A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

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Kelly Mc
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kelly Mc » July 20th, 2017, 9:45 am

I dont care what human agency funds a study, or stands to benefit from the results of a study, but want to learn the results of the study.

Eliminating tamper - there are measurements that are what they are.

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Brian Hubbs » July 22nd, 2017, 10:49 am

Kelly Mc wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:But there's nothing "unscientific" about having a little class and restraining oneself when you see something you like, either.

Its funny because its non scientists who most fervently pace and repeat in tight affect about being unscientific but the scientists I have known, who are mostly older, have no self consciousness about expressing themselves in relaxed ways about the things they study and love.
Brian Hubbs, the above post, wasnt meant with you in mind or anyone specific in particular, especially the part about non scientists throbbing out about what's unscientific or not about biological matters. In such close proximity to your own post, it may have looked that way casually, which is the quandary of message board communication.

It would seem pretty clear though, that your style of relating, doesnt match up with being fervent, or tight in affect. I guess that was the given that didnt come through.

I just thought I should mention it. I didnt PM you with this, because the thing about message board conversations is something many can relate to, and there are also others who might have thought I was trying to offend you. Im not afraid of offending anyone, nor am I afraid of being offended. But I wanted to clarify.
Apology accepted... :lol:

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Kelly Mc
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kelly Mc » July 22nd, 2017, 4:16 pm

Thanks.
Its so impressive to have a famous author like yourself, accept my apology so becomingly.

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Brian Hubbs » July 22nd, 2017, 10:20 pm

well, that's just my becomingly personality at work...

...and so, the great circle of drag goes on...life drags on...and the sun is the moon...a bowl of yellow soup...and the stars are hip in the way out sky...can you dig it?

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Kelly Mc
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kelly Mc » July 23rd, 2017, 4:25 pm

I can dig it.

We all bump across this magic slate and we are all pretty lucky to talk to each other.

I want to ask you stuff all the time. Maybe someday I will get to ask you in person.

Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » July 23rd, 2017, 5:00 pm

I can dig it.

We all bump across this magic slate and we are all pretty lucky to talk to each other.

I want to ask you stuff all the time. Maybe someday I will get to ask you in person.
Yes, exactly! That is the beauty of this forum, the ability to make connections.
I've fought viciously (and, I'll admit, very ignorantly) with folks here, then met them in person and been totally ashamed of myself and way charmed by them. I was a complete a-hole to a PNW dude who knew waaaay more than I did, and he graciously showed me all around the PNW. I had been a total *itch and yet he took two days out of his life to show me amazing creatures.
I feel like almost all of us would get along like gangstas in person.
Something about the internet venue brings out the worst in folks sometimes. Definitely myself. I keep trying to get better about this, but I got a ways to go.

edited to add: Andy O'Connor rocks, as does Justin Michels. I have been horrible to both of them, and they have been wonderfully forgiving. Thanks, you awesome guys.

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Brian Hubbs » July 23rd, 2017, 5:56 pm

I don't know Andy...but Justin cracks me up...

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Kelly Mc
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kelly Mc » July 23rd, 2017, 6:07 pm

Tamara D. McConnell wrote:
I can dig it.

We all bump across this magic slate and we are all pretty lucky to talk to each other.

I want to ask you stuff all the time. Maybe someday I will get to ask you in person.
Yes, exactly! That is the beauty of this forum, the ability to make connections.
I've fought viciously (and, I'll admit, very ignorantly) with folks here, then met them in person and been totally ashamed of myself and way charmed by them. I was a complete a-hole to a PNW dude who knew waaaay more than I did, and he graciously showed me all around the PNW. I had been a total *itch and yet he took two days out of his life to show me amazing creatures.
I feel like almost all of us would get along like gangstas in person.
Something about the internet venue brings out the worst in folks sometimes. Definitely myself. I keep trying to get better about this, but I got a ways to go.

edited to add: Andy O'Connor rocks, as does Justin Michels. I have been horrible to both of them, and they have been wonderfully forgiving. Thanks, you awesome guys.

You are far too hard on yourself Tamara. Your sins slight if they truly exist at all, and an absence of pettiness would make them forgivable if they did.

