Greed is sooooo ugly

Extended discussion forum.

Moderator: Scott Waters

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad »

..this petty snippy shit back and forth to each other is a real turn off to wanting to become involved and post more........just sayin'......


Well all I can say to you as someone thats been in the "community" for 30+ years, you'll need to get use to it, and have thick skin. It gets pretty dam brutal around here at times. There is 1,000 years of experience running around on this forum, and "everyone" well let you know if they think you are wrong, and I have yet to see anyone be immune from it.. NO ONE!!!

just sayin
Fundad

everyone
Posts: 1
Joined: June 29th, 2010, 8:57 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by everyone »

Fundad wrote:
There is 1,000 years of experience running around on this forum, and "everyone" well let you know if they think you are wrong
You are wrong.

User avatar
brick911
Posts: 3488
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 am
Location: Morrisville, PA

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by brick911 »

1. I think joecop has handled the reactions wonderfully.

2. I never do anything wrong. :?

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad »

You are wrong.
Again, Dam it.. :lol: :lol:
2. I never do anything wrong. :?
Shall we go to the NE forum and see what they say... :lol: :lol: :x :crazyeyes: :mrgreen: LOL jk


Fundad

joecop
Posts: 78
Joined: June 19th, 2010, 7:31 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by joecop »

I was a police officer in Washington D.C. for thirteen years. I have thick skin!! I probably could have presented the topic in a different way and worded the original post with more thought.(too late now!) We as herpers do not need any additional "bad press", but I do think there are a few herpers out there who need some schooling when it comes to herp ethics and respect for nature in general.

User avatar
brick911
Posts: 3488
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 am
Location: Morrisville, PA

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by brick911 »

Fundad wrote:
2. I never do anything wrong. :?
Shall we go to the NE forum and see what they say... :lol: :lol: :x :crazyeyes: :mrgreen: LOL jk


Fundad
Dammit. You've been lurking. :lol:

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad »

I was a police officer in Washington D.C. for thirteen years. I have thick skin!! I probably could have presented the topic in a different way and worded the original post with more thought.(too late now!) We as herpers do not need any additional "bad press", but I do think there are a few herpers out there who need some schooling when it comes to herp ethics and respect for nature in general.
Agreed, you handled it well Joe. If everyone would have known your name and who you are you would have received a little better response. But not a whole lot.. This topic gets visited twice a year, and will continue to get visited twice a year.. :lol:

I normally have a lot to add, but thought I would stay out of this one.. :lol:

Fundad

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin »

Fundad wrote:We wouldn't want to be viewed badly in poachers eyes? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:
.
.
.
I am confused to what "peeling tree bark" and AC have in common here??
Yup, it's clear that you're confused, all right. Try reading again what I wrote on these two points and see if that helps.
Fundad wrote:Hmm we have unsightly Tree Stands, duck blinds, fishing docks, but they are going to look at us badly because of natural elements such as Wood and Tin??
Uhmmm, does anyone here really believe that illegal activities by herpers and legal activities by other outdoor sportsmen are going to be viewed by non-herping outdoor enthusiasts and regulating authorities as the same?... :shock:
Fundad wrote:...to compare the placing of Wood and Tin, to create habitat is, equal to Rock alteration and bark peeling is misleading and inaccurate..
Whereas I would say instead that to pretend the second is slob hunting but the first isn't is just to make a hypocritical rationalization for misbehavior that one doesn't want to give up.
chris_mcmartin wrote:I think you were still on an FHF hiatus when I discussed my placing of AC on my local public land this spring. I had the permission of the natural resources manager (federal property); the AC was labeled letting people know it was part of a biological survey and had a contact number on it, and the cover is essentially taking the place of natural cover which has been destroyed in the past 7 years. Now that the grass has grown up all around it, if you don't know exactly where to look, you'd never know it was there.
Proving that it is possible to put out one's own AC in the right (and legal) way. Well done, chris! :thumb:

Gerry

Aaron
Posts: 287
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron »

Hellihooks: There is actually a gentelman's agreement (among those who are proficient at flipping Z's) here in So Cal, not to post Z pics until well after the flipping season is over. I posted my first Z, which was roadcruised with Brian... but checked with him first about posting it. jim

That's is great to hear. I don't think it's actually neccessary to wait all the way until the season is over but if that what you guys have decided more power to you. Waiting longer certainly doesn't harm the z's any.

I hope that this general principal will eventually be applied to all commercially valuable species. I do like to see posts and I don't have anything against helping newbies. I have accompanied two "newbies" on several z hunts this year and I hope i have done agood job in passing on traditional standards of ettiquite to them.

