Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 18th, 2012, 7:00 pm

As biomes shrink i think there is obligation of high order to provide alternative spaces to preserve species. Scientifically stewarded collection may be necessary. And I think as we learn more it is possible to provide cultured equations of these that support physiological and behavioral necessity.

If someday the only place left for a species or locality to exist is behind glass a captive environment would become a kind of biological cathedral.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by FunkyRes » November 18th, 2012, 7:13 pm

It should of course be pointed out it doesn't take long until captive locality bloodlines don't really represent the locality anymore.

First of all, they are selectively bred.
Do corn snakes that look like Abbott bloodline Okeetee exist at the Okeetee hunt club? Maybe once in a blue moon one hatches out that might pass for an Abbott in the pet trade, but not really. In fact my understanding is most corns at Okeetee hunt club don't have the qualities identified with Okeetee locality, the locality breeders were selective from the start.

Secondly, dispersal in natural. Locality genetics are changing, but captive lines are locked gene pool unless new WC blood is brought in to the line.

Thirdly, I have to seriously wonder how many non locality animals have a locality attached to their deli cup at the herp show to up the price by $10. There is no one monitoring this, I bet it happens a lot.

I can pretty much tell what a Redding, CA Cal King would look like, but there are many other locales that produce similar phenotype, and I've sold baby kings that match the Redding locale but were only partially Redding locale.

My little brother has a beautiful female Cal King, mother was albino father was WC Antioch locale. His particular king looks just like any Antioch Cal King except for the bottom of her tail is solid color. Every other aspect, she is visually indistinguishable from any WC Antioch stock.

Those CB locality snakes you have may not all be as locality as you think.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 18th, 2012, 7:45 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:If someday the only place left for a species or locality to exist is behind glass a captive environment would become a kind of biological cathedral.
Over the years I've heard numerous arguments for establishing captive populations of animals vanishing from the wild, from professionals, hobbyists and the general public, but I think this is the first time I've heard this particular argument. I rather like it, bittersweet though it is.

I assume you've seen the Passenger Pigeon Memorial (centered around a taxidermy mount of Martha, the last known passenger pigeon) at the Cincinnati Zoo, Kelly? I found it pretty moving, and imagine Martha's exhibit must have been even more so way back when she was alive. It inspired me to acquire, mount and frame over the years a number of published illustrations (e.g. from old or very old books that have been disassembled due to damage) of various animal species that are now extinct but weren't even known to be in trouble at the time of publication, which I use as office art. I guess I wanted my work space to be surrounded with such a memorial, to help remind me why I do much of what I do.

And of course we do actually manage to put the occasional species back into the wild nowadays, too, albeit at enormous effort and expense. Before too much longer we will probably even be able to revive some species that now exist only as preserved specimens, of course at even more enormous effort and expense.

Gerry

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by azatrox » November 19th, 2012, 5:36 am

And of course we do actually manage to put the occasional species back into the wild nowadays, too, albeit at enormous effort and expense. Before too much longer we will probably even be able to revive some species that now exist only as preserved specimens, of course at even more enormous effort and expense.

The Tarahumara Leopard frog has been successfully reintroduced into some former habitat here in Az after being exitrpated from the state.

Eastern Indigos have also been reintroduced into former habitat as well (of course, this species was never extirpated but is definitely in trouble in many areas).

So there's at least some encouraging news.

-Kris

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by hellihooks » November 19th, 2012, 6:30 am

Jeff Lemm's Yellow leg Frog Reintroduction project is going very well, as well.
Back in the day, when I worked for Jetts Petting Zoo, I raised a Chinese Spotted leopard from a 2-day old cub. People would walk by 'tiger kitty's' cage and often rail that Leopards should be free, and not in a cage. Cept... they are extinct in the wild, and only exist in Zoo's and private collections. If you DID try to reintroduce them, they would quickly end up in a jar, so old chinese guys could pop a boner again. :roll:

It's not so much 'if' something is collected, but 'why'. If done for the intrinsic value of the creature (preservation of the species) then I say we (humans) have an obligation to try and save what species we can, in the midst of the worst mass extinction this planet has ever seen (largely caused by us)
If the collection occurs for purely extrinsic reasons (profit) then that displays the worst that people can be... greedy short-sighted bastards, who don't give a shit what happens to the world, after they are gone.
Where you choose to reside, on that continuum tween the two extremes, says who you are, as a person. jim

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Cole Grover » November 19th, 2012, 8:15 am

