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 Post subject: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 18th, 2015, 6:21 pm 

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 6:19 pm
Posts: 55
This guy claims to not be an animal rights activist but the content sure left me with that impression. I wonder how people here feel about the organization, I enjoy hunting, fishing, and gigging... not to mention those frogs can make pretty good snake food :)

=======================

The Tennessee Farm Bureau Federation and DeKalb County School District are organizing a "Gigging For Grads" event where student will impale (gig) up to 15 live frogs as part of a school fundraiser. We need you to speak up both to save frogs from unnecessary death and also to prevent students from being taught that wildlife has no value.

Please email and/or call these officials RIGHT NOW to voice your concern and urge them to call off the event:

Lacy Upchurch, President of Tennessee Farm Bureau Federation
615-597-7751
[email protected]

Patrick Cripps, Principal of DeKalb County High School
615-597-4094
[email protected]

Danielle Collins, Interim Director of Schools, DeKalb County School District
615-215-2116
[email protected]

Thank you!

#######################################################
Here's the email I sent (I also called and left messages)

Dear Mr. Upchurch, Mr. Cripps and Ms. Collins,

Many of my organization's supporters are extremely concerned about the upcoming Gigging For Grads event, as it harms innocent amphibians and teaches kids that wildlife has no value. The Tennessee Farm Bureau Federation and DeKalb County School District should also be concerned about the potential negative consequences from a public relations standpoint, as this event or future ones will undoubtedly begin receiving widespread national and international news coverage. Please place an immediate postponement on the upcoming event and let me know when the four of us can hold a conference call.

Please also be clear that SAVE THE FROGS! is not an animal rights group; we are an international network of scientists, teachers, students and wildlife enthusiasts dedicated to environmental education and to protecting amphibians, which are the world's most rapidly disappearing group of animals.

Thank you for your understanding, and for postponing or canceling the upcoming event.
Kerry Kriger, Ph.D.

##########################################################
Thank you for taking action on behalf of amphibians and our fragile environment
Dr. Kerry Kriger
SAVE THE FROGS!
Founder, Executive Director, Ecologist
http://www.savethefrogs.com
http://www.savethefrogs.com/kerry-kriger
[email protected]
415-878-6525 (voicemail)

##########################################################
ABOUT SAVE THE FROGS!

SAVE THE FROGS! is the world's leading amphibian conservation organization. We work in California, across the USA, and around the world to prevent the extinction of amphibians, and to create a better planet for humans and wildlife. Frogs are the most threatened group of animals on the planet: nearly 2,000 of the world's amphibian species are threatened with extinction and up to 200 species have entirely disappeared in recent decades. Your financial contributions to SAVE THE FROGS! are tax-deductible and enable us to spread amphibian awareness, campaign for threatened amphibians and train the next generation of amphibian conservationists. Please donate, become a member, help us fundraise, and forward this email to your friends and colleagues to help spread the word. Thank you!
You can write to us at SAVE THE FROGS!, PO Box 78758, Los Angeles, CA 90016 USA or call us at 415-878-6525. If you prefer not to receive future emails about our efforts to protect the world's most endangered animals, you can unsubscribe at:
http://savethefrogs.com/unsubscribe


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 18th, 2015, 8:23 pm 

Joined: July 2nd, 2010, 5:48 pm
Posts: 682
Location: AZ.
Dear Love _the_ smellof_ musk,

How can one express an informed opinion without hearing both sides of the issue? I can't help but wonder if there might be a better fund raiser. I am personally not a fan of wildlife used for mass entertainment, such as lizard and turtle races, rattlesnake round ups, competitive predator shooting, shark derbies, etc. Wildlife is and should be valued simply because it has evolved/exists and is a wondrous thing. I think the message gets confused when it becomes a competition or game that exploits the wildlife. I will make a brief effort to determine what gigging frogs has to do with fund raising for Graduates...

I can assure you I am not an animals rights activist, and I have taken hundreds and hundreds of frogs here in the west where we regard bull frogs as an invasive pest with a deleterious impact on native wildlife. Arguing ethics often fails to achieve agreement, as ones back ground and experiences influence our thoughts and ideas.

Gigging frogs is by its very nature a brutal act, and instant kill sites on a target frog are few and hard to hit. Frogs die hard, they are very tough and gigs are not very precise devices, as compared to a well placed rifle shot on a mammal for comparison. I can see how it would upset some folks.
How did you hear about this? I am surprised it gets national attention...given the political climate.

Vic


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 18th, 2015, 8:38 pm 
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Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4034
Location: San Francisco, California
luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:
This guy claims to not be an animal rights activist but the content sure left me with that impression. I wonder how people here feel about the organization, I enjoy hunting, fishing, and gigging... not to mention those frogs can make pretty good snake food :)

=======================

The Tennessee Farm Bureau Federation and DeKalb County School District are organizing a "Gigging For Grads" event where student will impale (gig) up to 15 live frogs as part of a school fundraiser. We need you to speak up both to save frogs from unnecessary death and also to prevent students from being taught that wildlife has no value.

Please email and/or call these officials RIGHT NOW to voice your concern and urge them to call off the event:

Lacy Upchurch, President of Tennessee Farm Bureau Federation
615-597-7751
[email protected]

Patrick Cripps, Principal of DeKalb County High School
615-597-4094
[email protected]

Danielle Collins, Interim Director of Schools, DeKalb County School District
615-215-2116
[email protected]

Thank you!

