Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

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FunkyRes
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Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by FunkyRes » November 15th, 2013, 3:09 am

Many speculate the current warming trend may spell trouble for the Polar Bear, and the data I've looked at, while not journal data and I am not a biologist, does indeed suggest that is the case.

Polar bears largely feed upon seals and depend upon ocean ice for hunting, ice fields that are melting.

Polar Bears and Brown Bears are closely related. In fact, Polar Bears may actually be descendants of Brown Bears that became isolated. Brown Bears are the species that Grizzly bears belong to.

Polar Bears and Brown Bears have a closer common ancestor with the extinct Cave Bear than with the Black Bear. The Yeti may be another bear in that cave/brown/polar bear lineage.

It appears (via Internet) that Polar Bears split from Brown Bears several million years ago, though the teeth they currently have is actually a rather modern adaptation, seems like within the last 10-20 thousand years. Older polar bear fossils have teeth closer to Brown Bears.

The recent tooth adaptation I *think* is important. I say I *think* because I have yet to find speculation from scientists, but I speculate that the tooth adaptation is what has allowed them to largely become specialist predators feeding primarily on seals, and that may be what causes their doom as a species as the ice melts.

Clearly Polar Bears have survived many changes in global climate before. That does not mean they will survive this change, there may have been other species they fed upon that are no longer here, etc. and the evolution of their teeth may make it more difficult for them to evolve to eat a different type of prey as the ocean ice melts.

But while trying to figure out what historic Polar Bears did during warming periods, I came across this very interesting article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 151028.htm

It seems that historically, Polar Bears had much more genetic diversity than they currently have. That extra diversity may have helped them survive previous warming periods as there was more in their gene pool for natural selection to work with.

But what is really interesting is that the article suggests they hybridized with Brown Bears during those previous warming periods. That may also have actually helped them.

I know with wolves, wolves do occasionally hybridize with coyotes, in fact the Red Wolf has a lot of coyote genes in it. However such inter-species hybridization (in wolf/coyote) seems most likely to occur when the wolf populations are small, and there is a shortage of suitable wolf mates.

One of the questions (regarding red wolves) that biologists have is if their current high level of Coyote genes is the result of white man hunting them to the brink of extinction or if they had a high amount of coyote genes before white man hunted them to brink of extinction.

Speculating, what may happen with Polar Bears is that as the climate warms, the populations see reduction in numbers resulting in hybridizing with Brown Bears that then brings characteristics into the Polar Bear population allowing them to adapt and survive the climate change. Then when things freeze up again, natural selection removes some of the Brown Bear genetics that are no longer beneficial.

That's highly speculative on my part, but it would be an interesting way in which a species evolved for harsh cold climate is able to survive during warming periods.

Anyway, I thought that article on how the Polar Bear may have survived past warming periods was rather neat.

The smaller current genetic diversity and/or the evolution of their current teeth may make it more difficult for them to survive the current warming period, but if the hybridize with Brown Bears maybe their chances are better.

How fascinating that *maybe* a species uses hybridization with another distinct species during less than optimal conditions to continue to survive as a distinct species.

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The speculation that though that hybridization between Polar Bears and Brown Bears was somewhat common during past warming periods though brings up an interesting question regarding the Yeti.

As some of you know, a recent study alleged to find ancient Polar Bear DNA in two genetic samples from alleged Yeti. I confess I have my doubts, part of me wonders if the samples were fraudulent to begin with or if the scientist is playing a hoax on us. But let's assume he isn't.

Past hybridization between Polar Bears and Brown Bears durig a warming period could have resulted in a population that found its way to the Himalayas where it persists as the Yeti.

But I have an even wackier thought. Yes it is wacky, but bare with me, no pun intended.

The Cave Bear went extinct about 30K years ago, well after Polar Bears had split from Brown Bears. We know that Cave Bears were in the same grouping as Brown Bears, the two seem to share a recent common ancestor.

What if the Yeti is a hybrid between Cave Bears and Polar Bears? The two genetic samples have ancient Polar Bear DNA from when Cave Bears were still around, but I did not see it confirmed that they have any Brown Bear genetics. Yet Polar X Brown is what a lot of people assume it is, if the samples are not fraud.

Unlike Brown Bears, it appears that Cave Bears actually spent a great deal of time in caves, not just for hibernation. If the Yeti is a hybrid between ancient Polar Bear and Cave Bear, maybe it kept that part of the Cave Bear natural history and is the reason sightings are uncommon.

The geography of the Himalayas appears to be wrong for Cave Bears, they were mostly Europe. However the geography is also wrong for Polar Bears. I believe there is quite a bit of limestone in the Himalayas, and limestone caves are where Cave Bear bones are often found.

Maybe in the search for the Yeti, attention should paid to caves.

Am I just off my meds?

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 16th, 2013, 5:51 pm

See if you can find a pic of a bear with extremis mange. Any bear - black, brown, grizzly. But with alot of mange.

Then picture the bear Up on his hinds and there you go. Big Foot explained.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 16th, 2013, 6:55 pm

Your *maybe* theory about hybridization is a compelling one i have not heard before.