Joecop I think you did handle everything very well. I don't think anyone was personally upset with you. Z's are a hot issue and alot of feelings are simmering under the surface. Everything from anger at finding one's spots messed up, resentments for one's secret spots having been shared without permission to fears of more excessive restrictions being placed on the hobby. Your post somehow just became a vehicle for expressing that stuff and I don't think anyone really is blaming you personally.

I wonder if there has ever been a citation issued for rock destruction? A law against it is on the books but I have never heard of anyone actually getting caught. Personally I would rather see CAF&G doing their stakeouts in the Laguna's instead of at Whitewater. I think it would do alot more good.

Aaron
Posts: 287
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Aaron »

Gerry I have to say I think it's way off base to compare laying AC out to habitat damage. Just because they are both against the law doesn't mean they are equally harmful. About the only thing AC might harm is the sensibilities of a few of the people who happen to stumble upon it and it doesn't harm the herps at all. Habitat damage not only offends the sensibilities but, IMHO, it has potential to harm individual herps as well. I also think it may reduce the carrying capacity of some locations.

Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:59 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brian Eagar »

Gbin Wrote:
I see putting trash - excuse me, "artificial cover" - out on public property (or private property without the landowner's permission)
as no less slob-hunting and no less detrimental to the herp hobby than rock-tossing/breaking, bark peeling, etc.
In fact, that thought immediately leapt into my mind upon reading the very first post in this thread.
I don't think Fundad is arguing the fact that putting out AC on public land without permission is not illegal.

He is arguing with your assessment that it is "no less slob-hunting and no less detrimental to the herp hobby than rock-tossing/breaking, bark peeling, etc."

Putting out AC augments habitat whereas bark peeling and rock tossing destroys it / permanently alters it.
Slob hunters don't augment habitat they destroy it for their own personal short term interests.
The herp hobby by nature benefits from augmented and intact herp habitat whereas it suffers from
the destruction of habitat and the non-augmentation of habitat where animals could not be found by other means.

I think your statements stem from your concern about how the herp hobby is perceived by outsiders.
In that context it is true that illegal AC activity may be perceived in the same light by some naive outsiders
as habitat destruction. A naive hiker without knowledge of what AC can do for herp sampling in a situation like southern california grassland, who is also seeking a pristine hiking experience, is going to have a problem with any human disturbance to habitat. Whether that disturbance be in the form of what appears to be garbage littering the hillside or
bark torn off a tree by something other than a bear.

I doubt such a hiker would even see any of Fundad's boards though even if they left the trail.

Maybe we need a definition of slob-hunter. So people don't throw around terms that aren't universally defined.

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad »

Yup, it's clear that you're confused, all right.
nice personal reply.. :thumb:
Uhmmm, does anyone here really believe that illegal activities by herpers and legal activities by other outdoor sportsmen are going to be viewed by non-herping outdoor enthusiasts and regulating authorities as the same?... :shock:
Is placing biodegradable items, illegal?? Creating habitat is that bad? Its a MONSTER stretch for you to compare the two... rock damage and bark peeling=Habitat degradation, board placement =Habitat creation.. NOT THE SAME..
Fundad wrote:
...to compare the placing of Wood and Tin, to create habitat is, equal to Rock alteration and bark peeling is misleading and inaccurate..

Whereas I would say instead that to pretend the second is slob hunting but the first isn't is just to make a hypocritical rationalization for misbehavior that one doesn't want to give up.
:lol: :lol: STRETCHHHHHH

Fundad

Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:59 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brian Eagar »

Very nice Zonata Joecop. Sorry to contribute to the degeneration of your thread.

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin »

Just because two things aren't exactly equivalent in all possible ways doesn't mean that they can't be equivalent in some ways. Y'all can rationalize to your hearts' content (now people are putting AC out just to augment herp habitat, and not for their own personal benefit? :lol: ), but I stand by my statement that putting AC out without the permission of whoever owns/manages the land is:

- slob hunting,

- illegal, and

- for both of the above reasons, detrimental to the herping community.

For the record, I'm hardly a "naive outsider," and I've certainly hunted for herps under trash (that's what I call it - I've just been accepting y'all's euphemism for the sake of this discussion) when I've encountered it, but I've also always wished the trash wasn't there in the first place. Insane, huh? To actually prefer to find fewer herps, or at least to find them less easily, just so I can enjoy an outdoor experience less sullied by people who came before me? (Yes, I realize there are no truly pristine places left, but places can certainly be better or worse than others.) Well, I suspect there are a lot of people who share my "insanity" - and more than a few such people even in our own hobby.

Fundad, I didn't mean anything personal, but was just agreeing with you that you were confused about what I wrote. I think I wrote pretty clearly to begin with, so I didn't see any point in trying to explain things to you.

