Looking for feeding syringes

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Joseph S.
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Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

Anyone know of a good source for feeding syringes for tiny snakes? I recently acquired some baby Dasypeltis and would like to get some weight on them. Some of them have been eating regularly for the previous owner and so have grown well, and some have not(particularly some that have more kinks).

I recall starting a thread about kinked snakes and tubes a while back and some of you suggested stainless steel bulb tipped syringes.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

Tongs.com has 14 GA. They are a handy multi purpose size. Luer tip syringe can be acquired from most vets. Bird supply also have.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

Hmmm...would you reccomend the straight or curved model?

Also-how small is 14 gauge? Like a Q-tip? A couple of these snakes are not much bigger around than a bootstring.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

If you need smaller go to Chis's Squirrels And More. But the holes are tiny, they must be carefully enlarged. I have a weird tool obscura that I use, I don't even know what its called, but it works and I test the surface against my tongue for rough tags. But you could have them enlarged at any jewelers, or use a very small jewel bit with a dremel. If you don't enlarge them your slurry will have to be too thin. A 16 GA is probably what you need. They don't need enlargement for passage of well blended slurry but are tighter than a 14 GA. They are 3" too. 4 " are made but difficult to obtain outside veterinary sources. All smaller gauges will need enlargement for other than true liquids.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

Easy to impress a slight curve in the straight ones so it doesn't matter. :)
VICtort
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by VICtort »

Kelly's source (squirrels) and Kelly were helpful to me in learning this skill ( which I never thought I would need...). The 4" no.12 is what I use, which is Too Large for your stated purpose/ egg eaters(?). Go a couple sizes smaller. BTW, The Squirrels source was least expensive, I searched around, they were best and fast to deliver.

I like straight, not curved for snakes. Get the thread on type syringe (rather than male/female type).

You must make the slurry very homogenous, as otherwise fiber, tendons, hair etc. will clog the small orifice. Even so, I have to depress the plunger on the 20ml. Syringe hard...

I lubricate the feeding. " needle " with vegetable oil. If you are like me, this will be awkward at first, but you will get skilled and fast with practice. The snake seemingly becomes tolerant as well.

Your great challenge is too provide a highly viscous feeding slurry that provides adequate nutrition, which might be easy if it is egg. I add some fine Ca powder too.

Contact me PM if needed...and we will discuss on phone. Kelly taught me what I know and she has more experience, so heed her advice. It would likely give you confidence to have someone explain it rather than just reading from a manual.

Judicious use of this technique would likely save a lot of problematic neonates. Don 't wait too long to get started...(but if somebody did, go ahead, you have nothing to lose...)

Good luck, the world needs more Dasypeltis! You may already be a pro at this , in which case maybe someone else will benefit from our posting.

Vic
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Joseph S.
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

When I was doing this for my own CBB babies I used catheter tubing. It was fairly large diameter but so long as I was gentle the babies fared very well.

I suppose 16 gauge would be a nice compromise. I'm assuming these are compatible with the luer lock syringes on the site?

I do remember doing injections of antibodies on sharks and we had issues with the finer gauge needles clogging with cells unless you shook the contents very well(dance around lab singing "Shake it!").
VICtort
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by VICtort »

I think these feeding needles are easier to use than the French catheters, though they too prove useful, especially when dispensing medication.

To open the mouth of tiny snakes is a challenge. You want to avoid trauma...so think how to do it. I use a thin, smooth piece of plastic, a very thin credit card size, but thinner than most credit cards, it is a business card, ye best start looking... If someone has a better way, please tell us.

I have never worked with Dasypeltis, do they eat anything besides eggs? If not, egg will be easy (?) to administer. If you use anything else, you must thoroughly blend it, to a pudding like consistency. My first attempts were frustrating, as my efforts to make a super slurry caused clogging. Careful attention to NOT including even the tiniest feathers, hair, tendons, salmon skin, helped.

Good luck, I hope you will update us on this not commonly captive bred species . It seems adults would be one of the easiest species to keep, provided you have source of fresh bird scent eggs .

