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 Post subject: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the most?
PostPosted: October 13th, 2012, 11:04 pm 

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 10:27 am
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Location: Kentucky
What months out of the year are you most likely to see a Timber?

I was thinking March-April in the Spring and August-September in the fall.

Are those months close at all?

Any help is great.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 14th, 2012, 3:38 am 
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Joined: June 25th, 2012, 3:08 pm
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Location: Lebanon Pennsylvania
You're pretty close, I see a lot still at their dens into May and early June.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 14th, 2012, 6:47 am 
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Location: Huffman (NE Houston), Texas
Depends on what part of the country you are in. Where do you live?


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 14th, 2012, 9:27 am 

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 10:27 am
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Location: Kentucky
I am in Southeastern Ky.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 14th, 2012, 11:22 am 
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Last edited by jgeorge on October 18th, 2012, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 15th, 2012, 5:02 pm 
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Here's one from today (Oct 15th) in eastern KY. This young one was found crossing a gravel road in the early afternoon.

Phil


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 16th, 2012, 12:54 pm 

Joined: March 16th, 2011, 10:27 am
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Location: Shawnee Hills, IN
great find Phil!


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 16th, 2012, 3:48 pm 

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If I had to pick one month it would be May.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 16th, 2012, 4:44 pm 
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I'd be careful with how much info you reveal in this thread...


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 16th, 2012, 5:03 pm 
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I second Mike's advice, but nobody pays much attention to that kind of caution...Brendan and I didn't even put that kind of info in our Rattlesnake book...


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 2:08 am 
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I'm not going to see a Crotalus horridus in any month in the near future, personally.

/just answering the question literally... :?:


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 12:03 pm 
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In Indiana, they are active until October.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 12:32 pm 
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Mike VanValen wrote:
I'd be careful with how much info you reveal in this thread...


Brian Hubbs wrote:
I second Mike's advice, but nobody pays much attention to that kind of caution...Brendan and I didn't even put that kind of info in our Rattlesnake book...


If someone only needs to know WHEN the best time to find these snakes is, AND that population is so low that the removal of a few females will affect it's survival, that population is already doomed. :(


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 3:50 pm 
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Well, by all means, let's help doom a few more then... :roll: It's one thing to say when is a good time to see a kingsnake, but another entirely for an animal that dens...at least on an open forum. We have no idea how many scumbags read this forum... :o I guess it comes down to how much you care about the animal and know which ones to keep quiet about vs. how much you care about sharing your wisdom with the world...


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 4:00 pm 

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Well said Hubbs- I think that last sentence of yours hit the nail on the head :roll:

John Vanek that's got to be THE MOST IDIOTIC thing yet I've heard you say on this forum. Really. Can you just stop commenting about this species, ok? You're not doing them any favors, not even yourself any at this point. Just stop.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 4:32 pm 
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I find nothing wrong with saying when horridus is active. The hard part of finding them is the location, not the time of year when they are active. A time period without a location is useless, but if you find a denning, basking, or birthing area you're bound to see one eventually.

I mean honestly, imagine if this person is someone who wants to find timber rattlesnakes, but has very little experience with them. The first question I would ask to find a species I am unfamiliar with would be When can I find them? Then you can look for suitable habitat at the right time of year.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 4:44 pm 
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Barry R wrote:
great find Phil!



Thanks Barry. Also found a pair of kings and an eastern milk. It was nice being out in the woods on a fine Autumn day.

Phil


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 7:17 pm 
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ugh wrote:
Well said Hubbs- I think that last sentence of yours hit the nail on the head :roll:

John Vanek that's got to be THE MOST IDIOTIC thing yet I've heard you say on this forum. Really. Can you just stop commenting about this species, ok? You're not doing them any favors, not even yourself any at this point. Just stop.


Yup, I hate timbers. I hate them so much that I devoted 6 months of my life to literally following them around daily on a conservation project. Those educational programs I do? Just for shits and giggles. Let's kill all the timbers!

