Greed is sooooo ugly

Extended discussion forum.

Moderator: Scott Waters

joecop
Posts: 78
Joined: June 19th, 2010, 7:31 pm

Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by joecop » June 27th, 2010, 5:19 pm

I had the most incredible trip to CA this year and spent lots of time in the field with some great guys. We found lots of zonata (target species) and many other herps. All were lifers for me and I had the time of my life. The only thing I regret about the whole trip is seeing how greedy and ugly some people can be. The first to photos will show what I mean and it still makes my stomach turn when I look at them. When will people learn. This is what happens when its about money to them and not about enjoying nature. I kept my first zonata and it was by no means the prettiest z, but it was the first!!. We released everything else where we found them. We (when I say we I mean Mitch! LOL) Found our first Z of the trip in less then 1 minute from exiting the vehicle. No joke. I am only posting a few photos of the herps because the damage is my main concern and topic.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by justinm » June 27th, 2010, 5:39 pm

Is there anyway a freeze thaw cycles split this rock? If not yeah sometimes it's sad to know that you're the same species as some people.

Brad Alexander
Posts: 71
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brad Alexander » June 27th, 2010, 5:40 pm

It's unfortunate you are using this as your example since it is NOT caused by herpers. There is a fair bit of damage up there from herpers, but this ain't it. Be careful listening to Mitch, he jumps on the "rock damage" bandwagon a little too quickly. I'm out of town and only punching away on my iPhone now. I'll give you a better responce later in the week or if I make it to a PC tonight. This particular example was done by dozers when they logged the area. Just below this main outcrop you show here there are some flat rocks that have been misplaced and broken for two reasons, both of which are herper induced but likely not because the color of money. Anyway, I'll go into it more later.

User avatar
Ross Padilla
Posts: 2665
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 5:29 pm
Location: I love L.A.
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Ross Padilla » June 27th, 2010, 6:09 pm

I have to agree with Brad about that rock damage being done by something other than herpers. Thats just way too thick. If so, how could they break pieces that thick and gently enough without killing anything? Maybe some of the smaller pieces though. Anyway, looks like you guys had a nice outing. That Z is gorgeous. :thumb:

User avatar
Chad M. Lane
Posts: 567
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:40 pm
Location: Manteca, CA
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Chad M. Lane » June 27th, 2010, 6:10 pm

I am also one to be extremely mad about rock damage, and I am also very picky on how I put rocks back as best as I can.

I can pretty much agree with Brad that this doesn't look like herpers, if it was the larger rock would also be in the grass, not just 3 small pieces. If you look at the photo the damge is only to the right side of the rock at least from what I can see. I have no clue if it was from a logger, it also could be frost/snow damage as well.

A poacher wouldn't even bother putting the rocks back on the bedrock.

Very sexy zonata by the way!



Cheers,
Chad

Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Paul White » June 27th, 2010, 6:29 pm

If that rock splitting was done by hand it was one big burly muscular dude.
Sucks that it happened but I can't picture someone standing there with a sledgehammer and chisel to do it...

User avatar
Fieldherper
Posts: 239
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 9:46 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fieldherper » June 27th, 2010, 6:56 pm

Joecop,

I find your post quite presumptuous. How many times have you herped CA? You see outcrops like that all over the state and they are not the result of herpers. Sure, some rock damage has been done by herpers, but it pales in comparison to the forces of nature and developers with bulldozers. This argument has been going on for a long time. It has also been the basis for game agencies restricting take on certain species/subspecies that are in no need of "protection." What posts like yours do is to provide further ammunition to those who wish to restrict fieldherping activities by making the argument that the habitat is damaged and the animals are threatened. There are papers from the 70s asserting that "rock damage" is threatening populations, yet if you herp these locales today, the animals are just as easy to find.

How many zs did you guys find in these "damaged" areas?

Nothing personal, I am just tired of seeing these self-righteous types of posts that could very well result in further restrictions being placed on herping activities. Look at the current situation in Texas. If you spend some more time in CA, like the 30 years or so that I have herped there, you will realize that most rocks split apart and caps and flakes fall off independent of the activities of herpers. There are still tons of zs, boas, granite night lizards, chuckwallas, etc.... in them thar hills.

FH

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by erik loza » June 27th, 2010, 7:13 pm

Even of that damage was caused by herpers, which is wasn't, the fact that it was "one minute off the road" should come as no surprise. If you just hunt rock outcrops that you can see from the road, that is what you encounter. And as you showed, you can still find baby z's in the trashed piles. That's how I most commonly have seen them in the Lagunas.

User avatar
Jeff Lemm
Posts: 411
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:08 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Jeff Lemm » June 27th, 2010, 7:23 pm

Damage is damage and it sucks. It may not be from herpers, but herpers do it everywhere. You may want to tone down your negativity to this person and others for stating a simple opinion. For one, it makes FHF look bad, and two, if this is who I think it is, he has herped longer than everyone here and is ridiculously good at it. He also happens to be Laurence Klauber's last student. Be cool, we're here for fun. Joe, it is a pleasure to have you here - please keep posting.

User avatar
Fieldherper
Posts: 239
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 9:46 am

Jeff...

Post by Fieldherper » June 27th, 2010, 8:00 pm

Jeff...

I think that his post is the negative one. Again, I think that it is presumptuous and it casts CA herpers in a bad light.

I don't care who is making the post or what his credentials are...the message is wrong. He spoke of having "the most incredible trip to CA" and finding "lots of zonata and many other herps." Despite this, he goes on the negative: "it's about the money and not about enjoying nature." Who knows it's about money?????

I am certainly not defending those who engage in rock damage, but I definitely think that the scope/impact of "rock damage" has been vastly overstated for years. It is an eyesore, nothing more. As a longtime western herper, I definitely have respect for rock structure and leaving it as good, or more often BETTER than how I found it. YES, it is possible to leave it in better shape. I know of many others who do the same.

I recall a post on FHF before the crash about rocks being misplaced on a glade in MO. Unscrupulous herpers were initially suspected, but it later came to light that folks were riding ATVs all over the place.



Joecop: Again, nothing personal. I know you probably haven't herped CA much (if at all) in the past. If you had a great trip and found lots of cool stuff, then post photos of that. Don't jump to conclusions and cast herpers in a bad light based on unproven assumptions.