And the rest of your post too, has rings of exciting yet rational ponder.



so funkyres, a couple years ago i accidently came across a pic of a juvenile black bear with mange, right? So i thought to myself "man if that guy were full grown and standing upright at twilight - it would so easily look hominid ie; BIGFOOT. So i went to find some bears with mange just now and it comes up : Bear With Mange - Bigfoot.

Hey whats with the internet stealin my thoughts lol.

Cave Bears are fascinating - so is Gigantopithicus - both as a kid my favorites in my books about prehistoric mammals.

I actually used to pray that Yeti was real before i went to sleep at night, like till i was 14.


Thank you for your thoughts and for giving me some.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Fieldnotes » November 20th, 2013, 7:24 am

There is more truth to Yeti being alive than there is about Global warming being true. :crazyeyes:

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Fundad » November 20th, 2013, 8:39 am

Then picture the bear Up on his hinds and there you go. Big Foot explained.
There hundreds of "respected" people, Including "hunters" "woodsman" "policemen" etc that claim to have seen a bigfoot.. Your above comment is insult to them all, IMO.

Fundad

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 20th, 2013, 10:09 am

Fundad wrote:
Then picture the bear Up on his hinds and there you go. Big Foot explained.
There hundreds of "respected" people, Including "hunters" "woodsman" "policemen" etc that claim to have seen a bigfoot.. Your above comment is insult to them all, IMO.

Fundad

How is pointing out that a bear with mange has a hominid appearance that could very possibly be mistaken for bigfoot, "Insulting"?

Theyre Big Boys arent they?

I think it sets a very bad precidence generally to think its "Insulting" to question and explore something, on the basis of Who Says It.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by FunkyRes » November 20th, 2013, 10:30 am

Fieldnotes wrote:There is more truth to Yeti being alive than there is about Global warming being true. :crazyeyes:
Well we are in a warming period from the last ice age. Whether it is accelerated or nor, and the cause if it is accelerated, are questions that are a different debate.

But yes, if those two DNA samples that match up with ancient polar bear DNA are legite, then it is good evidence something currently undescribed is present in those mountains.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Fundad » November 20th, 2013, 11:16 am

How is pointing out that a bear with mange has a hominid appearance that could very possibly be mistaken for bigfoot, "Insulting"?

Theyre Big Boys arent they?

I think it sets a very bad precidence generally to think its "Insulting" to question and explore something, on the basis of Who Says It.
Sorry, I thought you said a standing bear explains the "Bigfoot Sightings".
Then picture the bear Up on his hinds and there you go. Big Foot explained.

:lol: :?

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 20th, 2013, 11:21 am

Maybe some.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Fundad » November 20th, 2013, 11:25 am

Some of the sightings? If so I agree.

That said most people can tell the difference between and standing bear and a "bigfoot"...

The mystery around so many sightings is much more Interesting and deeper than that.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 22nd, 2013, 4:50 am

Do you mean the mystery of so many sightings in the past - before pretty much everyone, policemen, woodsman, hunters, as well as their grandmas and kids all carry around a cell phone now capable of snapping a clear pic? :?

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) » November 22nd, 2013, 5:32 am

Kelly Mc wrote:Do you mean the mystery of so many sightings in the past - before pretty much everyone, policemen, woodsman, hunters, as well as their grandmas and kids all carry around a cell phone now capable of snapping a clear pic? :?
Nice one.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by BillMcGighan » November 22nd, 2013, 6:38 am


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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by justinm » November 22nd, 2013, 9:53 am

I really, really want to believe in Bigfoot but I do agree that in this digital age we should have more evidence by now. So you can call it an insult if you like, but I think that when people get scared imaginations can take over. Like when people tell you the size of a spider or that a bat was attacking them, or that they saw a 9' rattlesnake.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 22nd, 2013, 11:15 am

Me too. I would feel equal parts joy and worry. Worry for how such a being would be treated by us.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 22nd, 2013, 7:58 pm

*moved

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 22nd, 2013, 9:02 pm

A little while ago i wrote a post and accidentally posted it here, when it was meant for FunkyRes's other thread about the Center for Biodiversity. So i edited it out and was going to move it but on second thought - said na, who wants to read my philosophy etc on this i will pass.

A much more interesting idea i thought would be to pose an interesting hypothetical, for fun - on this subject. Just for a creative walk into the wilds of ethos.

The question is : How would you think a bigfoot/yeti should be treated, researched and managed if a specimen/s turned up?

Or the Undefined Ursus that was the actual animal of contention in FunkyRes's original post?

This isnt about If Its Real - for fun lets just say it is.

Especially in the case of Primate Bigfoot.

What would happen? What should or shouldnt happen?

In our human history of genocide, prejudice, and the treatment and use of other anthropoids, would the way we react, the decisions we make regarding this being, offer us as Humans the opportunity to create one of our better moments?

Or would something else be more likely to happen?

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by FunkyRes » November 22nd, 2013, 10:22 pm

My personal opinion is that most bigfoot type sightings that are not hoax or imagination are bears. The thought of a new bear species in Himalayas is exciting.