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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by stlouisdude » July 29th, 2017, 6:52 pm

My view of herping ethics is you shouldn't waste resources, ie pickup giant rocks that you cannot control and let them fall on the inhabitants underneath them, disinfect tools between sites, and if you're too big of a baby to flip rocks with your hands, then maybe consider staying home :) I've also flipped with rakes and hooks and it just doesn't work very well for heavy objects and is likely to result in dead herps.

As far as the thinking that some lone wolf collecting a snake will result in a population collapse, I think this is really a lack of education problem rather than a real world problem. Imagine if some dumbass ran around saying if someone caught a catffish all the catfish would suddenly be gone. It's just not an informed view and it doesn't make any sense.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kelly Mc » July 29th, 2017, 7:29 pm

stlouisdude wrote:
As far as the thinking that some lone wolf collecting a snake will result in a population collapse, I think this is really a lack of education problem rather than a real world problem. Imagine if some dumbass ran around saying if someone caught a catffish all the catfish would suddenly be gone. It's just not an informed view and it doesn't make any sense.
Nobody thinks that though. Or at least nobody who has posted on this thread.

The decision to leave an animal in the wild, even if it is as easy to catch and put in a container as a snake is more about their own moral health than a population reality.

There seems to be a disconnect to that in these discussions, and its a basic tenet active in all human behavior.

Its not a judgement, just an observation I find interesting. Or is it being super jaded pro to only interact with reality using only a slender part of ones brain?

stlouisdude
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by stlouisdude » July 29th, 2017, 7:50 pm

Hmmmm, I don't think of it even as a moral issue but the value of collecting most native species is a consideration. For the most part, a native species with any real value in keeping and breeding is already done so in moderate to large numbers or is a protected species that you cannot legally or ethically collect anyway. The need to collect more of species already probably devalued to the millionth degree is certainly worth considering. Also worth considering is that snake fungal disease is an issue. Who wants the opportunity to get that going in their collection? There are plenty of reasons why collecting most native species is undesirable or unwise, but I've never felt morally one way or the other.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kelly Mc » July 29th, 2017, 7:55 pm

On a planet with millions of other species on it, anthropocentric preoccupation even as one puts out that they are interested in other species could be seen as unscientific, or at least out of contact with their own anthropocentricism.

Its not the anthropocentricism that is a problem, but the unawareness of being it. If one is unaware of one personal thought feature, they are unaware of others they have.

Who wants to be unaware? Wouldnt it be more lucid and authentic to say " What I want is is the most inportant thing"

At least thats a self actualized statement.

Just to clarify, I'm not directing the statement at you at all, S.L.Dude. Just another point of view from an angle of non utility per animal/nature/human relationship

I myself am interested in these issues as a long time keeper and vocational advocate of captivity, who has had some changes to my thinking per my own experiences.

It is surprising no one has called me a hypocrite in these kinds of discussions, it has been complex and I try to be as transparent and self interrogating as I can be, and I know I am perhaps expressing a chord others share, but do not feel comfortable sharing.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: A Discussion of Herping Ethics (warning: long winded)

Post by Kelly Mc » July 30th, 2017, 7:19 pm

stlouisdude wrote:My view of herping ethics is you shouldn't waste resources, ie pickup giant rocks that you cannot control and let them fall on the inhabitants underneath them, disinfect tools between sites, and if you're too big of a baby to flip rocks with your hands, then maybe consider staying home :) I've also flipped with rakes and hooks and it just doesn't work very well for heavy objects and is likely to result in dead herps.
The above stuff you wrote I am going to bet is because you dont want to cause harm.

Im going to bet you are careful and use skills you have developed over many treks and encounters, many rocks, many angles and terrains and that you practice these the same, whether someone is there to witness it, or not.

I am also going to bet that you dont do it to preserve a find for another herper in the future, but because you dont want to kill or cause potential agony to a snake by injuring it.

There is something that makes you work that way that comes from an impulse to not want to cause harm. Even if its only to one snake.

The thing I find interesting in a social sense and taking it a step further, to defer capturing a snake and disrupt its native existence for ones own purposes, has become a kind of taboo sensibility to express.

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