Phil,
Thanks for stepping in here on my behalf. The wife and I have a new baby at home, so my free time on the interwebs is more limited these days! Hope all's well in Kentucky.
ugh wrote:You can claim knee-jerk reaction on folks like me saying they’re guilty; of course they are. And I can claim conflict of interest or alterior motives coming from a collector/keeper like Cole.
Holy wow! WTF?! What's with the accusations, dude? Why so harsh? In case you didn't read my original post in this thread, I stated that I was ready to jump on the bandwagon and burn these guys at the stake, too. I'm not keen on their ethics, either... far from it, actually. Then I read more posts, relaxed a little, and re-thought my position. With regard to the legal issues at hand, they're due the same rights as anyone else.
ugh wrote:Cole ok so from what you're saying most locale keepers are borderline angelic
I actually said nothing of the sort. I didn't even insinutate that. All I did was provide my rationale behind what I do. Don't read more into what I wrote than what's there.
ugh wrote:And Cole you DO live in the middle of nowhere so maybe you can’t really comment on this east coast stuff (re: where these herps were bagged and the encroachment of step-apes on their shrinking habitat).
True that. I'd say you're probably right. I've herped places near cities where someone else has recently been and have seen overturned rocks, etc. Next hillside - same story. It sucks. More people = more encroachment. I'm with you on that. Ever been out here? It's a different world.
ugh wrote:Justify all you want little buddy.
I'm not trying to justify anything, nor do I need to. I haven't seen the need to broach the "right or wrong" issue. I'm perfectly aware that it's largely self-serving. I get tons of personal gratification. It's a fun hobby for me.
ugh wrote:but I know just way too many assholes that just don’t do it in moderation. They get greedy. And they don’t know or give a damn about possible effects on an animal’s population.
I'm glad we don't run in the same circles, then. Those sound like bad dudes.
ugh wrote:These Glades herp guys are just a high-profile example of this.
I agree with you. My only contention is with the legal issue, here. They're probably guilty of all sorts of ethical violations, but this thread is about the legal ones.
ugh wrote:What hasn't changed is the fact I’d put all I’ve got on the glades a-holes being guilty as hell but yep that’s how things work here in the states. I’m not a judge, nor juror just a herper and I’m entitled to say what I want on here as is anyone else.
Totally. I'm not going to fault you for that. I wished you hadn't unnecessarily bashed me, but whatever. It's the internet.
azatrox wrote:if these guys are the douchecanoes you are convinced they are, then yes...they'll do it again and give the authorities yet another crack at 'em. See, that's the funny thing about most criminals....they usually give you multiple tries at busting them.
Exactly. "Habitual offenders," I believe is the legal term.
FunkyRes wrote:Those CB locality snakes you have may not all be as locality as you think.
Locality data is only as good as the word of the guy you got them from. No argument there. It pays to be selective, if that's your gig. Like I said, very few people, relatively, even care. It's not just snakes, either. Frogs, lizards, turtles, etc. are bred in locality-"pure" programs, too. Some "generic" lines of captive-bred animals are indistinguishable from some "locality" lines, absolutely. That's not what's important to me, though. It's just getting that little bit of extra natural history data that matters to me.
FunkyRes wrote:It should of course be pointed out it doesn't take long until captive locality bloodlines don't really represent the locality anymore.
There are tons of on-line discussions about that, Michael. Some published in scientific journals, too. There are strong arguments both ways. Any population cut off from the parental stock (like a captive line) is going to see some genetic drift, artificial selection, etc. Is it enough to matter? It depends on who you ask. Suffice to say that organizations like Amphibian ARK, etc. are using locality-matched specimens in their species survival programs. Anyway, here we are on a side-track, again (or still). We can take this to PM, if you want, Michael. I'm not sure that we really disagree, though, in the whole scheme of things. It basically boils down to preferences.

-Cole

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 19th, 2012, 8:35 am

The situation presented by China is tough, all right, with their very long-time commitment to market hunting to satisfy their tremendous appetite for both bushmeat and traditional medicine. On the other hand, if/when tigers are reintroduced anywhere it will likely be there, as they've still lots of remote area in which the animals could succeed if left alone, and a government that can effectively frighten its populace into accepting whatever the government wants. Someone I used to work with has been communicating with Chinese officials (originally at their request) on this subject off and on for several years, but he recently told me it's gone absolutely nowhere as yet.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but... You'll be happy to know that no "Chinese Spotted" leopard has gone extinct in the wild in modern times, Jim. The closest any leopard subspecies comes to that so far as I'm aware is the Amur leopard (Panthera pardus orientalis), which was at one point thought to be extirpated in China and the Koreas and to remain only in one small part of Russia, but they now believe there are still a handful of animals in northeastern China as well. The subspecies is obviously in quite dire straits, though.

