Greed is sooooo ugly

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by chris_mcmartin » July 1st, 2010, 4:10 am

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:Chris, honestly, that simply would not fly in most areas of Southern California, at least not in Ventura or Los Angeles Counties.
Is your pessimism based on public land, or private land?

For public land, I'm optimistic. Sure, I had an "in" with my most recent project which certainly helped get the ball rolling. However, I won't be in the position I'm in forever, and what I'm doing is laying the groundwork for other folks in the local herp society to continue the survey annually. The other aspect is that I'm building a small portfolio of prior work which will help with the "street cred" when trying to work with new projects and new agencies.

I think the larger problem is private land for the reason I already mentioned. Texas is (depending on which source you cite) 95% privately-owned, and many landowners get skittish when allowing "scientists," amateur or otherwise, onto their land. Their rationale is that they don't want to be told they can't plant crop X, or graze area Y, etc. because it might harm an endangered fungus or other species. Granted, it seems like lately the vibe is more accommodating, perhaps because in general these fears haven't been realized.

The other side of the coin is that some folks will say, "Sure, you can herp my land, but I want you to remove every snake you find." Uh, okay.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brad Alexander » July 1st, 2010, 6:31 am

For the record...

I would like to encourage everyone to place AC in the field. Gerry and others that stick their nose up at it do not live in a realistic world. If you want to do it, don't ask to do so, especially on public land. Just place it off the beaten path and out of the way. It is not going to hurt a damn thing and you are not going to convince SOME people otherwise. So just go about your business and forget about the jerks that think everything is black and white. These people have some sort of mental disorder and seem to be caught up in some sort of utopian dream land.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan » July 1st, 2010, 6:35 am

Brad Alexander wrote:For the record...

I would like to encourage everyone to place AC in the field. Gerry and others that stick their nose up at it do not live in a realistic world. If you want to do it, don't ask to do so, especially on public land. Just place it off the beaten path and out of the way. It is not going to hurt a damn thing and you are not going to convince SOME people otherwise. So just go about your business and forget about the jerks that think everything is black and white. These people have some sort of mental disorder and seem to be caught up in some sort of utopian dream land.

I don't think this board is the place to encourage people to do illegal things. I don't agree with everything Gerry said (and PM'd him to vent some of these differences more strongly than I felt appropriate to do publicly), but encouraging people to not ask permission is irresponsible.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg » July 1st, 2010, 6:48 am

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
Chris, honestly, that simply would not fly in most areas of Southern California, at least not in Ventura or Los Angeles Counties.


Is your pessimism based on public land, or private land?

For public land, I'm optimistic. Sure, I had an "in" with my most recent project which certainly helped get the ball rolling. However, I won't be in the position I'm in forever, and what I'm doing is laying the groundwork for other folks in the local herp society to continue the survey annually. The other aspect is that I'm building a small portfolio of prior work which will help with the "street cred" when trying to work with new projects and new agencies.

I think the larger problem is private land for the reason I already mentioned. Texas is (depending on which source you cite) 95% privately-owned, and many landowners get skittish when allowing "scientists," amateur or otherwise, onto their land. Their rationale is that they don't want to be told they can't plant crop X, or graze area Y, etc. because it might harm an endangered fungus or other species. Granted, it seems like lately the vibe is more accommodating, perhaps because in general these fears haven't been realized.

The other side of the coin is that some folks will say, "Sure, you can herp my land, but I want you to remove every snake you find." Uh, okay.
Chris, It's not pessimisim. There is already plenty of AC currently scattered throughout this whole area. The majority of which was done many, many years ago. It is simply not a priority of mine to request and develope new "legal" AC sites. Is the data I collect from pre-existing "illegal" AC spots no good?


Andreas....

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan » July 1st, 2010, 6:58 am

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
Chris, honestly, that simply would not fly in most areas of Southern California, at least not in Ventura or Los Angeles Counties.


Is your pessimism based on public land, or private land?
Chris, It's not pessimisim. There is already plenty of AC currently scattered throughout this whole area. The majority of which was done many, many years ago. It is simply not a priority of mine to request and develope new "legal" AC sites. Is the data I collect from pre-existing "illegal" AC spots no good?
I haven't seen anyone say anything like that - even Gerry said that he flipped pre-existing AC. Chris was addressing your "that simply would not fly" statement about getting legal approval for placing AC, which appeared to be clearly pessimistic and had nothing to do with whether or not you use pre-existing AC.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 1st, 2010, 7:17 am

Aaron wrote:Gerry I have to say I think it's way off base to compare laying AC out to habitat damage. Just because they are both against the law doesn't mean they are equally harmful. About the only thing AC might harm is the sensibilities of a few of the people who happen to stumble upon it and it doesn't harm the herps at all. Habitat damage not only offends the sensibilities but, IMHO, it has potential to harm individual herps as well. I also think it may reduce the carrying capacity of some locations.
Ah, the joys of myopia. :-)

Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg » July 1st, 2010, 7:31 am

I haven't seen anyone say anything like that - even Gerry said that he flipped pre-existing AC. Chris was addressing your "that simply would not fly" statement about getting legal approval for placing AC, which appeared to be clearly pessimistic and had nothing to do with whether or not you use pre-existing AC.
Gerry used Chris AC development approach as a sort of "model" for which AC should be distributed by amateur herpers. I found that model to be unrealistic. Especially in this area. Is that Pessimistic? Does it even matter?