In all seriousness, that information can easily be obtained from a simple google search or visit to a library. This is common knowledge available from a myriad of sources. There is no harm in divulging life history information. Poachers want specific localities, not general time periods.

Brian Hubbs wrote:
Well, by all means, let's help doom a few more then... :roll: It's one thing to say when is a good time to see a kingsnake, but another entirely for an animal that dens...at least on an open forum. We have no idea how many scumbags read this forum... :o I guess it comes down to how much you care about the animal and know which ones to keep quiet about vs. how much you care about sharing your wisdom with the world...


I love timbers, I hate to see them killed. However, I'm pragmatic, and viable populations are what count, not small isolated colonies of doomed individuals. :(


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 7:51 pm 
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John Vanek wrote:
I love timbers, I hate to see them killed. However, I'm pragmatic, and viable populations are what count, not small isolated colonies of doomed individuals. :(

:thumb: (Not to the idea of snakes being killed, John, but to your injecting some welcome reality into one of these threads that spins off into a panicked cry for secrecy.)

Brian, your posing these situations as being a case of "you're either with us or you're against the animals" is ridiculous. Plenty of folks don't agree with you concerning the potential harm that may come from not being so secretive about this stuff, so it's not a question of how much they care about the animals.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 8:27 pm 
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Umm. im really new to this forum and im not trying to ruin this post but i cant figure out how to post my own post can someone tell my how? thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 8:33 pm 
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kingsnake760, you just did...now back to our regular scheduled rant:

So it's a question of them just being wrong and stupid? OK, I'll agree to that...we've seen enough damage done out west from people who shared too much, despite what was on the Internet. We may not be losing a lot of animals from the overall population, but it still stinks when someone ruins a good spot that was only known to a few because someone needed to share info. This has happened to several boardlines and den sites in CA and AZ. Some of it by researchers too. My point was that we just don't need to add more info on a public forum. There is an old fashioned thing called doing research...and I don't think asking for clues on a forum is doing research. Ask a friend, read a book, search for that online info, but don't bring it up here where you have no idea who's reading this shit.

Gerry, you know I like you and appreciate your intelligence, but you grew up in an area where little damage can be done by this stuff. It is completely different in some other parts of the country. If Timbers are so safe, why are they protected in most states they occur in (not the Canebrake morph)? If they are so safe then why the laws? Are the laws wrong? Some are, but I don't know about this one...educate me, but don't talk to me about Canebrakes. Are timbers OK to screw with?

Oh yeah, if you think a poacher doesn't know where to look for a Timber den and can't be influenced by a date, then you haven't been around very long...the first thing a poacher figures out is "where", then he figures out when...You people must live in Dreamland...surrounded by the Good Witch of the North...


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 8:55 pm 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
If Timbers are so safe, why are they protected in most states they occur in (not the Canebrake morph)? If they are so safe then why the laws? Are the laws wrong? Some are, but I don't know about this one...educate me, but don't talk to me about Canebrakes. Are timbers OK to screw with?



Mostly dynamite. They literally dynamited the dens. That and NY had a $5 bounty for each snake until the mid 70's.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 8:56 pm 
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So...should people be able to screw with them now, or not?


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 9:23 pm 
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I don't deal in absolutes, I'm not a Sith.

In NH? Of course not. In PA? Sure, why not.

Image

Also, Brian, please realize that I respect your opinion, I happen to think you are highly knowledgeable. However, I'm allowed to be opinionated, I'm still young.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 9:44 pm 

Joined: June 20th, 2012, 10:27 am
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In my opinion giving out a location is worse than a date. Unless you know a spot then it won't matter if you go to the same spot all year round if it isn't a den it isn't. Anyone can look up what time they come out but I just wanted to see what everyone else thought would be the best. I had no idea a simple question would turn into what it has. It's not like I am putting locations up so everyone can know where to find them.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 17th, 2012, 9:56 pm 
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James: the point is, we don't know what you're doing...or who's reading the advice.