I find the commercial collection of live animals personally distasteful, but that's about as far as it goes. We all bear at least some responsibility for all kinds of terrible things that we still do to the environment, its animals and our fellow humans in pursuit of profit, comfort, convenience, amusement, etc., and whatever modicum of actual harm the live wild animal trade ever manages to accomplish truly pales in comparison. Properly regulated, the business would really do nothing but a service to those interested in keeping exotic pets and maintaining captive populations of wild animals, anyway. (Zoos and aquariums traditionally got virtually every animal in their collections from commercial collectors, after all, and still get a great many of them that way.)

I just saw your post while proofreading mine, Cole: Hey, congratulations on the new baby! :beer: ugh can be quite dramatically (and equally unfairly) accusatory at times; I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about him.

Gerry

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by hellihooks » November 19th, 2012, 8:56 am

gbin wrote: I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, but... You'll be happy to know that no "Chinese Spotted" leopard has gone extinct in the wild in modern times, Jim. The closest any leopard subspecies comes to that so far as I'm aware is the Amur leopard (Panthera pardus orientalis), which was at one point thought to be extirpated in China and the Koreas and to remain only in one small part of Russia, but they now believe there are still a handful of animals in northeastern China as well. The subspecies is obviously in quite dire straits, though.
Gerry
That was the info I had, at that time, from my boss, and was what I told folks who complained about our leopard in a cage. I am glad they are not extinct, but worry for wild cats everywhere. Thank you for the update.

As for selective breeding of cb's... that (admittedly) holds VERY true for rosys. 'Screamers' are collected... dogs stay free. Each clutch... screamers are held back for next generation of breeders... average individuals are sold. Within a few generations, the available cb's no longer actually represent the original locality. Some rosy guys I know, however, eschew this trend and only purchase cb's that accurately represent the locality. And there is SO MUCH natural variability, to be had. see J. Easter's poster... rosys rule... :D jim

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Hornemadness » November 19th, 2012, 10:42 am

Keeping locality specific is like keeping anything else (morphs, hybrids, etc). Its a preference and nothing more.
Lets get this thread back on track and quit with the stuff that doesn't have anything to do with Glades Herps and the charges being levied against them. Ugh is probably just some troll, don't feed the troll. Listen to the Phil Hendrie show if you don't know what im talking about.

I honestly hope that these guys get whats coming to them. This wouldn't be the first time they did something questionable. A quick search of the BOI would confirm it.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 19th, 2012, 2:56 pm

Cole my apologies if I misread the gist of what you were saying.....I feel like I've already said all I was trying to say on the topic.

Indigo blue I'd answer anything anyone wants to know about me-anyone who knows me will vouch I'm no hypocrite- but you didn't even give me a chance to answer and now you're just pushin the envelope, so how can I say this without getting myself or this thread deleted......knock it the F--K off, seriously.
And check your pm's.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by ugh » November 20th, 2012, 7:29 am

While we're sidetracked here-and not that it matters to me- but you keep talking down about my anonymity, implying I'm a hypocrite or whatever-AND NO ONE KNOWS WHO THE HELL YOU ARE? WTF, practice what you preach, you know?

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 20th, 2012, 8:02 am

I also do not understand why it is acceptable to pack up against one individual, yet completely ignore the aggressively provocative behavior of another?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by azatrox » November 20th, 2012, 9:07 pm

I also do not understand why it is acceptable to pack up against one individual, yet completely ignore the aggressively provocative behavior of another?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no interest in "packing up against one individual". Ugh stated some things that I took issue with, I stated my rebuttal and he stated his and the issue is over. Such was my involvement (and interest) in this thread.

Once this (or any) issue becomes personal with a bunch of allegations and implications flying around that are levied by people that don't even know each other, I find that my interest in the topic at hand wanes rather quickly...as it has here.

-Kris

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by MuayThaipan » November 20th, 2012, 9:47 pm

If the other your referring to Kelly, is Phil Peak, Phil is highly respected in his field as well as his state and this board. The other one, this ugh has not proven himself.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 20th, 2012, 10:43 pm

No, I was not referring to Phil Peak.

Or any of the other members who were having differences sincerely.

I was referring to the Indigo girl.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 21st, 2012, 9:05 am

I mean no offense in knowing you are a woman. Its not an insult.

