian

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by JakeScott » November 16th, 2012, 11:53 am

Well, I'd have no problem with the selling of certain species, but unless you get a LARGE population in captivity and for sale, the rare animals will still sell for a lot of doll hairs; thus, will induce the individual to either want to catch their own, or catch and sell. Somtimes it's a catch-22.

-Jake

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mywan
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by mywan » November 16th, 2012, 12:12 pm

I was waiting to hear some word from them on the charges. I may not be entirely subject to the same presumption of innocents the courts are, unless acting as a juror, but given their denial I'll not point a finger without more information.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by chad ks » November 16th, 2012, 12:49 pm

I'm not on the due process bandwagon, I think if people put themselves into the limelight for personal gain, for example by hosting a show, and if they either elect themselves as or grow to be representatives of a culture such as ours…they have a duty to go the extra mile to make sure that things like this will not happen. If they fail, they fall. That's the risk they took. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal mechanism for justice, it has no bearing on public perception. And also, by assuming neutrality, you do make a presumption of innocence in sacrifice of incredulity. I would rather remain neutral, or allow the onus to the contrary to rest on their shoulders because they volunteered to be celebrities.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 16th, 2012, 4:50 pm

reptilist wrote: The fact is that a captive breeding program would 'break the back' of poaching.
If the authorities really cared about wildlife, they would quit with the police action and let the free market protect the wild ones by default.

Ok that's a wonderful thought that sounds good on paper or forum threads.....but sadly holds no water- it's bullshit. Keepers get hard-ons for 'fresh bloodlines' combined with county-specific lines, both of which fuel a never-ending need for yes, more wild caught animals.

Another species involved with this bust were kingsnakes from New Jersey for the very reason of a need for county-specific animals.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by dragoncjo » November 16th, 2012, 5:02 pm

I don't believe the whole if there is captive animals available people will buy them instead of wild caughts. That is BS like ugh said, total and complete hot stinking BS. There are captive kings avail, why did they have to come to my neck of the woods to collect them. As long as you can go out into the woods and collect an animal and sell it people will do it, doesn't matter how many captives are available. What i'm reading is that there is a shortage of captive supply for timbers and kings, i just don't buy it. I don't buy that there is a shortage of any animal in the captive market. These guys should get real jobs, fing loser IMO, saw their show and they are losers.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 16th, 2012, 5:42 pm

Daryl Eby wrote: I was ready to join the attack on the Glades boys....... It is indeed troubling how many herpers have been wrongly charged by LE.
LOL you call this an 'attack'? Lol let me find them in the woods doing this shit....

But seriously, THAT's what you found 'troubling' about this whole thing huh? :oops: Interesting.

No to me it’s not troubling at all , probably because I’ve never given LE such a reason to charge me, right or wrong. Who are all these guys ‘wrongly accused’- wtf were they doing to get themselves into such a predicament? Actually I don’t care- it’s more of a rhetorical question. I have a general idea already….

But it’s absolutely baffling to me(actually no it pisses me of because I see it as some kind of hypocrisy) how FAST any of you guys rush to defend the rights of some scumbags trying to exploit some animals for profit here- at the expense of the very herps everyone here is absolutely frickin’ OBSESSESED about to the extent that we dwell on forums just to talk about them and look at pics of them, even borderline neglect our families to go out and find ‘em! I don’t get it.


I love seeing assholes like these guys get busted; love it. Makes me laugh my ass off every time. Make your bed, you lay in it. Get a real job, you know? Unfortunately they probably won’t get a new cuddly roommate in a cell, but rather a piddly slap on the wrist fine and be right back out countin’ their cash behind one of their tables.


And what do these animals have covering their back-some flimsy-ass laws, if they’re lucky enough to be in certain states? An overworked, underpaid conservation officer?
Apparently not enough forum goers, that's for sure.

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reptilist
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by reptilist » November 16th, 2012, 6:00 pm

Are corn snakes protected?

If they were, then there would be poaching.
But they are easy to come by in the pet trade and because of that, no shortage in the wild.

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mywan
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by mywan » November 16th, 2012, 7:19 pm

reptilist wrote:Are corn snakes protected?

If they were, then there would be poaching.
But they are easy to come by in the pet trade and because of that, no shortage in the wild.
I'm not allowed to have a corn snake in my state from any source, period.

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KevinS
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by KevinS » November 16th, 2012, 8:25 pm

IndigoBlue wrote: You can blame that on the hobby with the increase and desire of morphs and hybrids. Some people want to know exactly what they are getting and when locality specific animals are offered, I can certainly understand why some would choose to get the real thing instead of some unknown cross/morph/hybrid (as we all know, many are not represented accurately).