Andreas

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 1st, 2010, 7:42 am

In this discussion we all seem to be operating under the assumption that AC is litter. I think we make this assumption because we know that there are some people who, if they saw us laying it out, would think we were dumping trash. But AC is not trash, it has a purpose and it also usually consists of only flat pieces of wood and tin, not the mishmash of items usually found in trash.
So is it really litter? Is it illegal grading if you flatten a patch of ground on which to set up a tent is that considered illegal grading?

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan » July 1st, 2010, 7:47 am

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
I haven't seen anyone say anything like that - even Gerry said that he flipped pre-existing AC. Chris was addressing your "that simply would not fly" statement about getting legal approval for placing AC, which appeared to be clearly pessimistic and had nothing to do with whether or not you use pre-existing AC.
Gerry used Chris AC development approach as a sort of "model" for which AC should be distributed by amateur herpers. I found that model to be unrealistic. Especially in this area. Is that Pessimistic? Does it even matter?
I could be mistaken, but I think people like the Kentucky guys have used this model with great frequency and a lot of success, and I know with certainty that many persons have used it to a smaller degree, including NAFHA members in SoCal. Your claim that it would be unrealistic has already been proven wrong. Even in this area, it seems to be a claim that you have not tested adequately yourself and is overly pessimistic when considering the positive experiences that others have had.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan » July 1st, 2010, 7:49 am

Aaron wrote:In this discussion we all seem to be operating under the assumption that AC is litter. I think we make this assumption because we know that there are some people who, if they saw us laying it out, would think we were dumping trash. But AC is not trash, it has a purpose and it also usually consists of only flat pieces of wood and tin, not the mishmash of items usually found in trash.
So is it really litter? Is it illegal grading if you flatten a patch of ground on which to set up a tent is that considered illegal grading?
In the legal sense, it is definitely litter if you place it without the permission of the landowner/land manager. In the practical sense, I agree with you that it has a purpose, a nature, and a care of placement that make it different from typical litter, though some (but only some) of the typical negative effects of litter may still apply.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 1st, 2010, 7:53 am

Brad Alexander wrote:For the record...

I would like to encourage everyone to place AC in the field. Gerry and others that stick their nose up at it do not live in a realistic world. If you want to do it, don't ask to do so, especially on public land. Just place it off the beaten path and out of the way. It is not going to hurt a damn thing and you are not going to convince SOME people otherwise. So just go about your business and forget about the jerks that think everything is black and white. These people have some sort of mental disorder and seem to be caught up in some sort of utopian dream land.
You know, even if AC doesn't hurt anything (which is likely true in some cases, but certainly -isn't- true universally), this is a seriously counter-productive attitude, and not just from the point of view of portraying herpers in a bad light. We already have plenty of jerks who feel free to disregard the rules when they don't think they'll do any harm; occasionally they happen to be right, but most of the time they're wrong & just screw things up for the rest of us. Don't encourage them.

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Daryl Eby » July 1st, 2010, 7:59 am

Here's a crazy idea ...

How about collecting trash while herping dump sites?

Imagine going out to a dump site with an empty truck and trailer and leaving the area with a camera full of vouchers, with the truck trailer full of garbage. and with the most useful cover pieces rearranged around the now much less polluted dump site. Beats the heck out of driving out to a pristine area with a truck load of boards and hiding them.

Of course, governmental bureaucracy might get in the way, but it would make sense to partner with the land owners/manager to pick up trash while rearranging useful cover items and searching for herps in the process. You could then go back from time to time to survey the board lines in the clean-up areas while picking up additional garbage and expanding your clean-up zone and board lines. It's likely that the managers of public land could even arrange approval for you to dump the removed trash at a legal dump site at no charge.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brad Alexander » July 1st, 2010, 8:05 am

jonathan wrote: I don't think this board is the place to encourage people to do illegal things. I don't agree with everything Gerry said (and PM'd him to vent some of these differences more strongly than I felt appropriate to do publicly), but encouraging people to not ask permission is irresponsible.
Hey Johnny boy... Guess what? I don't give a crap! So what? Since YOU think this way, we all should? Whatever man! You and others are doing exactly what you always do. You are making mountains out of mole hills. Just chill out. I'm all for being a responsible person and taking care of our home (earth), but sometimes you guys get to splitting hairs that are just freaking retarded, legalistic BS. Then when you have something worthy to bitch and moan about, it's hard to respect it, since you and people like Gerry bitch and moan about every damn little thing you can.

If you want to bitch about what is illegal and not, where do we draw the line? Do you speed? Then shut the hell up about legalism and continue your rant in another direction. Because if you do ONE little thing that is illegal, you are being a hypocrite by making the legal issue your focal point. However, I do not think that placing AC as being legal or not is yours or GB's agenda. That is simply a means from which to attack it.

Oh yeah, legally, it will take me about 14 hours to get to El Paso. However, I intend on doing it in 12. One major reason is because trying to drive the speed limit on I-10 the whole way will likely get me killed since the flow of traffic is typically 10+ over (in some areas much more). Do you want to preach to me about that now too?

You freaking buttwholes just need to get off your damn high horses and leave people the hell alone. It's just getting stupid how much some of you want to control others. I'm seriously sick of it. Freaking bunch of cry babies.

Patrick -

Cry me a river!

Daryl -

That is an excellent suggestion. In fact, me and my family have done it on multiple occasions (picked up trash while in the field).

