HELP! I Have the M-word

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AndyO'Connor
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HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by AndyO'Connor »

MITES! I haven't had mites in my collection (that I know of) for years. I have been perplexed why two snakes have not been eating for me recently and then I noticed one doing the type of moves that a snake with an itch will do, like it was trying to shed, but it shed 2 weeks before, and upon closer inspection, she's got them bad. I've since noticed them on the other snake, and at least one other cage across the room has them. Not all of the snakes have it bad, but I need help.

I did some reading and found that a combination of olive oil treatments and dry ice bombs in the cages would be a great start, and also read about predatory mites, fighting mites with mites. Has anyone tried these methods? I have very naturalistic cages and although it's harder, would like to not have to trash everything and go with paper towels, and want to avoid chemicals if possible.
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Nshepard
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Nshepard »

I got those last year - still don't know how (only time I've ever gotten them). I used NIX (lice shampoo) in a diluted mix, worked extremely well. None of my snakes were affected by it. I did have to do two doses. My first use I soaked everything with it, did not rinse. I found one live mite about 3 months later, then did another round and haven't seen a live one again. Read below:

http://www.albertareptilesociety.org/caresheet/Onix.pdf
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by AndyO'Connor »

Thanks! I saw a youtube video on it. Do you just treat the animals? My problem is I have very naturalistic setups and full out overhauls would be a pain for me. I know exactly where mine came from... Some feeder lizards from a local pet store. I gave them a once over and didn't notice them at first until it was too late.
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Cole Grover
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Cole Grover »

AndyO'Connor wrote:Do you just treat the animals?
No. You'll have to treat the entire enclosure. The life cycle of mites involves dropping off of their host and laying eggs in the corners of the tank, in cracks in wood, etc. If it were me, I'd have already ripped those cages apart and bleached, burned, and/or tossed all of the non-herp components in the trash. I haven't had mites in years (since I was given a snake purchased from a well-known reptile retailer out of California as a gift), but it was devastating. Even with a mostly "sterile", lab-like set-up, it took three treatments of Provent-A-Mite (the only thing I found that actually worked) in each and every enclosure. You can't spray it on the animals, but it WORKS in the cage. To rid the animals themselves of the problem, I used a rather strong solution of liquid dish soap (Dawn) and tepid water. Each snake received a several hour daily bath. Be aware, though, that Provent-A-Mite can kill any tarantulas or other inverts in your herp room and might be just as bad on frogs.

Though some other well-respected people (Nate, for example) seem to have had good luck with either lice treatments or various herbal extracts, none of them worked for me. If you're willing to wait long enough to see if they work, give them a shot. Be prepared, though, to go "chemical" all over their asses.
AndyO'Connor wrote:I know exactly where mine came from... Some feeder lizards from a local pet store.
I doubt it, man. The mites that most lizards get are a lot different than Ophionyssus natricis, the "Snake mite" of horror stories. O. natricis is pretty host-specific on snakes.

These things are awful - when I had them, I almost liquidated my collection. Here's maybe the best on-line article I've found on them: http://www.vpi.com/publications/the_lif ... ake_mites/

-Cole
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

We have over a hundred cages at my work and just cannot allow a mite infestation. with good quarantine procedures we manage to prevent most outbreaks but from time to time it does happen.

Remove snake from infested cage to a clean quarantine cage and soak as often as possible. There is a chemical called prevent-a-mite available commercially at pet stores and vets but at 15 to 20 bucks a can it can get pricey. Instead go to your local outdoors store and buy Coleman gear & clothing insect treatment. It has the exact same active ingredients as provent-a-mite in the same concentration but is much much cheaper like 5 bucks a spray can. remove water dish or kill snake! then follow directions for application on can for provent-a-mite. After several daily cleanings switch to diluted bleach for cleaning. Soaks should get rid of most mites on snake. Check around snakes eyes and lips for crafty mites and remove all you find. When you suspect there are no more mites replace snake into cleaned cage and give fresh water. Clean quarantine cage with mite procedure.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

hopefully you won't have to trash or replace your natural set up. I would soak rocks, branches, logs etc. in mild bleach solution for days and toss out all substrate live plants etc. Chemicals suck but Provent-a-mite or Coleman (same stuff) is the only way to be sure you nuked them for good.
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justinm
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by justinm »