So hybrids are the cause of all evils in our hobby apparently, even the evils committed by "purists" for the sake of keeping "pure" animals? Radical as it sounds, I blame the collection of wild locality specimens on the people who only want to keep animals with locality data attached-(the ones creating the demand for the wild caught specimens). I like my okeetee corns, because they look like okeetee corns-that's what made okeetees popular in the first place, their appearance. Were their parents all descended from Okeetee Hunt Club individuals? I don't know or care. I honestly don't understand why someone would so desperately want a plain looking corn just because it was collected from the hunt club property in Jasper County, but because some people have that mindset that locality data is super critical for captive specimens, people will still go collect them there despite the fact that you can get a perfectly good captive bred specimen for under $20.

I once tried to purchase some captive bred Mexican milk snakes, but was told they would cost double what I was expecting because the parents were collected from the same side of some highway in Texas. Big whoop-I just wanted some nice looking Mexican milks. For all I know, the mother just came from the other side of the highway before she was collected anyway-what difference would it make? I can understand documenting lineages for some species in captivity to maintain strong bloodlines, but why is a wild caught snake that you can trace to the very rock it was found under worth more than an identical looking captive bred individual? I just don't get it, but that seems to be what fuels the demand for continued collection of species that are already well represented in captivity.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 16th, 2012, 8:43 pm

Its a fad. Im sure there are good solid reasons for scientists and very serious contributing people like there is a guy on this forum who is a kingsnake man who is very true in aim but for the average consumer hobbiest it is mostly just for the idea of it. Its not like they are trying to replicate specifics of biome topography etc in their keeping - stacked in plastic boxes like baseball card collection.

I myself felt it with the little cali king i got - hoping she was a locality type just so i could fulfill more of my curiousity about her, and also i bought into a kind of legitamacy ideal, in having her be a So and So.

But she is just a CB mutt and i look at her and know at least she wont end up changing hands for the rest of her life. And she is what she is - A beautiful spunky Cal King. Im honored to have the Lady.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 16th, 2012, 9:28 pm

IndigoBlue wrote:Kelly I think some want to know if they get a pair of snakes and breed them, they want to know what they are producing. You guys make it sound like we should all just keep an animal solely on how it looks no matter what it is. Whether it be some California King crossed with any other getula, as long as it looks nice, who cares right. Wrong. That's not what some want. Great for you if that makes you happy but no need to put down others because they don't adhere to what you think we should all desire to keep if we do keep anything.

Ew I dont think that at all. About the How it looks and thats why thing. I was just saying there is an Element of Fadism in the hobby. And this is one of the current ones. Its not nauseating like the Morph Obsession - but it is a current fad.

I think its important to observe possible differences in locality types as far as adaptive behaviors to habitat and predator/prey relationships.

But as a selling point that is what is a very Main Draw.

Producing Producing Producing.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 16th, 2012, 11:53 pm

IndigoBlue wrote: Don't go extreme

He didnt. Nobody got hyperbolic or made absolutist remarks but you.

And who cares where you or anybody else was born? In that case yes for sure knowing the locality of any of my animals is infinitely more interesting. I know what locale my galloti are, and some of my snakes. Im glad I do - it makes keeping them much richer in informational sense. But thats not the essence of the commercial cause and effect some of the people here were rationally discussing, which simply included some of their personal experiences, and their thoughts about them.


oh - and I learn too much from Ughs posts, to ever mind when he sounds mad.

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mywan
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by mywan » November 17th, 2012, 2:29 am

I tend to appreciate quirky personality traits more than color morphs. Though a nice color display or unique body structure has its charms.

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 17th, 2012, 9:03 am

Many people who are into antiques prize their possessions for their provenance as much as for their appearance, functionality or whatever, too. Different strokes for different folks. Locality collection seems like a non-issue to me, anyway. (Surprise, surprise.) So there are folks out there collecting live animals from specific sites, and some of them are even doing so illegally. I'm glad when they get caught doing the latter, and I hope they are meaningfully punished for it when they do get caught, but in any event I have to believe the numbers of animals involved are trivial from a biological standpoint. Yup, the same argument we all have so many times...

Hopefully the folks who disdain our country's astonishingly important presumption of innocence will revise their thinking before they or one of theirs is mistakenly charged with some kind of crime, as most certainly does happen. And especially before they are ever asked to serve on a jury somewhere.

Gerry

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by azatrox » November 17th, 2012, 4:07 pm

I love seeing assholes like these guys get busted; love it. Makes me laugh my ass off every time. Make your bed, you lay in it. Get a real job, you know? Unfortunately they probably won’t get a new cuddly roommate in a cell, but rather a piddly slap on the wrist fine and be right back out countin’ their cash behind one of their tables.

Ugh indeed....

You don't need to be doing anything wrong to be wrongly accused and arrested...That's the whole point of being WRONGLY accused and arrested.