John said
Quote:
I'm still young.


Don't worry, that will change... :lol: :lol: :lol: and I want you to know this is not personal, it just happens to be a real sore subject out west, and we don't know a whole lot about your timbers, so we can only talk from experience with what we do understand. "Loose lips sink ships." Google that...


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 2:12 am 
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John Vanek wrote:
If someone only needs to know WHEN the best time to find these snakes is, AND that population is so low that the removal of a few females will affect it's survival, that population is already doomed. :(


John Vanek wrote:
I don't deal in absolutes, I'm not a Sith.

In NH? Of course not. In PA? Sure, why not.




I'm confused. Your first statement says that small populations are doomed. So why do you say in your second statement that the small population in NH should be protected? That seems contradictory. Isn't it doomed? Why bother? :roll:

RW


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 5:02 am 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
Well, by all means, let's help doom a few more then... :roll: It's one thing to say when is a good time to see a kingsnake, but another entirely for an animal that dens...at least on an open forum. We have no idea how many scumbags read this forum... :o I guess it comes down to how much you care about the animal and know which ones to keep quiet about vs. how much you care about sharing your wisdom with the world...


Brian,

I've been thinking a lot about things like this discussion. I think that some people think that everyone on this forum is on the level so to speak. That all of us want nothing more than to be able to enjoy seeing some herps in the wild. So the thought that someone out there would love to gain financially from any information that they can get doesn't register. I wouldn't call it stupidity, just naivety. I know you were young once too Hubbster.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 5:30 am 
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we've seen enough damage done out west from people who shared too much, despite what was on the Internet. We may not be losing a lot of animals from the overall population, but it still stinks when someone ruins a good spot that was only known to a few because someone needed to share info. This has happened to several boardlines and den sites in CA and AZ.

With all due respect Hubbsie, let's not confuse the issue....The OP asked for dates, not locales. I get what you're saying and am in full agreement with being discreet re: locales for sensitive species, but as I read this (to my mind) the OP asked for information that is readily available from any Google search, public library, etc.....I can do a Google search right now and in 3.5 seconds know the time period that these animals are active. From there, it's a simple matter of watching weather patterns and going out when conditions are favorable.

There's a world of difference between asking WHEN one might expect to find an animal and asking WHERE....

-Kris


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 5:49 am 
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This is ridiculous. He wants to know when the animals can be found. If he had known it would produce such a shitstorm, he would've googled the stuff and found out anyway. Disclosing activity patterns (in the broad units of MONTHS) will NOT drive horridus to (local) extinction.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 7:06 am 
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Being already labelled as a careless herp destroyer from the wrong side of the Atlantic (just kiddin'...), I wonder similarly - why can questions that can easily be answered by a Google search not be answered here?

Also, why argue about this over and over again? The fact that some people here like to find things out themselves, others don't mind all the help they can get, and a third, probably large group fits in between those two, seems to cause relentless disapproval of the former group for help seekers. But to what end? Why not let everyone herp the way they want?

I, for one, don't like people collecting herps (as is partially allowed in the US and not in Europe, hence a bigger seggregation between field herping and herp keeping in Europe), but I am not going to tell those who collect that they shouldn't. It serves imho little purpose if you already know that the repeated discussion will change no-one's mind.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 7:08 am 
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Also, I cannot shake the impression that the sensitivity only pops up on US posts.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 7:12 am 
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Brian, I grew up in southeastern MN not far from C. horridus' range there, my wife is from upstate NY, and I've also lived (among various other places) in northcentral FL and now TX (though I'm also just outside of the species' range here, I think), more or less the four corners of the species' extant range. I've spent considerable time at these places and could even direct you to dens I know of due to my own personal efforts at the northern locations. Moreover, I talk with people, read and think to fill in gaps in my personal experience, just as you do. I'm certainly no expert on the species, no, but I understand well enough what's going on with them. And by the way, I've also lived in and many times since visited AZ, and can readily say that more than any place else it holds my heart (and by no means just because of the herps there).

