So your spots are getting pounded ...

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Brian Hubbs » September 6th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Who cares?

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Ross Padilla
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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Ross Padilla » September 6th, 2010, 11:24 pm

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klawnskale
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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by klawnskale » September 7th, 2010, 5:38 am

A larger sample size of other previous field notes from herpers during the same era might be more convincing to me. One sample doesn't prove too much.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Brian Hubbs » September 7th, 2010, 7:57 am

Then I suggest you conduct your own survey of 40 nights at WW from April to Sep and see what you find... :lol:

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 7th, 2010, 8:11 am

Ross Padilla wrote:
gulo wrote:A snake doesn't care how much all those people ferreting them out, circling them for photos, handling them, etc. love them. It is harassment to them and causes environmental stress.
How about the snake in your avatar? Was it not manipulated to pose that position on dirt in the middle of the day like that? Or do you not practice what you preach?
Not sure what practice you're referring to, as i'm not preaching. Just stating a glaringly obvious fact of human nature, the corollary being how easy we find it to reflect, "There's all kinds of bad effects from the things that other people do."

I think it's totally reasonable to hypothesize that herpers today may be doing harm inadvertently through their sheer numbers. More than the handful of hobby collectors from the old days, i'd guess. Less than the commercial collectors almost certainly.

Myself, i've negatively affected some snakes for sure, directly and indirectly. Especially the ones i know of that i've outright killed. Or the ones we killed during "bona-fide" scientific study.

Not saying do or don't do anything. But i do think it's important to be aware of the effect you have on things. (The snake in the avatar was captive-hatched from a wild caught and released female. Dunno what my effect was there.)

Anyway, I can tell it's something you think about yourself. Nothing like folks jumping immediately to the defensive - even when there may be nothing to defend - to suggest you're on to something, somewhere.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Nshepard » September 7th, 2010, 9:30 am

Yeah, that site sucks. Many museum herp departments are not allowing there records to be used but the organization that is behind it is a "good" name to work with. I convinced the herp department I used to work for not to contribute. Shit sucks! But starting this tread here might cause unethical viewers to look deeper in this....I say we delete this tread asap!

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Ross Padilla » September 7th, 2010, 9:41 am

Your comments earlier came off you were pretty much against us field herpers posing and photographing snakes, I'm glad to hear you're not completely against that. I'm all for the in situ shots and bothering the snakes as little as possible.
gulo wrote:I think it's totally reasonable to hypothesize that herpers today may be doing harm inadvertently through their sheer numbers.
Forget about my comments against you on that subject. When you said "herper traffic" I was thinking night driving but you probably could have been referring to other situations like road side rocky outcrops in well known areas. In that case I completely agree there has been a negative effect one way or the other.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Brian Hubbs » September 7th, 2010, 10:29 am

I think he meant too many people looking and photographing the same animals at the same places too much of the time. One herper bothering a snake once is not a big deal, but if a lot of people go to the same places over and over it might turn into a problem for some species. This is not the case with snakes like Cal Kings, or turtles, or even lizards, but some species might be more sensitive to multiple intrusions into their lives. I doubt we screw up the life cycle of a night snake if we lift its board too often, but a Timber rattler might react differently. Sorry to butt in again, but you just seem to be a little dense, Ross... :lol:

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Ross Padilla » September 7th, 2010, 10:45 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh you're just sore because I proved your definition of the Grease king morph was unwarranted. Imagine that, Hubbs was wrong about a CA kingsnake. :lol: Image


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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 7th, 2010, 11:52 am

I'm a field herper myself, from way back. I know i've done some damage. The popularity of herping worries me now more, though. The old "love em to death" thing. I'm the same - i prefer mostly just seeing them in situ. But many folks at least start out needing to do the croc hunter number.

I knew a herp professor who did a little study along a little-used path that was "infested" with garter snakes. He took a large enough sample to run the stats. The study was simple - does my regular use of this path deter the snakes. No chasing, no stopping, no catching - just walking the path and noting the # of snakes seen. The trend over time was that less and less garter snakes frequented the area of the path over the course of the study - this is after controlling for weather and season, etc. He was pretty strongly convinced that just his regular presence on the path was affecting the garters.