Regarding kinks, in Drymarchon the consensus is kinks are caused by incubation errors, too high temps are suspect. Good news is minor kinks have virtually disappeared with growth, the keepers can not palpate or remember where the kinks were. Maybe an Xray would show?

Good luck, Vic
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

A tip for opening mouths : If you lightly slide the wet or lubed stem of dosing needle up along the labials the snake will part its mouth as you reach the bulb, which is then slipped in laterally and turned into insertion.

If more assertion is needed, a Butlers G.U.M stimulator, with tip dulled by heat (tapping against a heat bulb works nicely) comes in very handy. After the mouth is parted let it go to rest on your thigh, or table. If you need assistance, choose your helper carefully.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

For clarity - the bulb is brought and slipped in from the stem, not the other way around. Its a passive motion- like the action of bringing the bottom of your spoon across the rim of a soup bowl. It is a delicate action that once the angle and technique sets in, works the best for an expedient feeding.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

Hello Kellly/Vic:

I ended up ordering the 16 gauge 3 inch...which I feel is a nice compromise between smaller neonate sized snakes as well as tubing larger juveniles. In case anyone is wondering a quick google will give you outer diameters of needle gauges-a 16 gauge is 1.6mm OD. This is much thinner than the catheter tubing I was using-which was probably closer to 2.5-3 but also was flexible. So I'm betting 14 gauge would work as well for this sp. I'm hoping this will work out well for both me and the snakes involved. Smaller gauges meant the needles would be shorter-which would not be ideal for larger snakes,

Previously I was using a small credit card to hold the mouth open, whereupon I was place the catheter in and then change grip to remove card and then hold snake and use syringe. I'd imagine most would need 2 people to do it this way but I was somehow able to do it with only 2 hands. Dasypeltis mouths are very elastic/flexible so I am betting the smearing technique will probably work as well.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

Cool Joseph.. Smearing technique is a perfect descriptive.

Yes there are snakes that are touchy, parting gingerly and helpfully, and others like Lampropeltis, that are tiny little sports car doors.

Very exciting keep us updated on your brood, I hope you are planning to examine them very thoroughly post hatch for spinal anomaly, if they aren't present it could clue to other acquired etiology. Important stuff. Pioneering, truly!
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chrish
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by chrish »

I have had success over the years using plastic disposable 1ml syringes and plastic teat canulas. These are sterile, plastic, cheap, and disposable. Furthermore, because the tip tapers, you can actually trim the tip if you want a larger diameter opening. I have had decent luck by taking frozen pinkies and grinding them up to a paste with a mortar and pestle then drawing the material into the syringe through the teat canula. I usually dilute the mixture with a little water.

I guess with Dasypeltis you could use egg.....although what do baby Dasypeltis eat in the wild? Do we know?

And cleanup is simple....just toss them in the trash!

The canulas are available at many vet supply or farm supply places or online - http://www.amazon.com/Durvet-Teat-Cannu ... B000HHO73M

and of course you can buy the syringes online -
http://www.amazon.com/slip-tip-disposab ... EEABMQY5MP

I used these successfully for a couple of months with newborn Eryx miliaris which were only 4-5 inches long at birth and had difficult mouths to open because of their underslung lower jaws. I kept most of the babies alive with this technique until they finally started to eat pinkies.

I think one of the keys is small, frequent feedings rather than trying to pump a lot of stuff into them at once. It also helps to start before they get too weak.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

Chrish your thought about the diet of neonatal/juvenile Dasypeltis is something I have wondered as well. From what I have read, the accentuated vertebral feature isn't even developed in babies, and perhaps they hunt reptile eggs, but bone and tissue development is such an imperative for growing organisms its hard to discount the potential of other dietary items, like small verts, ie lizards, and yes I do think also that this species could stand as an example of how ultraviolet contact is absorbed in nature by snakes, bioaccumulatively in discreet forage, it cant be argued that they do receive contact, even though it be not blatant like a lizard on a rock, or that for the majority of species its absolute absence doesn't cause dramatic crippling osteopathic disease, which I see as a pinnacle impact, not as an indication of isolated exempt of reptiles that have adapted to receive D3 from prey. The regulation of Ca/Phos ratio is mediated by uvb in a way that is bypassed by dietary D3 intake, and since there are no actual 'minimum requirements' determined yet as well with reptiles, it can only be troubleshooted with oral means. The "Fine and Dandy Without It" may only be true in a rough hewn sense, as it may play a part in subtle ways, absent egg fetal teeth in, dystocia, come to mind, as these imply bone and tissue development, just over the edge of the cup, so to speak.

