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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 8:29 pm 
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Mike Waters wrote:
gbin wrote:
Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
Seriously Gerry? Laying out AC without permission could lead to cheating on one's spouses, or cheating on board games with one's own children?...

As I advised Fundad earlier in this thread, Andreas, try reading what I wrote again and see if maybe you can understand it better this time. (Hint: The paragraph you're reacting to doesn't say anything at all about "laying out AC," nor does it say anything at all about one form of misbehavior causing another.) Don't give up, I'm sure you can get it if you try hard enough! :thumb:

Gerry

P.S. Wow... :crazyeyes:


Gerry for as smart as you are you can be pretty dumb.
What else cold you have meant by that comment. I think Brad may have the. Right idea about you.

Ibidem.

Keep working on those reading skills, guys! I'm rooting for you! :thumb:

:crazyeyes:

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 8:32 pm 
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Gerry Wrote:
Quote:
Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
Seriously Gerry? Laying out AC without permission could lead to cheating on one's spouses, or cheating on board games with one's own children?...

As I advised Fundad earlier in this thread, Andreas, try reading what I wrote again and see if maybe you can understand it better this time. (Hint: The paragraph you're reacting to doesn't say anything at all about "laying out AC," nor does it say anything at all about one form of misbehavior causing another.) Don't give up, I'm sure you can get it if you try hard enough!

Gerry

P.S. Wow...


I think I got Gerry. "When they realize that they're on the losing side of a debate", as I clearly am, now my own form of misbehavior, eg. "losing this deabte" could lead to me cheating on board games with my kids, OR cheating on my spouse.

Sorry for the confusion, now this all makes sense.

Andreas.....


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 8:47 pm 
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Andreas wrote:
I think I got Gerry. "When they realize that they're on the losing side of a debate", as I clearly am, now my own form of misbehavior, eg. "losing this deabte" could lead to me cheating on board games with my kids, OR cheating on my spouse.

Hmmm, if someone appears to be trying but still just isn't understanding what he reads, is it better to let him think he is than to keep correcting him?

Maybe you should get some sleep, Andreas, and give it another try tomorrow. :thumb:

It's been fun, kids, but I'm heading for bed in any event. Don't y'all stay up too late now, you hear?

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 8:52 pm 
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Gerry, I really wish I could understand what you are saying. I need to get some sleep too. Maybe I'll give it another shot tomorrow!

Andreas.....


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 9:23 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm
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Quote:
In some cases herpers will mind if a few small areas are disturbed; then how can herpers argue that no one else could possibly mind if a few small areas are disturbed? If the areas we're considering are identical in the two cases, the comparison is absolutely direct.


Patrick, if this is what you meant the whole time then I honestly misunderstood you. I do agree 100% with you there. I can also recognize that I am not as keenly aware of how certain things may affect specific non-herp life forms but I do think about it all of the time.

The main difference, at least in my mind, between boardlines and rock damage(I won't go into bark peeling because that's not really something I see very much of, if any, where I herp) is that boardlines tend to be placed in areas where there are alot of the same things.

What I mean is when you place a board on top of some grasses and/or plants, whatever it is that you're covering, usually you can see alot of the same grasses and/or plants throughout the whole area. So the grasses and/or plants in that particular 4' x 8' area one is covering up are well represented throughout the remaining area and this is easy to see as one is placing the boards. The other thing is that, in general, plants and grasses repopulate quickly, at least in the moisture retaining soil types/areas where boardlines are typically placed. I am aware that in some arid, desert and tundra type areas there are probably alot of plant species that can take very long times to grow/repopulate. Boardlines are not usually used in these areas because they simply don't work very well there.

On the other hand rock outcrops don't simply grow back. I know earthquakes, fires, etc. can form new features literally overnight but for all practical purposes once you damage an outcrop, it's probably going to stay damaged for decades, if not centuries. Additionally there are indications that rock outcrops represent a concentrated area of herp activity. Outcrops are generally thought to perform important functions such as protection from extreme elements that are hard to find in other areas of the habitat. Herps may actually travel from distances in order to obtain these features which rock outcrops provide. So when you affect one small outcrop it is possible that you are affecting a much larger area than is actually represented by the literal square feet of that outcrop. I could be totally wrong but I have long thought there are certain rock outcrops which act as "strongholds" which herp populations use to endure harsh periods such as droughts and fires, which afterwards form the basis of repopulating the area. I don't know this to be true, it just seems to me that damaging rock outcrops would have and exponentially greater and much longer lasting effect on whatever relies on them.

In any case, if I am being predjudiced or narrow minded in any regard I think it is more likely that I am over estimating the impact of rock damage than I am underestimating the impact of boardlines and I'm ok with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 9:30 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 10:56 am
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See, that's the thing with the great wackadoodle. He spins off in so many different directions and muddies up the waters with so much BS only hoping that you are confused in the process. He'll attach BS after BS from point A to C then back to B then all of sudden jump on over to Z and claim you have reading comprehension issues. He will either ignore my post here or work real hard to twist the hell out of it like he does everything else. I'm looking forward to it Gerry.

Gerry, most of the CRAP you bring up as you ramble has NO business in this thread. You make comparison after comparison as you continually add insults within these comparisons. Then you insult even more by telling people they are too stupid to understand you. If you do not want to be misunderstood, quit attaching so much crap to your commentary.

WACKADOODLE!!!!!!