Herp populations in CA have many threats, but herpers are not a major one. DEVELOPMENT and large scale habitat/ecosystem alteration is number one. Even so, someone name one snake species that has gone extinct in the state, or the USA for that matter.

I hope this clarifies my position.

FH

Aaron
Posts: 287
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » June 27th, 2010, 8:28 pm

As Brad said the area is a historical logging site and the main damage was not done by herpers. This is another example of how we need to look at the whole picture. Generally speaking that damage was done on all our behalf's so that we can have houses, furniture, fire, paper, etc. Commercial harvest of herps could be a very green and renewable source of income if it were managed with habitat protection and sustainablity in mind. I'm not advocating commercial collecting, nor am I condemning people for living is wooden houses, etc., it's just that sometimes I wish people would look at the issues with more logic and objectivity.

I'm not aiming this at the original poster. I think we all have had similar reactions when we see this sort of stuff. Commercial collecting is definately one source of rock damage but believing it's the only one is not going to do any good when it's not the real problem.

Fieldherper does make a good point about Texas' roadban. When I talked to Hilderbrand's office before they got the roadban instituted they told me that one of the reasons it was needed was because there was "alot" of people coming from out of state and commercial collecting off of the roads. I told him that I had been herping TX for 10 years and that only a very small percentage of people I had seen were doing that. I said that out of the hundred plus people I've seen and met I would say less than 10% were commercial collecting. But Hilderbrand's office was under the unchangable impression that massive commercial collecting was going on on the roads. Now as a result of scapegoating those few commercial collecters nobody can even pose a herp for a photograph on the side of the road. Ironically most turtles(by far the most vulnerable to harm by collection) never were taken off the road. They were trapped from ponds on private property and you can still collect on private property and as far as I know, traps are still a legal method to take turtles by. Point being misinformation leads to mismanagment.

User avatar
Mitchell Mulks
Posts: 40
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:47 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mitchell Mulks » June 28th, 2010, 12:35 am

Brad - Dude, why so negative towards me?! Yes, I do think there is a lot of rock damage associated with zonata habitat, but that's generally because there is a ton of damage. Some of the spots in the Greenhorns (the most herped area just west of your place...a bit over the summit) are completely trashed. Rick and I first visited the area a decade ago, and since then have seen the rock get thrashed...worse than it was when we first saw it. On our first trip there in 1999 Rick and I discovered a horizontal crack; it was a 500-pound piece of granite on top of a huge pile. Within the crack were two VERY adult zonata. We were able to extract one of the animals without damage to the habitat. Mind you, this pile was nearly 300 yards from the road and up a steep-ass hill. Three years later we returned to find that 500-pound piece of granite 100-feet down the hill, lying on the ground. How is that the work of bulldozers? How did cows do that. Only a cow bitten by a radioactive spider could have gotten up there. Practically every canyon and ravine at this site has been trashed by the lazy and disrespectful herper. We have photos from a decade ago, care to see them? Once again, why you chose to say I'm quick to jump "the rock damage" gun is beyond me. Sure, we all create some damage, but you have to admit that there's a lot of blatant damage at most zonata locales that are done by people with complete disregard for the animal or habitat.

Lastly, if people don't cause that much damage, then why are we all so secretive of our best spots? I'll answer that - because eventually, by word of mouth and multiple persons, either the majority of animals will be removed or the habitat will be trashed. I used to be open with my sites, that is until I got tired of having to fix rock and replace the AC I had laid out. I got tired of seeing all the snakes slowly disappear with each passing spring. That's why I only take my closest friends to my best sites. Isn't that why you don't take anyone and everyone to your best spots?

Punk-ass Brad! :thumb:

P.S., you know I'm just joshing you man. But seriously, I'm not that quick to jump...I'm just tired of seeing all the rock trashed. Hasta bro.

Mitch

Erik - I've hunted those trashed piles in the Lagunas, and yes, you can and do regularly find zonata in them. However, in piles I've had the privilege to hunt BEFORE damage has occurred, I have typically found more animals before the damage as opposed to after. Also, after a pile is damaged I tend to find that the demographic of snake changes, with more hatchlings and juveniles found in damaged rock as opposed to adult animals. These are simply my own observations.

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 678
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Scott Waters » June 28th, 2010, 1:23 am

Plenty of room here for all opinions. The tone of a conversation is the responsibility of the author and the respondents, especially early in the dialogue. Not surprising at all to see aggressive replies. In this case, there is plenty of great discussion to read in to, regardless of the jabs taken by both sides.

Have fun.

scott

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by erik loza » June 28th, 2010, 4:12 am

Mitchell Mulks wrote:....Erik - I've hunted those trashed piles in the Lagunas, and yes, you can and do regularly find zonata in them. However, in piles I've had the privilege to hunt BEFORE damage has occurred, I have typically found more animals before the damage as opposed to after. Also, after a pile is damaged I tend to find that the demographic of snake changes, with more hatchlings and juveniles found in damaged rock as opposed to adult animals. These are simply my own observations.
I think your buddy just got off on the wrong foot, here. Nobody knows him and he basically cried Chicken Little and sort of pointed the finger in a de-facto way. It would be like taking a friend mountain biking for the first time, watching some other bikers crash on the trail, then him go onto a forum with a bunch of regulars and saying, "Biking will get you hurt!". There's only one way that will end, LOL. Just my opinion, which any can accept or reject as they please.

The surprising thing to me is that he comments about how he kept the baby z., yet why didn't you make him rebuild that pile? That's what I always do.

User avatar
Dougsnake
Posts: 31
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:59 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Dougsnake » June 28th, 2010, 4:35 am

Nice pics Joe,
thanks for posting and welcome to the wolf den.

Image

joecop
Posts: 78
Joined: June 19th, 2010, 7:31 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by joecop » June 28th, 2010, 6:08 am

First of all, I did not keep that baby z that was posted. That z was much nicer then the one I kept. Secondly, I might have been wrong about the damage in the photo posted but we did see lots of damage. I am not trying to give herpers a bad name, quite the opposite. I was hoping to show how careless herpers can give herping a bad name. Maybe I went about it in the wrong way. I don't know. Brad, Mitch spent lots of time correcting me when I CLAIMED herpers did so much damage and he pointed out that other factors did most of what I was seeing. Not being experienced in the CA mountains (thirty five years herping time elsewhere) I did not know much about the rock damage I saw.