Would Permethrin spray work? I know what it did to Andy when he sprayed it on his lady bits, LOL. Do you remember that! You wasted the only potable water we had in BFE after doing that. OMG yes, yes you need to get some permethrin Andy.
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gbin
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by gbin »

Provent-A-Mite definitely works safely and effectively when used as directed, but it is unreasonably expensive and the manufacturer is unreasonable in other ways, as well. It's good to hear that there's now a readily available alternative. Great tip, Jeremy!

Gerry
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Cole Grover
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Cole Grover »

Jeremy Westerman wrote:buy Coleman gear & clothing insect treatment. It has the exact same active ingredients as provent-a-mite in the same concentration
Bad-ass! Thanks for the tip. Hopefully I'll never need it again (my collection is essentially "closed"), but that's great info.

-Cole
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CCarille
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by CCarille »

I have dealt with mites on several occasions from wild-caught animals coming into the collection. Quarantine, as mentioned, is one of the best ways to limit spreading. If you see adults in a cage or two, you can expect them to be in every cage.

I know you'd like to keep the natural cages, but they are much harder to "clean" of mites. Paper towels works the easiest. I've tried before to clean natural tanks and invariably the mites come back. Hard to get down into layers of soil.

As mentioned, Provent-a-mite works really well - just make sure to thoroughly air out any container before adding animals back in and keep it away from lizards and inverts. The Nix mixture works as well, and can be sprayed on animal and substrate - let dry before adding water back. I would also suggest soaking all the animals and then soaking them all with a small amount of betadine/water mixture - this will remove a lot of mites and also help with wounds caused by them.

Best of luck, I know mites suck!
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by AndyO'Connor »

justinm wrote:Would Permethrin spray work? I know what it did to Andy when he sprayed it on his lady bits, LOL. Do you remember that! You wasted the only potable water we had in BFE after doing that. OMG yes, yes you need to get some permethrin Andy.
Yeah I remember, thanks for announcing it LOL. It didn't burn or anything at first, but it was Pingleton I believe that said it was military strength and could cause infertility if sprayed directly on the skin... And I had so many ticks imbedded in THAT area that when they let go, THEN it burnt like hell.

Thanks everyone for the tips, I will tackle it hard this weekend.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

justinm wrote:Would Permethrin spray work?
Provent-A-Mite, Coleman gear & clothing insect treatment, Repel PermaNONE (at walmart), Equate Bedding Spray, Nix and most headlice shampoos and sprays all have the same active ingredient. That said, I would use water/bleach solution afterwards and air out completely before putting snakes back in cleaned out cages.

