Breeding Papuan Taipans

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Shane_TX
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Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by Shane_TX » October 7th, 2013, 7:17 pm

HN hot topic it seems.

Considering that this forum is in fact representing Herp Nation and snakemastermyke and etc. and etc. Does the U.S. herp world really feel that there is a popular need to breed Papuan Taipans? I ask an honest question.

Personally, it's about the last thing that I want to see from a herp organization centered in the U.S.

Respectfully,

Shane

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nhherp
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by nhherp » October 8th, 2013, 11:02 am

Absolutely. From a business/consumer standpoint ..Anytime a commodity can be manufactured/produced to offer a better product for the consumer it is good... correct.?

From a conservation aspect. Yes...There is a need in that it offsets Wild Caught importation and the natural population explotation. I would much rather see healthy, captive bred snakes being sold then Wild Caught, parasite ridden, non acclimated cheap ones . Cheap snakes tend to end up in the hands of the inexperienced keepers.

If you are bringing up the age old argument of hot herps and captive keeping, I personally have no problem with people keeping them.

I think the media has 'stigmatized' those who do keep venomous and made it seem like only an abnormal antisocial person would keep them.
The herpetological world now seems to be buying into the media propaganda and further dividing itself, instead of demanding creation of legal and economical means of obtaining and owning venomous animals. One type of group willing to sell out another under the false belief they will save themselves.

To imagine fieldherping through the current medias viewpoint of any person who would associate themselves with reptiles. - Why would a rational person risk their lives by wandering through the desert mountains on isolated loose rock strewn hillsides to find and photograph 15" rattlesnakes.? Endangering themselves and rescue personnel while creating massive expense in cost of rescue.
I know it hasnt happend... yet.

-N-

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chrish
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by chrish » October 8th, 2013, 11:24 am

I have no problem with people being allowed to keep and breed venomous animals as long as they are willing to take full responsibility for the consequences of their hobby should they occur.

For example, I think keeping and breeding venomous snakes should be treated at least as seriously as we treat driving a car. You should have to take a course and then demonstrate competency and then be given a permit. Your permit ought to be renewed every year with recertification/testing every 5 years or so.

And you should also have to register each individual animal that you have. They should all need to be pit tagged and registered with local animal control. And if one of your dangerously venomous animals is found escaped (dead or alive) you should be liable for a HEAVY fine ($10,000 seems reasonable). You should be required to maintain the appropriate liability insurance. If someone gets bitten and injured or dies by an animal under your care, you are criminally and civilly responsible.

In other words, you are responsible for those animals to the other people who live around you. If you aren't prepared to be responsible and demonstrate that you are, you shouldn't be allowed to keep them. You can't reap the benefit without assuming the risk as well.

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Scott Waters
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by Scott Waters » October 8th, 2013, 1:13 pm

Shane. The piece is a keeper experience article on Breeding Papuan Taipans. I don't see where we suggested people keep them, etc. "Does the U.S. herp world really feel that there is a popular need to breed Papuan Taipans?......we dont' run articles solely based on what is popular, clearly! LOL We do, and will, but as a general rule we try to find unique things. Ball Pythons? Not unique, but some of the interesting facts will be run.

In terms of popularity, we have a GREAT thing happening in January at the Reptile Super Show in Pomona, CA. We are handing out 10,000 copies, FREE, to attendees of the show. This will be a "special edition" of the mag, geared specifically toward that demographic but done in the thorough Herp Nation style. "Herp Nation Magazine", the general subscription print, is different and will remain the varietal that we've set it up to be. Our way of trying to bring quality content to all demographics. Looking forward to it. Gonna be fun!

We will take note of your opinion of the article. Thanks Shane! When are you going to submit something for print? What interests you?

scott

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by chris_mcmartin » October 8th, 2013, 2:49 pm

Regarding the "US" aspect--I was under the impression "Herp Nation" did not imply a traditional, political-boundary-type nation, but rather a large group of people sharing a common interest... 8-)
Scott Waters wrote:In terms of popularity, we have a GREAT thing happening in January at the Reptile Super Show in Pomona, CA. We are handing out 10,000 copies, FREE, to attendees of the show. This will be a "special edition" of the mag, geared specifically toward that demographic but done in the thorough Herp Nation style. "Herp Nation Magazine", the general subscription print, is different and will remain the varietal that we've set it up to be.
I can't speak for everyone, but I would LOVE to see a copy of this edition--would it be possible to get a digital version to current subscribers, as an example of HN Media's outreach?

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by Kelly Mc » October 9th, 2013, 8:50 am

nhherp wrote: Cheap snakes tend to end up in the hands of the inexperienced keepers.

Who decides that I wonder. About who is experienced enough for what i mean. Pretty much what I see across board is, other than someone in the process of acquiring their first snake ever, they dont consider themselves inexperienced.

Jimi
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by Jimi » October 10th, 2013, 12:29 pm

I have no problem with people being allowed to keep and breed venomous animals as long as they are willing to take full responsibility for the consequences of their hobby should they occur.