#######################################################
Here's the email I sent (I also called and left messages)

Dear Mr. Upchurch, Mr. Cripps and Ms. Collins,

Many of my organization's supporters are extremely concerned about the upcoming Gigging For Grads event, as it harms innocent amphibians and teaches kids that wildlife has no value. The Tennessee Farm Bureau Federation and DeKalb County School District should also be concerned about the potential negative consequences from a public relations standpoint, as this event or future ones will undoubtedly begin receiving widespread national and international news coverage. Please place an immediate postponement on the upcoming event and let me know when the four of us can hold a conference call.

Please also be clear that SAVE THE FROGS! is not an animal rights group; we are an international network of scientists, teachers, students and wildlife enthusiasts dedicated to environmental education and to protecting amphibians, which are the world's most rapidly disappearing group of animals.

Thank you for your understanding, and for postponing or canceling the upcoming event.
Kerry Kriger, Ph.D.

##########################################################
Thank you for taking action on behalf of amphibians and our fragile environment
Dr. Kerry Kriger
SAVE THE FROGS!
Founder, Executive Director, Ecologist
http://www.savethefrogs.com
http://www.savethefrogs.com/kerry-kriger
[email protected]
415-878-6525 (voicemail)

##########################################################
ABOUT SAVE THE FROGS!

SAVE THE FROGS! is the world's leading amphibian conservation organization. We work in California, across the USA, and around the world to prevent the extinction of amphibians, and to create a better planet for humans and wildlife. Frogs are the most threatened group of animals on the planet: nearly 2,000 of the world's amphibian species are threatened with extinction and up to 200 species have entirely disappeared in recent decades. Your financial contributions to SAVE THE FROGS! are tax-deductible and enable us to spread amphibian awareness, campaign for threatened amphibians and train the next generation of amphibian conservationists. Please donate, become a member, help us fundraise, and forward this email to your friends and colleagues to help spread the word. Thank you!
You can write to us at SAVE THE FROGS!, PO Box 78758, Los Angeles, CA 90016 USA or call us at 415-878-6525. If you prefer not to receive future emails about our efforts to protect the world's most endangered animals, you can unsubscribe at:
http://savethefrogs.com/unsubscribe



Whats your problem man?

Yeah pithing the base of the brain is an acceptable euthanasia, but I don't really have a comment about the event except that one would think a better idea for an event than gigging frogs.

your Animal Rights Activist obsession is tired man. Played OUT.

By the way your username is stupid too. And in a way telling to how base and heavy handed your ways are.

Why don't you just change it to Luv_to_ScaretheCrap_outof_Snakes.


I don't mind the smell of snake musk either but when Im transferring or working on a nervous snake and the snake doesn't musk I know Im on my game.

Sorry but you just seem to suck in so many ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 19th, 2015, 7:48 am 
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Joined: September 14th, 2012, 8:43 am
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Location: Boston area, MA
Let me get this straight...you are on a field herping forum...talking about how you like to kill frogs.

Um, okay.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 19th, 2015, 2:03 pm 
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Location: Greater Houston TX Area
There are people on here who collect herps as feeders for other herps. As long as it's at a sustainable rate (a topic unto itself), I don't have too much of a problem with that. Same with hunting them for personal food. I've only had frog legs a couple of times and don't care too much for it myself.

It DOES seem weird (poor taste?) to feature a frog-gigging...contest? as a fundraiser, though. It seems such an event would focus less on sportsmanship and/or sustenance, and more on "let's get as many as we can, even if we don't intend to eat them."

Then again, I've seen similar events (hunting-as-fundraiser) with game birds (dove). However, the fundraising aspect was the purchase of tickets to hunt on a private ranch, rather than seeing how many birds could be shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 19th, 2015, 6:13 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:38 pm
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chris_mcmartin wrote:
There are people on here who collect herps as feeders for other herps. As long as it's at a sustainable rate (a topic unto itself), I don't have too much of a problem with that. Same with hunting them for personal food. I've only had frog legs a couple of times and don't care too much for it myself.

It DOES seem weird (poor taste?) to feature a frog-gigging...contest? as a fundraiser, though. It seems such an event would focus less on sportsmanship and/or sustenance, and more on "let's get as many as we can, even if we don't intend to eat them."

I was typing my own response when I notice that Chris said it better than I was attempting to do myself. Pretty much my exact sentiment right there!

It's lucky for everyone that there are much more eloquent forum members than myself on here. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 2:31 am 

Joined: September 8th, 2011, 5:12 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Oxford, MS
Having had some experience "chatting" with Kerry, I can tell you that he and STF are animal rights activists that use emotion over logic (STF is on a crusade to end dissections, for example, which are invaluable for understanding vertebrate anatomy). I am all for saving amphibians, but STF, IMO, is just a front for a failed PhD to con money out of people. They do a lot of fundraising with very little to show for it (and Kriger takes a pretty big chunk). If they had their way, no one could keep amphibians and you'd only be able to look at them (no touching).

To the topic at hand, I'd agree with it being in poor taste to have a killing contest. I am fine with hunting provided that it is done sustainably, humanely, and the animal is used (i.e., no trophy hunting), but this does seem to be on par with rattlesnake roundups. I feel like there are better ways to fundraise (if for no other reason than I would think this would be controversial to people in general, which could have a negative effect on the event).


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 4:39 am 
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"shark derbies"???