What do you do for a living Gerry? How is it that you can find so much time to insult people on these forums? Are you living off of the state? A single income from your wife or something? Does she know how much time you spend on here?


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 9:55 pm 
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Gerry, I am most interested in your bad behavior/cheating in board game Correlation. If none of is have figured it out by noon tomorrow would you consider typing up a break down. I don't think you can. I think your just being antagonistic. You make my head hurt. I'm going to sleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 10:12 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 2:23 pm
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Mike Waters wrote:
Gerry, I am most interested in your bad behavior/cheating in board game Correlation. If none of is have figured it out by noon tomorrow would you consider typing up a break down. I don't think you can. I think your just being antagonistic. You make my head hurt. I'm going to sleep.


I believe all he's saying is that "underhanded" behavior isn't any better in the forum than in the real world. To approximately reverse the manner in which he's making the point, if you wouldn't engage in various obvious immoral behaviors in real life, don't do so on the forum, either.

I think he's overstating the point & don't agree with his assessment of the frequency of "underhanded" behavior on the forum, but it doesn't strike me as particularly obscure...

Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2010, 10:15 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm
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Quote:
Don't worry, Mike, it's pretty hard even for people who actually know me to offend me, let alone folks who are essentially strangers to me except through their posts to an internet message board. I am often perplexed, though, by how ready some people here are to abandon open, honest discourse for more underhanded means of persuasion when they realize that they're on the losing side of a debate. I sometimes wonder, do these same people attempt to cheat in sporting events, in board games with children, in their school or workplace, on their spouses, etc. as well? Or do they somehow absurdly think that bad behavior here doesn't count as it would in the "real world"? Like I said, it perplexes me...


Andreus I think what Gerry meant is that if you are the type of person who tells nasty lies on the internet, you probably do other nasty nasty things in your everyday life. It's like ball python morphs where the heterozygous ones have a "marker". This is a tiny little visual mark such as a little bit of partial striping or something. When you see that "marker" that indicates the animal is carrying genes for a hidden trait. So I think what Gerry is saying is that while you may not be cheating on your spouse(edit: or spouses) it is very likely that your children could grow up to become cheaters on their spouses(edit: or spousi as the case may be). In essence you are het for cheating and it is possibly a result of you cheating your children at Candyland or Chutes and Ladders.

If it gives you hope Gerry I would say that bad behavior is on the internet is less indicitave of bad behavior in everyday life. People in general seem to vent about petty things alot is on the internet, much more than in real life I would guess is. I also think it's kinda funny(and maybe a little embarassing for my part) how Patrick and I are going round and round, probably due in large part to me taking offense at being called myopic and me blowing it all out of proportion. If he did that to me face to face, probably within two or three minutes we'd have reached a clear undertanding of what each of us meant as well as an amicable conclusion. On the forums it always seems to take alot longer time and alot more effort to reach an amicable conclusion and what might seem like a lie might just be a misunderstanding due to the fact that most people can't type as fast as they can think or speak.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 5:15 am 
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Thanks for the clarification guys. Yah, I assumed that what he meant, it just sounded so absurd.

"Expressed bad behavior on this forum could lead to other misbehaviors such as: attempt to cheat in sporting events, in board games with children, in their school or workplace, on their spouses, etc."


Andreas.....


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 6:01 am 
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Aaron wrote:
If it gives you hope Gerry I would say that bad behavior is on the internet is less indicitave of bad behavior in everyday life. People in general seem to vent about petty things alot is on the internet, much more than in real life I would guess is.


I hope you're right.

I try to represent myself on here the same way I would talk to someone in person. I'd hope others do the same--I travel often and get the opportunity to meet various folks on here and all the people I've met "in real life" have been great folks...who talk in real life about the same as they do on here.

What's my point? If you only know somebody by what you read of their postings here, you might come away with the wrong impression as to what that person's really like in person. Or maybe you'll come away with the RIGHT impression.

To the folks who "talk" a little "abrasively" here, if that's how you would address someone (in "real life") with whom you disagree, then...wowza.

Obviously I won't get to meet EVERYONE on here in person, but if I'm planning a trip and some guys in the area say "that Chris guy? Yeah, he comes across as a horrendous [perjorative]," that tends to disincline someone to want to meet up and go herpin' with me. So I try to treat everyone with dignity and respect (while tearing apart their ARGUMENTS, not them, if warranted).

I don't agree with every opinion on here, but I don't have to be a jerk about it either. :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 6:19 am 

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FYI - I don't care to put up with any BS, my good friends that have also been a part of this thread can attest to that. However, if you are a good person, you'll find that I'm about as giving and caring as they come. I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I demonstrate exactly what you would get in person. I can be real a jacka$$ if that's what you have coming. Expect no sugar coating from me. The opposite is also true, if I give you props or a pat on the back (not this sarcastic crap I give the greatness), you can bank on it being real. So now what? This thread is going to leap frog into another direction regarding internet characters verses personal lives? LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 7:11 am 
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chris_mcmartin wrote:
Aaron wrote:
If it gives you hope Gerry I would say that bad behavior is on the internet is less indicitave of bad behavior in everyday life. People in general seem to vent about petty things alot is on the internet, much more than in real life I would guess is.


I hope you're right.

I try to represent myself on here the same way I would talk to someone in person. I'd hope others do the same--I travel often and get the opportunity to meet various folks on here and all the people I've met "in real life" have been great folks...who talk in real life about the same as they do on here.