The big picture you mention of really picking up a lot of crap with a truck is an excellent idea. Unfortunately, you will quickly become exceedingly frustrated when you come back and find your work was done in vein since some jerk came in right behind you and dumped another load for you to pick up.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 1st, 2010, 8:11 am

Jonathan: In the legal sense, it is definitely litter...
Do you have any cases where a herper was cited, fought it and lost in court? No offense but if you don't then that is just your opinion. Which was kinda my point, we all have opinions but who's is right?

Even if you do, it would depend on how narrowly the case could be interpreted.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Daryl Eby » July 1st, 2010, 8:13 am

Brad Alexander wrote:Daryl -

That is an excellent suggestion. In fact, me and my family have done it on multiple occasions (picked up trash while in the field).
Thanks for doing that! I've picked up a few things here and there while hiking, but haven't herped (much less cleaned-up) dump sites since I was a kid.
The big picture you mention of really picking up a lot of crap with a truck is an excellent idea. Unfortunately, you will quickly become exceedingly frustrated when you come back and find your work was done in vein since some jerk came in right behind you and dumped another load for you to pick up.
Sadly, you are probably right in many cases. But the trash you removed would still be removed. We'll never solve the litter problem, but we could improve things -at least a little. In the process, we could also improve our image and our relations with public land managers.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan » July 1st, 2010, 8:56 am

Brad Alexander wrote:
jonathan wrote: I don't think this board is the place to encourage people to do illegal things. I don't agree with everything Gerry said (and PM'd him to vent some of these differences more strongly than I felt appropriate to do publicly), but encouraging people to not ask permission is irresponsible.
Hey Johnny boy... Guess what? I don't give a crap! So what? Since YOU think this way, we all should? Whatever man! You and others are doing exactly what you always do. You are making mountains out of mole hills. Just chill out. I'm all for being a responsible person and taking care of our home (earth), but sometimes you guys get to splitting hairs that are just freaking retarded, legalistic BS. Then when you have something worthy to bitch and moan about, it's hard to respect it, since you and people like Gerry bitch and moan about every damn little thing you can.
Brad, I don't think anything you're saying here is in line with my comments. Where have I been making a mountain out of a molehill? Point out the post. I don't know what your special issue with me is. As JJ once asked - did I steal your salamander? Try looking at my posts and figuring out where I "bitch and moan" about every damn little thing I can.

I also don't know why you're grouping me with Gerry here. I don't think that placing boardlines is really the same thing as littering. I've said that both on the board and in a PM to Gerry. I just think that using this board to publicly encourage herpers to do it without permission is irresponsible - it's not necessary and it makes us look bad. I'm not the only one who thinks that way. And I just expressed that as my own opinion - I don't go around telling people off every time they express an opinion that's different than mine.


Brad Alexander wrote:If you want to bitch about what is illegal and not, where do we draw the line? Do you speed? Then shut the hell up about legalism and continue your rant in another direction. Because if you do ONE little thing that is illegal, you are being a hypocrite by making the legal issue your focal point. However, I do not think that placing AC as being legal or not is yours or GB's agenda. That is simply a means from which to attack it.
So, what's my "agenda" about placing AC? Talk to anyone who knows me, or take any post that I've ever made on this board, and try and tell me where you get this idea that I have any agenda about placing AC at all.

And whether or not I do speed, I certainly don't go around encouraging other people to speed, especially not on a public forum.


Brad Alexander wrote:You freaking buttwholes just need to get off your damn high horses and leave people the hell alone. It's just getting stupid how much some of you want to control others. I'm seriously sick of it. Freaking bunch of cry babies.
Apparently, it's only you who has the right to do that, eh? I didn't try to control anyone - I just expressed my own opinion about what I think. You're the one who is going off on people and telling them what they need to do.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 1st, 2010, 9:06 am

Brad Alexander wrote:If you want to bitch about what is illegal and not, where do we draw the line? Do you speed? Then shut the hell up about legalism and continue your rant in another direction. Because if you do ONE little thing that is illegal, you are being a hypocrite by making the legal issue your focal point. However, I do not think that placing AC as being legal or not is yours or GB's agenda. That is simply a means from which to attack it.
Ah, the good old slippery slope fallacy. So let's just ride that slope the whole way and say that breaking a speed limit is murder*.

Jonathan's also got a good point--breaking laws & encouraging others to do so are different things.
Oh yeah, legally, it will take me about 14 hours to get to El Paso. However, I intend on doing it in 12. One major reason is because trying to drive the speed limit on I-10 the whole way will likely get me killed since the flow of traffic is typically 10+ over (in some areas much more). Do you want to preach to me about that now too?
Sorry man, but that's BS. I've driven that stretch of I-10 several times, and the average speed most of the way is usually pretty close to the speed limit, or even slightly under it. I usually drive right about at speed limit on interstates**, actually, still pass a decent number of people on I-10, & haven't died yet.
Patrick -

Cry me a river!
Naw, you already have plenty of rivers in California.

Patrick

* Which, on rare occasions, it actually is...

** Mostly for reasons having to do with gas mileage and avoiding unnecessary stress on the car.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by chris_mcmartin » July 1st, 2010, 9:16 am

Brad Alexander wrote:I'm all for being a responsible person and taking care of our home (earth), but sometimes you guys get to splitting hairs that are just freaking retarded, legalistic BS.
If that "freaking retarded, legalistic BS" is what enables me to 1) continue to herp in places where I've previously had success and/or 2) open up new areas to herping, then I'm going to keep doing it.