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 7:13 am 
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MonarchzMan wrote:
Having had some experience "chatting" with Kerry, I can tell you that he and STF are animal rights activists that use emotion over logic (STF is on a crusade to end dissections, for example, which are invaluable for understanding vertebrate anatomy). I am all for saving amphibians, but STF, IMO, is just a front for a failed PhD to con money out of people. They do a lot of fundraising with very little to show for it (and Kriger takes a pretty big chunk). If they had their way, no one could keep amphibians and you'd only be able to look at them (no touching).

To the topic at hand, I'd agree with it being in poor taste to have a killing contest. I am fine with hunting provided that it is done sustainably, humanely, and the animal is used (i.e., no trophy hunting), but this does seem to be on par with rattlesnake roundups. I feel like there are better ways to fundraise (if for no other reason than I would think this would be controversial to people in general, which could have a negative effect on the event).



You've chatted, huh? So you have analyzed the whole organization as activists out to "con money out of people"

I know four individuals active in STFs. Yes, only Four. One is a herpetologist whom Im on an acquaintance level. The other a dendro hobbyest whom has bred some of the rarest forms. The other two are in the medical field, Chris who is a Physician and his wife who is in oncologic research who I call Macbeth because she has a complicated indian name. We are friends and I see them weekly. Every time off that they have is spent on traveling to take part in conservation efforts and they are extremely intelligent, logical people. As well as kind. You see, kindness and intelligence go together in the truly wise.

They are not "activists" whatever defines that terrifying catchword - uh, they eat meat for dinner if that's a clue. But who knows You and luv_thesmellof_a_strugglingsnakewhile_implayingwithit_like_amoron may have your own definition.

And I'm all for ending collection of wild amphibians for the pet trade.

If you saw the nightmarish results of frogs as playthings (by ADULTS as well) perhaps it would crack your rigid belief system.

But then again, perhaps not huh.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 7:20 am 
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One of the best (and arguably worst) ways to appreciate the value of nature is to take the life of an animal. Think of the trauma, and teachable moment that would occur should a child witness the slow death of a frog from gigging?

But, there are a lot of children, and that would mean a lot of horrible frog deaths. I'm not a fan of that. But hunting is one way to teach people about the natural world. I think it can show with great clarity the impact humans have on the world, perhaps even more so than a few pictures in a textbook.

Hunting without killing may be the best alternative. Another name for this is wildlife photography :D


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 7:29 am 
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captainjack0000 wrote:
One of the best (and arguably worst) ways to appreciate the value of nature is to take the life of an animal. Think of the trauma, and teachable moment that would occur should a child witness the slow death of a frog from gigging?


No Captainjack.. Think it through. That theory is wraught with sociological holes.

When rewards and organized kudus by adults are involved.

Are they planning to include Teachable Moments in illustrating the agony of the frogs? "Look kids - its still writhing...and remember kids, frogs are fully innervated chordates just like we learned in class!"


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 11:03 am 

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 6:19 pm
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IMO if you're against the sustainable use of resources, whether for food, medicine, teaching, or pets, then you're an animal rights activist. If you're against unsustainable use of resources for food, medicine, teaching, or pets, then you're a conservationist.

I enjoy hunting, fishing, and keeping animals that are sometimes wild caught and sometimes need wild collected food to sustain them. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this but the animal rights activists are out there day and night trying to mislead people into believing this is a conservation issue, so I do not believe people like myself should remain silent and just hope their propaganda does not work. This guy is an die hard animal rights activist not a conservationist and must be called out on it as such.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 11:40 am 
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Attitudes are evolving beyond human utilitarian selfishness.

They are being qualified rapidly by a compound approach to our interactions with other life forms.

Expanding knowledge about other life is further qualifying a more conscious world view.

Its happening and you can't stop it.


You can remain as obtuse and archaic as you like however .


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 2:18 pm 
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The word Conservation is also used by non activists to make entrepreneur ventures involving everything from big cat farms to snake [breeding facilities] seem like something that they aren't.

Its a word that is used extremely loosely to promote a note of nobility to other goals.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 3:25 pm 

Joined: July 2nd, 2010, 5:48 pm
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Location: AZ.
Hans Breuer (twoton) wrote:
"shark derbies"???


Dear Hans,

I am now almost 60, and I have lived long enough to see some changes in public attitude. Shark Derbies for example...

There was a time when sharks and rays were thought to be a problem, and a angling contest was held to reduce their numbers, at least that was the justification for a fun day of angling and fees paid, a contest. The contest was held with the approval of the Fish & Game department, and a "good time was had by all". Except of course for the sharks and rays killed, photographed and usually dumped. The lucky anglers who caught the largest rays, sharks, and total pounds were rewarded with a $ jack pot prize. At the time the anglers would appear in the newspaper, hero for a day, but now it would be regarded as vulgar slaughter to no purpose.

Since that time, greater concern by the public for elasmobranchs and fishery resources has developed, and this shark derby I am thinking of has been eliminated. There are many examples of this attitude, bounties were paid on eagles in Alaska, the justification that large numbers of eagles had a deleterious impact on runs of anadromous fish, commercially important salmon and steelhead. Wolves, lions, it goes on and on.

Even to this day there are bounties paid on some species, on pike minnows in the Columbia River system for example.