Gerry

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Daryl Eby »

gbin wrote:Just because two things aren't exactly equivalent in all possible ways doesn't mean that they can't be equivalent in some ways. Y'all can rationalize to your hearts' content (now people are putting AC out just to augment herp habitat, and not for their own personal benefit? :lol: ), but I stand by my statement that putting AC out without the permission of whoever owns/manages the land is:

- slob hunting,

- illegal, and

- for both of the above reasons, detrimental to the herping community.
I'll probably regret this in the morning, but I think Gerry has a good point. Illegal placement (or rearrangement) of AC is potentially harmful to how our hobby is perceived. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't get the impression that he was equating AC placement with habitat destruction beyond that point.

He could have worded things better or offered a more humble (perhaps even apologetic) clarification once it was obvious that the offense he had caused was overshadowing the value of his call for us all to be more responsible. However, the Lorax has never been one to pull his punches. He just calls 'em as he sees 'em. I've often disagreed with Gerry, but his passion is always in the right place and never in short supply.

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Daryl Eby »

John Vanek wrote:Does AC augment habitat, or does it simply change the probability of detection?
There was a great thread debating this topic a while back. Check the archives for ... oh nevermind :(

The long a short of it was that there were members here debating both sides. No actual proof or studies surfaced, but the anecdotal evidence and common sense arguments were IMHO very convincing that AC is likely a considerable benefit to some herps and does no harm to herps unless it is abused to capture and remove animals.

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin »

Daryl Eby wrote:... Maybe I missed it, but I didn't get the impression that he was equating AC placement with habitat destruction beyond that point...
Nope, you didn't miss it, Daryl. I haven't argued that the AC is bad for the herps - nor that it's good for the herps, for that matter. (I also haven't chimed in on whether rock-tossing/breaking or bark-stripping is actually bad or good for the herps, either.) That's a whole other discussion. ;)

I realize that calling someone's practices "slob hunting" might well offend them. But as you said, I call 'em as I (and a whole bunch of other people, I think) see 'em. And as a member of the herp community that I believe is being harmed by their illegal activity, I feel rather offended by it, myself. ("Please send your humble apologies to ..." :P )

Gerry

User avatar
Daryl Eby
Posts: 963
Joined: June 27th, 2010, 12:27 pm
Location: Terlingua / Marfa, Texas
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Daryl Eby »

Gerry, you certainly picked the right avatar. No Thneeds for me!

The Lorax by Dr. Seuss

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin »

No Thneeds, indeed!

Thank you, Daryl, that was just the bedtime reading I needed. :beer:

Gerry

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad »

I realize that calling someone's practices "slob hunting" might well offend them
We all know that you MEANT something by calling it that, pretty typical of you.. Backhanded comments that go on EVERY time there is a debate. Than you back track on it everytime its
pointed out..Are you NOT capable of having a conversation without them?

Personally I am not offended by it.

Wood is biodegradable and placing biodegradable objects is NOT illegal..

It is habitat that is USED by reptiles, rodents, insects, and other creatures, or else they wouldn't be there.. Some think wood duck boxes are unsightly, so what. Who gives a rats behind, get over it.. LOL

Here in California the Fish and Game are guilty of a tremendous amount of reptile killing and Habitat destruction with there replanting of native plants. They are plowing and or dozing those areas first, before replanting. Killing all reptile life by burying it alive.. Yet people like you are worried about what they think.. I got news for you, they think were wacko anyway.. :lol: :lol: And there isn't anything you can do to change that.. And you would really be surprised at how cool some in the agencies think looking under boards and tin is cool...

There is a large number of people that would like to see all public lands off limits to human use, except for a little trail they make for us. What a joke, and I may be the lone ranger, but I am not
going to stand by quietly, while they try to do that.

Your using a wide brush to paint people that sets out or look under a few boards and tin, as being equal to someone that "does rock damage", "peels bark", and takes a truck load of crap and garbage and dumps it..

Anyway I think have wasted enough of my breath on someone that is NOT capable of having a conversation without personal remarks and snide comments.

Fundad

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin »

Fundad wrote:
I realize that calling someone's practices "slob hunting" might well offend them
We all know that you MEANT something by calling it that, pretty typical of you.. Backhanded comments that go on EVERY time there is a debate. Than you back track on it everytime its pointed out..Are you NOT capable of having a conversation without them?
:? Huh? I said just what I meant, I meant just what I said and I didn't backtrack on anything. Seems pretty "front-handed" to me. Throughout my life I've often been told that I'm too direct (some would say blunt, or worse), but you just might be the first person to accuse me of being the opposite. :lol:

See, this is why it's always been so hard to have a conversation with you, Fundad. Your reading comprehension is shaky at best and falls right through the floor at worst, and you're always ready to take things as some kind of personal insult whether they were meant that way or not. (I'm going to guess that you've heard this about yourself a fair number of times throughout your life, too. Oh well, we all have our faults.) I'm inclined to try anyway because I tend to think of you as a good guy overall despite your obvious issues (and because it's in my nature to try, regardless), but it is tough.