Perhaps a better distinction between "litter" and "AC" can be made with my jugline suggestion: label cover boards/tin with a contact number and explanation of purpose. Perhaps a NAFHA logo and web site could be affixed to each one...

paalexan wrote:Ah, the joys of myopia.

Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...
Are there any AC strategies which benefit ferns? :lol:

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by chad ks » July 1st, 2010, 9:26 am

Ah, the good old slippery slope fallacy. So let's just ride that slope the whole way and say that breaking a speed limit is murder*.
fyi, this actually was not a slippery slope fallacy as you claimed it was.

Brad said:
f you want to bitch about what is illegal and not, where do we draw the line? Do you speed? Then shut the hell up about legalism and continue your rant in another direction. Because if you do ONE little thing that is illegal, you are being a hypocrite by making the legal issue your focal point. However, I do not think that placing AC as being legal or not is yours or GB's agenda. That is simply a means from which to attack it.
Brad mentioned that someone is being contradictory by taking a "letter of the law" stance and then preaching it while actually living by a "spirit of the law" interpretation. You seem to think that he is claiming that A leads to B which leads to C....and all the way to Z, which he clearly is not.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Rick Staub » July 1st, 2010, 10:16 am

Brad Alexander wrote:
jonathan wrote: I don't think this board is the place to encourage people to do illegal things. I don't agree with everything Gerry said (and PM'd him to vent some of these differences more strongly than I felt appropriate to do publicly), but encouraging people to not ask permission is irresponsible.
Hey Johnny boy... Guess what? I don't give a crap! So what? Since YOU think this way, we all should? Whatever man! You and others are doing exactly what you always do. You are making mountains out of mole hills. Just chill out. I'm all for being a responsible person and taking care of our home (earth), but sometimes you guys get to splitting hairs that are just freaking retarded, legalistic BS. Then when you have something worthy to bitch and moan about, it's hard to respect it, since you and people like Gerry bitch and moan about every damn little thing you can.

If you want to bitch about what is illegal and not, where do we draw the line? Do you speed? Then shut the hell up about legalism and continue your rant in another direction. Because if you do ONE little thing that is illegal, you are being a hypocrite by making the legal issue your focal point. However, I do not think that placing AC as being legal or not is yours or GB's agenda. That is simply a means from which to attack it.

Oh yeah, legally, it will take me about 14 hours to get to El Paso. However, I intend on doing it in 12. One major reason is because trying to drive the speed limit on I-10 the whole way will likely get me killed since the flow of traffic is typically 10+ over (in some areas much more). Do you want to preach to me about that now too?

You freaking buttwholes just need to get off your damn high horses and leave people the hell alone. It's just getting stupid how much some of you want to control others. I'm seriously sick of it. Freaking bunch of cry babies.

Patrick -

Cry me a river!

Daryl -

That is an excellent suggestion. In fact, me and my family have done it on multiple occasions (picked up trash while in the field).

The big picture you mention of really picking up a lot of crap with a truck is an excellent idea. Unfortunately, you will quickly become exceedingly frustrated when you come back and find your work was done in vein since some jerk came in right behind you and dumped another load for you to pick up.
Wow. that is one of the most disrespectful posts I have seen coming from one of the forum's least expected members. I am not sure who the "you guys" are. I must be one of them since I agree with some points. I have never really separated everyone into us and them, except for maybe those that care about how they represent themselves on this forum and those that do not seem to care. Food for thought.

The chess game ended in a tie. Suck it up and accept it. :)

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 1st, 2010, 10:19 am

chad ks wrote:
Ah, the good old slippery slope fallacy. So let's just ride that slope the whole way and say that breaking a speed limit is murder*.
fyi, this actually was not a slippery slope fallacy as you claimed it was.
That's perhaps not all it is, but there's clearly a slippery slope involved. Brad suggests that anyone who violates any law is a hypocrite if he or she objects to violation of any other law*; i.e., that if I believe breaking one law is acceptable, I must conclude that breaking all laws is acceptable**. Once I take one step over the line, I'm the whole way over...

Patrick

* Or, presumably, even the same law, this being a case in which he may have a point;
** At least, not rejected on legal grounds.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 1st, 2010, 10:24 am

To continue briefly, I don't see two interpretations of the law being compared, although perhaps you could arrive at Brad's conclusions by that route.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Bryan_Hughes » July 1st, 2010, 12:05 pm

Looks like the board is officially back in fine form!

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan » July 1st, 2010, 12:36 pm

Bryan_Hughes wrote:Looks like the board is officially back in fine form!