For example, I think keeping and breeding venomous snakes should be treated at least as seriously as we treat driving a car. You should have to take a course and then demonstrate competency and then be given a permit. Your permit ought to be renewed every year with recertification/testing every 5 years or so.

And you should also have to register each individual animal that you have. They should all need to be pit tagged and registered with local animal control. And if one of your dangerously venomous animals is found escaped (dead or alive) you should be liable for a HEAVY fine ($10,000 seems reasonable). You should be required to maintain the appropriate liability insurance. If someone gets bitten and injured or dies by an animal under your care, you are criminally and civilly responsible.

In other words, you are responsible for those animals to the other people who live around you. If you aren't prepared to be responsible and demonstrate that you are, you shouldn't be allowed to keep them. You can't reap the benefit without assuming the risk as well.
Philosophically I agree with the main thrust here - people need to take some responsibility for their own and others' safety. I also agree that it is not unreasonable that government or a trade association help individuals assume and maintain some of that responsibility (via e.g. licensing that includes 1) some sort of periodic collection inventory, 2) safety- and animal-welfare-oriented caging & facility specs, and 3) regular and "pop" inspections).

I would also point out, firmly, that 1) society already has ways of imposing responsibility for gross or petty negligence (lawsuits, fines, imprisonment, etc), and 2) we all have to accept some degree of risk in life. And let each other do that for themselves. (For example, I would not appreciate being fined for an accident I personally suffered, that put nobody else at risk.) So, I would urge some restraint in curing problems that, thus far, haven't really presented (I know of no cases where an escaped venomous reptile has harmed "an innocent victim" in the US - unlike the case with giant constrictors).

Some of the prescribed details are problematic. For example - PIT tagging. I assume the purpose is to be able to prove ownership in the event of an escape from the facility, and subsequent recapture. There are other ways to do this, that do not expose the animal or the handler (owner, vet, whatever) to the hazards of this procedure. I would start with a facility that is well-hardened to outward - or inward - breach. As for unique ID, how about molecular approaches, which would also be helpful in the event of provenance questions elsewhere? (Where'd ya get that animal? CBB or maybe poached?) Also, consider the liability taken on by the state in requiring PIT-tagging be done to every single venomous reptile in captivity. There will be an accident rate associated with this procedure - accidents that would not have happened without the procedure being forced upon the regulated community. Who picks up that tab?

The comparison with driving is inapt - virtually everyone wants to drive, virtually everyone gets out on the road as a passenger or a driver on a regular basis, we Americans drive about 3 trillion vehicle-miles a year so the exposure is constant and horribly high, and in consequence we die in numbers exceeding 30,000/year. And don't forget sub-lethal maiming and crippling, property damage losses, etc. We regulate the hell out of driving because IT CAUSES REAL HEALTH PROBLEMS to our society. Venomous snakes in captivity (or the wild) just don't present real health problems to our society.

Finally - the thing about cheap snakes. A major determinant in the price equation is demand. Demand for venomous snakes is low. There just aren't many people who are interested. I'm comfortable helping those few people not constitute a real threat to themselves - or more importantly, others - but I also urge folks to not put the hurdle so high that venomous enthusiasts simply duck under (ignore) it. Back to the driving analogy - we don't demand everyone have the eyesight and reflexes of a teenager. If we did, we'd just have a lot of people driving without a license. Instead, we have license requirements that are "good enough for what we need them to accomplish" - a fair and workable balance between personal freedom and collective security.

Let's not violate the principle of proportionality. It is a gross injustice to crush the personal freedoms of those who pose no threat to our collective security. Even if we're just crushing a few oddballs who want to do stuff most people don't & never will understand.

Cheers,
Jimi

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Sam Bacchini
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by Sam Bacchini » October 10th, 2013, 1:57 pm

Very well put Jimi.

Regarding the article and it's inclusion in the magazine I was very happy to see it. Even though I may have no intention of ever working with this species I find it facinating to read about. It's the kind of article that makes Herp Nation such a great magazine.

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justinm
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by justinm » October 10th, 2013, 2:09 pm

I know I'm far from eloquent but I have to ask why does anyone really care about breeding Taipans. This has to be a very small niche of hot keepers willing to take on this risk. So for me this isn't an article I'm remotely interested in. I can't even imagine the difficulty of trying to feed and care for some of the most deadly hatchlings in the world. If you think this is going to sell magazines and is worth the calculated risk I get it, but for me it's not something I would read. They're really not even that attractive of a snake to be honest, I don't see the draw to this species that you're hoping for. I am gathering that Myke wrote it? So it must be another favor you're doing for him. Scott I'll say this you must be one hell of a loyal friend.

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Sam Bacchini
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Re: Breeding Papuan Taipans

Post by Sam Bacchini » October 10th, 2013, 2:30 pm

Myke had nothing to do with it. The author is not from the U.S.

Regarding the widespread interest in the subject, you may find it interesting to note that Issue Number 6, which was entirely dedicated to venomous species, was one of the fastest selling issues to date, and was the first to completely sell out.

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