I'm not so much "rushing to their defense" as I am stating that the presumption of innocence (at least in the legal sense) is a VERY important part of our judicial system here in the US...There's absolutely nothing wrong with asserting that anyone suspected of engaging in illegal activity deserves the presuption of innocence until guilt is proven.

Ugh, apparently you will never be put in a situation where you will be falsely accused of anything, so I suppose it's easy for you to sit back and "laugh your butt off" when it happens to others....Most of us aren't quite that lucky, so humor us with at least feigned understanding if you will...

Look...if these guys did the crime, they should be punished pursuant to federal laws and guidelines...If they didn't do the crime, then they should walk with a hearty apology from the authorities that falsely arrested them.

Historically, herpers haven't exactly been the most law abiding bunch...but on the other side of that coin, there have been far too many herpers that have been accused of illegal activities that were found to be untrue and baseless.

Let's let these guys have their day in court and THEN cast judgement if we are so inclined....That's how the system is SUPPOSED to work.

-Kris

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 17th, 2012, 6:15 pm

What i got out of some of the statements was an emphasis on the importance of todays herp "Rock Stars" making sure their behavior is above reproach and doesnt bleed over into the dark side of exploitive behavior which is deeply rooted historically.

This is childlike for me to say but it seems that Animals and Big $ dont mix , without animals getting the crap end of the stick.

It also seems that something bigger than money or agencies or human will is moving like a vortex of spiritual laws toward an inevitable end. Like a bad tree and its fruits. Or a kind of math of positive and negative forces i dont understand.

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 17th, 2012, 6:46 pm

azatrox wrote:... the presumption of innocence (at least in the legal sense) is a VERY important part of our judicial system here in the US...
I'd say its importance clearly extends well beyond our judicial system, too. Aside from the fact that juries are chosen from people in the community (and of course jurors are the ones required by our judicial system to presume innocence until guilt is proven), people shouldn't have to worry about their family, friends, neighbors... judging them badly because they had the misfortune to be wrongly charged for a crime. I mean, I know it does indeed happen, but I can't imagine how any reasoning person of good will can think that it's proper that it happens.

Gerry

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azatrox
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by azatrox » November 17th, 2012, 8:20 pm

Gerry,

Yes, I indicated "legal sense" simply because in this world of instantaneous status updates, Twitter, etc. the court of public opinion judge's ones guilt or innocence long before the court of law gets to it.

Instead of using scientific and verifiable forms of evidence, often the court of public opinion relies on innuendo, half truth, perception and whatever social consciousness happens to be prevalent at a given moment....

To some these guys aren't on trial for the alleged poaching of protected animals...they're on trial because they're "commercial collectors", a term that has come to mean everything that is vile with the herp community today. However, 30-40 years ago commercial collecting was commonplace, and even esteemed places of research such as museums, academic institutions and the like paid collectors to go out and collect what they could find. So really, the court of public opinion has judged these guys guilty because of how they're seen, not necessarily any singular act they have committed.

Now, I'm not excusing commercial collecting in 2012, nor am I condoning it...I'm simply saying that for many people (like some that have posted on this thread), these guys should be jailed for the remainder of their natural lives not JUST because they committed a crime, but because in their minds these guys represent something that they abhor.

The court of public opinion exerts powerful influence over this FaceBook nation...and an unfortunate side effect of our drive through culture is the ease with which we can form our opinions and be truly committed to them with nothing more than social perception and (often distorted) media coverage to back up our newly formed, set in stone opinions.

But what can be said? Most people don't have the inclination to seek the truth...Most are simply content to go with the masses and congeal into some sort of gelatinous group think.

-Kris

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Jimi » November 17th, 2012, 8:30 pm

the ease with which we can form our opinions and be truly committed to them with nothing more than social perception and (often distorted) media coverage to back up our newly formed, set in stone opinions
Quite.
Well.
Put.

Cheers,
Jimi

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 17th, 2012, 8:58 pm

Seconded - on every bit! Good enough to quote sometime, even.

Gerry

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Cole Grover
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Cole Grover » November 17th, 2012, 9:12 pm