Sad, isn't it? And I helped it happen. At least it's on the board line where it belongs.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin » July 1st, 2010, 5:12 pm

I can't believe that I feel compelled to say all of this yet again, but after seeing the latest crop of misstatements about my position, I do:

I don't like to find trash when I'm enjoying the outdoors, even while herping and knowing as I do that it improves my odds of finding animals, but I haven't pushed my personal aesthetic sense to make an outright condemnation of AC in general. I didn't say that AC is harmful to the herps, I didn't say that people shouldn't look for herps under AC that was trash other people dumped previously, I didn't say that people who put out AC illegally are blackguards who should rot in a prison somewhere, etc. In fact, if AC is put out legally then I'm just fine with it, whatever my aesthetic sense says. I applauded Chris' report about his legal placement of AC on public land just as soon as he made it, and I also applaud Fundad's report about what he and the InComparable Hubbs (ICH) did. (Way to go, guys! :thumb: )

What I have condemned since long before this thread, still do condemn and will continue to condemn, well, forever is people putting out AC without the landowner's/manager's permission. It is most definitely illegal, and especially for that reason I firmly believe it is also harmful to the herp community overall. I believe it encourages other outdoor enthusiasts and authorities to think of herpers in general as disrespectful of the outdoors in pursuit of their own selfish pleasures (hence slob hunters) and of the laws of the land; I also believe this perception is likely planted all the more firmly in the minds of authorities when they happen to look at a herping forum and see numerous people defending and even encouraging the practice. It's not a question of "how" illegal it is, but of the illegality being associated with the whole community rather than just the individuals who do it. (If a person driving a Chevy truck gets pulled over and given a ticket for speeding, it doesn't prompt authorities to think of Chevy truck drivers in general as scofflaws. But how many posts have been made to this message board over the years from people who believe - because they have reason to believe - that a lot of wildlife authorities are constantly looking for reasons to think badly of herpers and treat them badly as a result?)

Daryl, I think your idea of picking up some trash while out flipping other trash for herps is pretty cool. I'd suggest that anyone who does this be careful, though. A law enforcement officer who finds someone with a pickup truck full of trash next to an illegal dump isn't likely to believe that the person is actually removing some of the trash that was already there rather than leaving more behind.

And I love your jugline labeling idea, Chris!

Gerry

RobK

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by RobK » July 1st, 2010, 5:54 pm

jonathan wrote:At least it's on the board line where it belongs.
I have to respectfully disagree, this should be moved to the BORED Line.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Rick Staub » July 1st, 2010, 7:14 pm

The Bored Line -- I like it. There should be a ranking link for threads where after they reach a certain poor rating they go to the Bored Line.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Scott Waters » July 1st, 2010, 9:34 pm

There already is a ranking system, your brain. It's easy, try it.

"Is the thread boring?"

1) Yes
2) No

And there ya have it, you've ranked a thread.

Enjoy :beer:

scott

Aaron
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 1st, 2010, 11:38 pm

Ah, the joys of myopia.

Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...

Patrick
Not myopic, I did try to think of something other than herps that might be harmed. But AC typically covers such a tiny fraction of a percent of any given area in which it's placed I just could not phathom it doing any harm to anything. Still I recognized the possiblity I may have overlooked something, that is why I did not say 'the ONLY thing AC might harm...', I said 'ABOUT the only thing AC might harm...' I am not talking about stuff dumped by non-herpers either, as that could included any amount and type of who knows what like barrels of anthrax, etc. I am talking strictly about the typical herper generated boards and tins and I just cannot phathom them being placed in large enough amounts to cause any significant changes to where they are laid.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » July 2nd, 2010, 9:52 am

Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...
Where did Arron say or insinuate that herps were the only things that have habitats??

Where is his MYOPIA you refer too?

Why don't you just provide an education to us on the animals and habitats of a non herp or two we don't think about when herp habitat is talked about? That would be a better use of your "Energy"..

:lol:


Gezz
Fundad

paalexan
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 2nd, 2010, 10:20 am

Aaron wrote:
Ah, the joys of myopia.

Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...
Not myopic, I did try to think of something other than herps that might be harmed. But AC typically covers such a tiny fraction of a percent of any given area in which it's placed I just could not phathom it doing any harm to anything. Still I recognized the possiblity I may have overlooked something, that is why I did not say 'the ONLY thing AC might harm...', I said 'ABOUT the only thing AC might harm...' I am not talking about stuff dumped by non-herpers either, as that could included any amount and type of who knows what like barrels of anthrax, etc. I am talking strictly about the typical herper generated boards and tins and I just cannot phathom them being placed in large enough amounts to cause any significant changes to where they are laid.
Ah, OK, so I could just bulldoze all those boardlines and I wouldn't be causing any harm, either. :-)

Similarly, any griping about damage to rockpiles is moot unless the rockpiles are very, very large...

That said, you're probably right in most cases that boardlines are small enough they're not going to have any dramatic impact. My point was simply that if you're going to discuss whether placing AC involves destroying habitat (it unquestionably does), saying that it doesn't harm herps is a very narrow view of the problem.

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 2nd, 2010, 10:26 am

Fundad wrote:
Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...
Where did Arron say or insinuate that herps were the only things that have habitats??

Where is his MYOPIA you refer too?
Oh come on, it was the bit of text that I quoted right above that. You probably deleted it in writing your reply, and, no, I'm not going to bother quoting it again here!
Why don't you just provide an education to us on the animals and habitats of a non herp or two we don't think about when herp habitat is talked about? That would be a better use of your "Energy"..
So... when discussing the impacts of AC, anything that ain't a herp doesn't matter?

I think that's the myopia I was talking about. :-)

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » July 2nd, 2010, 10:51 am

Oh come on, it was the bit of text that I quoted right above that. You probably deleted it in writing your reply, and, no, I'm not going to bother quoting it again here!
:lol: :lol: ???

No I want to know about where you saw his MYOPIA in HIS post?
So... when discussing the impacts of AC, anything that ain't a herp doesn't matter?

I think that's the myopia I was talking about. :-)

Patrick
Your assuming that Arron or whoever thinks that!! Well you know what that say about assuming??