These "lower" life forms may be more sensitive than we think. I live not far from one of the continent's best trout rivers. Veteran fisherman tell me that while there are just as many trout caught as when there were far less fishermen, you almost never see them rise anymore like in the old days. He figures the fishermen have had an effect on the trout's habits.

Anyway, no attack - just food for thought. Many of our problems wouldn't be problems if there weren't so damn many people in general.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Brian Hubbs » September 7th, 2010, 12:09 pm

Ross, you proved nothing...go look at the CA chapter thread again...yellow bands cannot be on a greaser...

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Ross Padilla » September 7th, 2010, 12:39 pm

gulo- Interesting stuff. Thanks
Brian Hubbs wrote:Ross, you proved nothing...go look at the CA chapter thread again...yellow bands cannot be on a greaser...
Oh goody, we get to go another round. :lol:

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gbin » September 7th, 2010, 4:28 pm

gulo wrote:I knew a herp professor who did a little study along a little-used path that was "infested" with garter snakes. He took a large enough sample to run the stats. The study was simple - does my regular use of this path deter the snakes. No chasing, no stopping, no catching - just walking the path and noting the # of snakes seen. The trend over time was that less and less garter snakes frequented the area of the path over the course of the study - this is after controlling for weather and season, etc. He was pretty strongly convinced that just his regular presence on the path was affecting the garters.
He might have been convinced of that, and some others here might be from your telling the tale, too, but I'm not at all. He has no idea why he observed fewer garter snakes through time; maybe it was due to his repeated presence, and maybe it was due to some factor(s) totally unrelated to his activities. He doesn't even know whether there were actually fewer garter snakes; maybe they were simply less visible to him through time. It takes more than data and statistics to make a proper scientific study.

Gerry

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by stlouisdude » September 7th, 2010, 5:34 pm

Maybe what the snakes were preying on were what moved due to his activities or some other factor or maybe they just tired of seeing him and moved 2 feet out of sight.

Sometimes I venture into the more remote parts of my state and it is not always easy to find snakes in those places. In some areas, the snakes seem as common as worms. In other areas that appear just as good and certainly have very, very little human activity snakes can way more difficult to find. Then again, in some places in St. Louis County the snakes are thick despite a ton of humans around. I guess from what I am seeing humans simply walking around does not seem to have much of an effect on my chances of locating snakes.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Mike Pingleton » September 7th, 2010, 5:45 pm

gulo wrote:
I think it's totally reasonable to hypothesize that herpers today may be doing harm inadvertently through their sheer numbers.
Sheer numbers? How many field herpers do you reckon are out there? Limited to North America, let's say.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Brian Hubbs » September 7th, 2010, 6:00 pm

5,235,641

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Mike Pingleton » September 7th, 2010, 6:05 pm

If we had that many in the ranks, we'd own a Congressman or two.
Brian Hubbs wrote:5,235,641

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Brian Hubbs » September 7th, 2010, 6:24 pm

No, all of us are poor...

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Daryl Eby » September 7th, 2010, 6:28 pm

gulo wrote:I knew a herp professor who did a little study along a little-used path that was "infested" with garter snakes. He took a large enough sample to run the stats. The study was simple - does my regular use of this path deter the snakes.
Wasn't there a study discussed here about a year or so back about 'saugas being disturbed my human foot traffic? If I recall correctly (not necessarily a safe assumption), the researchers radio tagged a group of 'saugas in a park that had heavy foot traffic. After they caught them, sedated them, implanted them, released them, and tracked them, the snakes moved. Their conclusion was that the snakes were disturbed by the people walking through the park. (((Where the heck is the "DOH" smiley when I need it?)))

Some studies are better than others. Unless you left out some details about your herp professor's study or I missed some details about the above 'sauga study, they were both pretty worthless.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by stlouisdude » September 7th, 2010, 6:35 pm

There is an area with saugas near me that has a lot of human activity. The saugas can still be found hanging around the hiking trail near a busy damn. There are not a lot in the area near the trail, but that's only because they are coming from the smallest known den in that area. I do remember reading a study on sauga movements similar to that but the details escape me

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by lashinala2 » September 8th, 2010, 2:05 am