Kris,

Your posts are dead-on. Thanks for taking the time to make those points - I, too, tend to get wrapped up in the witch hunt and need to be reined in from time to time. This has denegrated into something different, but just about as equally ugly as the original topic. If the Glades guys are guilty, I hope they're amply punished. If not, I hope they get quickly cleared of the charges. Wildlife crimes are a heart-breaker to most on this forum.
KevinS wrote:Radical as it sounds, I blame the collection of wild locality specimens on the people who only want to keep animals with locality data attached-(the ones creating the demand for the wild caught specimens).
Eew. I'm sorry to hear that, Kevin. I keep locality snakes but very seldom, if ever, collect anything from the wild so this hits me where it hurts. I won't pretend to speak for others here, but I'll offer some personal thoughts on the subject that I hope you'll take into consideration.
KevinS wrote:Were their parents all descended from Okeetee Hunt Club individuals? I don't know or care. I honestly don't understand why someone would so desperately want a plain looking corn just because it was collected from the hunt club property in Jasper County, but because some people have that mindset that locality data is super critical for captive specimens, people will still go collect them there despite the fact that you can get a perfectly good captive bred specimen for under $20.
The number of keepers AT ALL interested in locality data is miniscule in the scheme of things. Wrap your head around the numbers of people keeping corn snakes, ball pythons, leopard geckos, or bearded dragons in comparison to Lampropeltis alterna or any other "locality" snake. The difference, even at an anecdotal level, is staggering.

Now to get down to business: For me, at least, it (the "need" for locality data) comes down to a desire to have a connection to the natural history of that particular animals. A corn snake from the Miami-Dade region of south Florida has a very different life history than one descending from the pine woods of the Carolinas, or the sandy expanses of New Jersey. Don't you agree? As a born scientist and natural history buff, I appreciate knowing the provenance of the various animals I work with. Especially with the common-place occurrence of cross-population or cross-species hybridization in the herp-keeping hobby today, I will gladly pay more for animals which have been bred locality-specific so as to preserve their natural interspecific variability. When I buy a Lampropeltis triangulum annulata or a Pantherophis guttatus, I'd like to know something about the natural history of the population that animal is descended from. I'd also like some reasonable assurance that it's truly what it's supposed to be and not something else. For us natural history buffs, an important tenet of biology is that "populations evolve..." There's nothing wrong with animals that have no locality data for the average keeper. Nothing at all. I have some. However, I prefer, and will go out of my way to search out, animals that have some natural history data associated with them. Often, I'm more fascinated by the plant associations, climate, and geology of the "locality" as I am the color or pattern of the animal I intend to keep. I guess it's the Kaufeld coming out in me.

I'd also like to address the statement made that it it locality keepers who drive the market for wild-collected herps. I'm not sure how to begin explaining how incredibly misinformed that supposition is. There are hundreds of thousands of reptiles and amphibians brought into this country every year. Virtually NONE have ANY collection data other than, potentially, country of origin. Even that is often suspect. Contrast that with the comparatively few herps collected in the US with locality data, and the difference is striking.

As for the ethics of herp collection, that's been hashed over on this forum (and others) time and time again. "Harvesting" herps is no different than the harvest of trout, deer, mountain goats, black bears, mountain lions, or wolves. Hunting for meat is no longer a necessity; it's a "sport" in the US - a recreation. Is there anything wrong with harvesting deer or elk? Anyway, some things to ponder, if you haven't already.

I bet you'd be truly surprised to learn that some of the staunchest "locality" herp keepers are prominent members of your local, state, and federal wildlife regulatory bodies and/or well-known conservation advocates. Seriously - I bet you know some of them. Also, you might be interested to know that many "locality" herp keepers donate funds to (i.e.; support) conservation and research organizations, such as the IRCF and Orianne Society - an organization which I suspect you're familiar with...

Alright, I'm out.
-Cole

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 18th, 2012, 1:24 am

Cole Grover wrote:
For me, at least, it (the "need" for locality data) comes down to a desire to have a connection to the natural history of that particular animals. A corn snake from the Miami-Dade region of south Florida has a very different life history than one descending from the pine woods of the Carolinas, or the sandy expanses of New Jersey. Don't you agree? As a born scientist and natural history buff, I appreciate knowing the provenance of the various animals I work with.

\
Often, I'm more fascinated by the plant associations, climate, and geology of the "locality" as I am the color or pattern of the animal I intend to keep. I guess it's the Kaufeld coming out in me.


-Cole
Because these are relevent - arent the realities you described ignored by keepers who would seek locality types yet keep them in uniform plastic drawer LAM style containment without any attempt to explore or address these important factors in the captive state? And then produce more for purely lucrative motive? Isnt that just seeking and producing them In Name Only - and letting so much of great value go to waste?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by FunkyRes » November 18th, 2012, 2:42 am

Cryptic species complex are one reason why locality may be of some importance.

If what we deem as one species turns out to be several species, non locality captive lines may be hybrids.

Personally I don't really think it matters, if it is captive line then it is no longer part of the wild population but I can see why some might have that concern. Pseudacris hypochondriaca and Pseudacris regilla have an entire species between them now, but historically were the same thing. Locality lines could be identified, non locality lines could be anything.

