Greed is sooooo ugly

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Aaron
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 5th, 2010, 8:55 pm

In fact I hear CAF&G has a sting planned. It's going to be called "Operation Relieve Board-dom".

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Mike Waters
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mike Waters » July 5th, 2010, 10:50 pm

Aaron wrote:In fact I hear CAF&G has a sting planned. It's going to be called "Operation Relieve Board-dom".
Is this a joke? I don't think I have seen much illegal activity discussed on the forum, except the occasional newbie that says. " I just caught this coast horned lizard. I have a tank for it but what do I feed it." But I guess ignorance is no excuse.

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gbin
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin » July 6th, 2010, 3:43 am

Paul White wrote:... frankly I have 0 sympathy for someone who A: broke the law and B: talked about it in a public forum so...
I feel the same way, Paul. But I can't imagine that anyone is going to go after a herper for ignorantly or even knowingly laying out an illegal boardline somewhere and then talking it about it here. What I can imagine all too easily, though, is how such misbehavior by a herper here and there might negatively affect authorities' views toward herpers in general, especially if they're already predisposed to thinking of herpers as scofflaws. And that could have tangible repercussions for all of us by tipping the balance (further) in favor of future regulations meant not just to stop the misbehavior but to curtail the hobby in general.

Gerry

Aaron
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 6th, 2010, 4:43 am

Yes, it's a joke, ie relieving boredom vs. board-dom.

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Fundad
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » July 6th, 2010, 6:24 am

Image

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Fundad

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by chris_mcmartin » July 6th, 2010, 9:30 am

gbin wrote:What I can imagine all too easily, though, is how such misbehavior by a herper here and there might negatively affect authorities' views toward herpers in general, especially if they're already predisposed to thinking of herpers as scofflaws. And that could have tangible repercussions for all of us by tipping the balance (further) in favor of future regulations meant not just to stop the misbehavior but to curtail the hobby in general.
MOST of this whole thread can be boiled down to this. Too bad there's currently 11 pages to get there! :lol:

My own view is that I want herpers as a group to be seen as folks who are honest brokers, that can be a force multiplier for cash- and personnel-strapped state wildlife departments--a source of useful data, rather than a group to be marginalized. Some states are coming around to this view; others see us as indiscriminate collectors who reap windfall profits.

Mark this thread in the FHF annals...Gerry and I agree about something. :thumb:

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Fundad
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » July 6th, 2010, 11:34 am

My own view is that I want herpers as a group to be seen as folks who are honest brokers, that can be a force multiplier for cash- and personnel-strapped state wildlife departments--a source of useful data, rather than a group to be marginalized. Some states are coming around to this view; others see us as indiscriminate collectors who reap windfall profits.
See NAFHA for our current contributions..

Unfortunately there a number of bad people in this hobby (it will NEVER go away), But there are also bad people the hunting hobby, and a ton of bad people in the fishing hobby.. Heck the general population has good and bad people..



Fundad

Aaron
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 6th, 2010, 5:33 pm

Unfortunately there a number of bad people in this hobby (it will NEVER go away), But there are also bad people the hunting hobby, and a ton of bad people in the fishing hobby.. Heck the general population has good and bad people..
Fundad you're absolutly correct. The so called bad apples are no valid reason for game agencies to hate herpers as a whole. For example in San Luis Obispo county CAF&G recently wanted to open season on black bear. They included these factors in the study:
1. An estimate of the total population.
2. An estimate of reproductive output.
3. An estimate of total number of "excess" harvestable black bears per year.
4. An estimate of demand through legal take.
5. An estimate of illegal take.

In an interview with a local paper(New Times) I seem to recall a representative of CAF&G saying that as long as the combined #4 and #5 did not exceed #3, black bear season should be opened.

I suspect that estimates of illegal take are a routine part of how game agencies come up with bag limits on most game species and fish. I have never heard of it with herps though. I am under the impression that it's common for wildlife agencies to regard any possibility of illegal take as valid reason for all sorts of restrictions where herps are concerned. For example, CAF&G has cited the potential for "laundering" wild caughts as the most frequent reason for maintaining the bag/possession limit for L. zonata at one and for not allowing them into the Commercial Propagation Permit program. As far as I know this is without actually having done any sort of estimate on how much "laundering" could be expected to occur.

Another point I have about the black bear example is that CAF&G did not actually conduct any survey's in the affected area(San Luis Obispo county) to arrive at #1 and #2 above. For these estimates they simply used existing studies that had already been conducted in other counties and extrapolated those figures to San Luis Obispo county.

At some point earlier in this thread somebody mentioned mammal traps. In CA mammal trapping is allowed on public property if you have a license and follow the regulations. Boardlines aren't the same thing but they do share some similarities and serve a similar purpose. I think it could be reasonably argued that boardlines share more similarities with mammal traps than they do with litter, thus one could argue that since there are no specific regulations against boardlines they may be permitted in any public place where licensed reptile hunting is allowed. I'm not bringing this up to restart the arguement on AC, only to show the disparity that exists between managment practices for herps compared to other wildlife. In contrast to other wildlife there doesn't seem to be enough study devoted to herps, IMHO. As Chris said, "marginalized" seems to be an accurate describer for the state in which the herp hobby currently exists. With the rate the herp hobby is growing I'd like to think there is hope that things might get more equitable in the future.