It's not so much a question of whether an animal is safe, but rather what if any risk comes to it via sharing information (not to mention the most basic information imaginable) about it in an internet forum. I understand that such information sharing is a bad thing from the selfish perspective of not wanting "your" spots sullied by having other people know about and visit them, but I see essentially no reason to believe that it is a bad thing otherwise. There certainly are species/populations/sites under various threats, but internet information sharing is not by any realistic means among those threats. Everything I know from experience and other learning tells me that my perspective on this matter is far more grounded in reality than is your own.

I've been around a fairly long time now, too (I first lived and herped in AZ in the mid-1980s), long enough to have gained at least somewhat of an understanding of the history of the perspective you and various others now hold. Secrecy has always been prized by some, but in demonstrably tangible terms it has always been simply a way for people to try to guard what they consider to be "their" spots. As the number of herpers out there grew, paranoia about their sullying folks' "personal" spots apparently grew accordingly. It wasn't enough anymore to keep one's secrets to oneself - new people keep showing up at these spots, after all, so someone else must be telling them about them! (despite another painfully obvious explanation) - so it became more and more important to not only maintain personal secrecy but to also try to swear everyone else to doing likewise. Now we're to the point where some seem to be pushing a sort of unspoken Grover Norquist-style pledge that ultimately has to be adopted by everyone that all herp hunting information will be jealously guarded. Of course, not everyone is so self-oriented in their herpetological pursuits, so how to persuade them to sign on? Too, lots of us view the personal boardlines that exploded in popularity in CA (and to a lesser degree elsewhere) as nothing more than unsightly, illegal dumps (which they are, when placed without the landowner's/manager's permission), so how to persuade people that they too need to be guarded? Obviously, the purpose has to be redefined as protecting the animals rather than protecting "personal" spots. Every situation has to be framed as "you're either with us, or you're against the animals."

I'm not saying that this was necessarily a conscious thing (though I readily believe that it was in more than a few people). People like to believe that their behavior is guided by higher purposes than things like selfishness, and are naturally expert on rationalizing their own views and actions in order to put them in the most favorable light possible. And other people bought into the "keep it secret to save the animals!" campaign after it was well underway. I understand that there are now plenty of true believers out there, no matter how they started. But I can't help but also understand that it's harmful rather than helpful, and I won't buy into it. Frankly, although I find its selfish basis perfectly understandable, I find the divisiveness that it produces when people get militant about it - as has become increasingly common here at FHF - downright dismaying.

Go ahead and again laugh off what I've said, maybe make another joke about how verbose I am (I certainly deserve that, anyway! ;) ). But I tend to think you're a plenty smart fellow, too, more than smart enough to realize there's considerable truth to what I've said if you'll only stop and actually think things through again. If you prefer to continue seeing things otherwise for whatever reasons then of course that's your prerogative, we can agree to disagree, but I'm asking you again, please stop with the divisive "you're either with us, or you're against the animals" crap. I'm not an enemy to herps, nor is John, nor are the many others that share my view. Stop attacking us as if we were.

John, the more I see, the more I like. Wildlife conservation benefits most from practical intellect and hard work, and you obviously bring both to the cause. :thumb:

James, welcome to the forum. Please don't take the postings of a few as representative of the majority (let alone all of us) here. We're actually diverse in both our interests and our views, excepting of course our overall interest in herps.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 7:33 am 
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MHollanders wrote:
This is ridiculous. He wants to know when the animals can be found. If he had known it would produce such a shitstorm, he would've googled the stuff and found out anyway. Disclosing activity patterns (in the broad units of MONTHS) will NOT drive horridus to (local) extinction.


differant climates, differant brumation periods. but there's also other facts to determine local status.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 8:20 am 
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Good lord. It might be a "harmless question that can be answered on google" but the possibility of it turning detrimental is real. The posts get more and more detailed, PMs are sent, and dens are visited in the spring. It has happened before and will happen again.