On the other hand, if it is for the pet trade, does it really matter?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 18th, 2012, 5:59 am

Gerry, Kris, Cole- you guys should be defense attorneys. Offer your services to the misaligned Glades herps guys.
Again, it’s probably all a big misunderstanding. And purely insignificant that these guys’ table at herp shows are covered in ~80% wild caught animals. That was of course all collected and obtained by Glades herps comepletely legally. True story.

This isn’t a lab project, it’s criminal law. Which involves piecing together WHATEVER EVIDENCE YOU HAVE- and either ‘pulling the trigger’ on someone, or letting them walk. Anything beyond that just ties up the legal system excessively. And that’s the way it’s designed to work. We know their background and what they do for a buck.

You can claim knee-jerk reaction on folks like me saying they’re guilty; of course they are. And I can claim conflict of interest or alterior motives coming from a collector/keeper like Cole.



These guys will likely be back at it in no time and it’s in part because of people that don’t get this because they deny common sense. I do however think they MAY-just maybe-have enough sense not to try for NJ kings or PA rattlers again, but that’s assuming a lot.
We don’t have a video recording of them. Just like we didn’t of Orenthal James Simpson.
I’m pretty sure most convicted felons are actually innocent too. Again, misunderstanding.
Only in America.



Cole Grover wrote: Now to get down to business: For me, at least, it (the "need" for locality data) comes down to a desire to have a connection to the natural history of that particular animals. A corn snake from the Miami-Dade region of south Florida has a very different life history than one descending from the pine woods of the Carolinas, or the sandy expanses of New Jersey. Don't you agree? As a born scientist and natural history buff, I appreciate knowing the provenance of the various animals I work with. Especially with the common-place occurrence of cross-population or cross-species hybridization in the herp-keeping hobby today, I will gladly pay more for animals which have been bred locality-specific so as to preserve their natural interspecific variability. When I buy a Lampropeltis triangulum annulata or a Pantherophis guttatus, I'd like to know something about the natural history of the population that animal is descended from. I'd also like some reasonable assurance that it's truly what it's supposed to be and not something else. For us natural history buffs, an important tenet of biology is that "populations evolve..." There's nothing wrong with animals that have no locality data for the average keeper. Nothing at all. I have some. However, I prefer, and will go out of my way to search out, animals that have some natural history data associated with them. Often, I'm more fascinated by the plant associations, climate, and geology of the "locality" as I am the color or pattern of the animal I intend to keep. I guess it's the Kaufeld coming out in me.

I'd also like to address the statement made that it it locality keepers who drive the market for wild-collected herps. I'm not sure how to begin explaining how incredibly misinformed that supposition is. There are hundreds of thousands of reptiles and amphibians brought into this country every year. Virtually NONE have ANY collection data other than, potentially, country of origin. Even that is often suspect. Contrast that with the comparatively few herps collected in the US with locality data, and the difference is striking.


I bet you'd be truly surprised to learn that some of the staunchest "locality" herp keepers are prominent members of your local, state, and federal wildlife regulatory bodies and/or well-known conservation advocates. Seriously - I bet you know some of them. Also, you might be interested to know that many "locality" herp keepers donate funds to (i.e.; support) conservation and research organizations, such as the IRCF and Orianne Society - an organization which I suspect you're familiar with...

Alright, I'm out.
-Cole

Cole ok so from what you're saying most locale keepers are borderline angelic; in fact most of you are probably in church right now as I write this lol. So ironic coming from someone that keeps/collects wild stock, huh..

The locale hard-on folks I know, make one or more trips a year to wherever for 'new bloodlines'. Of course they try to target the states with no laws or the least restrictive laws, and most come back with as much as they can bag of all their target species.


And Cole you DO live in the middle of nowhere so maybe you can’t really comment on this east coast stuff (re: where these herps were bagged and the encroachment of step-apes on their shrinking habitat). So before you completely write off collection effects on herp populations, read up on the history of the Timber rattler. Or learn something about the pine barrens- it sits right between Philly and atlantic city- the kind of places that cause people to move to Montana.

And recall the pine barrens ARE SMALLER THAN MOST OF YOUR COUNTIES out there in Montana, and of course far more populous and fragmented. Oh yeah and they get hit by herpers every day 6 months out of the year-some still collect, some don't. But that's all 'biologically insignificant'- right? This is the disjunct, extant population where their county-specific kingsnakes came from. Justify all you want little buddy.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Phil Peak » November 18th, 2012, 8:09 am

I have nothing to add to the original discussion other than agreeing with some of the other posters that it would be prudent to allow the judicial system to run its course before passing judgement.

I would like to weigh in on the locality collection issue however. I find it disconcerting that highly respected members of this community are taking cheap shots (again) by an annonymous entity that goes by the name Ugh. By now I believe we all know what Ughs agenda is and that he/she believes it is wrong to field collect snakes, and that there is never justification for these activities no matter how legal they may be or for what purpose. Okay, I get it and who cares? There's no need for anyone here to be put on the defensive simply because their legal activities and interests conflict with Ughs sensitivities.