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Phil Peak
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Phil Peak » November 21st, 2012, 2:54 pm

Cole Grover wrote:Phil,
Thanks for stepping in here on my behalf. The wife and I have a new baby at home, so my free time on the interwebs is more limited these days! Hope all's well in Kentucky .
You're welcome Cole. Congrats on the new baby! Thats an exciting time for sure. Our daughter and her husband are due next week. It'll be our first grandchild so the wife and I are pretty excited!

MuayThaipan wrote:If the other your referring to Kelly, is Phil Peak, Phil is highly respected in his field as well as his state and this board. The other one, this ugh has not proven himself.

Thanks for the kind words Doug! Much appreciated.

Phil

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 27th, 2012, 7:50 am

On another note, previously there were 3 fair questions. :)

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by regalringneck » November 27th, 2012, 8:34 am

.. strange thread, & i havent read 1/2 of it :p

...willardi's comments are very aligned w/ my view, tho id go furthur & say ive enjoyed the hell out of glades over the years and even got my female mussurana from Rob. How many of us have kept very cool critters over the years w/ a node at glades? So im a bit bummed & say it aint so joe ... and they did i guess. id think anyone in this business otta be smart enough to know; theyre gonna be constantly probed & prodded, (as it should be) by the authorities. The rules need to be clear & consistent though ... thus the need for armys of lawyers ... ah yes ... the rules & then the sub-processes for rich & the poor ...
Dr. B; that display of covers of taxa lost in the interim is a very original thought, hhmmm ... kelly's concept of a "biological cathedral" while appealing at some level, might be better described as a transparent headstone ... ugh ... & typ'n of which, back to eby, it'd be interesting to know how many here have more than 1 login name beyond our own funny guy; hubbs or whomever! Ugh, u'r obviously young, relax, life generally gets better : )
Lots of intelligent measured responses; rare class; good on you all, good luck to glades and all the small businesses of the world!

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 27th, 2012, 9:29 am

I could hold the dust and tiny rocks in my hand like a gospel of dirt and daydream about the vanquished . .

But I look and see them and they are Alive and I quietly will bring them water and watch them and see stories that are the realest ones to find written all over their perfect bodies; and how they turn, and pause.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » November 27th, 2012, 10:06 am

Does the state of occupancy on a rampantly imposed planet, make moot the observations of morphology, locomotion and myriad other mysteries of a living organism?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by dery » November 27th, 2012, 12:03 pm

IndigoBlue wrote:Why do I get the strong feeling that this guy/gal Ugh has collected wild caught animals before and probably even has some currently in his collection? It seems to me this person is one of those that feels it is ok to do it themself but not others. I would bet on the house that this person is a total hypocrite.

On the topic of the Indigos, does anyone know where the founding animals that were bred and produced offspring to be released in Alabama originated from? Or perhaps down in Florida?
many of us used to collect wc's as a kid. maybe you too. so unless you know that someone still collects and have proof, for example, that jerk lordherpington; why point the finger??

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by tai haku » November 28th, 2012, 7:02 am

gbin wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:If someday the only place left for a species or locality to exist is behind glass a captive environment would become a kind of biological cathedral.
Over the years I've heard numerous arguments for establishing captive populations of animals vanishing from the wild, from professionals, hobbyists and the general public, but I think this is the first time I've heard this particular argument. I rather like it, bittersweet though it is.

I assume you've seen the Passenger Pigeon Memorial (centered around a taxidermy mount of Martha, the last known passenger pigeon) at the Cincinnati Zoo, Kelly? I found it pretty moving, and imagine Martha's exhibit must have been even more so way back when she was alive. It inspired me to acquire, mount and frame over the years a number of published illustrations (e.g. from old or very old books that have been disassembled due to damage) of various animal species that are now extinct but weren't even known to be in trouble at the time of publication, which I use as office art. I guess I wanted my work space to be surrounded with such a memorial, to help remind me why I do much of what I do.


Gerry
Off topic but any chance of a post showing your collection Gerry? - sounds intriguing. There has been a rather wonderful travelling art project doing the rounds in the UK focussed on bird extinctions; details here (although sadly almost all my favourite pieces don't feature on the website) http://www.ghostsofgonebirds.com/Home.html

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 28th, 2012, 7:21 pm

I'd be delighted to share my office art with you - thanks for asking! Unfortunately all of it is currently packed away (I'm between jobs at present, and we've been readying our house to be put on the market), but I believe in an older computer than the one at which I'm now sitting and that shouldn't take too much effort for me to hook up I still have the picture files that accompanied the ebay auctions through which I bought the old art prints. The artwork won't be matted and framed in those pictures, but of course their own haunting beauty is why I bought them in the first place. Give me a day or two to see what I can turn up.