Cannulas are good, they have a nice bore, about the same as the diameter if a 14 ga (the needle, not the bulb) I like to use them for worming small lizards and frogs because of the disposable plus that you mentioned.

It may be helpful to some to consider that one does not need to use actual pinkies to tube feed snakes. A very viable and smooth slurry can be made from raw poultry muscle meat, and liver 2 to 1. add fine calcium. I have achieved identical size and growth rates to voluntary feeders with this simple formula, sometimes adding a little ribbon of egg yolk for extra calories and lipids, in snakes I am tubing more than a couple times to get started.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

That is very interesting on the teats-though the short length would be a disadvantage I'd think. I find it helps prevent spittling if you get the food at least a little bit farther down the esophagus.

I did the first tube feeding today-giving everyone anywahere from .75-2ml of egg. Pretty easy. Hold snakes head/neck in one hand gently swipe a finger across lower jaw to open it and then insert the feeding needle. WAY easier than fumbling with a flexible catheter tube that was apt to pop out and dabble egg on everyone involved in the process. Thanks all!

Dasypeltis almost certainly feed on finch eggs in the wild. I have not seen the eggs of colonial weaverbirds but I imagine babies could crawl into such a nest and have a perpetual source of food. I've had success feeding finch eggs to hatchling eggeaters for first meals. I've read anecdotal reports of them accepting reptile eggs(particularly the hard round eggs of Lygodactylus) as well as eggs of the Giant African land snail. I doubt those are taken in the wild. Tube feeding Dasypeltis is mainly to get over the reluctance of certain babies to eat with much degree of regularity at first...and also the fact that finch eggs for some can be difficult to come by-and for all it is difficult to get enough to feed a batch of hungry babies.

These snakes simply does not have the equipment nor capacity to eat anything that is going to try to get away.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

hmm, yes the teeth are scant and retral, but they are quite nimble snakes, and many other herps encorperate specialized motor tactic when dispatching certain prey, lizards and snakes of different species will nose food items against the ground in leverage, and other things, like rolling or batting back and forth to damage large inverts to prevent escape while eating. Mostly lizards but varietal seizing and feeding tactics are seen in snakes too.

If it is only eggs, for a growing juvenile, it isnt that long of a reach to the solarcentric evolution of terrestrial poikilotherms to consider photoproduction supporting bone growth.

Joseph will you update us on the babies, and are you documenting the project in photos, growth notes, behaviors etc..

Very interested in this, really a cool opportunity.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »


Could you share your perspective on it, as one who has bred and has/is raising Dasypeltis?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

I just attempted to download it again, and Im not sure if a fee is required for the article, or if it can only be accessed by code bearing students and professors?

I am a mere self educated savage, so if you could talk about the article that would be cool. I emailed a kind friend in academia, to see if he might copy and send it to me.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

Hello Kelly,

It may, but you should be able to see the abstract. The actual article compares the abilities of Dasypeltis to Lampropeltis in regards to egg eating-not surprisingly the obligate egg eater greatly outperforms the facultative one(as far as eggs swallowed compared to head size). The authors then speculate that since in Africa their is a higher diversity of ground/shrub nesting birds and a longer breeding season this would allow for the evolution of an egg specialist there.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

Hi Joseph, I did get the article, good material for anyone interested in the species but i wish there were more, Dasypeltis as an examined esoteric could have broader relevance. I suspect it does.

Anyway, Im curious to hear how your egg eaters are doing, any thing more to share, or pics ?