What's my point? If you only know somebody by what you read of their postings here, you might come away with the wrong impression as to what that person's really like in person. Or maybe you'll come away with the RIGHT impression.

To the folks who "talk" a little "abrasively" here, if that's how you would address someone (in "real life") with whom you disagree, then...wowza.

Obviously I won't get to meet EVERYONE on here in person, but if I'm planning a trip and some guys in the area say "that Chris guy? Yeah, he comes across as a horrendous [perjorative]," that tends to disincline someone to want to meet up and go herpin' with me. So I try to treat everyone with dignity and respect (while tearing apart their ARGUMENTS, not them, if warranted).

I don't agree with every opinion on here, but I don't have to be a jerk about it either. :beer:



I think he's right (it holds true for me as well as a number of forum members that I've met), but I think your way is far better.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 8:28 am 
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jonathan wrote:
I think he's right (it holds true for me as well as a number of forum members that I've met), but I think your way is far better.


I sure wish KW was back, not because I agree with him (because on most matters, I don't), but I sorta want to meet him in person to see if he is as abrasive in real life as he says he is...but I'm afraid of being trapped with him for several hours and enduring that tone of conversation, just to find a few snot lizards. :lol:

I DO have to work with people that DO come across as sorely lacking in "people skills," and it's mentally exhausting!


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 8:35 am 
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Boy I go away for a night drive and we have 2 new pages now.. :lol: :lol:

BTW I did my best not hurt anything during my night drive including Microbes, I hit a few grasshoppers and moths with my windshield though, and for that I am truly sorry.

Brad-Man I love it when you get FIRED UP.. :thumb: And PROUD to call you a friend..
Aaron-You deserve huge props for the way you've handled yourself in this thread..
Andreas-You deserve merit badge as well, apparently You and I aren't qualified enough to understand Gerry.. :lol: :lol:
Mike Waters-The more I know you the more I enjoy reading your posts..
Daryl-Trying to bring reason to this thread will just get ignored... :lol:
Chris-I have meet you in person, and you are, were, respectful in person..
Patrick-Its really to bad you seem to assume the worst in people. Instead of calling a person MYOPIC, I think your response would be better served with replies that show us something like the plant post above.. (Man I Love that, and you
might be surprised) Not only those people on this thread, but many others might do, to go out of there way to not hurt or harm something that is endangered or threatened.. I always tell people I herp with that I really need to herp with someone that knows plants well, so I can be educated on them better.. Like I pointed out way earlier in this thread in SO CAL we are infested with NON native grasses and weeds, and I go out of my way to not step anything native and step on the NON native stuff.. Same goes for any herp habitat placement..

Gerry- Did you say something important?? :lol: :lol:

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 9:08 am 
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Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
Thanks for the clarification guys. Yah, I assumed that what he meant, it just sounded so absurd.

"Expressed bad behavior on this forum could lead to other misbehaviors such as: attempt to cheat in sporting events, in board games with children, in their school or workplace, on their spouses, etc."

I agree that the sentence above sounds absurd, Andreas. It's not at all what I wrote, of course.

Do folks want to continue the game of misstating what an opponent said to try to make him look foolish, or shall we move on now?...

Aaron wrote:
If it gives you hope Gerry I would say that bad behavior is on the internet is less indicitave of bad behavior in everyday life...

I hope you're right too, Aaron, but I fear you're not. It's generally been my experience away from the internet that if someone is willing to argue dishonestly (e.g. misstating his opponent's position to make it easier to argue against or ridicule) then he's willing to be dishonest in other ways, as well, and if he's willing to be dishonest about something small then he's also willing to do so about something big. I reckon different people are primarily motivated by different things, and to such people as I described in the last sentence honesty in whatever form may just be a pretty low priority; perhaps in these people what determines how honestly they behave is only a matter of whether they think they'll get caught or how serious the ramifications for being caught will be. But then that seems to suggest that they will behave differently here on the internet than in many other places, because here they can be anonymous and/or assume nothing will come back to them from their misbehavior for other reasons (e.g. physical distance between posters, lack of real interaction in each other's lives). So maybe there's more room for hope than has seemed to me to be the case. I'll think about it...

Aaron wrote:
... face to face, probably within two or three minutes we'd have reached a clear undertanding of what each of us meant as well as an amicable conclusion. On the forums it always seems to take alot longer time and alot more effort to reach an amicable conclusion and what might seem like a lie might just be a misunderstanding due to the fact that most people can't type as fast as they can think or speak.

I certainly agree with this. That's largely why I find it so confusing that many people don't try harder to say just what they mean and mean just what they say in their internet posts. Speaking plainly might not be as much "fun" for some folks, but when all parties in a conversation endeavor to do so it can sure make that conversation easier and more productive. Again, I reckon that may just be a pretty low priority for a number of people, compared to things like winning an argument, getting a laugh out of making fun of others, etc.

Chris, I have herped with KW (but only once) and have seen him socially in other settings as well (but only a few times). He seemed a nice enough and interesting person while we were together. I'm not happy that after I invited him into my home to take pictures of a number of my animals with the understanding that he would provide me with copies of said pictures, he never delivered said pictures or even responded to my numerous requests for them, though. It was like as soon as he got what he wanted from me he decided to ignore me, and his promise to me be damned. Not cool at all.