My gut instinct was to say 'try to discourage people from bothering herps' when I read this. However, after giving it more thought, I think we need to be practicing aversion conditioning on the animals, conditioning them to dislike human contact (but not hurt them) if we want them to keep an effective population in the wild. Even though most people on this sight think herps are cool to touch and/or photograph, every time you get really close, and the animal kind of ignores you, you are doing it a disservice. It's being conditioned to think our species is not a threat, when most other people are. Think of someone actually handling a wild snake or maybe feeding an box turtle: after a while the animal may even look forward to the encounter instead of instinctually avoiding us, setting it up for the inevitable....a collector, a poacher, or just plain stupid person that 'kills critters'.
And there is at least 1 congressperson that has herped before....actually several. :beer:

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 8th, 2010, 10:45 pm

It is possible the snakes in the garter study were affected by the professor, and possible they weren't. I don't think the point is whether it is conclusive or not - it isn't - but rather is it food for thought, more study, or simply caution. Keep in mind that scientists have known for years about a phenomenon called "observer effect." The fact of you being there changing the outcome of the study. (On a totally left field note, there have been studies strongly suggesting that we can affect machines with our thoughts, let alone other living things. Not sure i believe that either, but who knows...)

I have been involved with studies of rattlesnake dens - intensive stuff that was highly invasive - that emptied of rattlesnakes over the course of the several years of study. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that it was the human intrusion that caused the snakes to abandon the den. But maybe not.

During the same study, there was a spell were a badger (or badgers) began predating every den we visited, in order. I expect this may have been an effect of ours, too. Like a wolverine following a trapline.

Anymore I think people would be wise to follow "the way of ignorance." Assume you don't know too much, 'cos you can be sure that as soon as you start thinking you do, you're a lot more likely to do damage. The snake dens i know of I rarely visit now. Less than once a season, generally. Part of the reason is because i don't want to cause influence. One of the dens was discovered a number of years ago by other herpers - guys i knew - not collectors, but still guys who liked to play with their snake hooks and tongs - who told me of their amazing find! (Oh shit, I thought.) I was the only guy visiting this den for years. Now whenever i go, i find human sign, shoe and boot prints and flattened vegetation. In the span of a few years, there were far fewer snakes. In this case, I am absolutely convinced this is no coincidence. I know of enough dens that if i want to see a den spring and fall, I can live any given one alone for years.

It's all a crap shoot anyway. People on the whole will not quit doing what they do, not for any reason. They will find justification. And for every person who quits doing something they think is having a harmful effect, there are usually two or three more happy to take up where they left off. It's the way of humanity. This has been the trend with herping, as i've observed it. Herpers will continue to hunt herps. If we're lucky, it doesn't affect them much. If we're not, it does. All I know is no one can say one way or the other for sure, except in specific cases.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gbin » September 9th, 2010, 3:22 am

gulo wrote:... One of the dens was discovered a number of years ago by other herpers - guys i knew - not collectors, but still guys who liked to play with their snake hooks and tongs - who told me of their amazing find! (Oh shit, I thought.) I was the only guy visiting this den for years. Now whenever i go, i find human sign, shoe and boot prints and flattened vegetation. In the span of a few years, there were far fewer snakes. In this case, I am absolutely convinced this is no coincidence...
I really don't mean to pick on you, gulo, but again, I'm not convinced in the slightest. There could have been many causes totally unrelated to human visitation for you to find fewer snakes at that den in subsequent years - I'm sure if you try you can think of quite a number, yourself - and it could even have been that the snakes were still there but for some reason(s) were not as visible to you. Anecdotal observations such as you're reporting aren't worthless, but mostly their value lies in suggesting areas where proper scientific study is called for, and definitely not in drawing conclusions. Personal perception is just too misleading.

Gerry

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by chad ks » September 9th, 2010, 9:25 am

gbin wrote:
gulo wrote:... One of the dens was discovered a number of years ago by other herpers - guys i knew - not collectors, but still guys who liked to play with their snake hooks and tongs - who told me of their amazing find! (Oh shit, I thought.) I was the only guy visiting this den for years. Now whenever i go, i find human sign, shoe and boot prints and flattened vegetation. In the span of a few years, there were far fewer snakes. In this case, I am absolutely convinced this is no coincidence...
I really don't mean to pick on you, gulo, but again, I'm not convinced in the slightest. There could have been many causes totally unrelated to human visitation for you to find fewer snakes at that den in subsequent years - I'm sure if you try you can think of quite a number, yourself - and it could even have been that the snakes were still there but for some reason(s) were not as visible to you. Anecdotal observations such as you're reporting aren't worthless, but mostly their value lies in suggesting areas where proper scientific study is called for, and definitely not in drawing conclusions. Personal perception is just too misleading.