But if there is another homonid out there, it clearly wants to be left alone. Preserve habitat for it if possible but otherwise let it live.

For a homonid. I don't think I want a museum specimen to be collected. I'd rather camera traps and hairs be used for scientific purposes. If it is a homonid, even collecting a deceased specimen may infringe upon religious or cultural beliefs and their right to deal with their dead in their way.

At least in places like North America, that we haven't come across a carcass indicates they, if they exist, do something with their deceased.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Kelly Mc » November 22nd, 2013, 11:06 pm

I agree with all of the above. Interesting to think about. Perhaps such hypoth can keep us limber in case of other situations in principalic likeness

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Daryl Eby » November 23rd, 2013, 9:29 am

I read an interesting book about this sort of thing. Neanderthal by John Darnton. It's a fictional account of the discovery of a group of Neanderthals in northern Asia. In the story, they were the cause of the various Yeti sightings. They were highly intelligent and made a deliberate decision tens of thousands of years ago to avoid and hide from homo sapiens because homo sapiens were murderous and could not be trusted.

It's an interesting read for a cold winter day.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by gbin » November 23rd, 2013, 2:23 pm

The question of how to treat another hominid species might actually confront us someday. There's enough decent material around that the Neanderthal genome was sequenced a few years ago, and earlier this year folks brought up the question of cloning the species back into existence. If the technology's not yet there then it soon will be. I don't have my own thoughts sorted out on whether this should be done or how the species should be handled if it is. I can't imagine how we could possibly do right by Neanderthals in this modern age even if we tried our best (and I feel sure we wouldn't try our best), but I've tremendous curiosity about them. It would be a real boon to science, no doubt, and might do humanity a lot of good in other ways, too.

I think it's very doubtful that there's another bear species out there waiting to be discovered, even in the most remote reaches of the Himalayas. And I consider reports of bigfeet/sasquatches/yetis wandering the earth's remaining wild lands about as credible as those of little green men visiting us from outer space, which is to say NOT. Sorry to be a wet blanket at anyone's party. But hey, there's an incredibly rich and interesting diversity of life forms that really do still exist on this planet, and I feel certain that we'll be restoring some extinct species (even if not Neanderthals) in the relatively near future, to boot. That should be more than enough to keep us happy, I think.

Gerry

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by jonathan » November 24th, 2013, 7:43 am

I also agree that the lack of evidence (not just lack of photos in this camera-happy age, but complete lack of any relevant carcasses/bones/fossils/biological material/etc) is a quite good argument against their existence.

Lots of very respectable people, including myself, do see things sometimes that turn out not to be what they absolutely certainly saw. There have been very good, sane, intelligent, honest people who have contracted each other on the witness stands of our judicial system over and over again. With 350,000,000 people in this country, there will always be a few who get accidentally confused.

As far as creating a new species, not only is the technology extremely difficult, but you would immediately raise the problem of inbreeding.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by jared68nova » December 3rd, 2013, 7:29 pm

I would love to think that there could be some long lost undiscovered species of Ape man running around out there...and I could almost, ALMOST, picture it happening in some of the other countries like Asia and the massive expanses of untouched wilderness in the Soviet. But in the U.S.... I don't think it's a possibility. We are too populated, there would have been something found a whole lot more substantial than a few "footprints". Where are their carcasses? Hair samples? Poop?...nothing solid. Think about when the gold rush hit California, there were very low human population densities prior to that. We trapped, hunted, mined, logged and fished all over the state, sometimes to the point of almost putting certain species into extinction, if not extinction. Don't you think someone through all those years would have shot and killed one? Everyone carried weapons back then, we damn near shot everything in sight. When did big foot sightings start to occur in CA?...the late 60's? C'mon now.... Yeti's, Big Foot whatever you wanna call em, straight up BS Imho.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by dthor68 » February 12th, 2014, 7:59 am

Are you guys serious? I thought the whole Bigfoot thing was just for laughs and a lot of you are talking about wanting to believe in it? I am seriously confused. Now you have all got me thinking that they are seriously looking for Bigfoot on those idiotic TV shows. If they are really looking for a Bigfoot than they have serious issues, too much money and way too much spare time. Man is everywhere and everything on land that weighs more than a 1/4 pound has been seen and named. There may be some creatures in the sea that have yet to be named, even that is highly doubtful.

On the serious side, Polar Bears will eat fish and carrion. Part of me thinks that they could adapt.

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) » February 12th, 2014, 4:59 pm

Hey, at least it's a wholesome hobby that keeps them off the streets. I'd rather my kids go on outings with the Borneo Bigfoot Seekers Club than hang around in dark alleys. smoking Luckies and peddling dimebags. :-)

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Re: Polar Bears, Global Warming, and oddly - Yeti

Post by TravisK » February 13th, 2014, 8:54 am

dthor68 wrote:There may be some creatures in the sea that have yet to be named, even that is highly doubtful.

More like highly probable.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/201 ... iscovered-
http://ocean.si.edu/blog/one-fish-two-f ... ed-species

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