Crotalus
Posts: 180
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:05 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Crotalus » June 28th, 2010, 6:34 am

joecop wrote:I am only posting a few photos of the herps because the damage is my main concern and topic.
Lame.

User avatar
Andreas Kettenburg
Posts: 45
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:00 pm
Location: Ventura County, Ca

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg » June 28th, 2010, 6:53 am

Would it have hurt to have visited spots in the Central Sierra's instead? So concerned with the all apparent herper negligence in that area, yet bringing more new herpers in.

Andreas

User avatar
Jeff Lemm
Posts: 411
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:08 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Jeff Lemm » June 28th, 2010, 7:14 am

Again, I agree about the rock damage. My point is to mellow it out as many of you (especially those who don't use their real names) don't know who you are talking to. I spoke with a very well-known and respected past curator this weekend who said this very thing about this forum. Herpers are giving themselves a bad name by jumping on people. The original poster is a legend, show some respect.

Brad Alexander
Posts: 71
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brad Alexander » June 28th, 2010, 7:29 am

Mitch... DUDE! Why so defensive. LMAO! You know I love you, so chill out. Most of what you were bringing up had nothing to do with my comment regarding Joe's particular picture.

I lightly discussed 2 issues - 1. the fact that I know of you as someone that jumps overboard on the rock damage scene (known from personal experience and even mild arguments with you) and 2. the photo NOT being a good example of herper induced rock damage.

*****This is not communicated with a bad attitude, only stating my experience from my own perspective. So PLEASE, do not take it harshly. It simply is what it is. And yes, I realize the need to defend yourself, but I'm not saying you are a horrible person, just saying you jump on that bandwagon a little too quickly (in my opinion).******

Starting with issue #1, I've seen on several occasions where you pointed to herper rock damage when I know for a fact it was not. I even seen a log one time that was trashed by a bear, complete with bear claw marks and you jumped on that bandwagon right off the bat. It took some effort to convince you otherwise. In any of this, I'm not saying herpers aren't lazy and do no wrong, because they do and there is tons of evidence to show that. I just think you jump to blame them too quickly when other things are at work. For example, I sent you to a section this year with Joe where I KNOW there is no rock damage, at least not caused by herpers. But talking to you on the phone you insisted there was all kinds of evidence of rock damage. You said it was old, but obvious. I would gladly challenge you or anyone else to show me IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA where the damage is and I will explain to you what you are looking at.

AGAIN! I'm not saying there isn't damage up there, including some of the place where you guys went herping, because there is (not in that particular spot I'm talking about above though). It's just that Joe posted a picture of what he claimed to be herper rock damage. I'm sorry, I can't let that go because what he is showing in that picture is 100% not herpers. I've worked up there and seen the bulldozers do their handy work. That whole area was heavily logged and replanted and there are skid trails all through that area from the tractors. Additionally, that particular pile has looked like that since the late 90's when I first set eyes on it. In fact, the vast majority of rock damage up there is not to individual outcrops, but to the smaller, individual rocks themselves. This is from being displaced. You get 10 groups a year coming through there looking under the same rocks and each person moves the rock out 2 inches (the sloppy people), or worse yet, flips it completely and does not place it back (the idiots) and things quickly begin to look trashed. Some of that is what you see on that hill top near where Joe's picture was taken. The only other spot up there, which is SUPER bad, is up that little side drainage where there are rocks scattered about everywhere. Beyond that, the rocks are in pretty good order considering the attention they've received. I've been so bummed out about it that over the last several years, I hardly even go up there. I went 1 time each over the last multiple years now. I have my other spots off the beaten path up there that I enjoy, and even those I only visit once a year, if that. The other big problem that we've discussed before is the trampling of vegetation. You get a couple of groups through there and it just screws all the veg up and makes it look really bad. So yeah, I'm not defending rock damage nor the lazy people that commit this crime. I'm only saying that what Joe has pictured IS NOT caused by herpers and that you most certainly do jump on herpers in situations when it is not warranted. Yes, people need their a$$es kicked, I agree with you, but I'm all about giving credit ONLY where credit is due.

I think what I need to do is take my camera and walk that area and document all the rock, the good and the bad.
------------------------------

Now this is where I get frustrated and you can read all the attitude into it that you want because your post was freaking retarded dude.

"if people do not cause that much damage".....

I never said this!

"some of the spots in the Greenhorns (the most herped area just west of your place....."

I'm not talking about that area! And yes, that place is just sick!

Stay on track here dude... focus.... It's about the picture in this post and it's about my experience with you. You got so crazy defensive in your reply that you started bringing up other stuff and examples that have nothing to do with what I was saying.

I never said anything about a 500 pound piece of granite that was 100 feet down the hill. There is no reason for you to be misleading in my reference to JOE'S PICTURE ONLY!!!!

Your reply is exceedingly frustrating because you are bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with my reply to Joe. You are going off about another area and other situations. I understand the need to defend yourself about when and where you point the finger since I am saying you jump on the bandwagon too quickly. But please, do not act like I am talking about THAT area you are bringing up, because I wasn't. You are acting like I'm saying that stuff was not herper induced. Now you are causing me to defend myself over something I did not say. YES! YES! YES! all true what you are saying regarding that rock damage over.... there. YES! YES! YES! All true about too many lazy herpers that are greedy to boot. But lets only point the finger and blame herpers when it is absolute.

--------------------------------

Now, to those that got all butt hurt over Joe's attack of California herpers. I understand you getting all butt hurt, but do realize that it's true. People are thrashing the rocks. Much of it is caused from someone seeing that flash of red and not being able to contain themselves, show some discipline and leave it in the crack. No, instead you jackwholes have to go crowbar the rock or dynamite it or whatever you do to thrash that hide just to get at the snake. I have to wonder how many times a snake has been killed in these efforts. This is a needless loss to both habitat and to the snake. So here's your warning from me. If I catch people busting rocks I'm going to wrap the crowbar around their head.

In conclusion, nobody here is without blame, not me, not Mitch, not anyone. If you herp enough, you are going to have fault, make mistakes and do things that cause damage. Just trampling the veg alone is nasty. Sure it grows back and I've seen areas that have been just thrashed come back really well after being left alone for a while. But still, we are all out there doing what we do. Make no mistake about it, we are having an impact. Is it so negative that we should not do it at all? Some would suggest so, but not me. I say enjoy the resources, but do your absolute best to respect those resources, tread lightly and enjoy the beauty of herping with as little impact as you can.