There's some beautiful and haunting art in that Ghosts of Gone Birds exhibit, too - thanks for posting that link! Some of it reminds me of work by a contemporary artist here in the U.S. whom I've long admired - Chris Augusta. Sadly, he's revamped his website a number of times over the years and in the process removed all of the work of his that I most admired (and that's most relevant to this discussion), so I won't bother posting a link to it. He used to do a lot of paintings of African wildlife, and in particular of many of the cichlids there; he had a way of depicting fish (from an underwater perspective) such that you had the feeling of them swimming into and out of view in murky water. There's a painting he did called "Haplos" (short for haplochromine cichlids) that I believe hangs (or at least used to hang) at either the Baltimore Zoo or Aquarium and depicts a mixed school of Lake Victoria cichlids in this fashion, which is especially appropriate given that scientists believe some half of the lake's amazing cichlid species flock - literally hundreds of species - vanished shortly after the introduction of the Nile perch to the lake in the 1950s (an interesting and ecologically horrifying tale told in the book Darwin's Dreampond). If I ever become wealthy enough, I mean to track down that painting and buy it.

I think this is a way more interesting discussion than what the guys at Glades might or might not have done (though it was an interesting bit of news that I'm glad our OP shared here). ;) Hopefully our OP doesn't mind the diversion.

Gerry

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by tai haku » November 29th, 2012, 12:38 pm

gbin wrote:I'd be delighted to share my office art with you - thanks for asking! Unfortunately all of it is currently packed away (I'm between jobs at present, and we've been readying our house to be put on the market), but I believe in an older computer than the one at which I'm now sitting and that shouldn't take too much effort for me to hook up I still have the picture files that accompanied the ebay auctions through which I bought the old art prints. The artwork won't be matted and framed in those pictures, but of course their own haunting beauty is why I bought them in the first place. Give me a day or two to see what I can turn up.

There's some beautiful and haunting art in that Ghosts of Gone Birds exhibit, too - thanks for posting that link! Some of it reminds me of work by a contemporary artist here in the U.S. whom I've long admired - Chris Augusta. Sadly, he's revamped his website a number of times over the years and in the process removed all of the work of his that I most admired (and that's most relevant to this discussion), so I won't bother posting a link to it. He used to do a lot of paintings of African wildlife, and in particular of many of the cichlids there; he had a way of depicting fish (from an underwater perspective) such that you had the feeling of them swimming into and out of view in murky water. There's a painting he did called "Haplos" (short for haplochromine cichlids) that I believe hangs (or at least used to hang) at either the Baltimore Zoo or Aquarium and depicts a mixed school of Lake Victoria cichlids in this fashion, which is especially appropriate given that scientists believe some half of the lake's amazing cichlid species flock - literally hundreds of species - vanished shortly after the introduction of the Nile perch to the lake in the 1950s (an interesting and ecologically horrifying tale told in the book Darwin's Dreampond). If I ever become wealthy enough, I mean to track down that painting and buy it.

I think this is a way more interesting discussion than what the guys at Glades might or might not have done (though it was an interesting bit of news that I'm glad our OP shared here). ;) Hopefully our OP doesn't mind the diversion.

Gerry
A long long time ago my dad used to breed malawi haplochromines - they've always been a favourite of mine; i'll have to look for that painting.

In the interests of completely derailing this thread here's my favourite piece from ghosts of gone birds. Cally Higginbottom produced a triptych of Bachman's Warblers embroidered into birch bark and fading into history. The top picture is part I and the bottom part III. I still wish I'd bought it.

Image

Image

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » November 29th, 2012, 3:22 pm

tai haku wrote:... Cally Higginbottom produced a triptych of Bachman's Warblers embroidered into birch bark and fading into history...
Holy cow, that's good...

Gerry

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Tim Borski » November 30th, 2012, 2:44 am

The "bird on birch" is not Bachman's.

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by dery » November 30th, 2012, 6:36 am

Tim Borski wrote:The "bird on birch" is not Bachman's.
Im not much of an ornithologist. :?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by tai haku » November 30th, 2012, 10:33 am

dery wrote:
Tim Borski wrote:The "bird on birch" is not Bachman's.
Im not much of an ornithologist. :?
Or perhaps neither is the artist. The piece was labelled as referencing Bachman's but Tim's right about it not being an accurate representation. Normally that sort of thing would put me right off it but I guess the fact it doesn't shows how much I must like it. When funds finally allow it it'll sit in my pool room/man cave with some other such art - there's this guy in Florida I met once who also does stunning art occasionally featuring american wood warblers!