For the record, the above paragraph certainly contains criticisms of you - which in my opinion you amply deserved. But even the most personal criticism is not the same thing as a personal insult. You might not get the difference, but you should try to remember that most other people do.
Fundad wrote:Wood is biodegradable and placing biodegradable objects is NOT illegal..
Illegal dumping is not defined by whether the materials are biodegradable.

So far as I can see, the rest of your latest post is just more hypocritical rationalization (other people/agencies behave badly, so we can too? :roll: ), and villification by outrageous generalization (who said anything anywhere in this thread about making public lands off-limits to human use? :?: and I'm the one using a wide brush? :roll: ). I'm happy to talk more if you actually seem to have something to bring to the conversation, but otherwise I agree that there's no point.

Gerry

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad »

See, this is why it's always been so hard to have a conversation with you, Fundad. Your reading comprehension is shaky at best and falls right through the floor at worst, and you're always ready to take things as some kind of personal insult whether they were meant that way or not. (I'm going to guess that you've heard this about yourself a fair number of times throughout your life, too. Oh well, we all have our faults.) I'm inclined to try anyway because I tend to think of you as a good guy overall despite your obvious issues (and because it's in my nature to try, regardless), but it is tough.

For the record, the above paragraph certainly contains criticisms of you - which in my opinion you amply deserved.
Really Nice and very typical of you, everytime you resort to this.... :thumb: :beer:

Your one hell of a classy guy.. :thumb:

Fundad

User avatar
Kent VanSooy
Posts: 1100
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Kent VanSooy »

Hellihooks: There is actually a gentelman's agreement (among those who are proficient at flipping Z's) here in So Cal, not to post Z pics until well after the flipping season is over. I posted my first Z, which was roadcruised with Brian... but checked with him first about posting it.

Aaron: That's is great to hear. I don't think it's actually neccessary to wait all the way until the season is over but if that what you guys have decided more power to you.
Not all of the gentlemen agreed whole-heartedly...a couple were fairly pi$$ed off by the suggestion. But it still seems like it was the right thing to do (and next year I'll make an effort to get buy-in much earlier in the season). But what about other species where the habitat can be easily damaged? Rosy boas come to the top of our minds in SoCal. On the one hand, the rosy season is much longer than that for zzz's, with many more decent days to look. On the other, several of us saw ridiculous amounts of sloppiness in the rosy hills this year, perhaps due to accounts of some of the successful trips that were posted. Maybe we should refrain from posting any animals except on the summer solstice. Yeech.

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by hellihooks »

gbin wrote:
Fundad wrote:

So far as I can see, the rest of your latest post is just more hypocritical rationalization (other people/agencies behave badly, so we can too? :roll: ), and villification by outrageous generalization (who said anything anywhere in this thread about making public lands off-limits to human use? :?: and I'm the one using a wide brush? :roll: ). I'm happy to talk more if you actually seem to have something to bring to the conversation, but otherwise I agree that there's no point.

Gerry
You how I find good spots to flip... I look for 'No Dumping' signs. The vast majority of AC out there is dumped by the very people you're worried about offending... Joe Public. While technically illeagle, the few pieces of carefully placed boards out there pale in comparison to the mountains of trash dumped by losers. When people see these piles of trash... they don't think; "those damn herpers!!!"
Comparing AC on public lands to damage caused by inexperianced/ un-caring herpers is ludicrious. Forget the 'broad rationalizations' your argument is a non-sequitor...jim

User avatar
Mitchell Mulks
Posts: 40
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:47 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mitchell Mulks »

Aaron -
Personally I would rather see CAF&G doing their stakeouts in the Laguna's instead of at Whitewater. I think it would do alot more good.
We've tried. Repeatedly. Do you know how fast the rats would scatter if a single person was nabbed and ticketed for taking pulchra? There's nothing illegal about looking for reptiles in the Laguna's, nor should there ever be. However, every year snakes are taken from the mountain. If only one of those people were ticketed it would be a strong deterrent for anyone else considering poaching from the mountain. DF&G simply doesn't have the internal funds to get officers up there. It's that simple. It sucks, but after years of trying nothing has happened yet.