Newbies who have access to den sites can be a bit too enthusiastic in sharing this info. This is all I'm saying.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 8:43 am 
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You know, it's at least a possibility that if we all think hard enough about the sun exploding, it will actually happen. So don't do that! Oh no, too late, now I've actually prompted y'all to do it!... :shock:

Sorry for poking a bit of fun, Mike, and I mean nothing personal against you, but the simple truth is that most people prefer to use somewhat more rationality and priority than to play the possibility game. They shouldn't be attacked for that.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 8:47 am 
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Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Also, I cannot shake the impression that the sensitivity only pops up on US posts.


Show me a European forum with this many active field herpers that are herping Europe. Then I will tell you you'll see the same behavior. I believe that the Aussie's can be just as particular about locales as any one in the US, so I will politely disagree with this statement.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 9:26 am 
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justinm wrote:
Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Also, I cannot shake the impression that the sensitivity only pops up on US posts.


Show me a European forum with this many active field herpers that are herping Europe. Then I will tell you you'll see the same behavior. I believe that the Aussie's can be just as particular about locales as any one in the US, so I will politely disagree with this statement.



It is certainly more acceptable to post very detailed local descriptions for international destinations rather than anywhere in North America. If I did go to Australia, and gave a detailed description of an endangered herp location as part of a well written narrative, I highly doubt anyone would say a word about it. Here in the US you ask about times of year for a species that is doing just fine where the poster lives, and several people get upset.


Curtis


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 9:59 am 
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Good lord. It might be a "harmless question that can be answered on google" but the possibility of it turning detrimental is real. The posts get more and more detailed, PMs are sent, and dens are visited in the spring. It has happened before and will happen again.

Newbies who have access to den sites can be a bit too enthusiastic in sharing this info. This is all I'm saying.


Duly noted. Let me play devil's advocate for a minute....

Is it your contention then that what initially started as a harmless inquiry will invariably turn into a damaging "nail in the coffin"? If questions were getting too pointed, or the poster asking things that were not appropriate given the TOS, would it not make sense that at some point the answers would dry up?

I'm not going to argue that sensitive info should be guarded judiciously....I agree with that 100%. The question becomes what one considers "sensitive info".

In many cases it bacomes all too easy to rely upon the precautionary principle, while the aim of relying on such is completely lost.

-Kris


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 10:35 am 
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azatrox wrote:
Duly noted. Let me play devil's advocate for a minute....

Is it your contention then that what initially started as a harmless inquiry will invariably turn into a damaging "nail in the coffin"? If questions were getting too pointed, or the poster asking things that were not appropriate given the TOS, would it not make sense that at some point the answers would dry up?

I'm not going to argue that sensitive info should be guarded judiciously....I agree with that 100%. The question becomes what one considers "sensitive info".

In many cases it bacomes all too easy to rely upon the precautionary principle, while the aim of relying on such is completely lost.

-Kris


My "nail in the coffin" is not inevitable, but it is possible.(sorry Gerry) I merely suggested that I would caution how much info is revealed. And, no, it does not make sense that the answers would dry up. How many times has a long-time member suddenly posted a photo of a known landmark in conjunction with a sensitive species? Or maybe gave out a location that made us jump up and take notice? Take into account the new member who visits a timber den every year but does not really know the life history of the species, the laws, etc. They read this thread and are eager to share the info publicly.

For places where dens number in the single digits, I consider "month of most occurrence" sensitive info.

Gerry, I never attacked anybody, for the record.

You say...

Quote:
There certainly are species/populations/sites under various threats, but internet information sharing is not by any realistic means among those threats.