How do you have your guys set up? You also have adults still, unrelated to the babies you are raising it would be cool to reaquaint, update us on your work with these wonderful guys
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

More por favor..!

I don't know of anyone else who is with these, here or other where's.. Evolutionary classic and a favorite wonder
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

Baby snakes of other species that refuse food as steadfast as neo dasypeltis do, are often species that eat much different prey items as babies, than when they are adults.

I have visited some uk discussions where at least one person claimed all of their babies were feeding, eating eggs, but there is scarcity of photos of juvenile specimens. I suspect a hobby-competitiveness impetus with the other egg eating ppl could have be at play, but I could be wrong. But no way of knowing.

I hope you will share what you have learned. I took care of wildcaught Dasypeltis many years ago, I was intrigued by their demeanor and natural history and have not seen one since, so I hope you can understand/pardon/? my enthusiasm.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

Hello Kelly,

There is an excellent thread on the venomdoc forums with correspondence between been and a European hobbyist. He has superb photos of his hatchlings feeding on finch eggs. He had enough baby Dasypeltis(his large female would lay several clutches of a dozen a year!) that he was using them for feeders for some mock vipers! :crazyeyes: (much less appealing snakes in my opinion!) As much as I love the species I don't forsee them taking the hobby by a storm anytime soon unless a supply of adult females could be made available with regularity. Given that their food as babies etc. is not mainstream I think they will always be a specialist animal.

I think the metabolism and nutritional requirements of these snakes are much different than regular snakes. I haven't kept too many other snakes but one thing that is remarkable is this species remarkable ability to fast. Since I do not have a sexable male of the species currently (help please if anyone knows an importer bringing stuff in from Tanzania!) I have spaced my adult females feedings out to where she is being fed several times per year(basically only when I do educational demos). The advantage to this is that she has not laid any eggs the last few years-but she maintains her weight and continues to grow. Like any snake with winter heating and heating elements you do need to make sure the cage does not dry out-I had one scary run in with this when this happened unexpectantly right before she attempted a shed. A moist humid box and offering water every day led to quick recovery hopefully with no permanent damage. Has anyone maintained normal colubrids on such a restricted diet? I have begun adding Repashy Calcium plus to the egg mixture in dilute amounts to supply any vitamins/minerals that might be missing on a diet of pureed egg. Perhaps in the wild feeding on eggs of various developmental stages would provide a more complete diet(large Dasypeltis are known to eat small eggs and not regurgitate the shell).


I misplaced my feeding needle for the babies during a move so am ordering another one-14 gauge this time. I suspect 14 gauge will be suitable for fresh hatchling Dasypeltis as well. They have been growing incrementally but since losing the needle haven't been fed for the last month or two. Again no noticeable loss in condition. I cannot discern if the kinks are better or worse-one animal I call dumpy is kinked all over. The others have only a few kinks at certain points in their bodies.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

I still strongly encourage you and others to day cycle these snakes with uvb light. It self mitigates in process unavailable by troubleshooted oral supplementation. Getting x rays of these especially soon as possible after hatching would be one of the most accurate means to determine their type of defect. Even a veterinarian who is not reptile specialized would be able to peep osteopathic differences of deformed vertebrae or spontaneous fracture, more so than any theorizing could on the outside of a snake.

Any one breeding these guys more than informally and seriously interested adding to the body of knowledge about them should get x rays of eggs and hatched neonates and adults to find out more about the malformations.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Joseph S. »

Note to anyone considering feeding needle sizes.

Make sure to think about the outer diameter of the bulb. I am ordering another 16 gauge needle...the 14 gauge is too large. :?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Looking for feeding syringes

Post by Kelly Mc »

Try working with the 14 - you will like it better. just the visual difference (only a couple mm) isnt as relevant as it looks. It can be that way with lots of things when trepidation is coupled with an invasive technique. But a 14 ga will work for you with babies that size and build. After you use it a couple times you wont notice much of a difference. It wont hurt the snake and the bore of the 14 will extrude the slurry better. The bore benefit you will note and like.
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