--------------------------------------

Andreas just chimed in with an excellent point. Of which I was not going to bring up. But I have to tell you, I know of several times now that you, Mitch, have brought people to these spots as well as telling people about them. On several occasions now I've been told about how a particular person, in one case, a group, came to know how and where to hunt this area. I've always been frustrated about it, but I have never complained. You asked about taking Joe up there and assured me it wasn't a big deal, and I agree. But this is a free country and I do not feel I have any right to tell you who you can and cannot share info with. Beyond that, like I mentioned, there are people and even at least one group that I know of that was told about the area by you, yet was not cleared by me. Like I said, I don't think I have the right to say either way. But if you want to blame anyone for rock damage, you have to include yourself. You too are part of the equation. I'm only saying this because I think sometimes WE ALL lose site of that fact.

---------------------------------------

Now Jeff has chimed in regarding respect.

Jeff and Joe and even Mitch. I hope that anything I have said does not come off as being disrespectful as that is not my intentions. This is merely a discussion.

And for the record Jeff. I will never care who someone is. I do my best to treat people according to how they act on here and in person. Not knowing Joe, my goal was only to correct the injustice of blaming THAT rock damage on herpers when it is not.

I'll see you in a couple of hours Jeff. The family and I are really looking forward to visiting the Wild Animal Park. It is something we have never done (somehow it seems to slip by without the attention it deserves whenever we are in town).

----------------------------------------

Crotalus
Posts: 180
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:05 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Crotalus » June 28th, 2010, 7:45 am

Jeff Lemm wrote:I spoke with a very well-known and respected past curator this weekend who said this very thing about this forum. Herpers are giving themselves a bad name by jumping on people. The original poster is a legend, show some respect.
See thats what makes the internet fantastic. "Legend" or not, you say something dumb, someone can call you out on it.

Switch settings: Legendary Joe is giving a talk about his California trip to some herp society back east. Joe is free to spread his bad info, unchecked, because who is going to question Legendary Joe, face to face? Luckily, by stopping at the internet first, Joe gets his details straightened out a bit.

P.S. What I'm sure most people are reacting to is the perceived "you money grubbing herpers" attitude, which is largely bullsh*t in CA (maybe it happens in FL?). And the "I'm not going to show you pictures of animals, because someone damaged the rocks" part seems a bit pathetic. Like, did he really just show up to scold the internet herping community for some rock damage he saw while looking for Zs? Give me a break.

-JJ

User avatar
Jeff Lemm
Posts: 411
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:08 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Jeff Lemm » June 28th, 2010, 7:51 am

Brad, I actually had no original problem with your post; see you in a few hours, and I hope you respect Gitmo, ne'll tear you a new ass, lol.

JJ, I don't think Joe came off that way at all. And it did not read to me that I'm not showing you pics because you damage rocks. BTW, people talk about you in particular young grasshopper - the bold ones here are always the shy, young quiet ones in real life, lol.

Crotalus
Posts: 180
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:05 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Crotalus » June 28th, 2010, 8:03 am

Jeff Lemm wrote: JJ, I don't think Joe came off that way at all. And it did not read to me that I'm not showing you pics because you damage rocks.
The post is called "greed is so ugly". The dude posted as many photos of rocks as he did snakes? He went through the trouble of logging onto this forum and creating an account, just to tell the internet herping community he found some damaged rocks in Z country...
Jeff Lemm wrote:BTW, people talk about you in particular young grasshopper - the bold ones here are always the shy, young quiet ones in real life, lol.
Shy and quiet? You must have be talking about the days when I was under the impression you were awesome :lol: What are you doing on the internet? go find an albino Tantilla or something.

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by erik loza » June 28th, 2010, 8:11 am

Devil's Advocate Position: I am kind of indifferent to rockpile damage. If you live(d) in California and hunt(ed) for zonata, then you cannot avoid it. In fact, I can think of a couple of "herping legends" who who have openly discussed the use of crowbars and hydraulic jacks. Some destruction comes from bad herping habits, a lot of it comes from Mother Nature and other forces, like cattle grazing. "So what?", is what I tell myself when I see and often, I try to rebuild the damage if I can, make it usable for baby z's. I personally find most herpers who do this type of thing lazy and if they cannot see it from road, they get back in the car and drive on. I actually find it motivation to search for spots more off the beaten path, where others have never been.

I guess, for me, it boils down to "Do you want to have an agenda?" or "Do you want to find zonata?", because if it mattered to you that much, you would spend all your time being some sort of self-appointed watchdog over rock outcrops instead of actually herping. And if your argument for being a watchdog is from a legal standpoint, then out of equity, you would also need to campaign against herpers who lay out trash and boards, right? Because littering is a crime on public lands.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, just saying that this shades of gray, not black-and-white, and there is some hypocrisy at all levels.

User avatar
Jeff Lemm
Posts: 411
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:08 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Jeff Lemm » June 28th, 2010, 8:52 am

lol JJ, now that you're a big boy, better get a bigger monitor to hide behind - and you still think I'm awesome, thats why you can't find an albino, lol.

Crotalus
Posts: 180
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:05 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Crotalus » June 28th, 2010, 9:11 am

Jeff Lemm wrote:and you still think I'm awesome, thats why you can't find an albino, lol.

Yes Jeff, your albino finds are an inspiration to all those who stop for Chionactis and Arizona :lol:

However, at the rate your ablino finds seem to be declining, I anticipate the next species to be a Eumeces, a LECH, or an earthworm.

-JJ

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin » June 28th, 2010, 9:25 am

erik loza wrote:... I'm not asking anyone to agree with me...
You might not be asking for agreement, erik, but I'm going to give it to you, anyway. :thumb:

I see putting trash - excuse me, "artificial cover" - out on public property (or private property without the landowner's permission) as no less slob-hunting and no less detrimental to the herp hobby than rock-tossing/breaking, bark peeling, etc. In fact, that thought immediately leapt into my mind upon reading the very first post in this thread.

The second thought that entered my mind was, where exactly does greed (as opposed to just slob-hunting) come into play here, really? Are there truly that many L. zonata being poached out there, and does rock-tossing/breaking truly improve the poachers' bottom lines? I'm not arguing, but just asking.