Really? Then why do Wildlife Officials spend time lurking here, and watching specifically for posts about Timber Rattlesnakes in states where they are endangered? Do I need to bring up the Massassauga incident again? Or the number of lurkers scrutinizing Pine Barrens herp photos and the info we post so they can go bag a pinesnake or a temporalis? Maybe it is a small problem and doesn't make a dent, but I herp in areas where internet photos and posts sometimes make it very easy for someone to grab a pillowcase and head out into the field.


Last edited by Mike VanValen on October 18th, 2012, 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 10:39 am 
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James1617 wrote:
In my opinion giving out a location is worse than a date. Unless you know a spot then it won't matter if you go to the same spot all year round if it isn't a den it isn't. Anyone can look up what time they come out but I just wanted to see what everyone else thought would be the best. I had no idea a simple question would turn into what it has. It's not like I am putting locations up so everyone can know where to find them.


james, you didn't do anything wrong. timbers can be a hot topic here. that was the beginning. i think the issue occurred when jgeorge mentioned an exact county in KY. some feel that this is too specific, and i agree. those who live in the area probably feel the same. those who do not, most likely, do not see it as a bad thing. i mentioned i agree, and i think in most cases, a county is ok, but timbers not so much. i think folks should just get used to mentioning an area of a state or the state only. if i said SE Rhode Island, that is a far cry from SE Arizona. some counties can be extremely small as well, and more harmful. i just think we all should err on the side of caution. nothing will probably come of it, but you never know. does it really matter in the thread whether the county was listed or not? it doesn't, and therefore should just be omitted. i see posts where specific state parks are mentioned as well. not a good idea. too small of an area. anyone with some time and understanding of satellite imagery can potentially find a den. just better to not narrow it down too much. make em work for it. also, i think what gets some folks annoyed is the fact that simple questions can be answered without asking on the forum. your question is a perfect example. no need to even ask. you easily could have done the work quickly yourself. i'm not scolding you either. you are posing a question amongst friends, and there is nothing wrong with this. many are concerned with good spots becoming well-known. if someone found one of my spots, i'd be irritated if i learned that it was given to them. do your own work. if someone found it on their own, i'd work with them, and later, buy them a beer. it took me plenty of time to explore a particular area via google, as well as just going there over and over in the course of two years. well, it took me this long to find that it holds a healthy population of timbers. unfortunately, i opened my mouth, and this spot was given to others. this was my biggest lesson learned. it may seem that people get hostile because their "spot" is no longer just theirs. understandable. i go to these dens and get peace of mind knowing that i am alone enjoying a great spot. it seems selfish, and the ways some handle these debates may reinforce this thought, but i'm pretty sure that the underlying reason is that they fear for the location that they feel close with. it ultimately is for the protection of the animals.

this debate always gets going. timbers are so widespread that many are affected by this topic. and keep in mind, where someone is located within said range will also determine how they react to the topic. it can get heated. look into locating past threads relating to uncommon species that occur in a small area. they typically don't exist. people here tend not to talk about massasauga rattlesnakes, eastern indigos, rainbows, etc. etc. there is a reason for this. pics may turn up periodically, but this is generally all you will see. and whatever you do, do not call bog turtles rare. :D :D :D

-ben


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 11:12 am 
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Mike VanValen wrote:
Gerry, I never attacked anybody, for the record.

You didn't, Mike, and I apologize if I gave the impression that you did. But you did/do argue on behalf of the side of this issue which includes people who do so regularly, as I'm sure you know even just from this thread.

Mike VanValen wrote:
You say...
Quote:
There certainly are species/populations/sites under various threats, but internet information sharing is not by any realistic means among those threats.

Really? Then why do Wildlife Officials spend time lurking here, and watching specifically for posts about Timber Rattlesnakes in states where they are endangered?...