Bull Frogs had a limit (completely arbitrary with no data to support it?) on them when I was a kid in California. Ten as I recall, but now NO lIMIT and I sometimes have resource managers begging me to come reduce them. A huge shift in attitude by the resource managers and agencies, Bull Frogs are regarded as an introduced invasive pest, implicated in reducing/eliminating native species.

There are competitive tournaments for bass and other game fish, and carp. Some are OK and provide sport and funding without tangible harm to the resource, others not so much.

Anytime we discuss killing something and trying to justify it, we open a can of worms...and often emotional responses are pitted against data supported responses, or no data to support killing, and often no agreement will be reached, it is indeed controversial.

To be fair to the folks down in Tennessee, they are limited to the 20 largest frogs per gigger, and the total aggregate weight determines the winner as I understand it from reading internet articles. A curious and amusing juxtaposition of stereotypes, the best frog gigger gets the college scholarship. A lot of good ol' boys that I know to be superior frog giggers just never made time for college or had the interest...

Since I can not see why the best frog "gigger" is deemed worthy of the scholarship, If I were on the governing board I would be tempted to switch the contest to something that shows a college aptitude (writing contest?) or to something less controversial, such as carp killing or rat trapping or...gator calling, sheep shearing or nutria skinning?

Folks that are upset about the limited harvest of bull frogs in this small contest are bound to be really upset if they are better informed about other wildlife exploitations, such as the reptile skin trade, turtles for human consumption, wildlife in traditional pharmacy, jewelry and curios, etc.

I vaguely recall being queried to donate to that Save the Frogs organization, but the literature I saw was so vague and I get so many others I did not seriously consider it.

Vic



Vic


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 3:59 pm 
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The June issue of Field & Stream has an article on frog gigging as a father-and-son experience. Pages 30-31. I looked for an online version without success.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 4:10 pm 
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Save the Frogs is an earnest organization with some good people involved. From what I've been privy to.

There are no subversive agendas to swindle big bucks out of all those bunches and bunches of people out there who are concerned about amphibians :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 4:48 pm 
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Attitudes don't really grow along polarized lines like the grey plastic army men versus the green plastic army men. They are influenced by many factors.

The need to identify and name an enemy is strong.

But there are 3 sides to every story and one of them is outside of the two opposing groups and they comprise the most telling version of any change.

Events like the Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness, the move toward interdisciplinary approaches in the sciences, neural mapping, new technologies and perspectives of studies, and the instant reveal via the internet of common practices. And more. Including the media and its chase of folly and hyperbole.

But one thing of many that is apparent is that the value of the individual life is being acknowledged. I say that as a neutral statement.

For those whom find that unbearable to accept because it is in conflict with value focuses they were taught I guess its just something one will have to tough out.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 8:48 pm 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
captainjack0000 wrote:
One of the best (and arguably worst) ways to appreciate the value of nature is to take the life of an animal. Think of the trauma, and teachable moment that would occur should a child witness the slow death of a frog from gigging?


No Captainjack.. Think it through. That theory is wraught with sociological holes.

When rewards and organized kudus by adults are involved.

Are they planning to include Teachable Moments in illustrating the agony of the frogs? "Look kids - its still writhing...and remember kids, frogs are fully innervated chordates just like we learned in class!"


My response was not regarding the frog thing specifically, though used it as an example. There are many people who learn to appreciate nature (albeit in a different way than I do) by hunting. I think if you re-read my post you'll see I'm not in favor of this approach. I guess satire and sarcasm don't translate well on the forum :|


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 20th, 2015, 11:00 pm 

Joined: September 8th, 2011, 5:12 pm
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Kelly Mc wrote:
You've chatted, huh? So you have analyzed the whole organization as activists out to "con money out of people"

I know four individuals active in STFs. Yes, only Four. One is a herpetologist whom Im on an acquaintance level. The other a dendro hobbyest whom has bred some of the rarest forms. The other two are in the medical field, Chris who is a Physician and his wife who is in oncologic research who I call Macbeth because she has a complicated indian name. We are friends and I see them weekly. Every time off that they have is spent on traveling to take part in conservation efforts and they are extremely intelligent, logical people. As well as kind. You see, kindness and intelligence go together in the truly wise.

They are not "activists" whatever defines that terrifying catchword - uh, they eat meat for dinner if that's a clue. But who knows You and luv_thesmellof_a_strugglingsnakewhile_implayingwithit_like_amoron may have your own definition.

And I'm all for ending collection of wild amphibians for the pet trade.

If you saw the nightmarish results of frogs as playthings (by ADULTS as well) perhaps it would crack your rigid belief system.

But then again, perhaps not huh.


I don't know where this aggression is coming from, but I suggest you act like an adult and stop it. I have no beef with you nor do I have issue with the OP. I suggest you calm down.

I have had numerous conversations with Kerry (and you'll note my comments were about him in particular), and he is not really interested in an open dialogue about conservation. I first contacted him about a scholarship he had advertised on his website to help fund my research. It ended up with him asking me to donate to STF. Since then, I have a number of conversations with him about how to make a manageable message that would have broad support. For example, he had a (failed) goal of ridding frogs as dissections in the US. This wasn't going to happen. I had suggested STF take the position that they would be okay with frogs used for dissections if they were invasives (i.e., bullfrogs in California, Cane Toads). Kill two birds with one stone, as it were. Nope, he didn't condone the killing of any frogs, even if they were invasive. I had other conversations with him about frogs as pets. STF could take the position that only captive bred animals should be pets. That helps take pressure off of wild populations. Nope, no pets. And the trade ban? Bad idea. It would force it underground where it would be completely unregulated. Better to have it above ground where it can be watched and controlled than underground where it can't. I do support requirements for better biosecurity protocols on importing animals to prevent the spread of disease.