Gerry
Agreed, that was not at all persuasive to me...

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Daryl Eby » September 9th, 2010, 9:49 am

chad ks wrote:
gbin wrote:
gulo wrote:... One of the dens was discovered a number of years ago by other herpers ...
I really don't mean to pick on you, gulo, but again, I'm not convinced in the slightest...
Agreed, that was not at all persuasive to me...
Serves as a darn good cautionary tale, but not proof. If "gulo" is accurate in his repeated observation of human sign and if those humans are persistently handling the snakes, it makes sense that the snakes would either relocate, be more hesitant to openly expose themselves, or retreat more quickly when humans approach. None or those outcomes are necessarily harmful to the snakes (in fact, the last two could be beneficial), but all three would have negative impacts on herpers.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by chrish » September 9th, 2010, 1:19 pm

Getting back to the original issue of public sites posting specific data (anyone seen GeoHerper.com?), I think the solution is simple - dilute the data.

If everyone who was upset about this logged into Geo-herper and entered some "data" we could put an end to this. If we put in enough specific "data", the real data would be hard to find. Imagine all the cool herps you could find in the middle of football stadiums, churches, elementary schools, etc.!

Gotta go, I need to find the GPS coordinates for my local zoo herp house. :lol:

I'm not proposing putting fake data into those databases that represent respectable institutions (museums, NAHerp.com), but this GeoHerper thing is a disaster. Of course, at the rate of 10 entries every six months, I don't think they are letting out much information. For comparison, NAHerp (which doesn't make locality data public) has had 700 entries in the last 19 days.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Bryan Hamilton » September 9th, 2010, 1:42 pm

chrish wrote:Getting back to the original issue of public sites posting specific data (anyone seen GeoHerper.com?), I think the solution is simple - dilute the data.

If everyone who was upset about this logged into Geo-herper and entered some "data" we could put an end to this. If we put in enough specific "data", the real data would be hard to find. Imagine all the cool herps you could find in the middle of football stadiums, churches, elementary schools, etc.!

Gotta go, I need to find the GPS coordinates for my local zoo herp house. :lol:

I'm not proposing putting fake data into those databases that represent respectable institutions (museums, NAHerp.com), but this GeoHerper thing is a disaster. Of course, at the rate of 10 entries every six months, I don't think they are letting out much information. For comparison, NAHerp (which doesn't make locality data public) has had 700 entries in the last 19 days.
Its a good thing access to entering data into those databases is carefully controlled. There is already enough bad or incorrect data floating around without deliberating adding to the problem to "protect" your favorite spot. I think you're kidding but I don't think this amusing at all.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by VanAR » September 9th, 2010, 2:19 pm

Anymore I think people would be wise to follow "the way of ignorance." Assume you don't know too much, 'cos you can be sure that as soon as you start thinking you do, you're a lot more likely to do damage.
It amuses me that the people who associate harm with disturbance insist that those who espouse the opposite argument "think they know more than they do", despite never sharing conclusive evidence that such harm does in fact occur.

The pendulum swings both ways, and correlation does not equal causality. Observing a correlation between disturbance and changed behavior (ie movement to new locations, increased crypsis, etc.) does not conclusively show that disturbance causes harm (estimated as reduced rates of growth, reproduction, or survival). It is absolutely possible that harm could occur, but no poster has yet given a convincing argument that it does occur. Despite popular opinion, perception is NOT reality.

Van

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 9th, 2010, 4:29 pm

Guys - I know about anecdotal evidence and what it is and isn't worth - i'm published as both a herpetologist and a mammalogist in the peer reviewed literature. Anecdotal evidence is not proof, but it is not to be dismissed until it is disproved, either, if it seems reasonable. Nothing I have suggested here is unreasonable. Science often turns out to poorly reflect reality as well as new insights come in. Moreover, while perception may be flawed, so is even the best field science, due to the complexity of natural systems. Therefore, it could be argued, the results of field science are never conclusive, and what's more, never can be. They are simply more thoroughly arrived at anecdotes with a capital, instead of a small "A." Introduction, Methods, Results, Discussion, Anecdotes. :) Which doesn't diminish the value of field science.


