Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

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Lucas Basulto
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Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by Lucas Basulto » August 16th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Hey all, a buddy of mine managed to get a clutch of nigrita x californiae hybrids and I noticed that they sorta look like splendida. Is this typical? Has anyone else tried this pairing? They are interesting so I was just curious to see if anyone had any comments or ideas on the pattern similarities.

If anyone has a picture of an adult it would be interesting to see!

Parents:
Image

Examples of the young:
(they are ALL quite similiar and really only get darker or lighter I took the lightest and darkest of the clutch)
Image
Image

Thank all!

Lucas

VICtort
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by VICtort » August 16th, 2013, 9:22 pm

I have seen similar crosses in past...with roughly similar results. Sometimes they look more like californiae, roughly similar to the now no longer valid subspecies known as "yumensis". Since you show an interest and wonder what these phenotypes will produce, be sure to look at Hubb's book on kingsnakes or other sources and see the natural occurring intergrades down in SE Arizona and adjacent Mexico. A lot of variation makes them fascinating and hard to categorize. Keep in mind folks have been breeding L. getula since the mid-60's, and a lot of these X's have been tried. There are gene packages that are expressed in variable and unpredictable ways with some of these captive X's. I am guessing that Cal king in your photo likely has a highly manipulated and unusual genes, probably resulting from decades of captive breeding. Thus you could get some curious offspring that may not be typical of a wild intergrade...some folks get real fascinated with this.

hellihooks
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by hellihooks » August 17th, 2013, 6:38 am

We were raffling off very similar 'mutts' at the Anaheim show last year, for stopping by the Nafha Ed booth. ;) jim

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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by Zach_Lim » August 17th, 2013, 10:19 am

hellihooks wrote:We were raffling off very similar 'mutts' at the Anaheim show last year, for stopping by the Nafha Ed booth. ;) jim
Hope they were raffled off as Pets for kids with no intention of breeding them...or as Indigo food!

Hybrids..... :roll:

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pete
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by pete » August 17th, 2013, 12:46 pm

They are just intergrades that occur naturally , not hybrids.

repaphin
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by repaphin » August 17th, 2013, 1:46 pm

Hope they were raffled off as Pets for kids with no intention of breeding them...or as Indigo food!
Haha i really don't like hybrids either. or intergrades.

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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by hellihooks » August 17th, 2013, 2:24 pm

Zach_Lim wrote:
hellihooks wrote:We were raffling off very similar 'mutts' at the Anaheim show last year, for stopping by the Nafha Ed booth. ;) jim
Hope they were raffled off as Pets for kids with no intention of breeding them...or as Indigo food!

Hybrids..... :roll:
Of course... given away as 'mutts'... but nice-looking little kings... what WAS weird was this guy won one... then his girlfriend won one as well... :shock: :lol: :lol:

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justinm
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by justinm » August 19th, 2013, 6:21 am

These don't look like holbrooki to me. They look like funny splendida, just light colored desert kings. I'm not sure what he was hoping for with this pairing though?

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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by hellihooks » August 19th, 2013, 7:29 am

repaphin wrote:
Hope they were raffled off as Pets for kids with no intention of breeding them...or as Indigo food!
Haha i really don't like hybrids either. or intergrades.
Naturally-occuring intergrades rock... and when you think about it, typically harder to find than 'pure' Ssp's. The intergradation zone may only be a mile or two wide, while the 'parent' ranges can cover 1000's of sq. miles. BTW... ALL WW rosys are naturally occurring 'mutts'. :thumb: jim

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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by AndyO'Connor » August 19th, 2013, 7:35 am

Justin, who mentioned holbrooki?

Anyways, as others have mentioned, it is more or less to be expected to get "splendida looking" babies from this pairing as it is more or less a naturally occurring intergrade (in a vague sense). Also as a couple mentioned, since they are technically the same species, they aren't hybrids, and don't look like a different species, if you changed the colors to black and white and got rid of the patterns, they are all Lampropeltis getula

Aaron
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by Aaron » August 24th, 2013, 5:10 am

L. g. nigrita often produces splendida-like babies, both in the wild and in captivity. I think some taxonomists where even considering that nigrita might just be a melanistic splendida.

I don't like calling manmade crosses intergrades. I believe intergrades is a term that should only apply to wild snakes or captive snakes that actually are locality specific to an intergrade zone. It took a long time for wild intergrades to look like they do and I don't think one can simply recreate it in captivity in one generation.

Jlassiter
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by Jlassiter » September 6th, 2013, 8:48 pm

I have some very similar I just produced but mine are from some F2 Green Valley, Arizona getula.
As everyone knows that area is a convergence of three getula phenotypes (splendida, nigrita and californiae). One of the wild caught pair that produced my breeding pair of F1s was a nigrita phenotype and the other was a splendida phenotype. Some of the siblings of my breeding pair of F1s had some californiae influence/characteristics.

There are some characteristics resembling californiae with these....Look at the white coloration on the brows, post oculars, nostrals to prefrontals, labials and the faint "V" on the base of the skull.....One has some banding going on. These are very similar to the now defunct "yumensis" kings.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Jlassiter
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Re: Hybrid Lampropeltis looks like another species?

Post by Jlassiter » September 6th, 2013, 8:49 pm

Parents to those posted above can be seen here:

http://coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com/SPLENDIDA.html

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