I've had a number of conversations with him, and it's all pretty much the same schtick. He's the equivalent of PETA for amphibians. At one point, he said that he was not obliged to listen to me if I didn't give STF money. That tells quite a bit. He's not in it for saving amphibians, he's in it for the money. Since STF is a registered nonprofit in California, their expenses are public record. Go ahead and see how much he pays himself. It's a larger percentage than other nonprofits.

So, yes, I have "chatted" with Kerry a bit, and since he is the one calling the shots for that organization, I think I have pegged it pretty well. You just need to see a few of STF's facebook posts and comments to see that what I say is true. I know there are good, smart people involved with STF, which is unfortunate, since their money and effort is being wasted. I mean, it has been around for, what? 7 years? And what meaningful impact has it actually made on amphibians? You know, aside from the frog art and SAVE THE FROGS! Day? Like I said, it's just a front, IMO, for a failed PhD to con money out of people. I know many PhDs, and he is the only one I've encountered who tells everyone he's a PhD all the time. There's reason for that.

Now, to the topic at hand, I would not personally ever go frog gigging because I do not like killing. And I don't really see gigging as a humane way to kill an animal. I only would support hunting if it humanely dispatches the animal. If there's suffering involved, I'm against it. I suggest you calm down, read what I said, and not jump to silly conclusions because you're all amped up about some perceived slight.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 2:23 am 
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You suggest that I .. "Calm down.." and "stop it.." and that I'm .. "All amped up.."

Do you have a telepathic link to my pulse rate or something? Or are you simply revealing some transparencies of your own in assumptions about my nature? And why would that be I wonder?

I'm actually in quite a serene and cheerful mood.

But in the spirit of your own subtextual paranormal abilities.. I suggest you are a gossipy exaggerator and that it extends to your assessments of STFs.

As to the opinion of Kerry on no pet frogs I say so what.

But don't worry I'm very calm. I'm alright. And actually kinda sleepy even.

Tootles!


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 2:52 am 

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Kelly Mc wrote:
You suggest that I .. "Calm down.." and "stop it.." and that I'm .. "All amped up.."

Do you have a telepathic link to my pulse rate or something? Or are you simply revealing some transparencies of your own in assumptions about my nature? And why would that be I wonder?

I'm actually in quite a serene and cheerful mood.

But in the spirit of your own subtextual paranormal abilities.. I suggest you are a gossipy exaggerator and that it extends to your assessments of STFs.

As to the opinion of Kerry on no pet frogs I say so what.

But don't worry I'm very calm. I'm alright. And actually kinda sleepy even.

Tootles!


You come across as very hostile through your posts. I don't know why. I don't really care, either. I accord everyone here with respect, and expect the same to me. Why you got so upset about what my experiences were, I have no idea. But that's your problem.

Again, STF is controlled by one person. That is who I make my assessment of. I'm not really exaggerating or gossiping at all. I'm sorry if my experiences conflict with your worldview. But I am reporting my experiences, not exaggerating at all. Would it help to say that I was actually told by folks at Amphibian Ark that they avoid STF as well? I doubt it, but it's true and I have the email to prove it.

But we're getting off topic. I have said my piece. You refuse to listen to it. That's your choice, but to paraphrase Dr. deGrasse-Tyson: The facts are true whether or not you choose to believe in them.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 3:08 am 
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Calm down Monarch...im not a member of STF or any organization or group at all. I do know sone people who are and they are very nice and for a group to focus on frigs well I think that's very nice.

I don't have hostile feelings toward you.

But really I bet you could find some other group of humans to critique than some folks who love frogs.

Ok I think I I'm going to have some toast now that I'm awake. Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 7:44 am 
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Putting aside this contest and the motives of Save the Frogs for a moment, I can't picture a situation where one would need feeder frogs to be impaled with a stick. My five-year-old daughter could execute at least two more humane methods of capturing and dispatching a frog. Are there actually snakes that need their frogs pre-killed anyway?

The ethics of sustainable harvest and the ethics of a particular method of killing are two entirely different things. I generally support sustainable harvest, and I generally am against needless, wasteful violence - I don't see those views as contradictory. I think it's fine to shoot squirrels for food, and I'm even ok with humanely dispatching them to defend a garden or bird feeder, but I still slam the brakes when they run in front of my car, because I believe that, if you are talking about the ethics of killing, there are factors (context, intent, method) that are more important than the raw statistics. For me, saying "I shot this squirrel because it was eating my cucumbers" has vastly different ethical implications than saying "I ran this squirrel over with my car because I didn't feel like using my brakes," even if the outcome is the same. Similarly, saying "I killed this frog because I need to feed my pet" is different from saying "I killed this frog because I enjoy killing frogs, and maybe my pet will eat it."


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 12:24 pm 
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cbernz wrote:
. . . I believe that, if you are talking about the ethics of killing, there are factors (context, intent, method) that are more important than the raw statistics. For me, saying "I shot this squirrel because it was eating my cucumbers" has vastly different ethical implications than saying "I ran this squirrel over with my car because I didn't feel like using my brakes," even if the outcome is the same. Similarly, saying "I killed this frog because I need to feed my pet" is different from saying "I killed this frog because I enjoy killing frogs, and maybe my pet will eat it."



