Scarlet King eggs

Captive care and husbandry.

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RUSS
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

No, the hatchlings from last season are feeding aggressively on FT pinks and their growth is slow too. Just metabolism I would suspect.

RUSS
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Crimson King
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Crimson King »

In my experience with SK, I have had about as many "tricks" work as you could imagine....To make it short here, I'd always suggest trying hatchling anoles at first if they are available to you....What many many snakes will respond to is the saliva of their preferred food. Keep a live skink on hand and rub appropriate food item in the mouth of the skink.....not much has worked better for me. The same technique works like a champ for s. hognose (and the rest of the Heterodons) only you use a toad...
:Mark
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

RUSS wrote:No, the hatchlings from last season are feeding aggressively on FT pinks and their growth is slow too. Just metabolism I would suspect.

RUSS

Are you saying that the growth of the mouse tail guys and the aggressive whole food guys(which includes the liver - primary source of D3 instigating all bone, muscle and tissue development) is comparable? I am just trying to understand how that is possible?
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

No, what I’m saying is that even after they are on a more appropriate and nutritious food item they still seem to grow rather slow. Of course they’re small animals to begin with, even at adult size, so if you take their growth rate and minimum adult size into account mathematically (by percentage growth rate) it’s probably as aggressive as any other triangulum. The problem with switching them to pinkies now is that they still are not large enough to even take a newborn.
RUSS
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

I was thinking of it more in terms of important tissue production and organ development than size in mathamatical rate. I know the tail thing has been done for many years, tho I find it personally archaic - snakes do seem to 'catch up ' after a dietary shift. In other verts such neonatal diet often has more apparent, lasting consequences. We dont know about snakes. We can believe, but we dont actually know finer details or gaps, if any in tissue formation and integrity.


I would like to amend my nerdicus post -pls dont see a tone, there isnt any.

They are gorgeous and you must be incredibly dedicated. My God but they are so pretty like unwrapped candies.
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

I would agree that tail feeding is a minimalist method as far as nutrition goes, but more of a necessity than archaic. It’s really more of a matter of practicality; I can only collect so many ground skinks. I swear when I was younger I had a faster grab, lol.

They are super cool little snakes, more work than more than my other colubrids, but worth it.

RUSS
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rpecora
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by rpecora »

What an great thread this is/was!
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Dan Krull
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Dan Krull »

YES. not much to a tail. Good calcium though. Switch to pinks dude. They look big enough. They can wolf down larger prey than you think. Try just the head of a thawed, day old pink. A lot more fat, protein, etc in one head than 10 tails. :) You're doing awesome by the way. I just skimmed the thread. Nice work, and gorgeous snakes.

Dan
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by ratsnakehaven »

I'm glad this strand made it back to the top. SK's have always been a favorite of mine, although I have little experience with them in captivity. Your animals are absolutely stunning. Easy to see why someone would be enamored with them.

Terry :beer:
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

Boy... those SK's are nice. Are they commercially available? Love to have a pair someday... even neo's... as I'm guessing they'd like Desert Night lizards as much as skinks... and I have no problem finding plenty of those.
I now have almost exclusively tri-color milks (Sinaloans, Nelson, Hondos, ect)... but only hatched one neo out this year... but a beaut...Image
She wastes NO TIME chowing down every live pinky mouse I give her... next year I'll move her up to F/T rat pinks. :D jim
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

I have tried switching them to pinks, so far only one has been able to choke one down. Another tried but just ended up wrestling with it for a while. The tought part is getting new borns in my area and my last mouse order showed up with near fuzzy size pinkies (wtf). I'll try getting a pic of one on a mouse.

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gbin
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by gbin »

Yup, I had difficulty finding genuinely newborn pinkies even by mail order back when I was working with scarlet kings, and from the perspective of a young scarlet king, pinkies grow appreciably in their first few days of life. (Though sometimes The Mouse Factory would make a special collection of them for me, nice people that they were.) It ultimately prompted me to go back to breeding my own, though there are many things I dislike about maintaining a rodent colony in my home.