It amuses me that scientists, some of them my peers, create a double-edged sword with their reflex cries of "anecdotal!" when the circumstance suits them, that can, and sometimes does, slice their own balls to the point of emasculation when the shoe is on the other foot. I have rarely seen a case in which they didn't have it coming. It is hard, for instance, to protect wildlife - including snakes - in a system where the forces allied against them can also exercise the same supposed power of anecdotal... errrr... veto.

At any rate, you guys have done a great job in illustrating one of my main points about human nature - "I will use any and all arguments to show that what other people like to do may not be fine, but what I do always is." That is, even the most objective of thinkers have a tough time being objective about themselves.

All i'm saying is this: if 'your' spots are being pounded, make sure you aren't just another one those doing the pounding. I'm not so sure that much separates you - or me - from "them."

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by jdustin » September 9th, 2010, 5:59 pm

The pendulum swings both ways, and correlation does not equal causality.
This one's for you Van.
Image
Honestly though, I've found that my biggest stumbling block personally in regard to herping was drawing conclusions too quickly on evidence that seemed to make a conclusion obvious. Several incorrect assumptions kept me looking in the wrong places at the wrong times for way too long.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Daryl Eby » September 9th, 2010, 6:17 pm

Image
Huh? :? ................. Oh :idea: LOL! :lol:

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by VanAR » September 9th, 2010, 9:42 pm

I never said anything was anecdotal.... I said it didn't exist. Anecdotal evidence of disturbance causing harm would require actually observing some form of harm. Inability to re-locate snakes on trips subsequent to disturbance does not equal harm. It doesn't even equal disuse of the location, per se. It could equal behavioral modification on the part of the snake, it could equal collection by a different herper (probably the worst-case scenario), or it could equal mortality completely unrelated to disturbance.

All that anyone has reported seeing here is that disturbance tends to make snakes more difficult to find. Many have instantly jumped on that as being damningly conclusive evidence that disturbance at a site is directly causing mortality of adults, mortality of offspring, disuse of "optimal" sites that may lead to mortality, etc. Is all that possible? Sure, but nobody has even the slightest observational information to back it up. Given the gross overestimation many herpers have about their own skills (myself included!), I find it far more likely that they just failed to see a snake in subsequent visits.
At any rate, you guys have done a great job in illustrating one of my main points about human nature - "I will use any and all arguments to show that what other people like to do may not be fine, but what I do always is." That is, even the most objective of thinkers have a tough time being objective about themselves.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never advocated against disturbing/manipulating snakes, so its hard for me to say that its ok for me to do it and nobody else. I'm saying that I don't think gentle manipulation of a few snakes causes harm to individual animals or populations of animals. If anything, I'd argue that the point you make applies more to the people who think that manipulating does cause harm, and that simply standing in the woods next to a snake (plus all of the fossil fuels, unsustainable living, and pollution it took for you to get there) does not.
All i'm saying is this: if 'your' spots are being pounded, make sure you aren't just another one those doing the pounding. I'm not so sure that much separates you - or me - from "them."
I agree with that.

Van

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 10th, 2010, 8:54 am

VanAR wrote: I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never advocated against disturbing/manipulating snakes, so its hard for me to say that its ok for me to do it and nobody else. I'm saying that I don't think gentle manipulation of a few snakes causes harm to individual animals or populations of animals. If anything, I'd argue that the point you make applies more to the people who think that manipulating does cause harm, and that simply standing in the woods next to a snake (plus all of the fossil fuels, unsustainable living, and pollution it took for you to get there) does not.
Your last point encroaches on rendering most of the rest of this moot, and i unequivocally agree with the implication. Which is why I think most of all, by all means get out there and herp, while you still can - we're screwed.