I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about this contest/scholarship. It seems like a question of "I killed these frogs to go to college" vs. "I killed these frogs to eat them." There are other, more benign ways to earn scholarships. Heck, even just being left-handed can get you college money!


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 12:54 pm 

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chris_mcmartin wrote:
cbernz wrote:
. . . I believe that, if you are talking about the ethics of killing, there are factors (context, intent, method) that are more important than the raw statistics. For me, saying "I shot this squirrel because it was eating my cucumbers" has vastly different ethical implications than saying "I ran this squirrel over with my car because I didn't feel like using my brakes," even if the outcome is the same. Similarly, saying "I killed this frog because I need to feed my pet" is different from saying "I killed this frog because I enjoy killing frogs, and maybe my pet will eat it."



I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about this contest/scholarship. It seems like a question of "I killed these frogs to go to college" vs. "I killed these frogs to eat them." There are other, more benign ways to earn scholarships. Heck, even just being left-handed can get you college money!

Affirmative action for hillbillies??? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 1:43 pm 
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hellihooks wrote:
Affirmative action for hillbillies??? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Sadly, this does exist: http://www.businessinsider.com/columbia-changes-whites-only-scholarship-2013-5


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 5:26 pm 
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cbernz wrote:
Putting aside this contest and the motives of Save the Frogs for a moment, I can't picture a situation where one would need feeder frogs to be impaled with a stick. My five-year-old daughter could execute at least two more humane methods of capturing and dispatching a frog. Are there actually snakes that need their frogs pre-killed anyway?

The ethics of sustainable harvest and the ethics of a particular method of killing are two entirely different things. I generally support sustainable harvest, and I generally am against needless, wasteful violence - I don't see those views as contradictory. I think it's fine to shoot squirrels for food, and I'm even ok with humanely dispatching them to defend a garden or bird feeder, but I still slam the brakes when they run in front of my car, because I believe that, if you are talking about the ethics of killing, there are factors (context, intent, method) that are more important than the raw statistics. For me, saying "I shot this squirrel because it was eating my cucumbers" has vastly different ethical implications than saying "I ran this squirrel over with my car because I didn't feel like using my brakes," even if the outcome is the same. Similarly, saying "I killed this frog because I need to feed my pet" is different from saying "I killed this frog because I enjoy killing frogs, and maybe my pet will eat it."




I would trade all of my posts in delete for the above to stand as the Essential response.

Humane dispatch/euth of food animals and other in its necessity is part of husbandry. As important as skills that promote living and health. Good clean work.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 5:37 am 
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chris_mcmartin wrote:
I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about this contest/scholarship. It seems like a question of "I killed these frogs to go to college" vs. "I killed these frogs to eat them." There are other, more benign ways to earn scholarships.


That's exactly what bothers me about it, too. It's pure sport and exhibition. Is gigging a skill one could apply to their college studies?

chris_mcmartin wrote:
Heck, even just being left-handed can get you college money!


Really? WHERE'S MY MONEY?!?!


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 12:57 pm 
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I'm so confused op, you go out in the field to kill frogs? Why are you in a herp related forum?

In Australia this is 100% completely illegal and the general public would be completely disgusted. We seem to get along fine by frog scenting to feed our native frog eaters in captivity, I'm confused as to how you guys seem to struggle so much?


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 3:15 pm 

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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 4:52 pm 

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different rules apply when dealing with invasives... kill um any and every way you can... I say. I dispatch red ear sliders I catch in Ca, (along with every bullfrog i can) but don't advertize it widely, fearing negative pushback from 'turtle people'. I do it FOR our native Arroyo Toad and Western Pond turtles... it's a dirty job... but someones gotta do it... :|


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 7:41 pm 
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Its just as easy to do it fast and proper as it is to with, well, cretin flair. Maybe it has less to do with the status of the animal and more to do with how the person conducts their tasks as they walk and work and help.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 7:42 pm 
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hellihooks wrote:
different rules apply when dealing with invasives... kill um any and every way you can... I say.


I think I understand what you're saying. It can be hard to explain why arroyo toads are protected and we kill all the bullfrogs we find. But even invasive species deserve a quick humane death. It doesn't have to be a cruel spectacle even when the goal is complete eradication.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 22nd, 2015, 8:04 pm 
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Jim I was thinking of morbid contests and thick headed joys. Ive not read any hint of you ever being sloppy with animals or unnecessarily cruel. Clarifying.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 23rd, 2015, 6:51 am 

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I don't enjoy killing invasive animals, and do it as quickly and humanely as possible.

my point is if having to appeal to baser instincts (see python hunt in ENP) to help control invasives is what it takes... then that's a lot dufferent than killing native frogs for a college scholorship. :|


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PostPosted: June 23rd, 2015, 7:00 am 
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That's what I thought you were saying Jim. Thanks for clarifying. I agree with Kelly. You're the last person that would be cruel.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 23rd, 2015, 7:03 am 
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Baser instincts failed there too (the python hunt)

Hormones obscure professionalism and scientific clarity. Both estrogen and testosterone.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 27th, 2015, 10:07 am 
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Excuse me while I open a can of worms.

Why is killing invasive animals okay?

I understand the harm to the environment argument. On one level I agree completely.