Mitch

P.S. It is a double-edged sword though having officers on the mountain. Many people do visit the Laguna's with no intent to take a zonata, however, they might have an unpleasant experience with an over-aggressive officer who finds them photographing the animal. In the end though, I still think the benefits outweigh the minor troubles.

Mitch

Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Paul White »

I"m so glad where I herp this isn't much of an issue. Protected lands (which means I can't collect) but if you get caught jacking with habitat it's a major fine and jail time. Just walking the trails and looking carefully...

Brad Alexander
Posts: 71
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brad Alexander »

Hey Gerry....

Wakadoodle!

User avatar
MHollanders
Posts: 583
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 1:32 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by MHollanders »

@Fundad:

I'm not getting in this argument or anything, but wood boards (and possibly tin) have chemicals in them that are probably not organic.

Later, Matt

User avatar
Andreas Kettenburg
Posts: 45
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:00 pm
Location: Ventura County, Ca

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg »

The positive attributes of AC clearly outweigh the negative. It would take a lifetime to document all of the particular herp species in a given area doing a "natural" type herp survery. In fact, I bet a HUGE percentage of all the data entered into the NAFHA database are of animals that were observed using the benefits of AC.


Andreas......

User avatar
Cole Grover
Posts: 745
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 9:06 am
Location: Montana

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Cole Grover »

MHollanders wrote:but wood boards (and possibly tin) have chemicals in them that are probably not organic.
Actually, most of them are treated with organics (i.e. Dioxin and Dioxin derivatives). That said, these organic compounds are often as bad or worse than inorganics. Just a point of clarification for those interested. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

-Cole

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3666
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan »

Mitchell Mulks wrote: There's nothing illegal about looking for reptiles in the Laguna's, nor should there ever be.
That might be open to interpretation, since pulchra are a sensitive species and the CA DF&W definition of "take" includes "attempting to" pursue or catch reptiles. So if it's not legal to take pulchra, then it's not legal to attempt to pursue or catch them. I'm not sure, though, how they could prove that you were flipping rocks looking for pulchra and not, say, yellow-bellied racers.

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin »

I see that rationalizations of misbehavior and misrepresentations of opposing viewpoints have both been proliferating. Just once I wish everyone could stick to open and honest debate... :(

Of course, I never said "all AC is bad!" any more than I ever said "AC is bad in all ways!" :roll: In fact, in this very thread I unhesitatingly applauded someone for the way he went about putting out his own AC on public land. Remember Chris' post?...
chris_mcmartin wrote:I think you were still on an FHF hiatus when I discussed my placing of AC on my local public land this spring. I had the permission of the natural resources manager (federal property); the AC was labeled letting people know it was part of a biological survey and had a contact number on it, and the cover is essentially taking the place of natural cover which has been destroyed in the past 7 years. Now that the grass has grown up all around it, if you don't know exactly where to look, you'd never know it was there.
Interestingly, I think I'm the only person participating in this thread who bothered to comment on his post at all. Hmmm, now why would that be?...

Could it be that the folks who are putting their own AC out illegally and hypocritically rationalizing their misbehavior would rather pretend that Chris' approach simply doesn't exist, to save them from having to make a similar effort in order to be on the right rather than the wrong side of things? Could it really be that they're just that lazy? Well, that would go along with being slob hunters, I guess...

Gerry

User avatar
Andreas Kettenburg
Posts: 45
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:00 pm
Location: Ventura County, Ca

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg »

AC is as "natural" as it gets. People lay it down either legally or illegally, and animals use it for cover, thermoregulation, etc. The AC may not be natural, but the biotic relationship between the AC and animal is.

Andreas.....

User avatar
Andreas Kettenburg
Posts: 45
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:00 pm
Location: Ventura County, Ca

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg »

Could it be that the folks who are putting their own AC out illegally and hypocritically rationalizing their misbehavior would rather pretend that Chris' approach simply doesn't exist, to save them from having to make a similar effort in order to be on the right rather than the wrong side of things? Could it really be that they're just that lazy? Well, that would go along with being slob hunters, I guess...
Many people don't put their own AC out. They are utilizing the AC that has previously been illegally dumped by non-herpers.

chris_mcmartin wrote:
I think you were still on an FHF hiatus when I discussed my placing of AC on my local public land this spring. I had the permission of the natural resources manager (federal property); the AC was labeled letting people know it was part of a biological survey and had a contact number on it, and the cover is essentially taking the place of natural cover which has been destroyed in the past 7 years. Now that the grass has grown up all around it, if you don't know exactly where to look, you'd never know it was there.
Completely unrealistic set of circumstances for most areas; Except for the part with the grass growing up all around it, that seems to happen to most AC spots in the Spring.

Andreas....