It's good to remember how it happened, is all. Do the right thing cos it's the right thing to do, not because it will make any difference or not at this advanced stage.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by muskiemagnet » September 10th, 2010, 9:28 am

gulo wrote:It's good to remember how it happened, is all. Do the right thing cos it's the right thing to do, not because it will make any difference or not at this advanced stage.

you really think we can't make a difference??? advanced stage. yes we are at an advanced stage and it will be much harder to make a difference, but if we do nothing, we are guilty as well. human beings are incredibly intelligent and totally stupid at the same time. we're smart enough to see the outcomes of our locust-like consumption on this planet, but we are too stupid to understand/admit that the more we destroy, the more we are in peril of being destroyed. eventually, we will be the weak link. with this mindset, we will be dooming the human race.

i guess though this may be the best thing as far as the planet is concerned.

unfortunately, greed and selfishness has consumed too many. this is preventing us from being the "stewards" we were commanded/or should be. whichever way you want to look at it.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 10th, 2010, 10:11 am

muskiemagnet wrote:
gulo wrote:It's good to remember how it happened, is all. Do the right thing cos it's the right thing to do, not because it will make any difference or not at this advanced stage.

you really think we can't make a difference??? advanced stage. yes we are at an advanced stage and it will be much harder to make a difference, but if we do nothing, we are guilty as well. human beings are incredibly intelligent and totally stupid at the same time. we're smart enough to see the outcomes of our locust-like consumption on this planet, but we are too stupid to understand/admit that the more we destroy, the more we are in peril of being destroyed. eventually, we will be the weak link. with this mindset, we will be dooming the human race.

i guess though this may be the best thing as far as the planet is concerned.

unfortunately, greed and selfishness has consumed too many. this is preventing us from being the "stewards" we were commanded/or should be. whichever way you want to look at it.
I think at this stage any little difference we can make will be trumped by the larger forces, until we collapse, which we will (and which we are, actually.) For instance, as was just pointed out in another thread: you get in your car, go to your herping spot that only you know about, cos you kept it secret, you any careful to leave a minimal impact by not collecting or doing very little collecting and taking only the years' young perhaps, and may even limit your handling and other disturbance. But driving a car to get there trumps all of this, as it is the industrial way of life that is killing the most snakes at the end of the day, and we're locked into that. The longer an industrial model prevails, dependent on growth as it is which makes things even worse, there's not much we can do in the big scheme of things. If the industrial model doesn't consume everything, that's not by design, it's coincidence.

But i'm not advocating doing nothing. I advocate doing plenty. It is still important to do what's right, if for the simple fact of it's the right thing to do. Who knows, maybe we'll become irrelevant sooner than later.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by muskiemagnet » September 10th, 2010, 10:58 am

i wish i could agree with you regarding the little difference remark. i've strongly advocating educating others. this can make a huge difference. this education has to take place within this group as well as outside. i know i've learned a lot from this forum, and i take what i learn even if it is only for myself. i just hope i can touch others in the same way you all have touched me. (i'll leave this last sentence as is, even though i will catch a sarcastic comment from hubbs.)

i do agree with you regarding industry the way it is. i do not, however, think we can blame industry itself. goes back to my remark about greed and selfishness. when times are good, apathy becomes our enemy. why do you think this country is in such a state of disrepair. politicians out for themselves. unfortunately, people do not stand up to the government. here is where it is our fault. i know it all seems overwhelming and insurmountable, but i do not want to lay down and die. i am happy to see other states doing for themselves what the feds should have been doing all along. this is a step.

it all doesn't have to get done at once. it took a while to get to this point, and it will take time to get out.

*****this remark is NOT intended to get a political debate going. please respect the topic at hand.***********

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by stlouisdude » September 10th, 2010, 4:34 pm

Conservation is a worthy pursuit regardless of what happens 200 years from now. Every year a herp habitat is saved more people got to experience them. There may have been more herps 100 years ago, but there wasn't the information, organization, and technology we have today. I will take a guess that I've seen more herps in 2010 than most people saw in their entire lives 100 years ago. The glass can still be half full is we choose to see it that way. At least a belief and practice of conservation allows for a lifetime filled with herps for people my age.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Steve Bledsoe » September 10th, 2010, 5:27 pm

This thread is a great testament to the value of the NAFHA HERP database.
While museum databases, despite their good intentions, are basically open to the public, the HERP database is a place where your sensitive data is protected, remains under your personal control, and is used for legitimate causes.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gbin » September 10th, 2010, 6:17 pm

gulo wrote:... it could be argued, the results of field science are... simply more thoroughly arrived at anecdotes with a capital, instead of a small "A."
It could be, I suppose, but not by someone who really understands what scientific evidence (as opposed to anecdotal information) is and is not, and honestly portrays it. Sorry, but I always feel compelled to correct misinformation put out about science by anyone, whatever their motive.
gulo wrote:At any rate, you guys have done a great job in illustrating one of my main points about human nature - "I will use any and all arguments to show that what other people like to do may not be fine, but what I do always is." That is, even the most objective of thinkers have a tough time being objective about themselves.
I'm afraid you lose me completely when you make not only totally unfounded but also erroneous assumptions about my behavior. You have no idea what I do or don't do while herping, but are instead only making conclusions about it based on my stance in this discussion.