Jim, there are virtually no captive-bred scarlet kings available for sale, though you'll encounter a fair number that are supposedly captive-bred but are actually wild-caught. And when you do find captive-bred animals for sale, they're usually still tiny hatchlings that require considerable care - someone such as yourself would doubtless do fine with such needy little creatures, but I have to believe they fail fairly quickly on most of their new owners. I meant to tackle this by specializing in providing captive-bred animals that had already made the switch to pinkies, but most people didn't want to pay anywhere near what such animals were really worth when they could get wild-caught (not to mention supposedly captive-bred) animals much cheaper elsewhere. I would have continued with my program regardless, as money wasn't in the slightest my main motivation (I really just enjoyed the challenge of working with the species) - heck, I ended up just giving the animals away, anyway - but as well-meaning but inexperienced people often do, I tried to do too much too quickly and got burned out from it. Worse, I felt the burn just as I got incredibly busy with work, so I simply shut down my breeding program and as I found homes for my animals I eventually quit keeping herps entirely.

Now I enjoy working with them vicariously. Say, RUSS, isn't it time for an updated set of photos?... ;)

Gerry
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

Thx Gerry,
I've gotten to the point where the dozen snakes I own all eat F/T rats, which I get for free from the Psych Dept at the University I graduated from. (I keep a large Burm/Boa JUST to eat all the Lg/Jumbos I get, to save more room in my freezer, for the smaller mice/rats... :crazyeyes: )
Although I gotten away from keeping 'lizard eaters'... I would make the exception for confirmed cb SK's. Are they very fussy about what type of small lizards they'll take? More specifically... do you think they would take desert nights?
Come to think about it... I do have a little Night Snake, that I go out and get night lizards for... takes me like an hr, to get a month's supply... :crazyeyes: jim
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gbin
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by gbin »

I tried a variety of lizards, but with mixed success at best. (I never tried night lizards.) It seems clear to me that almost all scarlet kings prefer skinks, most especially ground skinks, and some are so strong in their preference that they feed at best inconsistently on other lizards. Somewhere above in this thread I cited a scientific paper which bears out their preference for ground skinks, too. But... also above you'll see a few other people mention having more luck than I've had with other lizard species. So I reckon the thing to do would be to try it and see what happens. Maybe you should send a few night lizards to RUSS or someone else working with scarlet kings so they can give them a try before you yourself acquire any scarlet kings that aren't yet feeding on pinky mice?...

Gerry
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

I'll get some new pics up after Christmas, I have a houseful right now that need close supervision (my parents, lol).

As for lizard preference the stock around he definitely prefer skinks, though the species doesn't matter. I've tried anoles and sceloperus with zero takers. It would interesting to see if they would take a species from outside their range but I have my doubts.

I do question offerings of CB SKs, especially at some of those prices. These are a labor of love, but really only a tad more than say alterna. I guess it's the species specific starter food that's a hang up, where as most alterna can be rather liberal with the first lizard, if not a pinky, they accept.

RUSS
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

And since the Mouse Factory has been mentioned, has anyone found an alternate supplier that's even close to their quality since they have closed down? I won't name them but the couple I have used so far may be acceptable but crap as far as I'm concerned.

RUSS
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

gbin wrote: Maybe you should send a few night lizards to RUSS or someone else working with scarlet kings so they can give them a try before you yourself acquire any scarlet kings that aren't yet feeding on pinky mice?...
Gerry
I like the idea of getting a pair, that I know takes Night Lizards, although I have to admit that given this lizard's recently documented 'familial relationships'... I'm less and less inclined to collect any. Silly... I know... but I feel guilty for breaking up a little 'lizard family'... :roll: :lol: :lol: jim
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gbin
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by gbin »

I'm sorry, RUSS, but I haven't been keeping herps for a while now and don't know about current mouse suppliers (I know no one matched The Mouse Factory in quality so far as I was concerned when I still had herps, though a number of suppliers were cheaper). Hopefully someone else will chime in with a good suggestion for you.

I suppose it is a bit silly, Jim, but I know just how you feel. When last I reared mice, they were oldfield mice (Peromyscus polionotus), a native species in which monogamy and biparental care are the norm. It made me feel especially bad to break up those little mouse families every time I'd harvest pinkies, too.

I've always thought night lizards to be especially cool in other respects, as well. I reckon I'd have a tough time feeding them out.

Gerry
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

gbin wrote: I suppose it is a bit silly, Jim, but I know just how you feel. When last I reared mice, they were oldfield mice (Peromyscus polionotus), a native species in which monogamy and biparental care are the norm. It made me feel especially bad to break up those little mouse families every time I'd harvest pinkies, too.

I've always thought night lizards to be especially cool in other respects, as well. I reckon I'd have a tough time feeding them out.