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Tim Borski » November 30th, 2012, 4:56 pm

Just to be clear, I in know way meant to slight the work. I simply pointed out it is not Bachman’s.

tai, you’ve got good taste in art; I like it too.

Tim

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by dery » November 30th, 2012, 6:58 pm

Same here. I love that piece of art.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Kelly Mc » December 1st, 2012, 5:55 pm

I love it too. Its got me.

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » December 3rd, 2012, 8:55 pm

gbin wrote:I'd be delighted to share my office art with you - thanks for asking! Unfortunately all of it is currently packed away (I'm between jobs at present, and we've been readying our house to be put on the market), but I believe in an older computer than the one at which I'm now sitting and that shouldn't take too much effort for me to hook up I still have the picture files that accompanied the ebay auctions through which I bought the old art prints. The artwork won't be matted and framed in those pictures, but of course their own haunting beauty is why I bought them in the first place. Give me a day or two to see what I can turn up.
I don't know why, but the only jpg I'm finding of my office artwork is this rather poor picture of what is actually a lovely chromolithograph of passenger pigeons by Theodore Jasper for the 1888 edition of Jacob Studer's Popular Ornithology: The Birds of North America:

Image

Sorry to make you wait so long for so little. I can't imagine where the other files are (and I can't tell you how disturbed I am by the fact that this kind of thing seems to be happening to me more and more - I used to be so organized!), but if/when I turn them up I'll find some way to share them.

Gerry

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by tai haku » December 4th, 2012, 3:27 pm

interesting how (and I don't know quite how to describe this so bear with me) "straight" and "upright" compared to most pigeons they're posed in that. I've noticed the skins/mounts I've seen have that look but had assumed that was a result of the treatment and looking back you can see it in a few other depictions. It'd be interesting to be able to see if that was a "jizz" feature that was obvious in a living bird..

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Soopaman
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by Soopaman » December 4th, 2012, 3:29 pm

tai haku wrote:It'd be interesting to be able to see if that was a "jizz" feature that was obvious in a living bird..
Uh, come again?

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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by tai haku » December 8th, 2012, 7:08 am

Soopaman wrote:
tai haku wrote:It'd be interesting to be able to see if that was a "jizz" feature that was obvious in a living bird..
Uh, come again?
Oops sorry soopaman - just saw this, "jizz" is a phrase some birders use to describe a way of identifying birds on their general look rather than on the basis of a specific identification feature. Some people think jizz is a contraction of "just is", others say its a corruption of an acronym "General Impression of Size and Shape"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizz_%28birding%29

I was wondering if the look of passenger pigeon in those contemporary drawings would mean it had a very distinct look on a first glance as compared to the various other native american pigeons.

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gbin
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by gbin » December 8th, 2012, 8:16 am

tai haku wrote:... "jizz" is a phrase some birders use to describe a way of identifying birds on their general look rather than on the basis of a specific identification feature. Some people think jizz is a contraction of "just is", others say its a corruption of an acronym "General Impression of Size and Shape"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizz_%28birding%29
Interesting. It seems as if it could also be an abbreviation/corruption of "gestalt." (I was curious about your term, too, but I was reluctant to say anything due to the possible paths down which it might lead this thread. :o Thanks for coming back and clearing the matter up!)

Gerry

P.S. Added by edit: Oops! I checked out the Wikipedia entry right after posting my comment, and discovered they'd already addressed the possibility of the term coming from "gestalt."

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FunkyRes
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Re: Glades Herp Boys in deep trouble...

Post by FunkyRes » December 14th, 2012, 4:06 pm

tai haku wrote:
Soopaman wrote:
tai haku wrote:It'd be interesting to be able to see if that was a "jizz" feature that was obvious in a living bird..
Uh, come again?
Oops sorry soopaman - just saw this, "jizz" is a phrase some birders use to describe a way of identifying birds on their general look rather than on the basis of a specific identification feature. Some people think jizz is a contraction of "just is", others say its a corruption of an acronym "General Impression of Size and Shape"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizz_%28birding%29

I was wondering if the look of passenger pigeon in those contemporary drawings would mean it had a very distinct look on a first glance as compared to the various other native american pigeons.
We tend to use the word Gestalt for that.

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