But on another level, I challenge the idea that the world is supposed to look a certain way because some white people with Western educations say it is supposed to. Who says that pythons are not meant to be in the everglades, or that bullfrogs don't belong out west? We (people, natural creatures of this Earth) put them there. Those pythons have every right to be there as any other animal, no? Do people argue that horses and pigs should be removed because the Spanish brought them here in the 1500s? What about feral cats?

Why are people fixated on the idea of modifying the environment to look as it did some time in the past? In my education, it was more or less agreed upon that 'restoration' actually meant 'restoration to a pre-Columbian era' which actually further meant 'restoration to look like what experts think the pre-Columbian era looked like'. Invasives, or really any major modification that is difficult to undo, makes this a tougher job. Now it becomes a challenge to make areas look like they did in the 1950s, let alone the 1450s.

Any time we say it is okay to kill off invasive species, we're basically also saying that for this given geographic space, we value one species over another. What is being implied is that "nature" is supposed to look a certain way (decided by whom, for whom?) and that time and resources should be spent to "correct" this "error". Part of me wants to call BS. We have no idea how the world is supposed to look. It is all just a judgement, and the will of the privileged will prevail.

From the Burmese python's perspective, the Everglades are Shangri-La. From the Great Auk's perspective, or Carolina Parakeet's, people were an invasive species.


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PostPosted: June 27th, 2015, 7:17 pm 
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http://neobiota.pensoft.net/articles.php?id=1233


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 7:05 am 

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For me Noah... it's about biodiversity... invasives often have no predatory checks and balances, to keep their population stable, and can destroy local biodiversity.

I do however appreciate the argument you posit... that everything man does, good or bad, is natural. And it's also true that we humans prefer a rain forest to a desert... nature does not care if there millions of species or one single species. We might be considered a naturally occuring 'mass- extinction' and after we're gone, life will again diversify and flouish in which ever directions are left.

I don't even consider old buildings and piles of trash 'Artificial Cover'... and what few 'boardlines' I have are naturally occuring debris left by humanity... I have never 'set' or 'placed' boards or artificial cover.

That said... back to the 'value' of life....sentience aside... for humans value resides in 2 things... longevity and rarity, with rarity taking precedence... the more there is of something... the less it is worth... only one of anything makes it priceless.

there are fewer Arroyo all the time... there are more and more Bullfrogs all the time...holistically speaking, neither is worth more than the other... but to people (myself included) one is worth far more than the other. While not fully logical... it is the paradigm in play and as natural as the damage we cause.

Mother Earth ravaged, with torn bloody thighs...
Raped by a child gone completely insane
Gaia endures with tears in her eyes
If we kill the Earth, then everyone dies.


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PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 7:41 am 

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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 8:31 am 
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I don't disagree with you Jim. I just want to encourage people to stop and be critical of themselves, what they're doing and why.

Quote:
there are (or at least have been in the past) contests in Australia with the express goal of killing as many cane toads as possible. Some of these have not been particularly humane, including use of golf clubs to see how far one can drive a toad.


I get annoyed when people parrot back the "Kill the effing pythons" mentality without understanding why, or say things like, "A good cane toad is a dead cane toad." I think some people are looking for an excuse to be cruel to animals or go shoot stuff, and invasive species are an easy target. I hope they understand what they are doing and have a reason for doing it, other than its "fun" to whack toads with a golf club.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 9:18 am 
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To me, its less about how things should be and more about how we want them to be.

The idea that there is some natural, pristine state that we should be strive towards is loosing traction. However, invasive species often provide less ecosystem goods and services than native species. From a purely selfish, anthro-centric perspective, humans often benefit from controlling invasive species, and maintaining native, functioning ecosystems is critical.

Unfortunately, we're not ready to embrace a ecosystem function management paradigm. This goes for policy makers and mangers as well as the public. Its often easier to articulate and get buy in for single species management which often has to resort to the "natural" argument.

Python management is a lot sexier and easier for the public to embrace than invasive plant management. Even thought the money would be better spent managing weeds.

We need more engagement and participation by scientists and the public in resource management issues. Often the loudest and most persistent voices carry through into funding and policy.

edit to add the word "not"


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PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 9:43 am 
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Bryan Hamilton wrote:
Often the loudest and most persistent voices carry through into funding and policy.


Or the wealthiest voices, since money = speech :(


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 10:21 am 
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captainjack0000 wrote:
Bryan Hamilton wrote:
Often the loudest and most persistent voices carry through into funding and policy.


Or the wealthiest voices, since money = speech


Its frustrating and true. But for me its not an excuse to give up. I'm still idealistic enough to hope that right and truth with eventually win.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 28th, 2015, 3:42 pm 

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Bryan Hamilton wrote:
I'm still idealistic enough to hope that right and truth with eventually win.


For me... this begs the question... is only such a win, prosecuted idealistically acceptable... or is a win by any means neccessary acceptable?

For idealists... only the intent to do good matters... for a utilitarianist... only results matter.

applying idealism, no creatures (given universitality) should be golfed (for either distance or accuracy lol) to reduce their numbers... as golfing any animal wiould be morally wrong.

Applying utilitarianism... any method that reduces the numbers is fine... doesn't matter if you get your jollies teeing up toads, just trying to improve your swing, or kill toads for idealistic reasons... only thing that matters is how many toads get killed.