PAN Pesticides Database - Chemicals

Chemical Name: Permethrin
CAS Number: 51877-74-8 (trans-isomer)
52645-53-1 (mixed isomers)
54774-45-7 (cis-isomer)
U.S. EPA PC Code: 109701
598600 (Old US EPA PC Code)
CA DPR Chem Code: 2008
Molecular Weight: 391.28
Molecular Structure: Image
Use Type: Insecticide
Chem Class: Pyrethroid
Other Names for this Chemical
(3-Phenoxyphenyl)methyl cis,trans-(+-)-3-(2,2-dichloroethenyl)-2,2-dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate , 02008 (CA DPR Chem Code Text) , 02008 (CA DPR Chem Code) , 109701 (US EPA PC Code Text) , 109701 (US EPA PC Code) , 2008 (CA DPR Chem Code) , 2008 (CA DPR Chem Code) , 3-Phenoxybenzyl (+-)cis and trans*-3-(2,2-dichlorovinyl)-2,2-dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate *(max cis 40% min trans 60%) , 3-Phenoxybenzyl 2,2-dimethyl-3-(2,2-dichlorovinyl)cyclopropanecarboxylate , 3-Phenoxybenzyl 3-(2,2-dichlorovinyl)-2,2-dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate , 3-Phenoxyphenylmethyl-3-(2,2-dichloroethenyl)-2,2-dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate (mixture of 40% cis and 60% trans isomers) , 51877-74-8 (CAS number) , 51877748 (CAS number without hyphens) , 52645-53-1 (CAS number) , 52645531 , 52645531 (CAS number without hyphens) , 539 (PDP Code) , 54774-45-7 (CAS number) , 54774457 (CAS number without hyphens) , 598600 (Old US EPA PC Code) , 598600 (US EPA PC Code Text) , 598600 (US EPA PC Code) , AI 3-29158 , AI-29158 , Ambush , Anomethrin N , Antiborer 3768 , Atroban , BW 21-Z , Chinetrin , Coopex , Corsair , Cyclopropanecarboxylic acid, 3-(2,2-dichloroethenyl)-2,2-dimethyl-, (3-phenoxyphenyl)methyl ester (9CI) , Cyclopropanecarboxylic acid, 3-(2,2-dichlorovinyl)-2,2-dimethyl-, 3-phenoxybenzyl ester, (+-)-, (cis,trans)- , Diffusil H , Ecsumin , Ectiban , Efmethrin , Eksmin , Exmin , FMC 33297 , FMC 41655 , Indothrin , Ipitox , Kafil , Kavil , Kestrel , m-Phenoxybenzyl 3-(2,2-dichlorovinyl)-2,2-dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate , Matadan , MP 79 , NDRC 143 , NIA-33297 , NRDC 143 , Outflank , Outflank-Stockade , Perigen , Perigen W , Permanone 10 , Permanone 40 , Permasect , Permethrin , Permethrin , Permethrin total , Permethrin Total , Permethrin, cis isomer , Permethrin, mixed cis,trans , Permethrin, mixed cis,trans (ANSI) , permethrine , Permetrin , Permetrina , Perthrine , Pounce , PP 557 , Pramex , R-86557 , S-3151 , SBP 1513TEC , SBP-1513 , Spartan , Stomoxin , Talcord , Use code no. 109701 , WL 43479
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Kelly Mc
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Kelly Mc »

Dont forget the floors - mop them with a strong solution of proven choice. When we are pulling materials and snakes out during procedure there is a link of weakness there. Mites also tend to move Up - so a wipe down of shelves and walls, or at least a light contact spraying is worth doing.

If there is a primo wood artifact you would like to re introduce - one that your snakes really like and you dont want to trash - submerging it 130+ degree soak - to the core - will do the trick. You dont ever want to use a 'cide on wood. Residuals. I like wet heat opposed to dry for wood (like oven - but its fine for rock) Dry heat deteriorates the character of the wood into a fibrous shadow of its former self. Such great advice on this thread about putting snakes in a clear field quarantine cage, aggressive full-on address AND airing out and being mindful of residuals. So many forums I have seen people suggest the agents and their use like it was lollipop breath - "spray the bedding and the snake . . " it makes me cringe.
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gbin
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by gbin »

You know, many years ago when I was young and dealing with my first case of snake mites, I treated it very effectively then by simply hanging a No-Pest Strip (it's not at all the same product now that it was then) in the middle of the closed room and leaving it there until I finally bothered to take it down several months afterward. That's right, I didn't dab or soak the snakes, I didn't sterilize and discard their stuff, none of that; I simply hung that smelly strip and let it do its pesticidal work - and it did indeed work (and fast, despite my laziness about removing it afterward)! I've always wondered since, though, what I might have done to my snakes thereby. Even more, I've wondered what I might have done to myself, as in those days I kept my snakes in my bedroom, and hanging that strip in the middle of the room meant hanging it directly over my bed. :shock:

Gerry
VICtort
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by VICtort »