Phil

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 18th, 2012, 9:01 am

If adult people are put on defensive by the views of a member thats their problem.

I dont see "sensitivities" I see a legitimate viewpoint strongly presented.

Also, what is the criteria for an event or story being moved from The Forum to the Boardline?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Phil Peak » November 18th, 2012, 9:41 am

Kelly Mc wrote:If adult people are put on defensive by the views of a member thats their problem.

I dont see "sensitivities" I see a legitimate viewpoint strongly presented.

Also, what is the criteria for an event or story being moved from The Forum to the Boardline?

I've seen this movie before Kelly Mc. No answer is sufficient, no scenario acceptable. Ugh is against any and all collecting and even when someone posts a well thought out reply to reason with him/ her they are still crucified and put on trial.

So Kelly Mc, since you know so much about all this, What to you legitimizes Ughs viewpoint that all collecting is wrong? Can you present one shred of scientific data to back this up? Of course you can't, but if it makes you and Ugh feel better than I guess you're entitled to your opinions. You could refer to that as your "sensitivities".

Oh, and by the way..if you want to speak in terms of adults having intelligent conversation, we could start by using actual names if we wish to be taken serious IMO.


Phil

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 18th, 2012, 10:09 am

Why do you need to know his full name?

His knowledge speaks for itself.

I have heard that people can be harmed in very serious ways over the internet by vengeful people using information and doing destructive things. I have only just touched a computer a little over 3 years ago but I do get the impression it can be a diabolical portal for idle hands and petty minds.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 18th, 2012, 10:30 am

Also please do not put Ugh and me together in a statement as if we are peas in a pod - for although I find it complimentary, he may not at all.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Phil Peak » November 18th, 2012, 11:28 am

Kelly Mc wrote:Why do you need to know his full name?

His knowledge speaks for itself.

I have heard that people can be harmed in very serious ways over the internet by vengeful people using information and doing destructive things. I have only just touched a computer a little over 3 years ago but I do get the impression it can be a diabolical portal for idle hands and petty minds.
Knowledge? Intolerance may be a more apt description.

I don't have a need to know his/ her name. But if someone wants me to take them serious they need to come at me with something a little more than Ugh.

btw..you still haven't answered my question.

Phil

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 18th, 2012, 11:39 am

Kelly I appreciate the rare support here, thanks.
I have no reason to not put my name on here but at this point I like that it pisses off so many that now I just keep the alias lol.

Phil is putting words in my mouth. I guess like many here he has to manipulate or break things down to their most simple possible essence so they can dismiss what I've said here as 'oh just an anti-collecting tree hugger' or whatever. It's easier than adressing what I actually said, lol.

And kelly don't worry, Phil doesn't answer all questions posed to him either, I've been waiting years for him to say what he did with all his wild-caught KY pine snake offspring lol.

Can we get this back to the topic please now? ;)

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by mywan » November 18th, 2012, 11:52 am

ugh wrote:Gerry, Kris, Cole- you guys should be defense attorneys. Offer your services to the misaligned Glades herps guys.
Again, it’s probably all a big misunderstanding. And purely insignificant that these guys’ table at herp shows are covered in ~80% wild caught animals. That was of course all collected and obtained by Glades herps comepletely legally. True story.
First, it wouldn't be the first time, by a long shot, the feds overreached with their indictments. That's not restricted to herping either, but certainly includes those cases as well. Second, when a grand jury hears testimony for the indictment only the prosecutors are heard, and it's done in private, with no capacity for the accused to even know its happening much less defend themselves.

So the bottom line is if you presume people are guilty based on indictments alone you'll be putting lierally hundreds of thousands of innocent people in jail in the US every year. Even now law enforcement itself estimate about 75,000 innocent people are convicted and sent to jail every year. That's about 5% of the total convictions. Are you really willing to presume guilty before they ever even know they are charged with anything, and drive those numbers through the roof?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Phil Peak » November 18th, 2012, 12:54 pm

ugh wrote:Kelly I appreciate the rare support here, thanks.
I have no reason to not put my name on here but at this point I like that it pisses off so many that now I just keep the alias lol.

Phil is putting words in my mouth. I guess like many here he has to manipulate or break things down to their most simple possible essence so they can dismiss what I've said here as 'oh just an anti-collecting tree hugger' or whatever. It's easier than adressing what I actually said, lol.

And kelly don't worry, Phil doesn't answer all questions posed to him either, I've been waiting years for him to say what he did with all his wild-caught KY pine snake offspring lol.