Gerry

chad ks
Posts: 632
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by chad ks » June 28th, 2010, 9:35 am

gbin wrote:
erik loza wrote:... I'm not asking anyone to agree with me...
You might not be asking for agreement, erik, but I'm going to give it to you, anyway. :thumb:

I see putting trash - excuse me, "artificial cover" - out on public property (or private property without the landowner's permission) as no less slob-hunting and no less detrimental to the herp hobby than rock-tossing/breaking, bark peeling, etc. In fact, that thought immediately leapt into my mind upon reading the very first post in this thread.

The second thought that entered my mind was, where exactly does greed (as opposed to just slob-hunting) come into play here, really? Are there truly that many L. zonata being poached out there, and does rock-tossing/breaking truly improve the poachers' bottom lines? I'm not arguing, but just asking.

Gerry
I agree. I believe that non-commercial herpers are more responsible for a lot of the habitat damage that I see because virtually all of the former commercial collectors that I've spoken with tend to preserve the habitat as best as they can as a means of protecting their future bottom line. Then you have non-commercial collectors, most of which are great and responsible people, but a few of which who do not care for the habitat if it isn't a location that they plan to revisit many times in the future.

jswingchun
Posts: 29
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 4:20 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jswingchun » June 28th, 2010, 10:03 am

chad ks wrote:I agree. I believe that non-commercial herpers are more responsible for a lot of the habitat damage that I see because virtually all of the former commercial collectors that I've spoken with tend to preserve the habitat as best as they can as a means of protecting their future bottom line. Then you have non-commercial collectors, most of which are great and responsible people, but a few of which who do not care for the habitat if it isn't a location that they plan to revisit many times in the future.
This makes perfect sense to me regarding commercial collectors protecting habitat for future $. I think that the non-collecting people busting up rocks or flippin' stuff without putting it back are either people who don't care as Chad mentioned, or people that are just too dumb to know better.

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 678
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Scott Waters » June 28th, 2010, 10:09 am

Who is selling zonata, anyway? If you see captive breeding ads, they look like they can't give them away! If the market wanted theses things, wouldn't it be MUCH worse than some piles here and there (that are clearly "popular spots") torn up? The market ALWAYS dictates poaching, at least on a large enough scale to really make a difference.

I'd be more upset that they took you to well-known (apparently) spots! You deserved better. :)

scott

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by erik loza » June 28th, 2010, 10:15 am

I doubt there is any true commercial collection of zonata. Too much work and not enough demand, just like alterna.

The saving grace, to me, of herpers who would do stuff like this to the habitat is that they tend to burn out very quickly and not return to the hobby. When I lived in California, I saw about 100x more rockpile damage from cattle, natural weathering, and urbanization than I did from "irresponsible collectors".

Again, it's a double standard: Someone can call a herper "greedy" but there are dozens more species of herp in California grasslands and foothills than zonata (which will prob. never be affected by urbanization due to their niche habitat...) that are taking the hit way harder from new home development. Yet, we all want a Costco and Starbucks closer to the house, so easier to turn the other cheek. The fact that it's only a crisis when it suits us is the hyprocrisy to me.

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » June 28th, 2010, 10:43 am

Look what I missed.. Oh Boy...... :lol:

Fundad

User avatar
Mitchell Mulks
Posts: 40
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:47 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mitchell Mulks » June 28th, 2010, 11:41 am

Fundad - Yup, look what you missed! Oh boy. You don't really want to jump into this mess do you? It'll be like jumping feet first into the Le Brea Tar Pits! :lol: :lol:

Fieldherper - You are such a douche! Your post is negative. Your tone sucks! Nah, just messing with you. For all of you who don't know Fieldherper, he's probably one of the finest herpers I've ever met; both in etiquette and the ability to find herps. However, I do disagree with your stance that "It is an eyesore, nothing more.". As I said to Erik in my previous post, I tend to see a different demographic in piles with significant rock damage. I tend to find fewer adults and more hatchlings and juveniles. I don't know if this is because the adults have been taken, or the rock is no longer suitable for whatever daily activities they need to engage in.

Chad - Yes, I agree with your assertion, if you're a professional poacher it's in your best interest to preserve the habitat. I do think the professional poacher thats intends to RETURN would be very considerate with preserving the habitat, however, for poachers engaging in one-stop shopping, where is the incentive to be respectful to the habitat? Once again, I agree with your assertion that the majority of rock damage we see is done by the over-zealous first-timer that simply must have the snake. Regardless of who's doing it, it would be rock damage caused by someone engaging in herp-related activities.

Andreas -
Would it have hurt to have visited spots in the Central Sierra's instead? So concerned with the all apparent herper negligence in that area, yet bringing more new herpers in.
I don't know if you've herped the central Sierra, but there's significant damage all throughout them as well. Fieldherper would have to agree with me here. One of the main highways through the central Sierra has massive amounts of rock damage all along it. Where there's rock, and where zonata have been found...you'll find damage; regardless of where you are. As for where I brought him, I took him to an area he had expressed interest in hunting. It is an area that quite a few people know about, but it isn't all over the radar. As I said in a previous post, ten years ago there was much less damage. If I thought Joe was a complete douche when I met him I would have taken him to 1500 foot elevation just outside of Fresno! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dougsnake - Yup, it reminds me of all the warm replies a newbie gets when they post over on Kingsnake! Damn jackals! :thumb:

Fieldherper -
Herp populations in CA have many threats, but herpers are not a major one. DEVELOPMENT and large scale habitat/ecosystem alteration is number one.
I don't think anyone here would argue against this. Your point here is simply a given. However, I think we react so strongly to damage caused by other herpers because we know better. We know that development, for the most part, is beyond our control; but the education of other herpers and how to herp responsibly is well within our control. BTW, those were some fantastic photos you sent me.

Joecop - It was great herping with you. Everyone here is pretty darn cool (for the most part. I'd shy away from that Brad joker though! ;) ). Some are just a bit more vocal than others.

Erik - You mention that you doubt there is any TRUE commercial collection of zonata because the reward is not worth the effort. I'd agree and disagree. Yes, they don't demand much on the open market (around $200-$300 an animal). But, and this is a big but, every spring I always see ads pop up for pulchra on "not allowed". It's obvious that the majority of those animals are wild-caught Laguna snakes. The Laguna's are 45 minutes from a major metropolitan area, are well known and relatively easy to herp (i.e., flat and loaded with roads). Every year I hear through the grapevine rough numbers of how many pulchra might have been taken from the Laguna's. What's to keep an out-of-stater from visiting the Laguna's, taking a couple z's, and then selling the snake(s) they quickly tire of? Nothing. Whether this is true commercial collecting or not, this does happen and it is commercial in the long run.