Happy Independence Day, everyone!

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 9:10 am 
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I'm a little wimpy guy in real life, so I try and be a tough guy on the internet. It works for me.

Did you find anything last night Brian?


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 9:19 am 
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Did you find anything last night Brian?


Just some Misc stuff.. 2 glossies, 2 shovelnose, 3 Leafnose, and a ton of laughs..

its pretty cold down this way..
Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 9:25 am 

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Quote:
Do folks want to continue the game of misstating what an opponent said to try to make him look foolish, or shall we move on now?...


LMAO! Yeah, but you've got 3 fingers pointing back at you. What a jokester you are. You are funny guy, you make me laugh long time.

Quote:
I hope you're right too, Aaron, but I fear you're not. It's generally been my experience away from the internet that if someone is willing to argue dishonestly (e.g. misstating his opponent's position to make it easier to argue against or ridicule) then he's willing to be dishonest in other ways, as well, and if he's willing to be dishonest about something small then he's also willing to do so about something big. I reckon different people are primarily motivated by different things, and to such people as I described in the last sentence honesty in whatever form may just be a pretty low priority; perhaps in these people what determines how honestly they behave is only a matter of whether they think they'll get caught or how serious the ramifications for being caught will be. But then that seems to suggest that they will behave differently here on the internet than in many other places, because here they can be anonymous and/or assume nothing will come back to them from their misbehavior for other reasons (e.g. physical distance between posters, lack of real interaction in each other's lives). So maybe there's more room for hope than has seemed to me to be the case. I'll think about it...



Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly Reply with quote
Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
Thanks for the clarification guys. Yah, I assumed that what he meant, it just sounded so absurd.

"Expressed bad behavior on this forum could lead to other misbehaviors such as: attempt to cheat in sporting events, in board games with children, in their school or workplace, on their spouses, etc."

I agree that the sentence above sounds absurd, Andreas. It's not at all what I wrote, of course.

Do folks want to continue the game of misstating what an opponent said to try to make him look foolish, or shall we move on now?...

Aaron wrote:
If it gives you hope Gerry I would say that bad behavior is on the internet is less indicitave of bad behavior in everyday life...

I hope you're right too, Aaron, but I fear you're not. It's generally been my experience away from the internet that if someone is willing to argue dishonestly (e.g. misstating his opponent's position to make it easier to argue against or ridicule) then he's willing to be dishonest in other ways, as well, and if he's willing to be dishonest about something small then he's also willing to do so about something big. I reckon different people are primarily motivated by different things, and to such people as I described in the last sentence honesty in whatever form may just be a pretty low priority; perhaps in these people what determines how honestly they behave is only a matter of whether they think they'll get caught or how serious the ramifications for being caught will be. But then that seems to suggest that they will behave differently here on the internet than in many other places, because here they can be anonymous and/or assume nothing will come back to them from their misbehavior for other reasons (e.g. physical distance between posters, lack of real interaction in each other's lives). So maybe there's more room for hope than has seemed to me to be the case. I'll think about it...

Aaron wrote:
... face to face, probably within two or three minutes we'd have reached a clear undertanding of what each of us meant as well as an amicable conclusion. On the forums it always seems to take alot longer time and alot more effort to reach an amicable conclusion and what might seem like a lie might just be a misunderstanding due to the fact that most people can't type as fast as they can think or speak.

I certainly agree with this. That's largely why I find it so confusing that many people don't try harder to say just what they mean and mean just what they say in their internet posts. Speaking plainly might not be as much "fun" for some folks, but when all parties in a conversation endeavor to do so it can sure make that conversation easier and more productive. Again, I reckon that may just be a pretty low priority for a number of people, compared to things like winning an argument, getting a laugh out of making fun of others, etc.

Chris, I have herped with KW (but only once) and have seen him socially in other settings as well (but only a few times). He seemed a nice enough and interesting person while we were together. I'm not happy that after I invited him into my home to take pictures of a number of my animals with the understanding that he would provide me with copies of said pictures, he never delivered said pictures or even responded to my numerous requests for them, though. It was like as soon as he got what he wanted from me he decided to ignore me, and his promise to me be damned. Not cool at all.


Ramble, ramble, puke, ramble, puke, wackadoodle, ramble puke.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 9:37 am 
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"speaking plainly may not be as much "fun" for some people" Are you freaking kidding me. Reread every post you have made on this thread. Its all bull schit rambling nonsense. you realy can't believe your own BS. I can't except that, no one is that stupid. Your just doing it to piss people off. Well you win.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 11:18 am 
gbin wrote:
I'm not happy that after I invited him into my home to take pictures of a number of my animals with the understanding that he would provide me with copies of said pictures, he never delivered said pictures or even responded to my numerous requests for them, though. It was like as soon as he got what he wanted from me he decided to ignore me, and his promise to me be damned. Not cool at all.
Talkin' smack about someone who isn't here to defend themselves, not cool, not cool at all. It perplexes me that people think it's okay to do that on the internet. You know, talk about people in a negative light when they're not around to defend themselves. Maybe they somehow absurdly think that bad behavior on the forums doesn't count as it would in the "real world"? As if they could talk behind people's backs in the real word and it would be okay. Perplexing, to put it mildly.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 3:19 pm 
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RobK wrote:
gbin wrote:
I'm not happy that after I invited him into my home to take pictures of a number of my animals with the understanding that he would provide me with copies of said pictures, he never delivered said pictures or even responded to my numerous requests for them, though. It was like as soon as he got what he wanted from me he decided to ignore me, and his promise to me be damned. Not cool at all.
Talkin' smack about someone who isn't here to defend themselves, not cool, not cool at all. It perplexes me that people think it's okay to do that on the internet. You know, talk about people in a negative light when they're not around to defend themselves. Maybe they somehow absurdly think that bad behavior on the forums doesn't count as it would in the "real world"? As if they could talk behind people's backs in the real word and it would be okay. Perplexing, to put it mildly.