If there were anything of substance worth talking about here... But there isn't. All we've had so far are assumptions of harm based on anecdotal observations of disturbance. Like I said, not persuasive in the slightest.

Gerry

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by John Mckee » September 11th, 2010, 7:46 am

Umm methinks many of you are mistaken in the belief that the whole world is out to steal yer spots rofl.I dont know the stats or anything but my son and I are the ONLY people I know that really give a damn about herps.Most people I know are just happy to cut a snake in half with a hoe.And apparently,in many places,its perfectly illegal to stop on the highway and pick up a snake(for collection or just to save a DOR).
I'm jealous of more than a few of you as you get to do what you love for a living.But for the rest of us..its seeming the general concenus is that we dont deserve to enjoy nature.
Never found a scarlet king-only recently found my first corn-did find a crowned snake once.But hell man...as much as I love looking at all you guys posts(sweet pics).Lots of you are coming off as somewhat conceited.Just my rambling 2 cents...sorry for the rant...grammar..and possibly some misspelled stuff hehe.Cheers

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by stlouisdude » September 11th, 2010, 8:07 am

John Mckee wrote: I'm jealous of more than a few of you as you get to do what you love for a living.But for the rest of us..its seeming the general concenus is that we dont deserve to enjoy nature.

The funny thing is that it's not the professional people who think we shouldn't be able to see nature! In my area, several researchers and government employees have really made an effort to help me find things. I've never had a negative experience with any park people and the only academic I ever had a somewhat sketchy situation with had recently caught poachers in his study site that involved an endangered specie. Nonetheless, he still gave me permission to continue the search with slight alteration of my original plan. Even in the Smokies, a place with extreme rules, the parks people were very nice and were certainly not out to get me in any way or prevent me from seeing salamanders. Some academics and professional wildlife managers lead hikes to locate herps! I hardly think that's advocating we avoid all herp habitats.

I know from posts here that there are a few researchers/parks personnel who have convinced themselves that poachers are more common than snakes themselves, but I think they are few and far between. Either that or I am one lucky SOB.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by Daryl Eby » September 11th, 2010, 8:16 am

John Mckee wrote:Lots of you are coming off as somewhat conceited.
HOW DARE YOU! Who the heck are you to come on here and call us "somewhat conceited".

I'll have you know that many of us are "extremely conceited". Why, if I was not so incredibly modest, I could write page upon page about just how conceited I am.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by John Mckee » September 11th, 2010, 8:25 am

Daryl Eby wrote:
John Mckee wrote:Lots of you are coming off as somewhat conceited.
HOW DARE YOU! Who the heck are you to come on here and call us "somewhat conceited".

I'll have you know that many of us are "extremely conceited". Why, if I was not so incredibly modest, I could write page upon page about just how conceited I am.
Making me smile mano...I needed that hehe.Will have to remember the extreme thing from here on out lol.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by muskiemagnet » September 11th, 2010, 8:29 am

John Mckee wrote:Umm methinks many of you are mistaken in the belief that the whole world is out to steal yer spots rofl.I dont know the stats or anything but my son and I are the ONLY people I know that really give a damn about herps.Most people I know are just happy to cut a snake in half with a hoe.And apparently,in many places,its perfectly illegal to stop on the highway and pick up a snake(for collection or just to save a DOR).
I'm jealous of more than a few of you as you get to do what you love for a living.But for the rest of us..its seeming the general concenus is that we dont deserve to enjoy nature.
Never found a scarlet king-only recently found my first corn-did find a crowned snake once.But hell man...as much as I love looking at all you guys posts(sweet pics).Lots of you are coming off as somewhat conceited.Just my rambling 2 cents...sorry for the rant...grammar..and possibly some misspelled stuff hehe.Cheers

grounded again. i realized that i really am not arguing. long-winded responses get me off track.

john, thanks for your two cents.

i want to share "my" spots. i want others to gain a love for herps like mine. hopefully all who share these spots respects them.

ben

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 11th, 2010, 8:35 am

gbin - I may be jumping to conclusions, yes. My apologies if so, to all of you i may have offended. If i'm not speaking about any of you, then i am (perhaps wrongly) jumping to the conclusion, for instance, that you've been around enough to recognize who and what it is am speaking about. Doing things like herping. Or doing science, as I certainly hope you have been doing, gbin, given your air of certitude.