Gerry and I are pretty old school I guess...I too used the no-pest strip effectively 25 years ago when dealng with mites on a newly acquired Boa constictor. I put a 2" piece in a plastic jar/lid with plenty of holes drilled in. I kept it in the enclosure with the snake for 16-20 hours at a time, once a week for 3 weeks. It worked well and no known side effects to the Boa. I also cleaned thoroughly the cage and surrounding area with permethrin bug spay, the stuff that is derived from chrysanthemum flowers. I have heard various warnings, but as so often happens, no details, folks repeating what they heard elsewhere, etc. I think problems may be the result of gross overexposure, using a whole stip for a week at a time etc. I remember seeing these strips in restaurants, reptile rooms, etc. back in the '70's, they were popular and we bought them at Shell gas stations. I kept the unused portion in the freezer, tightly sealed. Of course, they might well be delteterious to amphibians etc. Maybe you could remove your vertebrates and put them in a hospital cage and treat, and put the pest strip pieces in the heavily planted enclosures for a long time to kill the mites within and the eggs soon to hatch? If someone knows that pest strips are definately bad, please advise me, I can only say it worked well for me and back then, was regarded a viable option. How about that airplane spray they use on international flights coming into the USA? I know David and Tracy Barker of VPI used to recomend it, but I have no personal experience with it. good luck, and let us know what works and doesn't...it could be us next. Vic
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Kelly Mc
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Kelly Mc »

Dichlorvos strips can be a very valuable tool - it works very effeciently without contact and I believe it can be used safely - all of the poisons mentioned have risks. Its not a one size fits all problem. I think its hard not to panic. But understanding mites and their lifecycle and preferences is the best agent of all. Mites themselves are very fragile - I have found specific agent to be secondary to strategy of approach, or War :x
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Nshepard
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Nshepard »

Cole Grover wrote:
AndyO'Connor wrote:I know exactly where mine came from... Some feeder lizards from a local pet store.
I doubt it, man. The mites that most lizards get are a lot different than Ophionyssus natricis, the "Snake mite" of horror stories. O. natricis is pretty host-specific on snakes.
Though this statement is 100% true, I will say that it is possible for the snake specific species (O. natricis) to hitch-hike on lizard feeders. But you might want to consider where you get your bedding substrate from also, I've heard of snake mites hitch-hiking that way!
AndyO'Connor wrote:Do you just treat the animals? My problem is I have very naturalistic setups and full out overhauls would be a pain for me. I know exactly where mine came from... Some feeder lizards from a local pet store.
I treated the animals and ALL of the cages (inside and out, top and bottom) and the area around my cages (floor). I took heat panels off and sprayed them down, threw out all wood based bedding (regardless if dirty or not....lost half a bag of new clean shavings). Mites are the main reason I do not keep snakes in wooden cages nor furnished cages (planted terrariums). Kept all my snakes on WHITE PAPER TOWELS, so that I could easily spot mites (again, soaked down with diluted NIX). I used plastic water bowls for easier cleaning (16oz deli cup with no holes sitting inside of a PVC coupler). Out of the 20 snakes I had at the time I only ever saw mites on 4...but still every treatment I treated all snakes. You miss one mite, you'll end up doing everything all over again.

In your shoes I'd pull everything out of the naturalist setups (throw everything wood away), soak them down and put them somewhere away from your snakes, or even outside in the heat. House your snakes in some temporary sweater boxes. Snake mites will eventually die off when they can no longer find a snake host, but this will take a long time. Excessive heat kills mites also.

Again, I am not saying this way is the best way, its just what I did and it worked great for me. Other methods could very well be better.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by Kelly Mc »

Its a big mistake to think natricis will not infest lizards. Though they like some species more than others. Tiliqua are a favorite. And if there are lizards with natricis on them - they will quickly bee line to any colubrids.

I have worked in reptile rooms that were mixed wooden enclosures, glass tanks, open screen naturalistic, spartan lrg boid, and neo sweater boxes. I have noted no difference in infestation favor - whatsoever. I have noted proxy to original carrier and species to be relevant. And I have also observed tanks on stainless steel rolling tables to remain isolate in infestation. Perhaps locomote of mite not condusive. ?
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CCarille
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Re: HELP! I Have the M-word

Post by CCarille »

I know I've gotten mites from infested feeder geckos/anoles.
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