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Mike Waters
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mike Waters » July 6th, 2010, 6:40 pm

Well put Aaron.

Maybe if Zonata started mauling hikers and people that lived in the mountains they would raise the limit. CA allows 1700 bears to be killed a year and they are still over populated. I know, OFF TOPIC. But I think this thread is all about the thread counts now. Or maybe it has been the whole time.

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Fundad
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad » July 7th, 2010, 9:06 am

Aaron that is an AWESOME example and Breakdown... :thumb:

I have often said its to bad Herps aren't managed like Deer, Bear, trout and Waterfowl. I think they deserve the same management. But the department doesn't have the money or interest in doing so.

What I have ALWAYS found Ironic is..

In a 5 year period, I can take 5 bears and kill them, but I am still only allowed to take 2 and posses 2 Rosy Boas during that same time frame.

Which to me is utterly ridiculous, because there are 1,000x more Rosy Boas than there are Bears.

But than again I don't feel sorry for those who want the bag limits raised, because when Rick Staub try to get people to show up and write to the commission, to get a herp stamp program going, most everyone didn't do a darn thing to help.. Much like the 2000 issues when the department wanted to protect the Parvs and a few other species.. Only 5 PEOPLE showed up at the commission meeting. Freakin 5!!! Unbelievable..

Fundad

Aaron
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » July 8th, 2010, 7:37 pm

I too would like to see annual bag limits instituted. Lifetime possesion limits are nothing more than CAF&G pushing herpers out of the picture because they don't want to deal with us. They are the ones charged with managing them and they are supposed to consider the public so I consider them primarily responsible. They have the time and resources to arrest and prosecute people with things that often should not be crimes. It makes me angry but I live with it.

I guess I was one of the few who also liked Rick's idea and I filled out his survey but I guess in the end there was not enough who did to make it worth presenting to CAF&G. To me it's sad that CAF&G would even need to be persuaded like that to do something they should be doing without us having to take such measures. CAF&G wanted bear hunting in San Luis Obispo county, they did not need to be persuaded with petitions as far as I know. I am appreciative of what we do have in the Propagation Permit though. In my opinion it has done alot to reduce poaching and bring the hobby into more into the light but the data they are getting should be used to get some estimates of demand and such and I believe the program should be expanded. When I go to TX people sometimes ask me if I can get Rubber Boas, zonatas and Alligator Lizards but they do not ask for Cal Kings, Gophersnakes and Rosies. To me the effects of allowing captive breeding are clear within the market.

paalexan
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by paalexan » July 9th, 2010, 11:53 am

Aaron wrote:
Unfortunately there a number of bad people in this hobby (it will NEVER go away), But there are also bad people the hunting hobby, and a ton of bad people in the fishing hobby.. Heck the general population has good and bad people..
Fundad you're absolutly correct. The so called bad apples are no valid reason for game agencies to hate herpers as a whole.
Valid or not, if it's the reason, it's the reason.

I think it's largely a matter of mainstream culture vs. sub-culture. Hunting and fishing are accepted parts of mainstream culture; herping isn't. Furthermore, maintaining and promoting the fish & game industries is fundamentally what F&G agencies are there for. They aren't generally going to go out of their way to alienate their clients. Herpers aren't, conceptually if nothing else, on that list.

Patrick

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azatrox
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by azatrox » August 15th, 2010, 4:21 am

Who in their right mind would want one of those dumb little zonata snakes anyway? :lol:

-Kris

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FunkyRes
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by FunkyRes » August 17th, 2010, 8:00 pm

Paul White wrote:I know our state herpetologist does monitor this and K-snake *shrug* frankly I have 0 sympathy for someone who A: broke the law and B: talked about it in a public forum so...
This is without a doubt.

I posted pics of Elgaria eggs hatching at KS several years ago and received an e-mail asking if I was planning to sell any that just smelled of sting.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Paul White » August 17th, 2010, 8:26 pm

OMG I would love an Elgaria. I feel horrible for Californians not being able to breed and sell most of their natives :( Allowing collection but not captive propagation for sale leaves me scratching my head

Aaron
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron » August 17th, 2010, 10:26 pm

Paul, Elgaria are common to abundant in most habitats of CA, other than desert. I spend about 10 days in TX hoping to catch(now see) just one grayband. If you came to CA for 10 days, with just a little effort you'd probably see 20+ Elgaria. Although the bag limit is two, I believe. Your biggest problem would probably be deciding which ones not to take.

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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Paul White » August 18th, 2010, 7:12 am

If/when I visit my brother I plan to :) Not a huge collector type but if I can get a pair (and maybe have my brother ship me a pair, he has a fishing license so he could get two...). I just love most of the North American lizards and very few are available as CBB *sigh* and laws like that are part of the reason why

stlouisdude
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Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by stlouisdude » August 18th, 2010, 6:34 pm

gbin wrote:
Paul White wrote:... frankly I have 0 sympathy for someone who A: broke the law and B: talked about it in a public forum so...
I feel the same way, Paul. But I can't imagine that anyone is going to go after a herper for ignorantly or even knowingly laying out an illegal boardline somewhere and then talking it about it here.
Gerry
Actually, I think laying out boards is exactly why they would go after them (unless they have consent or own the land). Littering is illegal in most places. I also have no sympathy for actual, law breaking poachers.

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