Reaching way beyond reason to put down someone you don't like and hopefully score a foolish point against him, Rob? I'd say that's "not cool, not cool at all."

I didn't use KW's name.

An internet forum that KW has long frequented is hardly behind his back.

I did contact KW numerous times both publicly and privately to ask him directly to live up to his word, and he never bothered to respond.

While talking with mutual friends/acquaintances, I did ask them to tell KW to get back to me about it, and he never bothered to respond to those attempts, either.

KW still hasn't lived up to his word.

I still said - and still think - good things about KW in other respects.

This particular pile of BS, like so many you guys have been trying to heft my way just because I dared to point out that putting out AC without the property owner's/manager's permission is illegal slob hunting with potential to hurt the herping community as a whole, is clearly sticking to you rather than me. (Who exactly is overreacting, again? :roll: If "the truth hurts," as they say, I guess it must really be stinging y'all to make you act out this way.) Next bogus attempt?...

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 3:45 pm 

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Quote:
This particular pile of BS, like so many you guys have been trying to heft my way just because I dared to point out that putting out AC without the property owner's/manager's permission is illegal slob hunting with potential to hurt the herping community as a whole, is clearly sticking to you rather than me. (Who exactly is overreacting, again? :roll: If "the truth hurts," as they say, I guess it must really be stinging y'all to make you act out this way.) Next bogus attempt?...


Yet still more jokes from the great GB!

"just because I dared to point out...."

Nah, that's not what you "Just" did. You did so much more. Had you SIMPLY done that, and argued without belittling and insulting from the very onset of the thread, MAYBE you would have been more well received. Unfortunately, that's the not the case and ANOTHER reason why you make it so easy to say WACKADOODLE!

You still funny man, you make me laugh long time. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 4:15 pm 
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gbin wrote:
I still said - and still think - good things about KW in other respects.

Heck, now that I think about it, I even still manage to think - and say - at least some good things about Brad in spite of the way he so often acts out on these message boards, too. Maybe I am stupid as you suggest, Mike...

:lol:

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 4:17 pm 

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gbin wrote:
gbin wrote:
I still said - and still think - good things about KW in other respects.

Heck, now that I think about it, I even still manage to think - and say - at least some good things about Brad in spite of the way he so often acts out on these message boards, too. Maybe I am stupid as you suggest, Mike...

:lol:

Gerry


These things you bring up have NOTHING to do with the rest of what is going on in this thread. You are only trying to deflect and redirect per the usual.

WACKADOODLE!


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 4:30 pm 

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Brad Alexander wrote:
Quote:
This particular pile of BS, like so many you guys have been trying to heft my way just because I dared to point out that putting out AC without the property owner's/manager's permission is illegal slob hunting with potential to hurt the herping community as a whole, is clearly sticking to you rather than me. (Who exactly is overreacting, again? :roll: If "the truth hurts," as they say, I guess it must really be stinging y'all to make you act out this way.) Next bogus attempt?...


Yet still more jokes from the great GB!

"just because I dared to point out...."

Nah, that's not what you "Just" did. You did so much more. Had you SIMPLY done that, and argued without belittling and insulting from the very onset of the thread, MAYBE you would have been more well received. Unfortunately, that's the not the case and ANOTHER reason why you make it so easy to say WACKADOODLE!

It is interesting how people often hear what they want to hear or read into what another has posted based on their opinion of the person or the topic at hand. None of us react in an non-bias fashion but some certainly go far further than others. I have read most of the posts in this thread. Not proud of that but I like train wrecks too. :D I do not recall these belittling and insulting points that Gerry supposedly made from the onset of this thread. Slob may have been a poor word choice but certainly there was no pattern. Similarly, I did not take Patrick's comment about Aaron's post being myopic as being anything more than the point Aaron made was myopic, which it was. It certainly was not calling Aaron myopic as has been suggested since. There has been a good share of belittling and insulting comments made in this thread though by far, if at all, they were not made by Gerry or Patrick.

Quote:
That's largely why I find it so confusing that many people don't try harder to say just what they mean and mean just what they say in their internet posts.

There does seem to be a separation in how much clarity there is in some posts and how much clarification some seek in what others post, versus just reading into it. Problem with reading into it is that a person's bias then fills in the gaps of intentions which rarely leads to a civil outcome. The problem exists even when somebody means just what they have posted since implied insults are so easy to manifest when one's bias leads them to question intent. Further, what some might consider rambling, is just another's attempt to clarify what was really posted.

In the end one can usually decipher who is truly winning a debate by simply looking for who is making the personal attacks. That person is usually losing twice since besides losing the point at hand, they have lowered their standards and often the view others have of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 5:44 pm 
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Rick Staub wrote:
There does seem to be a separation in how much clarity there is in some posts and how much clarification some seek in what others post, versus just reading into it. Problem with reading into it is that a person's bias then fills in the gaps of intentions which rarely leads to a civil outcome. The problem exists even when somebody means just what they have posted since implied insults are so easy to manifest when one's bias leads them to question intent. Further, what some might consider rambling, is just another's attempt to clarify what was really posted.