Now that I've responded to everyone personally I'd like to address the mechanism I feel is the leading-most culprit of rock damage. That culprit would be the internet; more specifically, these forums. Don't get me wrong, I love these forums. Over the years I've seen images of animals completely new to me and heard firsthand accounts of herp adventures from people halfway across the globe. It's been fantastic. However, information is so fast to travel that people are no longer having to earn their knowledge. When you have to labor for five years to find your target species, most of us develop a very strong bond and respect for the animal and its habitat (as well as an undenying urge to curse the herp gods every time you come up empty!). But, for those that see an image, say that of a zonata, and have never attempted to find that animal, they never developed their own association with the species. They're simply given the exact locality of where to find the animal. They show up, know the animal is there, and proceed to ravage the hillside. Their trials-and-errors are not made in the wrong habitat (like most of ours are when we're seeking out a new species), but instead right where the animals are. Now, this example is specific to the newbie herper. Some of us have greatly benefited from instant localities from other seasoned herpers...I'll be the first to admit to benefiting directly from a phone call and a location given. But, there's a lot of newbies that peruse these forums simply looking for locality information. They have very little field experience and lack the proper discipline when herping. When the forum went down Scott made mention that this forum had thousands of members. Thousands! However, I tend to see the same people posting repeatedly. That means that there are hundreds, if not a couple thousand people, who simply pull up the webpage, get a general sense of the locality (as we aren't allowed to post exact localities) and temporal setting, and send a PM if they want more info. Too much info to too many people. Anyhow, I'll hop off my soapbox now.

I apologize to everyone if my post is a little jumbled, but my four-month-old is a handful while typing. Here's the world's most awesome future herper!
Image

Mitch

stlouisdude
Posts: 412
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:30 pm
Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by stlouisdude » June 28th, 2010, 1:17 pm

gbin wrote:
erik loza wrote:... I'm not asking anyone to agree with me...
You might not be asking for agreement, erik, but I'm going to give it to you, anyway. :thumb:

I see putting trash - excuse me, "artificial cover" - out on public property (or private property without the landowner's permission) as no less slob-hunting and no less detrimental to the herp hobby than rock-tossing/breaking, bark peeling, etc. In fact, that thought immediately leapt into my mind upon reading the very first post in this thread.
.

Gerry
Not to take the topic off track, but Gerry are you sure those boards were not dumped first by someone else, and then rearranged by herpers? I've found lots of tins and boards dumped by nonherpers and some of them were already in pretty good spots. I believe they were dumped by nonherpers because no one else seems to be checking them. It is also possible they were abandoned by herpers or just not checked often. I would never advocate someone place AC without permission (is seeing a snake worth a criminal record, anyway?) and I would certainly hope no one on this forum is doing so. In MO, property owners often dump junk on their own property lol One can just pull up to the guy with the weediest pile of junk around the place and ask for permission to go through it.

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin » June 28th, 2010, 1:57 pm

stlouisdude wrote:Not to take the topic off track, but Gerry are you sure those boards were not dumped first by someone else, and then rearranged by herpers?
I don't think it's off track at all, stlouie.

1) I don't know about the AC specifically mentioned so far in this post, but I do know that various folks have at various times in the past in this forum mentioned hauling out and setting up their own AC on public land in CA (and in the southeastern U.S., too, but that's not the topic at present). I'm inclined to take them at their word, though of course that's the only proof I have of what they're doing. (Now watch some smart alec tell me to prove this point by offering up examples from the archives. ;) )

2) Even where a herper's AC is the result of illegal dumping by someone who got there before him/her, I think s/he's nonetheless helping to set up the herp community for a perception problem by spreading the trash out further to maximize its usefulness for finding animals. If we can tell the difference between a carefully tended array and a forgotten pile of trash, so can other people, including non-herping outdoor enthusiasts, regulating authorities, etc. Once said array gets associated with herping, then I don't think it matters all that much how the trash got there to begin with so far as its effect on how we are viewed.

Gerry

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by hellihooks » June 28th, 2010, 2:26 pm

Mitchell Mulks wrote: However, information is so fast to travel that people are no longer having to earn their knowledge. When you have to labor for five years to find your target species, most of us develop a very strong bond and respect for the animal and its habitat (as well as an undenying urge to curse the herp gods every time you come up empty!). But, for those that see an image, say that of a zonata, and have never attempted to find that animal, they never developed their own association with the species. They're simply given the exact locality of where to find the animal. They show up, know the animal is there, and proceed to ravage the hillside. Their trials-and-errors are not made in the wrong habitat (like most of ours are when we're seeking out a new species), but instead right where the animals are. Now, this example is specific to the newbie herper. Some of us have greatly benefited from instant localities from other seasoned herpers...I'll be the first to admit to benefiting directly from a phone call and a location given. But, there's a lot of newbies that peruse these forums simply looking for locality information. They have very little field experience and lack the proper discipline when herping. When the forum went down Scott made mention that this forum had thousands of members. Thousands! However, I tend to see the same people posting repeatedly. That means that there are hundreds, if not a couple thousand people, who simply pull up the webpage, get a general sense of the locality (as we aren't allowed to post exact localities) and temporal setting, and send a PM if they want more info. Too much info to too many people. Anyhow, I'll hop off my soapbox now.
Mitch
These are certainly valid concerns. I meet alot of lurkers in the field, and sloppy herping seems to growing at an exponentional rate up here in thr Hi-desert. BUT... I also have met alot of novice herpers who (like myself) REJECT any help in finding a target species... other than perhaps which Co/ Mt range to go to. I've never seen a pulchra... probably cause I went to Laguna beach to find them...
:roll: :lol: I take pride in figuring out how and when to find a target species myself... AND finding my own spots. In this, now my third year of trying to find a SB Z, I re-discovered a outcrop I found 2 yrs ago, which I'm sure will produce Z's and I was pretty sure had never been herped before. Just to be sure, I asked J Teel the other night when we were herping, if he knew of that outcrop... and of course... he did, but gave me carte blanch to go there, cause he knows I won't trash his 'backyard'... and because I found the spot ON MY OWN, and have never asked him for a spot!
I'm NOT trying to toot my own horn... my point is that there are actually a bunch of novice/up-coming herpers who share this 'pride in one's own ability' mentality, as a counter-point for the 'not-working-for-it' arguement. It is a mentality I believe we should actively promote, rather than JUST lament the absence of... :roll:
Hell... I met a 17 yr old herper the other night, whose Grandfather drops him off at localities, where he does 4-6 hrs of herping ON FOOT, day/night, and gets picked up later. And he has vouchers of Z's and Rubber boas in spots that even Teel's never thought to look... :shock:
In a nutshell... the forum's a tool, which like any tool will be used for both good and bad... so i thought that I would put at least one 'good' story out there... jim
Now as for some of the 'tools' who frequent the forum... well, thats another story... :lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » June 28th, 2010, 2:38 pm

then I don't think it matters all that much how the trash got there to begin with so far as its effect on how we are viewed.
That's ridiculous, Artificial Cover is used in Scientific studies these days..