I don't actually know that they do lurk here, let alone why. I would imagine, though, that any such who do are hoping to spot obvious law-breakers that they can get after, and maybe to identify general trends in our community that they think they should try to be on top of. Feel free to trot out whatever examples suit your fancy, but make sure that you also offer supporting data, citations or whatever to back up what you say, as that's what would be required to actually persuade me. Too, bear in mind that I don't surrender my thought processes to various "Wildlife Officials" any more than I do to various internet forum posters. I apply my own experience and other learning, I weigh the arguments of people I converse with and I make up my own mind.

Mike VanValen wrote:
... Maybe it is a small problem and doesn't make a dent, but I herp in areas where internet photos and posts sometimes make it very easy for someone to grab a pillowcase and head out into the field.

Change "small" to "essentially no" and I readily agree with the first part of that sentence because that's what everything I've experienced and otherwise learned supports, anyway, but as for the second part I'm afraid I'm not willing to take such a statement on your or anyone else's word (as I said, it's nothing personal). And then there remains the question of whether anyone actually does head out with pillowcase in hand as you fear. And then there remains the question of whether they have any perceptible impact on the affected populations at all, let alone cause them real harm...

Kris, it seems to me that the more committed a person is to the precautionary principle, the more s/he tends to believe us all to be precariously perched atop slippery slopes in every direction. Some folks appear to suffer an outrageous amount of undue anxiety - or maybe it's more accurate to say that they displace all of that anxiet from places where it is actually due (as there certainly are real problems we should be concerned about).

Ben, plenty of us base our beliefs on this subject on what a rational assessment of the available evidence tells us, not on where we do or don't live.

I've represented my view and had my say in this latest iteration of the great debate over herp hunting secrecy, so unless someone really wants me to address something specific with them, I'm going to bow out and let whomever have the last word. Just keep in mind, newcomers, that those who speak the most angrily or often on this subject don't really represent our community as a whole. Plenty of us just see all of this "need for secrecy" stuff as glorified selfishness.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 11:31 am 
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gbin wrote:


Feel free to trot out whatever examples suit your fancy, but make sure that you also offer supporting data, citations or whatever to back up what you say, as that's what would be required to actually persuade me.
Gerry


As someone who as been harassed in person by certain officials over what has been posted here, I politely decline to divulge any more information than that. I understand and respect your views but I'm not looking to persuade you. I know what I have seen and that's all that matters.

As for "glorified selfishness", I haven't visited a den in almost 3 years and couldn't care less if I never see one again, for the sake of the species.


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 12:37 pm 
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gbin wrote:
Ben, plenty of us base our beliefs on this subject on what a rational assessment of the available evidence tells us, not on where we do or don't live.

Gerry


Gerry, all i was trying to do was to give james an idea of the situation. he mentioned that he had no idea why his "simple question" got blown out of proportion. he's new to the forum, so i felt an explanation was due. the point i was trying to make, to him, was that while most within this group feel the same way, there are some whose perspectives are biased based on where they fall in the realm of t-rat range. my bias is based off wisconsin, where they are in more trouble than other states. i'm sure those in the NE probably feel the same as i. in no way was i questioning your rational assessment which, as you say, is based on available evidence.

like i said before, all i was trying to do was give james an idea as to what happened here. that's all. there was no print between the lines. i stand by what i said regarding location dictating passion. whether that's "fair" to the rational thinkers, i don't know. all i do know is that it just is. that's reality. lot's of people will say "just another black rat, ho hum", while i say, "awesome(high-fives), a black rat". it's all relative my friend.

EDIT: i read what you wrote to mike. really? this is what i was trying to get across to james. everybody is different, and influenced by different things. no big deal, but you got defensive with me for no reason. who cares whether i go with the heart, or you go with science. all i know is that long-term observation trumps short-term science in my opinion. what happens if the science you refer to was equal to the equivalent of one inch compared to the fourteen feet that it actually is. it holds no weight at this point. be careful assuming that the science you refer to is concrete. it may be faulty. there are a whole lot of studies disproving earlier assumptions these days.