Can we get this back to the topic please now? ;)
Lets not get carried away there Ugh. I doubt that anyone takes you serious enough to be pissed off by your endless rhetoric, and no, I sure wouldn't want to put words in your mouth so let me ask you this - Is there ever a situation where you condone collecting? If so, feel free to tell us about this. You have seemed to assume the role of the forums resident anti-collecting fanatic. If I'm wrong set the record straight for us. Maybe I have you all wrong after all.

I have answered your question regarding my KY locale northern pines on multiple occasions. Whether you accept my answer or not is entirely up to you. I will state this again, I have never sold one nor have I ever engaged in any illegal activity regarding these animals. We collected one pair, reproduced them on a few occasions, donated babies to educational facilities including nature centers and zoo's and gifted some to friends. If you want to imply that I have done anything other than this be prepared to back it up. I don't take kindly to slander and I would have no trouble taking legal action against those that would wish to harm my good name.

Phil

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 18th, 2012, 2:19 pm

Oh your threatening lawsuits now Phil? Hmm sound pretty defensive to me, something your hiding over there? LOL get the hell outta here.

I’m not simply anti-collecting and I never said I was- if it could be done responsibly ( i.e. legally and with ecological sensitivity) but I know just way too many assholes that just don’t do it in moderation. They get greedy. And they don’t know or give a damn about possible effects on an animal’s population. These Glades herp guys are just a high-profile example of this. I have been around enough to see what goes on with these animals when we remove them from the wild for whatever reason, so I can’t be bullshitted into sympathizing for collectors in the rare case that they get caught. Explaining their rights doesn’t change or diminish what they did to get their own asses in hot water.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Phil Peak » November 18th, 2012, 2:57 pm

ugh wrote:Oh your threatening lawsuits now Phil? Hmm sound pretty defensive to me, something your hiding over there? LOL get the hell outta here.

I’m not simply anti-collecting and I never said I was- if it could be done responsibly ( i.e. legally and with ecological sensitivity) but I know just way too many assholes that just don’t do it in moderation. They get greedy. And they don’t know or give a damn about possible effects on an animal’s population. These Glades herp guys are just a high-profile example of this. I have been around enough to see what goes on with these animals when we remove them from the wild for whatever reason, so I can’t be bullshitted into sympathizing for collectors in the rare case that they get caught. Explaining their rights doesn’t change or diminish what they did to get their own asses in hot water.
Hmm... No, I post under my real name. Thats the point Ugh. I have absolutely nothing to hide while you on the other hand prefer to post under an alias. There have been times when I didn't agree with other posters on this board and lively discussions ensued. Other than you however, I can't think of a single person on this message board that ever openly questioned my ethics. You can disagree with me all you want and thats fine, but implying that I am involved in unscrupulous behavior is not acceptable, and yes, I resent that.

So you are indeed tolerant of some forms of collecting? I sure didn't get that vibe based on your earlier response to Cole on this thread. I'm glad to hear that you are now at least differentiating between types of collection. For what its worth, I'm not exactly warm and fuzzy about the Glades Herps of the world.

Phil

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by hellihooks » November 18th, 2012, 4:34 pm

As a J.E.R.K (Jerry's Exemplary Rosy Krew) ostensible, our purpose for legally collecting locality-specific rosys, is 1) to get that locality into captive bred production, to lessen collection pressure on the locality in question, and 2) in the case that certain locales suffer so much development that rosys can no longer maintain viable reproductive success, that locality bloodline is not gone forever, but rather, persists in collections. As is the case with the Yorba Linda Rosy, in the 2nd case, and say... WhiteWaters for the 1st. You can buy a cb Whitewater for usually much less than it costs, (for most folks) to go there. Yorby's aren't cheap... but one of the most spectacular localities of all... and no longer a locality that can be legally hunted, if there are any wild Yorbys even left.
While no group of people are ever 100%, ethically... those are the founding principles of a very large successful network of locality-pure rosy enthusiasts. :) jim

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by azatrox » November 18th, 2012, 5:36 pm

Gerry, Kris, Cole- you guys should be defense attorneys. Offer your services to the misaligned Glades herps guys.

Again, it’s probably all a big misunderstanding. And purely insignificant that these guys’ table at herp shows are covered in ~80% wild caught animals. That was of course all collected and obtained by Glades herps comepletely legally. True story.


None of which has bearing on the crime they are accused of committing ugh. You seem to be missing the point...They weren't arrested because "their tables are covered in ~80% wild caught animals". They were arrested for allegedly dealing with protected species. Are you being willfully ignorant or can you honestly not see the difference?

This isn’t a lab project, it’s criminal law. Which involves piecing together WHATEVER EVIDENCE YOU HAVE- and either ‘pulling the trigger’ on someone, or letting them walk. Anything beyond that just ties up the legal system excessively. And that’s the way it’s designed to work. We know their background and what they do for a buck.