User avatar
Mitchell Mulks
Posts: 40
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:47 am

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Mitchell Mulks »

Jonathan -
I'm not sure, though, how they could prove that you were flipping rocks looking for pulchra and not, say, yellow-bellied racers
That's exactly why I said it's not illegal to look for "reptiles" in the Laguna mountains. Yes, it is illegal to actively pursue pulchra, but none of the other species. Therefore, if you're herping the Laguna's have fun looking for night snakes, helleri, ringnecks, etc.

Mitch

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3666
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan »

Mitchell Mulks wrote:Jonathan -
I'm not sure, though, how they could prove that you were flipping rocks looking for pulchra and not, say, yellow-bellied racers
That's exactly why I said it's not illegal to look for "reptiles" in the Laguna mountains. Yes, it is illegal to actively pursue pulchra, but none of the other species. Therefore, if you're herping the Laguna's have fun looking for night snakes, helleri, ringnecks, etc.
But even if you said you were looking for those non-sensitive species, do you think that would hold up in front of a judge?

User avatar
FunkyRes
Posts: 1994
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:19 am
Location: Redding, CA
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by FunkyRes »

Mitchell Mulks wrote:Aaron -
Personally I would rather see CAF&G doing their stakeouts in the Laguna's instead of at Whitewater. I think it would do alot more good.
We've tried. Repeatedly. Do you know how fast the rats would scatter if a single person was nabbed and ticketed for taking pulchra? There's nothing illegal about looking for reptiles in the Laguna's, nor should there ever be. However, every year snakes are taken from the mountain. If only one of those people were ticketed it would be a strong deterrent for anyone else considering poaching from the mountain. DF&G simply doesn't have the internal funds to get officers up there. It's that simple. It sucks, but after years of trying nothing has happened yet.
How about radio transmitter and/or pit tags.

Would it work to detect radio transmitters on the roads leading out of areas and catch the poachers with specimens in hand? I don't know if the transmitters they put in snakes are strong enough for that.

Or use pit tags, order zonatas from sellers on KS.com etc. that you suspect are poached. One arrives with a pit tag, arrest the dealer. Even if the dealer isn't in CA, selling an illegally collected zonata violates Lacey. That should get the dealer to cut a deal and divulge his or her supplier. And since it has a pit tag, you know which rock pile it came from and can release it once it no longer is needed for evidence.

Putting pit tags in Z's up there would also give you log term data that might just show DF&G that they aren't as rare as they think they are. Or it may confirm it.

User avatar
Fieldherper
Posts: 244
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 9:46 am

A few more things...

Post by Fieldherper »

First--Joecop--I agree that you have handled the gauntlet well. It does get rough here sometimes, but I don't think anyone here tries to deliberately beat people up, hurt feelings, etc... There are just some very strong opinions in the herping community. Many of these arguments have been ongoing for decades.

As far as patrolling the Lagunas....I just think it would be pointless if your goal is to protect animals. The zs will always be there. Collectors will not remove all of them, or even enough of them to harm the population as a whole. Depleting local outcrops....sure. Pulchra in the Lagunas remain easy to find and are essentially a "sure thing." In addition to occupying the easy to hunt areas of the range, they inhabit the narrow canyons, chaparral-covered hillsides and other areas where hunting is nearly impossible.

Protection of pulchra occurred because of perceived rock damage, a lot of which was probably real in localized areas. Problems I have with this:
1.) The populations are not threatened by collectors, never have been, and never will be. Humans as a species will be gone before zonata are unless we nuke the planet into oblivion in which
case we will be gone at the same time. Some may disagree with me, but REALLY think about it. If you consider all of the variables, it will become clear.

2.) ALL "pulchra" are protected if you read the law. This includes populations in the Santa Ana and Santa Monica Mtns, where the habitat is much different the the snakes occupy riparian areas and
chaparral. There are essentially no good outcrops there to hunt and hence no rock structure to "damage."

3.) MOST IMPORTANTLY: "Pulchra" as a subspecies has been debunked based on the Rodriguez-Robles, Staub et. al. study. So why protect them in 1 area when the same snakes (same clade by DNA)
inhabit many different
ranges from the San Gabriels to the San Bernardinos to the San Jacintos and others?

4.) The true goal seems to be to protect undisturbed rock in the Laguna Mtns. So why not just make it illegal to move any rock in the Lagunas? This seems like it would accomplish the goal most
completely.

Now despite all of this, laws are laws and must be followed. We are country of laws. Many are senseless, stupid, redundant, etc... But they need to be followed until changed or struck down.