:lol:

Fundad

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 2nd, 2010, 11:24 am

Fundad wrote:
Oh come on, it was the bit of text that I quoted right above that. You probably deleted it in writing your reply, and, no, I'm not going to bother quoting it again here!
:lol: :lol: ???

No I want to know about where you saw his MYOPIA in HIS post?
Seriously, Fundad, pretending not to have basic reading comprehension skills is not a compelling form of argument. :wink:

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » July 2nd, 2010, 11:40 am

Seriously, Fundad, pretending not to have basic reading comprehension skills is not a compelling form of argument. :wink:

Patrick
:lol:

Your the one that is lacking comprehension skills, politeness, and a whole host of other skills. And basically your denying you said this now..
Quote:
Ah, the joys of myopia.

Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...

Patrick
Fundad

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 2nd, 2010, 11:58 am

Fundad wrote:
Seriously, Fundad, pretending not to have basic reading comprehension skills is not a compelling form of argument. :wink:

Patrick
:lol:

Your the one that is lacking comprehension skills, politeness, and a whole host of other skills. And basically your denying you said this now..
paalexan wrote:Quote:
Ah, the joys of myopia.

Herps aren't the only things that have habitats, you know...
I'm denying what now? Huh?

All I'm saying is that I'm really not interested in playing the "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is" game with you.

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 2nd, 2010, 2:34 pm

Ah, OK, so I could just bulldoze all those boardlines and I wouldn't be causing any harm, either.
I don't think that's even a valid comparision. A boardline consists of small pieces, rarely more than 4' x 8' placed at distances from each other within a habitat that remains 99.999% intact. A bulldozer mows down everything in it path.
Similarly, any griping about damage to rockpiles is moot unless the rockpiles are very, very large...
In some cases there may be similarities but there are alot of differences too. For one, boardlines simulate a habitat feature(mammal holes) that is much more temporary than the habitat feature rock formations provide.
That said, you're probably right in most cases that boardlines are small enough they're not going to have any dramatic impact.
Of course I am right. You are just taking minutia and playing devil's advocate. We both know this.
My point was simply that if you're going to discuss whether placing AC involves destroying habitat (it unquestionably does), saying that it doesn't harm herps is a very narrow view of the problem.
Ok you have made your point and I accept it. However I did allow for this when I said "about" the only thing boardlines hurt is sensibilities. We both know that in 99.999% percent of cases placing a few boards on the ground is not going to significantly change a habitat. When you say they "unquestionably cause damage", it sounds rather ominous but actually that is a very vague statement. Stepping on a blade of grass unquestionably causes damage so what kind of damage are you talking about here?

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Daryl Eby » July 2nd, 2010, 2:39 pm

Aaron wrote:Stepping on a blade of grass unquestionably causes damage
That's why I prefer herping in the desert. :lol:

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Rick Staub » July 2nd, 2010, 3:39 pm

Scott Waters wrote:There already is a ranking system, your brain. It's easy, try it.

"Is the thread boring?"

1) Yes
2) No

And there ya have it, you've ranked a thread.

Enjoy :beer:

scott
Yes but if there was a ranking then I may save myself the time and anguish of discovering that the thread is boring by having to wade into it in the first place. I might lose out on the sliver of enjoyment one takes from watching a train wreck but I would have more time to pursue more productive ends such as writing and reviewing articles. :lol: :lol:

paalexan
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 2nd, 2010, 3:40 pm

Aaron wrote:
Ah, OK, so I could just bulldoze all those boardlines and I wouldn't be causing any harm, either.
I don't think that's even a valid comparision. A boardline consists of small pieces, rarely more than 4' x 8' placed at distances from each other within a habitat that remains 99.999% intact. A bulldozer mows down everything in it path.
But we could bulldoze an equivalent area, right? Or I could just go over and steal all your boards. Or pile them up & burn them for a good bonfire. You might be pissed off about this, but don't worry, I won't have done any harm. After all, I've just changed an infinitesimally small area of a temporary habitat type. :-)
That said, you're probably right in most cases that boardlines are small enough they're not going to have any dramatic impact.
Of course I am right. You are just taking minutia and playing devil's advocate. We both know this.
Because clearly no one could actually disagree with you. Or, perhaps, value clear thinking on its own merits--I mean, that's just nuts! :-)
My point was simply that if you're going to discuss whether placing AC involves destroying habitat (it unquestionably does), saying that it doesn't harm herps is a very narrow view of the problem.
Ok you have made your point and I accept it. However I did allow for this when I said "about" the only thing boardlines hurt is sensibilities. We both know that in 99.999% percent of cases placing a few boards on the ground is not going to significantly change a habitat.
I haven't looked at nearly enough boardlines to come to a conclusion that extreme...
When you say they "unquestionably cause damage", it sounds rather ominous but actually that is a very vague statement. Stepping on a blade of grass unquestionably causes damage so what kind of damage are you talking about here?
Hey, there's hope for you yet! :-)

Just imagine what's at some 4' x 8' spot before a board is dropped on it, then imagine what's there afterward. The stuff in the first picture but not the second is stuff for which habitat has been destroyed. It's really not that complicated*.