When you say how we are viewed, who are you referring too as viewing us?

Fundad

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin » June 28th, 2010, 2:58 pm

Fundad wrote:... Artificial Cover is used in Scientific studies these days..
Uh-huh, by people who have proper permission to put the AC out, which isn't what I'm talking about at all.
Fundad wrote:When you say how we are viewed, who are you referring too as viewing us?
Folks who we would do best not to encourage to think of herpers as slob hunters, poachers or anything else bad, if it can possibly be avoided. Mainly other outdoor enthusiasts (I don't know about things in CA, but in FL I often encountered birders/hikers who tended to think every tree missing its bark in Apalachicola NF was made that way by herpers, for example - and some of them were quite vocal in complaining about it), and of course the authorities charged with regulating all of our activities.

Gerry

User avatar
Andreas Kettenburg
Posts: 45
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:00 pm
Location: Ventura County, Ca

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg » June 28th, 2010, 4:40 pm

Mitch, I'm totally aware that the Central Sierra's have plenty of rock damage, my point was simply a selfish one on my behalf. I've been visiting that area since approx 1999 and the "main" spots seem to be getting hammered more each year. Very few animals are observed in those areas now, compared to 10 years ago. We've simply had to find new spots. It's amazing how much larger the population densities are of not only z's, but all of the other usual suspects in the newer spots. Those older,"main"spots used to be soooooooo damn good too!



Andreas......

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3634
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan » June 28th, 2010, 6:02 pm

On the question of "commercial collectors" and Z's....


What about the amateur herpers who collect everything they see, and then either sell it off or just let it die? I don't think these guys are really "commercial collectors", but I can't believe that they're not eventually selling off their snakes because they seem to collect so many that I don't know what else they would eventually do with them. I've been on limited trips with other field herpers, but I've seen instances where 80% of the notable finds ended up in a bag*. Seriously, do you really need another helleri? Ruber? Kingsnake? Z? If they're collecting stuff at the rate that I've seen in on some of these trips, then how is their house not overrun with herps in 2-3 years, unless everything is dying or getting sold?



* I should note that in the several times I've herped with Fundad I've never seen him collect a thing, just to make sure that he doesn't get tainted with any of that brush. And I've never seen a herp collected on a NAFHA trip, though I had to seriously dissuade an individual once.

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » June 28th, 2010, 6:27 pm

Fundad wrote:
When you say how we are viewed, who are you referring too as viewing us?
Folks who we would do best not to encourage to think of herpers as slob hunters, poachers or anything else bad, if it can possibly be avoided.
We wouldn't want to be viewed badly in poachers eyes? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:
Mainly other outdoor enthusiasts (I don't know about things in CA, but in FL I often encountered birders/hikers who tended to think every tree missing its bark in Apalachicola NF was made that way by herpers, for example - and some of them were quite vocal in complaining about it),
I am confused to what "peeling tree bark" and AC have in common here??
and of course the authorities charged with regulating all of our activities.
Hmm we have unsightly Tree Stands, duck blinds, fishing docks, but they are going to look at us badly because of natural elements such as Wood and Tin??

All of of what your saying is a real stretch, and to compare the placing of Wood and Tin, to create habitat is, equal to Rock alteration and bark peeling is misleading and inaccurate..

Fundad

User avatar
chris_mcmartin
Posts: 2427
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by chris_mcmartin » June 28th, 2010, 6:37 pm

gbin wrote:1) I don't know about the AC specifically mentioned so far in this post, but I do know that various folks have at various times in the past in this forum mentioned hauling out and setting up their own AC on public land in CA (and in the southeastern U.S., too, but that's not the topic at present). I'm inclined to take them at their word, though of course that's the only proof I have of what they're doing. (Now watch some smart alec tell me to prove this point by offering up examples from the archives. ;) )

2) Even where a herper's AC is the result of illegal dumping by someone who got there before him/her, I think s/he's nonetheless helping to set up the herp community for a perception problem by spreading the trash out further to maximize its usefulness for finding animals. If we can tell the difference between a carefully tended array and a forgotten pile of trash, so can other people, including non-herping outdoor enthusiasts, regulating authorities, etc. Once said array gets associated with herping, then I don't think it matters all that much how the trash got there to begin with so far as its effect on how we are viewed.
I think you were still on an FHF hiatus when I discussed my placing of AC on my local public land this spring. I had the permission of the natural resources manager (federal property); the AC was labeled letting people know it was part of a biological survey and had a contact number on it, and the cover is essentially taking the place of natural cover which has been destroyed in the past 7 years. Now that the grass has grown up all around it, if you don't know exactly where to look, you'd never know it was there.

I doubt many people who place AC on public land go to that extent, which means they're basically like "geocachers"--litterbugs. :shock: :P

What's doing more damage is the flock of sheep which roams the area and leaves droppings all over the AC! (although I'm sure the sheep are there to eradicate invasive plants; they're rotated around different parts of the property).

I haven't given a whole lot of thought to it, but the situation is a little like jugline fishing. In many states, juglines must be marked with the owner's contact information, so you know it's not trash or abandoned. Why shouldn't board lines be treated the same?

Aaron
Posts: 287
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » June 28th, 2010, 6:46 pm

The second thought that entered my mind was, where exactly does greed (as opposed to just slob-hunting) come into play here, really? Are there truly that many L. zonata being poached out there, and does rock-tossing/breaking truly improve the poachers' bottom lines? I'm not arguing, but just asking.
gbin, I have no idea how many individual specimens get poached but I do believe poaching zonata occurs on an annual basis at several locations.