Thanks for the legal lesson there ugh...Don't know if I could have continued without it. Their background HAS NO LEGAL BEARING on the specific crimes charged...either they broke the law or they didn't...They're not being charged for "a suspect background according to ugh"...They're being charged for specific instance(s) of illegal activity, not some blanket concept of "their background".

You can claim knee-jerk reaction on folks like me saying they’re guilty; of course they are. And I can claim conflict of interest or alterior motives coming from a collector/keeper like Cole.

Ugh, do you perhaps know more than we do about this case? If so, please share...otherwise I fail to see how you can conclude "of course they're guilty" based upon a news article...Unless of course you haven't bothered to analyze anything and simply lumped all accused people into the same category (i.e. guilty).

These guys will likely be back at it in no time and it’s in part because of people that don’t get this because they deny common sense. I do however think they MAY-just maybe-have enough sense not to try for NJ kings or PA rattlers again, but that’s assuming a lot.

Right...so let's jump to conclusions about what someone may or may not do in the future because "we just know"...That's sound legal theory there ugh, and I'm SURE that's just what our founders had in mind when they thought up this funny thing called our legal system...There are some "witches" in Salem that might think differently though...

We don’t have a video recording of them. Just like we didn’t of Orenthal James Simpson.
I’m pretty sure most convicted felons are actually innocent too. Again, misunderstanding.
Only in America.


Fear not fearless ugh...if these guys are the douchecanoes you are convinced they are, then yes...they'll do it again and give the authorities yet another crack at 'em. See, that's the funny thing about most criminals....they usually give you multiple tries at busting them.

I said it before and I'll say it again ugh....read carefully if you must...I'm not saying that these guys must be innocent...I'm not defending commercial collection...I'm not defending poaching of protected species...

I AM saying that they deserve their day in court prior to people like you proclaiming their guilt just because "they know the kind of people these guys are". I AM saying that the presumption of innocence applies to ALL accused people, and as such if you're one of the people that jumps to a conclusion of guilt based upon the fact that "you don't like them", then you're part of the problem, not the solution.

If they're guilty, I hope they are held accountable to the fullest extent of the law...If they're not guilty, then they should walk...I'm just not ready to tie them up and burn them alive because I don't agree with what they (allegedly) do.

-Kris

PS- For the record I couldn't care less if you attach your name to your posts. Unfounded thought is unfounded thought by any name.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Daryl Eby » November 18th, 2012, 5:40 pm

Perhaps we have Ugh all wrong. The only time I employ an alias on FHF (I have two) is to use satire to expose the ridiculousness of extreme positions to which I object (and once that is done, just proceed with frivolity).

The formula is simple.
  • 1) Choose a catchy alias name with a possible double meaning.
    2) Adopt a personality that is obnoxious and/or ridiculous in the extreme.
    3) Submit posts that sound kind of like those of the extremists to which you object, but kick it up to a level just short of nonsensical.
    4) Wait for the extremists you are mocking to rally behind you while your true allies (the enemies of your alias) have fun exposing your alias' logical fallacies.
    5) Dive into full fledged nonsense and satire.
Hey Ugh, you seem to be stuck in step four. Time to start the real fun and proceed to step five.

Perhaps I should close with, "Oh Brother".

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by hellihooks » November 18th, 2012, 5:50 pm

Daryl Eby wrote:Perhaps we have Ugh all wrong. The only time I employ an alias on FHF (I have two) is to use satire to expose the ridiculousness of extreme positions to which I object (and once that is done, just proceed with frivolity).

The formula is simple.
  • 1) Choose a catchy alias name with a possible double meaning.
    2) Adopt a personality that is obnoxious and/or ridiculous in the extreme.
    3) Submit posts that sound kind of like those of the extremists to which you object, but kick it up to a level just short of nonsensical.
    4) Wait for the extremists you are mocking to rally behind you while your true allies (the enemies of your alias) have fun exposing your alias' logical fallacies.
    5) Dive into full fledged nonsense and satire.
Hey Ugh, you seem to be stuck in step four. Time to start the real fun and proceed to step five.

Perhaps I should close with, "Oh Brother".
been done... called the Cobert Report. :D jim

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 18th, 2012, 6:49 pm

Fair enough Kris, you made your point. No argument here.
This is starting to look like a thread about me and it shouldn't be, I’d rather see the focus on these bastards getting caught; or the herps that were getting F’ed out of their wild existence at the time of the ALLEGED offense. Let’s get back to that.

What hasn't changed is the fact I’d put all I’ve got on the glades a-holes being guilty as hell but yep that’s how things work here in the states. I’m not a judge, nor juror just a herper and I’m entitled to say what I want on here as is anyone else.

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