Patrick

* Well, unless we start worrying about microbes & fungi &c., which I won't.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 2nd, 2010, 3:41 pm

Rick Staub wrote:Yes but if there was a ranking then I may save myself the time and anguish of discovering that the thread is boring by having to wade into it in the first place. I might lose out on the sliver of enjoyment one takes from watching a train wreck but I would have more time to pursue more productive ends such as writing and reviewing articles. :lol: :lol:
Of course, reviewing articles may offer only the same sliver of enjoyment one takes from watching a train wreck. :-)

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 2nd, 2010, 6:59 pm

"But we could bulldoze an equivalent area, right?"
You wouldn't need a bulldozer but yes we could take a regular garden hoe and scrape several 2' x4' to 4' x 8' patches. I don't think it would cause any significant change to the dynamic of most ecosystems.
"Or pile them up & burn them for a good bonfire. You might be pissed off about this, but don't worry, I won't have done any harm. After all, I've just changed an infinitesimally small area of a temporary habitat type."
How does this even relate to the discussion? Nonsensical comments like this are exactly why I don't think you are even serious about boardlines causing damage.
"Because clearly no one could actually disagree with you. Or, perhaps, value clear thinking on its own merits--I mean, that's just nuts!"
Hey now, you're the one who said it first, that I was "probably right", I was just agreeing with you. Now you're talking about "clear thinking" as if to imply I am not thinking clearly. If that's so why have you not tried to make any serious arguements? All you're doing is throwing out vague references to some inexplicet damage that supposedly may or may not be caused by boardlines.
"I haven't looked at nearly enough boardlines to come to a conclusion that extreme..."
Maybe that's why you don't have any specific examples, even hypothetical ones, of damage caused by boardlines.
"Hey, there's hope for you yet!"

Nice, another serious comment from on high. I didn't think it could get any better than being called myopic, thank you.
"Just imagine what's at some 4' x 8' spot before a board is dropped on it, then imagine what's there afterward. The stuff in the first picture but not the second is stuff for which habitat has been destroyed. It's really not that complicated*.

Patrick

* Well, unless we start worrying about microbes & fungi &c., which I won't."

Now imagine that for each 4' x 8' spot covered by a board there are 10,000 more 4' x 8' spots adjacent that are not covered by any board.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mike Waters » July 2nd, 2010, 9:28 pm

Legal issues of board lines has been weighing on my curiosity for some time, not that it has prevented me from laying boards. I imagine those of you who oppose laying AC have been thumbing through the law books looking for some proof to back up your argument as well as wearing out your thesaurus looking for big impressive words. So have you found any thing that proves laying wood in a forest is illegal. I like to think of it as taking my boards "home".

Gerry don't be too offended, your not the only whackadoodle posting here.

Who ever suggested burning fundads board line. lmfao

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mike Waters » July 2nd, 2010, 9:37 pm

Brad, your negative attitude is unbecoming.

paalexan
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 2nd, 2010, 11:34 pm

Aaron wrote:"But we could bulldoze an equivalent area, right?"
You wouldn't need a bulldozer but yes we could take a regular garden hoe and scrape several 2' x4' to 4' x 8' patches. I don't think it would cause any significant change to the dynamic of most ecosystems.
"Or pile them up & burn them for a good bonfire. You might be pissed off about this, but don't worry, I won't have done any harm. After all, I've just changed an infinitesimally small area of a temporary habitat type."
How does this even relate to the discussion? Nonsensical comments like this are exactly why I don't think you are even serious about boardlines causing damage.
I thought the relevance was fairly clear. If a bit of reasoning you're providing as a justification for actions you like seems to equally well justify actions you don't like, it is suspect.
"Because clearly no one could actually disagree with you. Or, perhaps, value clear thinking on its own merits--I mean, that's just nuts!"
Hey now, you're the one who said it first, that I was "probably right", I was just agreeing with you. Now you're talking about "clear thinking" as if to imply I am not thinking clearly. If that's so why have you not tried to make any serious arguements? All you're doing is throwing out vague references to some inexplicet damage that supposedly may or may not be caused by boardlines.
Wait, how could I have been playing devil's advocate if I was agreeing with you? :-)

However, by "serious argument" I think you mean rationalization of some predetermined opinion, which is not clear thinking...
"Hey, there's hope for you yet!"

Nice, another serious comment from on high. I didn't think it could get any better than being called myopic, thank you.
In case you're unaware, the smily face that followed that comment indicates that the comment was intended humorously. As is this comment. :-)
"Just imagine what's at some 4' x 8' spot before a board is dropped on it, then imagine what's there afterward. The stuff in the first picture but not the second is stuff for which habitat has been destroyed. It's really not that complicated*."

Now imagine that for each 4' x 8' spot covered by a board there are 10,000 more 4' x 8' spots adjacent that are not covered by any board.
Done. So we've got a few places where habitat destruction occurred, and a bunch of places where it didn't.

Patrick

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Daryl Eby » July 3rd, 2010, 5:11 am

Mike Waters wrote:Legal issues of board lines has been weighing on my curiosity for some time, not that it has prevented me from laying boards. I imagine those of you who oppose laying AC have been thumbing through the law books looking for some proof to back up your argument as well as wearing out your thesaurus looking for big impressive words. So have you found any thing that proves laying wood in a forest is illegal. I like to think of it as taking my boards "home".
I actually support laying AC. I just oppose doing it without permission. In response to your post, I did a quick Google Search on littering. I focused on California law due to the popularity of board lines there.