-ben


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 1:14 pm 
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Fair enough, Mike, and again, I meant nothing personal in my words to you. My comment about glorified selfishness referred to the apparent overall basis for the "need for secrecy" viewpoint, not the motive of each individual who holds it. As I said previously, I understand that the viewpoint has a number of true believers. I admire the passion of such people even though I see it as unfortunately misplaced, and I'm pretty nearly always happy to agree to disagree about something, anyway. I just get perturbed about how absurdly often this debate is triggered here these days, and how willing some who hold the viewpoint are to vilify anyone who doesn't.

Ben, I understand what you were trying to do, and I understand your motive was benign. But you simply were and are wrong in what you're suggesting; there are plenty of us who are endeavoring to apply more objective reason to this subject, not simply abiding by whatever bias our current location might encourage us to adopt. I can assure you, just for one personal example, that I felt very much the same way about the supposed need for secrecy concerning AZ species - which are most often the impetus for these ceaseless, pointless and often shockingly vicious debates - when I lived in AZ as I did when I lived in MN, WI, FL and do now that I live in TX. I have always respected others' request for privacy when it comes to herp spots they've shared with me (in AZ or elsewhere), but only in deference to their wishes concerning "their" spots and not out of any believe that the herps or spots would somehow benefit from secrecy.

I also don't believe that any one of us really knows (let alone can speak with any authority about) how most of us feel on this or just about any other one subject, and think that any statements otherwise should be viewed with suspicion given how often folks put forth the idea that their view is in the majority (without evidence) and must therefore somehow be better (without evidence). For another personal example relevant to the current discussion, over the years I have heard by private communication from a number of people who share my view about the "need for secrecy" but prefer not to say so in a public forum due to the venom that is often directed toward anyone opposing that supposed need. It seems quite clear that we're a diverse group and hold diverse views.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 1:21 pm 
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Some of us have been around longer than the rest of you, and we've seen what dates, times, and habitat info can do to certain species. This is why the CA chapter asks members to NOT post their finds at the same time the find was made-instead, wait until the off-season. I really don't care what the rest of the world does, and the 20 or 30 timbers I've seen in the wild do not make me a timber expert. Go ahead...screw yourselves...I could care less now...but I will never discuss the sensitive dates for species I consider sensitive. In fact, I have many Naherp.com records marked "restrict public access to this record" just to protect a sensitive date or a county. On those records, all you will see is the name, state and picture of the animal. The real truth is, as Justin said, we are not a level playing field, and I would say that despite what you might think you know, most of you have no idea when and where to find most animals in quantity, and that's a good thing. I feel better and sleep better knowing I am not contributing to the sun exploding at any of those spots. So, go ahead, argue with me some more and see where it gets you... :lol: 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 1:36 pm 
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So now I'm simply too young and inexperienced to know how foolish I am? I wish! :lol:

Don't worry, Amigo, it's all good.

:beer:

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 1:46 pm 
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You seem to suddenly be too young and ignorant to understand that the U.S. and it's herps are not a level playing field...yeah...it's all good... :lol: :o :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 2:14 pm 
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gerry, you say that you "understand what (i was) trying to do, and i understand your motive was benign". huh? explain to me why you had to step into a comment that was obviously meant for james? i don't get it. why do you care? you are acting like i personally attacked you in some way. if it was "benign" in your opinion, why do you act like it wasn't? let james get out of it what he wants to. it wasn't meant for you in the first place, hence "james" at the beginning of the post. you are the one who decided to insert yourself into a situation that clearly did not involve you. go away.

-ben


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 Post subject: Re: What months are you going to see Crotalus Horridus the m
PostPosted: October 18th, 2012, 2:18 pm 
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Unfortunately nothing is a secret and even the most novice of us can figure out the when, and even the where, by just a few mouse clicks....or even a field guide. We don't have to make it easier by giving exact locations, but in my opinion most reptile enthusiasts know that snakes are best found in the spring and fall months in NA.

-Jake


Last edited by JakeScott on October 18th, 2012, 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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