THE BEST THING that could be done for zonata, HANDS DOWN, would be to allow captive propagation and selling of captive bred offspring within the state. This would greatly reduce demand, prices, and therefore, any incentive for commercial collectors/poachers to do their thing. It should be done for Gilas and other species in other states as well. Alterna are the model for this.

FH

User avatar
chris_mcmartin
Posts: 2441
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
chris_mcmartin wrote:
I think you were still on an FHF hiatus when I discussed my placing of AC on my local public land this spring. I had the permission of the natural resources manager (federal property); the AC was labeled letting people know it was part of a biological survey and had a contact number on it, and the cover is essentially taking the place of natural cover which has been destroyed in the past 7 years. Now that the grass has grown up all around it, if you don't know exactly where to look, you'd never know it was there.
Completely unrealistic set of circumstances for most areas; Except for the part with the grass growing up all around it, that seems to happen to most AC spots in the Spring.
Not necessarily...this is my first success story of my latest "idea"--to get more herpers (either individually, or as part of local herp societies) involved in doing such things--underfunded/understaffed agencies otherwise responsible for herpetofaunal surveys should be able to look at such guest help as force multipliers/fellow stakeholders, not the enemy who's just out looking to poach snakes for a quick buck.

I see more of a problem with coordinating to legally (i.e. with permission) place AC on privately-held land, whether that land is the back lot of a warehouse, or a ranch owner. Some folks will be more agreeable to it than others; what some landowners' fear is, is that a herper will discover a population of a species that if found on said land, would mean the landowner must now comply with "special" restrictions on what they can do with their own land.

User avatar
Andreas Kettenburg
Posts: 45
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:00 pm
Location: Ventura County, Ca

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg »

Chris, honestly, that simply would not fly in most areas of Southern California, at least not in Ventura or Los Angeles Counties.

Andreas.....

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by gbin »

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:Chris, honestly, that simply would not fly in most areas of Southern California, at least not in Ventura or Los Angeles Counties.
"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." -Richard Bach

Gerry

Brad Alexander
Posts: 71
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Brad Alexander »

GB = wackadoodle!

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3666
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan »

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:Chris, honestly, that simply would not fly in most areas of Southern California, at least not in Ventura or Los Angeles Counties.
I disagree. I have been recruited to take part in herp projects by scientific researchers before. In one case they just got my name off of californiaherps.com because they saw some relevant pictures of mine. As NAFHA grows in reputation I think this will happen more and more - NAFHA and NAFHA members have already been recruited to help survey for multiple conservancies in Southern California and for at least one state park and one state park, national park, and DofW outside of it. Some of those projects have involved placing AC with permission. You can look the projects up on the NAFHA page: http://www.nafha.org/

I think that far more projects like this could take place if we took the initiative. I think that Kent has other agencies already in the hopper for possible collaboration beyond the ones we've already worked with. Just look at what the Kentucky guys do - I do not think it's unreasonable that a lot more of that could be done here.

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3666
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan »

Brad Alexander wrote:GB = wackadoodle!

I think Gary's quote was right on target. There isn't all that much preventing us from doing those things except that not enough of us are trying.

User avatar
Andreas Kettenburg
Posts: 45
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:00 pm
Location: Ventura County, Ca

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Andreas Kettenburg »

I disagree. I have been recruited to take part in herp projects by scientific researchers before. In one case they just got my name off of californiaherps.com because they saw some relevant pictures of mine. As NAFHA grows in reputation I think this will happen more and more - NAFHA and NAFHA members have already been recruited to help survey for multiple conservancies in Southern California and for at least one state park and one state park, national park, and DofW outside of it. Some of those projects have involved placing AC with permission. You can look the projects up on the NAFHA page: http://www.nafha.org/

I think that far more projects like this could take place if we took the initiative. I think that Kent has other agencies already in the hopper for possible collaboration beyond the ones we've already worked with. Just look at what the Kentucky guys do - I do not think it's unreasonable that a lot more of that could be done here.
Jonathan, your absolutely right. But, for most people, who are not directly involved in the higher ranks of NAFHA, or who are not Biologists, Ecologists, etc, the odds of you marching into the Santa Monica Mtns Conservancy office requesting AND being granted permission to lay sheets of plywood and or tin onto any Santa Monica Mountain State Park Land is unrealistic.

Andreas.....