There are likely some more relevant statutes, but this is the first that I found.
(g) "Litter" means all improperly discarded waste material,
including, but not limited to, convenience food, beverage, and other
product packages or containers constructed of steel, aluminum, glass,
paper, plastic, and other natural and synthetic materials, thrown or
deposited on the lands and waters of the state, but not including
the properly discarded waste of the primary processing of
agriculture, mining, logging, sawmilling, or manufacturing.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisg ... n=retrieve

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » July 3rd, 2010, 7:50 am

I like to think of it as taking my boards "home".
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Who ever suggested burning fundads board line. lmfao

DOH!!! :lol: :lol: It's actually happened to a couple of places.. :D

I think I' go lay out a board or two now, right on top of our mainly NON native grasses and weeds that have taken over so much of the So Cal landscape.. (Of course I ll say a small prayer and ask for forgiveness for the Microbes that I kill during the event) :lol: :lol:

Fundad

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin » July 3rd, 2010, 7:54 am

Mike Waters wrote:Legal issues of board lines has been weighing on my curiosity for some time...
Seriously, Mike? I'm a rather evidence-based person, but simply from having been born and raised and having spent most of my adult life in the U.S., it has always been so self-evident to me that I've never wondered about it nor sought proof of it in law books. (Not since I was about six years old and plucked flowers from a neighbor's garden to give to my mother for Mother's Day, and instead of thanking me for my present she severely scolded me for damaging and stealing from our neighbor's property, and then marched me back over there to apologize. ;) ) Property ownership and land owner's rights matter tremendously in this country. The rule of thumb (and the laws that stem from it) is that you can do what you want on your own property, with relatively few restrictions, but not on the property of others; on the latter property you have to abide by the land owner or other authority there. Public land isn't simply unclaimed and therefore somehow outside of the system, but rather it is publicly held (not for you or me as individuals, but for us combined) and managed by the relevant government (it would be impossible to get all of us individuals to agree on what can and can't be done on the land, so they represent us). You must know that you can't just go out to a state forest or other piece of public land and do whatever you want there, right? Why would you ever think that hauling a truckload of boards or whatever (AC to you but trash to the authorities and others) out there and dispersing (again, others' view is littering/dumping) it without persmission would be some kind of amazing exception to this hugely important rule in American life?
Mike Waters wrote:... not that it has prevented me from laying boards...
I understand (but still can't condone) this attitude if one views it merely as akin to something like speeding in one's car, and being willing to take whatever speeding tickets one gets as a result. But anyone who's been herping a while, not to mention participating in a herping internet forum such as this one, must surely come to realize that all too often problems occur for the entire herping community because many authorities have a dim view of us in general - thinking us all poachers and other kinds of scofflaws - and use whatever individual herper wrongdoing they're aware of as justification for their view. So in effect you might well be earning all of us that speeding ticket, not just yourself. (And of course the probability of that goes way up when one not only privately disregards the law, but also gets on a message board such as this one and publicly proclaims that s/he does it/that it's just fine for everyone to do it/that s/he doesn't care if it's not fine to do it/etc.) It's incredibly unfair, of course, but it's the reality we live with nonetheless.

And for any herper who understands this unfortunate dynamic but still doesn't care or let it affect what s/he does in the field - and I'm not saying that's the case with you or anyone else here specifically, though I suspect it is for a number of the herpers engaging in this practice - well, "slob hunter" seems to me like a pretty mild term to describe such, and I could think of a lot worse that would also be accurate. Such selfish disregard for others is frankly disgusting.

As Chris and Fundad (with ICH) have pointed out, too, it's not like there isn't a legal way to go about placing one's own AC on land that belongs to someone else. All that's required is to be willing to make the effort to get the proper permission, and in those cases where that's simply not possible (and despite the protests of some, we really don't know how common this is because virtually no one has really tried to date), to be mature enough to accept that one can't have everything s/he might want.
Mike Waters wrote:Gerry don't be too offended...
Don't worry, Mike, it's pretty hard even for people who actually know me to offend me, let alone folks who are essentially strangers to me except through their posts to an internet message board. ;) I am often perplexed, though, by how ready some people here are to abandon open, honest discourse for more underhanded means of persuasion when they realize that they're on the losing side of a debate. I sometimes wonder, do these same people attempt to cheat in sporting events, in board games with children, in their school or workplace, on their spouses, etc. as well? Or do they somehow absurdly think that bad behavior here doesn't count as it would in the "real world"? Like I said, it perplexes me...

Gerry

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brad Alexander » July 3rd, 2010, 8:22 am

Gerry's greatness is only surpassed by his own greatness.

wackadoodle!

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 3rd, 2010, 8:29 am

Patrick, I think the problem might be that I tend to speak very literally. When I said "about the only damage boardlines make is to the sensibilities", I really meant "about". As in there is some damage other than that to the sensibilities but due to the nature of boardlines only covering a tiny fraction of a percent of whaterver larger continous area they are placed in, the actual damage to habitat is minute. I did not say there was no damage but you right away hauled of and called me myopic. Then rather than actually attempt to describe any specific damage you thought was occuring you simply made vague and ominous references to some unknown damge that I was overlooking that may or may not be vast. Or you made wierd comparision(bulldozing and buring my boardlines?) that seemed to have no relevance to me, so I did not take them seriously. By the way if you want to make a comparision that's equivalent you would take the total square feet of a field, or what have you, that a boardline is placed in and divide by the total square feet of the boards. Then divide that by the total number of boards and make an eqivalent size and number of tiny holes in the boards.

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