At the risk of redirecting this thread further... :twisted:

I think you stuffed an awful lot of this thread and many other overlong threads into a nutshell there, Rick. :thumb: So is there any solution? In my own case, for example, it's hard for me to imagine that folks who are predisposed to misunderstand my posts (for whatever reason) are going to read me any more accurately if I write less. And (before you get your hopes up, Brad :P ) I'm not about to not write at all where I believe I have something worthwhile to contribute. Nor is it in my nature to talk down to people by searching for easy-reader or impossibly inoffensive words rather than simply the most accurate words I can think of to use in communicating with them. (I still haven't heard anyone suggest an equally apt and succinct term as "slob hunter," by the way. ;) ) I'm game to try anything I can still view as open and honest communication, but I don't really see much point in anything less.

Plus, it seems to me that a big part of the problem is that those few real miscreants who are willing to do whatever they can think of to stop open and honest communication (because they recognize they're on the losing side of a debate, for example) have a much easier task than those who are simply trying to engage in such communication. That is, it's a lot easier to confuse than it is to clarify.

Genuinely hoping that someone has suggestions that I feel I can use...

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 6:14 pm 

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Rick you don't think calling into question the monogomy of somebodies relationship with their spouse is an insult? Based solely on the fact that the guy may have lied in an arguement on the internet. IMO such a suggestion, that one might be capable of cheating on one's wife, is literally the absolute worst insult I have ever heard on any internet forum in my entire life.

Quote:
gbin: Don't worry, Mike, it's pretty hard even for people who actually know me to offend me, let alone folks who are essentially strangers to me except through their posts to an internet message board. I am often perplexed, though, by how ready some people here are to abandon open, honest discourse for more underhanded means of persuasion when they realize that they're on the losing side of a debate. I sometimes wonder, do these same people attempt to cheat in sporting events, in board games with children, in their school or workplace, on their spouses, etc. as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 6:27 pm 

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Brad said this about gbin:
Quote:
He spins off in so many different directions and muddies up the waters with so much BS only hoping that you are confused in the process. He'll attach BS after BS from point A to C then back to B then all of sudden jump on over to Z and claim you have reading comprehension issues.


IMHO Brad's description is absolutly spot on. The way in which gbin wove extramarital affiars into a discussion about AC is a perfect example. Aside from the fact that it is unquestionably an insult to whomever it's directed, it is simply bizarre subject matter to include in ANY post on this forum. Totally inappropriate on so many levels.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 6:33 pm 
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Fundad wrote:
Quote:
Did you find anything last night Brian?


Just some Misc stuff.. 2 glossies, 2 shovelnose, 3 Leafnose, and a ton of laughs..

its pretty cold down this way..



Where is "down this way"? I had a diverse Mojave roadcruise on Friday night - hiked a gopher snake at dusk, then hit the road and saw a leafnose, couple longnoses, anerythristic shovelnose, sidewinder, glossy, and speck. I was taking a guy on his first roadcruise ever too - I think he's good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 6:46 pm 
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Aaron wrote:
Rick you don't think calling into question the monogomy of somebodies relationship with their spouse is an insult?...

It's obvious that you consider it an insult, Aaron, and also that your opinion is all that really matters to you. So why drag Rick or anyone else into it?

For the record, "insult" speaks to the intent of the person in question, specifically the intent to offend. You can make all of the declarations you wish about my intent, but that doesn't make them so. I know, and I feel sure that most readers realize, that I was expressing a doubt that I honestly have. The level of dishonesty I see employed by certain people on these message boards never ceases to shock me and make me wonder how pervasive it is in the rest of their lives. Mind you, I wasn't worried about offending them, but I wasn't trying for it, either.

Aaron wrote:
... IMO such a suggestion, that one might be capable of cheating on one's wife, is literally the absolute worst insult I have ever heard on any internet forum in my entire life.

Aside from the little matter of my intent... If your statement above were true then you'd have led an outrageously sheltered life, given both how common infidelity actually is and how contentious things actually tend to get in some internet forums (including this one). I suspect rather that this is just another of your statements "designed to exaggerate or dramatize" and so prompt ridicule of your opponent. You remember, don't you? Like this?...

Aaron wrote:
... I just have this awesome vision right now of earthquakes, thunder, lightning, explosions, lasers, zombies and teradactyls going off in the backround as a certain somebody types away at the keyboard. Crash, boom, urrrrrgh*, kee-haw**(clickity, clickity, clickity...)!

* Zombie noise.
** Teradactyl noise.

Intent seems a little clearer there, doesn't it? :lol:

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 7:27 pm 
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I make a point and rather than responding to what I say you come out with more BS. Stooping to name calling and personal insult has nothing to do with fear of loosing an argument but frustration of dealing with someone that will never adress a statement directed towards him and fills a thread with more retarded bull schit.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 7:51 pm 

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WACKADOODLE!


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 7:59 pm 

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OK, now this thread is boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 8:02 pm 
gbin wrote:
Reaching way beyond reason to put down someone you don't like and hopefully score a foolish point against him, Rob? I'd say that's "not cool, not cool at all."
If you're implying that I don't like you, that's foolish, I don't even know you. This has nothing to do with me liking or disliking you.