That's what ethics is all about... HOW people go about trying to reach the same goal. :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 29th, 2015, 4:26 am 

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Maybe it is the "Leave No Trace" mentality that I grew up with, but my view of invasives and population management basically falls under that. I think that humans have a moral responsibility to fix errors they've made. Yes, we're natural, but that doesn't mean everything we do should be okay. By that logic, why bother cleaning up after an oil spill?

An oil spill is a mistake that has wide-ranging effects on the local environment. The only difference between an oil spill and introduction of an invasive is that one is living and one is not. Both have drastic direct and indirect effects. Both have long lasting effects that can go one for generations. Both are extremely difficult to clean up completely. But because humans did both, I think we have a moral responsibility to correct that as best as we possibly can.

Are we going to remove all of the invasives from the Everglades? Not a chance. But that is a delicate ecosystem that deserves our protection. I personally like the idea of being able to go to a new area and see a completely difference set of animals. I'd rather not have the main animals I ever see be red-eared sliders, bull frogs, cane toads, rainbow trout, largemouth bass, house sparrows, and starlings. I'm going to echo what hellihooks said about biodiversity. From a scientific perspective, it's well known that invasives reduce biodiversity and that less biodiverse ecosystems are more unstable and less healthy.


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 Post subject: Re: Frog Gigging Ethicss?
PostPosted: June 29th, 2015, 5:22 am 
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Quote:
it's well known that invasives reduce biodiversity


Well yes, by their definition invasive species cause harm. But not all exotics are invasive, which is another concept I think can be confusing for some.

Southern Florida has a much higher level of biodiversity because of the exotic species. Only a few them are, at this point, are known to cause harm. E.g. Florida has no native nocturnal geckos. I'm sure the Hemidactylus spp. and others in this state compete against something, but as long as the native animals aren't driven to extinction, then biodiversity increased when they became established . I think it could be argued that some of these geckos do tend to spread. So are they invasive, or just exotic?

Another example are all of the anole species running around. If we turn back the clock far enough, there was at one point just green anoles, but now there are brown ones, large-headed ones, Hispaniolan green anoles, crested anoles, bark anoles, giant anoles, knight anoles, etc. But, it seems like these species really don't spread around too much, except perhaps the brown anole. And even in that case, I still see plenty of native green anoles around. Are these anoles a harmful exotic?

So far the examples presented in this thread, Burmese python, bullfrog, and cane toad, I think are pretty well known to cause harm. But there is a threshold somewhere that somebody sets. What level of harm is acceptable and how do we measure it? And what makes us think that metric is the best one? I think that article Kelly shared is interesting.


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PostPosted: June 29th, 2015, 12:20 pm 

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captainjack0000 wrote:
Quote:
it's well known that invasives reduce biodiversity


Well yes, by their definition invasive species cause harm. But not all exotics are invasive, which is another concept I think can be confusing for some.

Southern Florida has a much higher level of biodiversity because of the exotic species. Only a few them are, at this point, are known to cause harm. E.g. Florida has no native nocturnal geckos. I'm sure the Hemidactylus spp. and others in this state compete against something, but as long as the native animals aren't driven to extinction, then biodiversity increased when they became established . I think it could be argued that some of these geckos do tend to spread. So are they invasive, or just exotic?

Another example are all of the anole species running around. If we turn back the clock far enough, there was at one point just green anoles, but now there are brown ones, large-headed ones, Hispaniolan green anoles, crested anoles, bark anoles, giant anoles, knight anoles, etc. But, it seems like these species really don't spread around too much, except perhaps the brown anole. And even in that case, I still see plenty of native green anoles around. Are these anoles a harmful exotic?

So far the examples presented in this thread, Burmese python, bullfrog, and cane toad, I think are pretty well known to cause harm. But there is a threshold somewhere that somebody sets. What level of harm is acceptable and how do we measure it? And what makes us think that metric is the best one? I think that article Kelly shared is interesting.


On this, keep in mind when the exotics came in they would have affected the population of natives. After the native populations decreased, and the exotics increased, the populations leveled out to what they are now. May they still be changing one way or another? Perhaps or perhaps not. I think that over time, at least with the pythons, the animals they prey on will level out with the python population. Sure, we may think its bad and decimating now, but because of how entrenched they have become into the everglades, I think 100 years from now they may be considered just part of Florida wildlife like the Brown Anoles.

Similar to fishing, where each generation has different standards for "normal" hulls of fish, with the "normal" being less and less each year with smaller and smaller fish. I believe the same thing will happen with exotics and efforts to get rid of them will have to be 100%, or we should look at them as more of a way to "ease" the native ecosystem into the newest members.

Separately, as far as "watching the frog die in agony and pain" I do find it learning, if not done by a human. I feed live Leopard Frogs to my Eastern Hognose Snakes through winter when I can't get toads. I can hear them as they croak from within the snake until they either suffocate or bleed to death. This winter, when I am using True Frogs again, I plan to run an experiment on this. Look at the time that a Southern Leopard Frog can hold its breath underwater, and compare this to how long until the croaking stops once ingested by an Eastern Hognose Snake.

On the subject of gigging frogs, I think a "campaign" should be directed at exotics like Cane Toads. In Australia, there is a small entrepreneur that has learned how to cook Cane Toad legs to neutralize the poison so they are safe for humans to eat. He takes people out, they gig as many as they can, come back to camp, and cook them up.

Back to exotic/invasive control, finding ways to monopolize on an economic use, primarily food I'm thinking, can help counter this. I know Hg level can cause issues with Pythons though.


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