As for the dismissal of anecdotal evidence, which I think is frankly just stupid, (there are many more ways of knowing under the sun than scientific method,) here's a quote for you on the subject by a guy who knows science much better than I apparently do:

"Any observant local knows more about his surroundings than any visiting scientist. No exceptions."
-Dr. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, Biologist; Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society;
Scholar of Clare College, Cambridge University; Frank Knox Fellow, Harvard University;
Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology, Cambridge University...

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by stlouisdude » September 11th, 2010, 8:42 am

Gulo, just wait until KW returns. He will set you straight that the only way of ever knowing anything is a study conducted by himself or one that confirms his position. Everything else is irrelevant.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by John Mckee » September 11th, 2010, 9:37 am

muskiemagnet wrote:
John Mckee wrote:Umm methinks many of you are mistaken in the belief that the whole world is out to steal yer spots rofl.I dont know the stats or anything but my son and I are the ONLY people I know that really give a damn about herps.Most people I know are just happy to cut a snake in half with a hoe.And apparently,in many places,its perfectly illegal to stop on the highway and pick up a snake(for collection or just to save a DOR).
I'm jealous of more than a few of you as you get to do what you love for a living.But for the rest of us..its seeming the general concenus is that we dont deserve to enjoy nature.
Never found a scarlet king-only recently found my first corn-did find a crowned snake once.But hell man...as much as I love looking at all you guys posts(sweet pics).Lots of you are coming off as somewhat conceited.Just my rambling 2 cents...sorry for the rant...grammar..and possibly some misspelled stuff hehe.Cheers

grounded again. i realized that i really am not arguing. long-winded responses get me off track.

john, thanks for your two cents.

i want to share "my" spots. i want others to gain a love for herps like mine. hopefully all who share these spots respects them.

ben
Tis key...and duelly noted.I salute you sir

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gulo » September 11th, 2010, 11:04 am

stlouisdude wrote:Gulo, just wait until KW returns. He will set you straight that the only way of ever knowing anything is a study conducted by himself or one that confirms his position. Everything else is irrelevant.
Fantastic. I can't wait. :crazyeyes:

You know, it's a wonder how humans - the native Americans, for example - ever survived as they did for millenia with no real knowledge. I guess the scientists came along just in the nick of time, eh!

God bless the Scientists. And their Religion.

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gbin » September 11th, 2010, 11:34 am

gulo wrote:gbin - I may be jumping to conclusions...
May be? :roll:
gulo wrote:As for the dismissal of anecdotal evidence, which I think is frankly just stupid...
Who dismissed it? I didn't, and I don't recall anyone else doing so, either. Anecdotal information can be incredibly valuable. What I and others have been dismissive of is all the assumptions that are being made - as outright declarations, no less - based solely on such information. And then all the assumptions that are being made based on those assumptions, etc. Frankly, gulo, you've been jumping to an awful lot of places.
gulo wrote:God bless the Scientists. And their Religion.
And that just further demonstrates your poor grasp of what science is and is not. That's ok, we're none of us expert on everything, all of us ignorant of many things, and there's certainly no obligation on the part of anyone here to understand science (though you'd doubtless find it useful in nudging your perceptions toward reality). But you can probably count on me and others here calling you on it when you misrepresent science. If that bothers you, tough.

Pretty funny, Daryl - and all too accurate! :lol:

Gerry

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Re: So your spots are getting pounded ...

Post by gbin » September 11th, 2010, 6:02 pm

John Vanek wrote:And for every "observant local" who knows where to find a black racer, there are 50 locals who want to kill the "black snake" because one time a "black snake" bit their cousin's bluetick coonhound, who later died of envenomation.
And in certain parts of my own beloved MN, they'll later assure the press that what they killed was a black mamba. (Sigh...) :(

Gerry

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