Quote:
I didn't use KW's name. An internet forum that KW has long frequented is hardly behind his back.
Who cares if you used his real name? Most of the posters on this thread know his real name and are aware he's been MIA for sometime now (including you). Look, it's no different than KW frequenting a restaurant that you happened to be in one evening. Someone mentions his name at the table and you babble on about an incident you had with him and it ends up making him look bad. Someone confronts you later and you say, "It’s a restaurant that KW has long frequented, that's hardly behind his back."

Quote:
I did contact KW numerous times both publicly and privately to ask him directly to live up to his word, and he never bothered to respond.While talking with mutual friends/acquaintances, I did ask them to tell KW to get back to me about it, and he never bothered to respond to those attempts, either. KW still hasn't lived up to his word.
Telling me more details about a private situation between you and KW doesn't justify posting it on the internet for all to read.

Quote:
This particular pile of BS, like so many you guys have been trying to heft my way just because I dared to point out that putting out AC without the property owner's/manager's permission is illegal slob hunting with potential to hurt the herping community as a whole, is clearly sticking to you rather than me. (Who exactly is overreacting, again? :roll: If "the truth hurts," as they say, I guess it must really be stinging y'all to make you act out this way.) Next bogus attempt?...
Pile of BS? I didn't mention anything about AC, permission, or slob hunting. It amazes me how ready some people here are to abandon open, honest discourse for more underhanded means of persuasion when they realize that they're on the losing side of a debate. Makes wonder if they would resort to that in real life?


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 4th, 2010, 8:23 pm 
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[quote="Aaron"]WACKADOODLE![/quote

Hahahahaha


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 12:07 am 

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First, I did not enter this thread to choose sides. I have friends on both sides. I posted simply because it was difficult to see people I know and respect acting completely out of character. Some of these people solely entered this discussion to attack Gerry. They do not even hunt AC so the idea that they would be offended by his slob hunter comment is silly. For the record, lazy hunter is a more apt description for using AC. We all do it to some extent because we are too lazy to try and search without the crutch, mainly because our success rate would plummet. I am sure FR would say this is simply because we do not understand the snakes, which is probably true to an extent.

Aaron -- I believe the post you quoted of Gerry's was in response to you stating that you believed most posters are different in person than how they represent themselves on the forum. Taken out of this context Gerry's post would be insulting, but as a response to your point it was not directed at anyone and was merely a counter to your point of view. At this point I could assume that you intentionally posted his quote out of context to sway my opinion, but that would be presumptuous of your intent. To further support my previous post, you can see how this might further cascade into another lengthy back and forth where we presume each other is acting maliciously or not in good faith.

Mike -- not sure where your issue is. You asked a question and got a response but seem infuriated that Gerry did not consult a judge or the Bar Association before replying. Now you are just piling on. So be it.

Mike Waters wrote:
Brad, your negative attitude is unbecoming.

Maybe you should follow your own words.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 12:35 am 
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Take your personal matters to private messaging or email.

scott


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 3:45 am 
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Jonathan Wrote
Quote:
Where is "down this way"?


Not up that way...!!! :D :thumb: Hence the cold.. :lol:


Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 10:17 am 
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Rick Staub wrote:
For the record, lazy hunter is a more apt description for using AC. for using AC. We all do it to some extent because we are too lazy to try and search without the crutch, mainly because our success rate would plummet.


I respectfully disagree with this statement. IMO using AC is far from lazy and is actually quite labor intensive and time consuming. Securing permission to create AC sites on public or private properties in general requires much effort. Acquiring the materials takes time and energy as well not to mention what it takes to actually lay out the AC. Dragging roofing tin, boards and billboard signs up and down ridges is not akin to being lazy. What many fail to realize is its not about the searching but rather the finding. In the end its all about achieving the desired results.

I have heard the same argument made about trapping as a lazy method to locate herps. Anyone that has spent days hammering stakes on hundreds of feet of silt fencing would have a different opinion.

Phil


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 10:31 am 

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ROTFLMAO! I wanna thank all the protagonists on this thread for a great laugh. I needed that. I just discovered this. Responding to Gerry is like playing whack-a-mole isn't it.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 12:03 pm 
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As tense as this place can be, right or wrong, this is what makes FHF so great. Being a "freedom-loving" American, Allan, welcome to one of the few places you know of that is not run with an agenda. I guarantee it or your money back. :) Oh, wait, this is a free public forum......disregard.

All I ask is for some civility. Sure, that does not happen all the time, but FHF is quite PROUD of it's members and their approach. That is why I ask to keep the personal stuff in email or PM. I understand that tempers flare, but we need to remember that FHF is awesome because of continual movement in it's topics, not because of jabs and insults.

It would be easy, as the admin, to be all over every single user for every single thing they post. But that is not FHF. People who resent this forum do so because they WANT me to unfair or bias in one direction or the other. I won't do it, and it drives them crazy. I'm glad. :)

All I ask is that even when things get hot on the forum, we keep in mind that this place is alive and well because of the diversity in field herping and viewpoints.

OR we could make it like one of those "town hall meetings" that politicians have where they are talking entirely to like-minded constituents, rather than an open discussion with many viewpoints. Yeah, that would be great, one view......all the time.

thanks,
scott


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 12:13 pm 
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Scott Waters wrote:
Yeah, that would be great, one view......all the time.