Gerry
Interestingly enough, investigation of the hormone Oxytocyn, as the 'love hormone' started with noted differences in Maternal care and monogamy in Voles (i believe) occurring on opposite sides of a river (Rio Grande?).
Yeah... Night lizards are pretty unique... a very nearly 'placental' reproductive system, producing only 1 live birth offspring, followed by familial relationships. Where you find one, it's mate and a neo--> juvie are usually present, as well. So rare in reptiles... :shock: :) jim
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Cole Grover
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Cole Grover »

Russ,

Glad to see those things doing so well for you! I knew they would though, with your experience rearing other "difficult" species. The last few of my triangulum hatchling lizard "hold-outs" from this year are finally on scented. It's a good feeling getting the little guys to take off, isn't it? Wait for a year and they REALLY start taking off.

Here's an F1 Cherry Co., NE Lampropeltis triangulum multistrata hold-back from last year, just post-hatch. It's pushing 10 inches now!
Image

As for feeding lizards, I do it, too. I really, really like geckos, but keep a large group of frozen Hemidactylus in the deep freezer for feeding and scenting. I feel a lot better using an invasive, plus, in my experience, Anolis doesn't work worth a damn... and I've tried LOTS of times. Skinks are great, but we don't have any around here.

Jim,
Xantusia are awesome. If I was looking for another breeding project, they'd be on my list. I've never seen a wild one, so you're lucky as hell to have them in your yard!

-Cole
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gbin
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by gbin »

Breathtaking, Cole! Are its pale bands still so beautifully white today?

Funny, I couldn't get any of my scarlet kings to show the slightest interest in Mediterranean geckos, be they big or small, live or dead, intact or split open, whereas I had at least a couple of scarlet kings that would eat anoles.

Gerry
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Cole Grover
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Cole Grover »

Gerry,

Thanks! Yeah - on that particular animal, the bands have remained pretty white. On one of its siblings that I also held back, however, they've "newsprinted" up quite a bit. Interestingly enough, as I'm sure you've noticed, "newsprinting" or off-white banding doesn't always render the animal unattractive. I'll post some photos in another thread so as to not derail this one for Russ.

-Cole
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

Cole Grover wrote: Jim,
Xantusia are awesome. If I was looking for another breeding project, they'd be on my list. I've never seen a wild one, so you're lucky as hell to have them in your yard!

-Cole
I see so many... it's hard not to take them for granted. But ALWAYS high on the list, for herps to see, when I give visitors a tour of my area... :D Them... and legless lizards... everybody wants to see those... :lol: :lol: jim
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Cole Grover »

Jim,

What species are those in your area?

Thanks,
-Cole
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

Desert Night Lizard (Xantusia vigilis vigilis)
http://www.naherp.com/vouchers/21813-20345.jpg

I am however, only 1 1/2 hrs from the larger more 'desirable' Granite Nights... :D jim
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by rpecora »

hellihooks wrote:I am however, only 1 1/2 hrs from the larger more 'desirable' Granite Nights... :D jim
More desirable in what way?
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

rpecora wrote:
hellihooks wrote:I am however, only 1 1/2 hrs from the larger more 'desirable' Granite Nights... :D jim
More desirable in what way?
Awesome to see? bigger... more striking, pattern-wise? Harder to find, perhaps, with their limited range? What did you think I meant? Worth more on the black market? :shock: :roll: :lol: :lol: jim
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rpecora
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by rpecora »

hellihooks wrote:
rpecora wrote:
hellihooks wrote:I am however, only 1 1/2 hrs from the larger more 'desirable' Granite Nights... :D jim
More desirable in what way?
Awesome to see? bigger... more striking, pattern-wise? Harder to find, perhaps, with their limited range? What did you think I meant? Worth more on the black market? :shock: :roll: :lol: :lol: jim
You didn't specify. My first thought was you might have been stating it as food item given some of the context of the thread. Were you trying to take this thread in a different direction, sorry?
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

Oh yeah...DUHHH that makes sense. Naw... just wandering off topic, as usual... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: I'd keep Granite Nights, if it were legal... and would NEVER CONSIDER using such a cool herp as a feeder... :lol: :lol: jim
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Cole Grover
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Cole Grover »

Those things are killer, Jim. Be thankful you've got them around!