Damaging the rocks only helps if one is not planning on hunting that particular area again. Any knowledgable commercial collecter who poaches zonata on a regular basis would be well aware that damaging the rocks is counter productive in the long run.

In my opinion inexperienced collecters(that would also include photo only collecters) and "short-timers", who are just on a one time trip to poach a breeding pair or two for their own collection, are the ones most likely to damage rocks.

Aaron
Posts: 287
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » June 28th, 2010, 8:37 pm

Mitch I second your thoughts about the internet. Now I freely admit that I was taught how to hunt z's, for me figuring it out and trail and error were not factors. But what I did have was personal instruction. I was taken to a spot, shown by example how to treat the habitat and most importantly, my first search was scrutinized by a teacher who was actually there and offering criticism as I was hunting. It's funny to me how some get so offended by criticism offered over the internet that is no different than the criticism I gladly recieved as if it was a gift when I was being shown.

You said is that one being spoonfed info over the internet is less likely to have respect for hunting sink in the way it tends to when one earns success through trial and error. I guess I sort of agree with that but the main thing I was thinking of was something relating more to timing. When people post the same day, or within a few days of when they find stuff it lets literally everybody with internet know that right now zonatas are active. This includes many people who are aware of the general areas and general times of year one can find z's but they are normally too lazy or they live far away and in general they are less likely to put forth the effort and expense to get into the field more than once or twice a year, if that. Then say see a post showing that z's are up right now and they know that if they go now they are likely to hit "pay dirt". So they are much more willing to spend money, take time off work, travel long distances, etc. to do whatever it takes to get into the field asap. I believe that these are often the type of people who don't take care with the habitat because they are in a hurry.

Now I don't deny that there are plenty of people out there who respect the habitat no matter what, even if they only get out a few times a year but I honestly believe these people can find other ways to achieve success. They don't need to see an overly detailed post in order to get help on when, where and how to herp. If their motives are innocent they would do better to invest a year or two getting to know a few potential mentors through herp societies, NAFHA and/or the pm function.

User avatar
Chad M. Lane
Posts: 567
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:40 pm
Location: Manteca, CA
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Chad M. Lane » June 28th, 2010, 10:45 pm

Wow I can't believe this thread as turned out this way, wasn't expecting this.

Everyone has valid points, some invalid points.

To go along with what Aaron wrote.

About 5 years ago Dave Tobler took me, and Edgar Ortega out looking for zonata, even though that way we didn't find any I learned a lot on how, to put rocks back properly, and how to respect habitat. I also learned more about how to find zonata as well. I am a very hands on learner, I can't just take down instructions and then go do it, as easy as I can through trial and error.

The next year Dave took myself and Dave Jahn out to find zonata again. We found six zonata that day. The next two years, I went out during the wrong time of year scopeing out spots for zonata closer to home. I failed mostly because I was going out to late in the year. Then last year I headed farther from home to a well known area for zonata, as the hours went on, finding Whipsnakes, Gophersnakes, Sharptailed Snakes, I called Brian Hubbs and he directed me to an area, and I did end up seeing two zonata, even though I couldn't actually get my hands on either of them. Just finding them I learned more of what zonata prefer.

So this year I said screw asking anyone for help, I headed out to the sierras on my own checking out spots I poked around that winter. I didn't want to ask for any help, I wanted to find my OWN spots, without anyone's help, and I applied what I had learned from Dave, Brian (and his book) and I found 3 spots with zonata this year, all in different county's. I can tell you what I know I can go back to these spots and find zonata again during the right time of year, if no one else goes there and messes up the rocks, as I spend a lot of my time actually putting the rocks back as best as I can. I've even gone back and seen a rock I could have moved just a few cm's more and fixed it.

I guess my whole point is, go find your own spots, and be respectful to the rock, habitat. Only then will you feel good that you didn't have someone tell you exactly where to go to find something. Even though I had found them before thanks to Dave, and Brian, it felt much better finding them on my own, in virgin outcrops, that I know I can go to for years to come and find zonata.




Cheers,
Chad

User avatar
dezertwerx
Posts: 809
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:05 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by dezertwerx » June 29th, 2010, 12:00 am

Good comments of the duck blinds Fundad... but there are always gonna be people complaining about anything :x

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by hellihooks » June 29th, 2010, 5:27 am

Aaron wrote:
You said is that one being spoonfed info over the internet is less likely to have respect for hunting sink in the way it tends to when one earns success through trial and error. I guess I sort of agree with that but the main thing I was thinking of was something relating more to timing. When people post the same day, or within a few days of when they find stuff it lets literally everybody with internet know that right now zonatas are active. This includes many people who are aware of the general areas and general times of year one can find z's but they are normally too lazy or they live far away and in general they are less likely to put forth the effort and expense to get into the field more than once or twice a year, if that. Then say see a post showing that z's are up right now and they know that if they go now they are likely to hit "pay dirt". So they are much more willing to spend money, take time off work, travel long distances, etc. to do whatever it takes to get into the field asap. I believe that these are often the type of people who don't take care with the habitat because they are in a hurry.
There is actually a gentelman's agreement (among those who are proficient at flipping Z's) here in So Cal, not to post Z pics until well after the flipping season is over. I posted my first Z, which was roadcruised with Brian... but checked with him first about posting it. jim

User avatar
Kent VanSooy
Posts: 1100
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Kent VanSooy » June 29th, 2010, 7:20 am

There is actually a gentelman's agreement
And folks have done a wonderful job about not posting their montane finds on the CA forum! Hopefully it's done some good (which of course is part of the dilemma, there's no way to know for sure).

joecop
Posts: 78
Joined: June 19th, 2010, 7:31 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by joecop » June 29th, 2010, 8:17 am

This is the reason I waited until now to post any photos from my trip. I certainly did not expect the reaction I got from my post,(YIKES) but at least it got folks talking. I plan on posting some more herp photos shortly. I wish I had taken more photos than I did but that camera gets heavy hiking at that high elevation! I am in pretty good shape (so I thought) but obviously my legs and lungs work better at sea level. LOL.

TC Reptile
Posts: 59
Joined: June 14th, 2010, 9:24 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by TC Reptile » June 29th, 2010, 8:29 am

Man.....as a new member of this forum and a local Cali herper for the last 40 years.....this petty snippy shit back and forth to each other is a real turn off to wanting to become involved and post more........just sayin'......

Post Reply