Well, as long as it's MY view ... 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 12:57 pm 

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Phil -- Certainly hunting via AC can take some effort. my comments were not to suggest there is no effort involved. I guess minimal effort if you let someone else set up the AC lines and don't bother with permission. :D :D My view is likewise biased by the species that I have experience with here in Calif. For L getula in Calif, the amount of effort to find 20 snakes without AC would be exponentially more time consuming than that required even if you had to set up the AC lines. If you were to incorporate the time you spent setting up the AC lines into your capture rate (person/hr per snake) for your studies, do you really think the effort to carry and place the AC would increase the time per snake found past what it would take you if you did not use AC?


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PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 1:39 pm 
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Rick Staub wrote:
If you were to incorporate the time you spent setting up the AC lines into your capture rate (person/hr per snake) for your studies, do you really think the effort to carry and place the AC would increase the time per snake found past what it would take you if you did not use AC?


This is a great question Rick. I believe that even taking into account the amount of time it takes to create AC sites the rate of capture/ observation is far greater than if we were relying upon finding snakes where there was no AC to check. The initial investment of time is on the front end and the dividends are paid back for many years to come. We are able to further discount the time expenditure by developing sites during the winter months when our snakes are not active. All the same, making these AC sites does require effort. Some are easier than others and at times we will go to great lengths to place materials in what we believe to be the most advantageous situation.

Phil


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 3:01 pm 
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Rick Staub wrote:
... For the record, lazy hunter is a more apt description for using AC...

Before anyone backslides ;) , let me emphasize again that my comments pertain to the placing of AC without the landowner's/manager's permission, not the use of AC in general...

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree as well, Rick. The concern that has been driving my commentary throughout this thread is that the herp hunters in question are leaving behind them what non-herping outdoor enthusiasts and regulating authorities reasonably view as an illegal mess, and that this likely has negative repercussions for the whole herping community. "Lazy hunter" might (or might not, per Phil) do a fine job of describing their motivation, but I've been more concerned with describing their effect - and "slob hunter" seems most apt and succinct for that purpose.

On y'all's discussion, Rick and Phil, I haven't set out any AC for herps but I have done a lot of fish and especially mammal trapping. (How close the parallel is, I'm not sure.) Trapping definitely gets your hands on more animals per unit time, but not necessarily per unit effort - as it can definitely be a lot of hard work. Even geez-I-wish-I'd-robbed-a-bank-and-gotten-thrown-in-prison-rather-than-committing-to-this-study levels of hard work! :shock: That's why the only place I've felt comfortable applying "lazy" in this whole thread is when referring to people who seem to be pretending that they don't know that it is possible to get permission to set out AC per Chris, Fundad and ICH, and Phil.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 5:20 pm 
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I have never put out boards n private property because I am too lazy to track down the landowner who will likely laugh at me when I suggest setting up a board line on his property. I have however set out boards on blm land where legality is in question. It is not easy carrying several large sheets of plywood into areas off the beaten path where they will hopefuly not be discovered by other herpers or any outdoorsman for that matter. I find more snakes road cruising then under my boards. Likely cause I don't live in riverside but I think if anyone is lazy its these road cruisers. Agreed this thread may have gotten a bit out of hand and if anyone was truly offended I do apologize. In all reality Gerry and I and everyone else for that matter would probably get along great sitting next to each other holding fishing poles or hiking the mountains looking for snakes. I guess we all just have to learn to just agree to disagree.


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PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 6:04 pm 

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Rick; that would probably depend on the species you're looking for too wouldn't it? I mean, I doubt A/C would help me much with things like Masticophis (which I already find regularly) or pits or crots, but for things like Diadophis or Tantilla or whatever, maybe it would. Probably Lampropeltis too.

I've got no qualms about AC *provided there is permission.* Since I go mostly into park land me setting up such things without official sanction would be bad--short jail time would be possible and I don't like the idea of jail. And if it was on private land...well, it'd probably get my permission to be there revoked. And I'm not going on private land without permission because in Texas, we own and use guns! But putting stuff out on someone else's land is not OK. It's not your property you don't have the right to modify it for the sake of your hobby, unless they say you can.


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 6:18 pm 
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How many "Outdoor Enthusiasts" would actually connect AC to Herpers, IF they know nothing about herping? Wouldn't they just consider it Illegal Dumping?

Andreas.....


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 Post subject: Re: Greed is sooooo ugly
PostPosted: July 5th, 2010, 6:44 pm 
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Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
How many "Outdoor Enthusiasts" would actually connect AC to Herpers, IF they know nothing about herping? Wouldn't they just consider it Illegal Dumping?

I've no experience with AC in CA, but in FL I've encountered a number of non-herping outdoor enthusiasts who made a connection - even extending it way beyond what was reasonable - and complained quite bitterly about snake hunters stripping the bark off of trees in national forest; some of them were pretty surprised to then find out that I'm a snake hunter who deplores the practice, as they figured we all must do it. I reckon there are a lot more stripped trees in FL than there are board lines in CA, though.

You didn't ask about it, Andreas, but I'll point out anyway that lots (most? all?) of us believe that regulating authorities at least occasionally monitor these message boards, in which case they're quite capable of making the connection. And to maybe balance out the above, I suspect CA herpers probably have more problems with regulating authorities than do FL herpers.

Gerry


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