-Cole
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

When I started my z on pinks I snapped off the forelegs at the shoulder and it went much smoother. Its not the head, but how the little mammalian forelegs are positioned pointing upwards that can pose a discouraging ergonomic. A dead lizards forelegs lay flat and neat laterally. I still snap the forelegs off if I am feeding more than one, as it goes down much faster and he doesnt carry it around and get stuff on it. Then I hand him the next one. I feed him with forcep because its pleasant for me that he associates me with food. When he is tooling around z town and Im in my animal room - where I keep other things as well , like cords and tools, sometimes I will look and he has balanced himself comically on a ledge nearest to where he sees my form, or go near his cage and he will Stop! and whip a little neck curve toward me. He is funny. Its not often a snake is funny.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

They snap off better if its while still frozen. They are too fragile after thawing to not to pull fascia apart
RUSS
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

Sometimes the obvious is the inobvious, that's an awesome idea. I'm going to give that one a try tonight.

RUSS
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

I hope it works! Russ I have been searching for a frzn mouse company to replace The Mouse Company too. I have tried 2 that met the same criteria, as far as raising their own and vacumme packaging.

They are ok, but The Mouse Factory was Incomparable. Angelic rows of immaculate mice. Pinkies like tiny fresh dolls. They also went out of their way in service. Like for your quest to find the tiniest day olds.

There is no way i have the time and energy to raise my own for my guys - but if i could i would.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

* Mouse Factory - hey what happen to the edit button?
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by hellihooks »

Kelly Mc wrote:* Mouse Factory - hey what happen to the edit button?
I couldn't help but wonder if your Avatar still has his arms... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:
And... can I now describe you as 'disarming"? yuk yuk HNY, babe... :lol: :lol: jim
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

only my cousins Barbie would know for sure ;)
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

Just to go off topic for a second - once I read this study comparing the way tomboys play with their action figures compared to boys. They noticed that boys liked to do more of the warrior style play - while tomboys did things like rescue their other toys etc. I remember being somewhere in the middle.

Also - does anybody remember
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

Zeroids!!
They had interchangable robot hands and were badass.



now my post just posted when i went to full edit. Whats up?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Kelly Mc »

Hey you guys i knew this guy who bred brevicaudatus on a large scale, and what he did was he used his bathtub. He lined the bottom with leaf litter and put bunches and bunches of twigs in and just let the shower drip constant. They bred like crazy he didnt even separate the babies. They just did their thing. I asked him where he took a bath and he didnt answer LOL!
RUSS
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

Well, she produced again last night, just three eggs this time. I'm still working with a pair of the hatchlings from last season, both feeding on unscented pinkies now.

Image

RUSS
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gbin
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by gbin »

Very nice! :thumb:

Gerry
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Cole Grover
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Cole Grover »

Rockin', Russ. That's a stellar critter. Most of my milks are fattening up and are loaded with eggs.

-Cole
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by Zach_Lim »

Gorgeous animal, Russ. Something about how bright red elapsoides heads are!
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Very good. Thanks for the update.

TC
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

And hatching today.

Image
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by dylank »

I want to get my boy eating pinkies soon he is a hernando county locale
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by jayder85 »

I love the white banding they have when newly hatched. A newly hatched SK is when they are at their most beautiful IMO. Of course I don't recall seeing an adult that wasn't stunning as well!
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by rtdunham »

i've only kept half a dozen, and they were south florida specimens. They preferred skinks, but ate anoles. I repeat this FWIW: I had a friend many years ago in California who told me of feeding hatchling SKs for years by tubing not groundup pinkies, but egg yolk. He described a work flow that was fast and easy, but most important--he SAID--resulted in rapid growth and in babies that routinely graduated to pinks before they were a year old. I remember him saying he thought he could have switched them over more quickly, but the growth on egg yolk diet was so good he saw no reason to end it earlier than that. The clutch or two of babies i hatched (this was before my subsequent conversations with others with more experience) were fed anole parts, went to other owners fairly quickly so I can't report on longer-term outcomes. I have a buddy who bought a wild-caught SK this spring; I sent him a couple dozen frozen brown anoles, and he says his animal has fed on them routinely.
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Re: Scarlet King eggs

Post by RUSS »

Yes, I've talked to a long time SK breeder that preferred tubing too just to get them up to pinky-eating size. I haven't had any problems starting them on skink scented tails, but obviously that takes a tad more planning and does make for a slow start.

RUSS
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