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3666
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan »

Andreas Kettenburg wrote:
I disagree. I have been recruited to take part in herp projects by scientific researchers before. In one case they just got my name off of californiaherps.com because they saw some relevant pictures of mine. As NAFHA grows in reputation I think this will happen more and more - NAFHA and NAFHA members have already been recruited to help survey for multiple conservancies in Southern California and for at least one state park and one state park, national park, and DofW outside of it. Some of those projects have involved placing AC with permission. You can look the projects up on the NAFHA page: http://www.nafha.org/

I think that far more projects like this could take place if we took the initiative. I think that Kent has other agencies already in the hopper for possible collaboration beyond the ones we've already worked with. Just look at what the Kentucky guys do - I do not think it's unreasonable that a lot more of that could be done here.
Jonathan, your absolutely right. But, for most people, who are not directly involved in the higher ranks of NAFHA, or who are not Biologists, Ecologists, etc, the odds of you marching into the Santa Monica Mtns Conservancy office requesting AND being granted permission to lay sheets of plywood and or tin onto any Santa Monica Mountain State Park Land is unrealistic.
That may certainly be true - I've never heard that the SMMNRA is a herper-friendly place. But that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other places where an amateur herper/herpers would be able to get permission to survey, especially if they developed a track record in that respect. And you bring up another good point - why not take advantage of those "higher rank" NAFHA people to get the permissions for you? If you have a project in mind, talk to an officer about it, see if they can get the permissions, and then you could organize an official NAFHA survey that's right in the area you wanted to lay boards and herp.

User avatar
FunkyRes
Posts: 1994
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:19 am
Location: Redding, CA
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by FunkyRes »

I asked East Bay Regional Parks and was told it was park policy to only allow any kind of survey that disturbs animals or habitats to those holding a valid scientific permit. And then, the project has to be submitted to the park for their approval, and is usually only granted when they have interest in it.

BLM land may be easier to get such permission, I do not know.

User avatar
jonathan
Posts: 3666
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by jonathan »

FunkyRes wrote:I asked East Bay Regional Parks and was told it was park policy to only allow any kind of survey that disturbs animals or habitats to those holding a valid scientific permit. And then, the project has to be submitted to the park for their approval, and is usually only granted when they have interest in it.

BLM land may be easier to get such permission, I do not know.
Have you looked into what it would take to get the appropriate permits? They could just be referring to the CA DF&G scientific collection permit, which is certainly something that is possible for a herper to get: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1476.pdf

I don't know too many of the details though - but there are herpers in California who have gotten them before. And I know of amateur herpers in California who have gotten permission to actively herp on prominent state parks too, so you're not limited to BLM land. I would also look into the smaller parks and nature centers, as well as extensive private land.

I'm not sure how touchy an institution EBRP is - they might be one that's less likely to collaborate with herpers. But we can work to make sure that we're on their good side. I distanced myself from another herp society when they organized a trip to one of EBRP's parks and then posted pictures and video of it on the internet. It showed them handling and posing a federally endangered species, mentioning an attempt to catch another federally endangered species, handling other species, putting federally endangered species in contact with other herps, carrying snake hooks, carrying containers, barehanding a rattler, walking through wetlands habitat, putting inverts and herps into containers with the impression they might be keeping them...I mean, seriously, if that's what EBRP thinks they're going to get when herpers come onto their property, it won't be surprising it they keep everyone out.

User avatar
Jeremiah_Easter
Posts: 353
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:48 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Jeremiah_Easter »

DF&G simply doesn't have the internal funds to get officers up there. It's that simple.
Yet they have the funds to deploy officer Chang to Whitewater? I don't buy the lack of funds statement.

If they wanted to patrol the that locality in the mountains it would be as simple as putting 1 or 2 officers there for two weeks of prime time. All they would have to do is stake out a few premium outcrops with Binocs, wait for a guy to bag a snake and then search him at his car. No pit tags or transmitters necessary. How much could that cost, really.

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Greed is sooooo ugly

Post by Fundad »

Hubbs and I walked right into a Regional park here in the LA basin with good habitat and asked if we could lay out boards. They thought it was a GREAT idea, and the very next week the park manager and I layed out 4 board lines..

That park is now getting a sample of snakes they never had before, and they love it.


Fundad

Me I still haven't been there, and have never checked the boards I layed out .. :lol:

Yet they have the funds to deploy officer Chang to Whitewater? I don't buy the lack of funds statement.

If they wanted to patrol the that locality in the mountains it would be as simple as putting 1 or 2 officers there for two weeks of prime time. All they would have to do is stake out a few premium outcrops with Binocs, wait for a guy to bag a snake and then search him at his car. No pit tags or transmitters necessary. How much could that cost, really.
Now Mr. Easter don't ruin this parade with common sense!! :thumb:

I had a hour or so talk with Chang one April night in WW. I told him right were to go in the San Jacintos to find Z hunters, and knew it was being pounded.. He had ZERO interest in it...

Fundad

PS I believe the only reason Pulcra are being poached for commercial reasons is because they are protected (which is a ridiculous protection), and have $$$ value because of it..

Post Reply