Climbing tiger salamander

Captive care and husbandry.

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Hadar
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Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Hadar »

I tried using the search feature to see if I could find previous posts on tiger salamander terrarium set ups discussing the use of branches or logs but wasn't successful in finding the answer I was looking for.

My tiger is living with my parents right now and I just came back from visiting him. He was born in the previous lab I worked in and has never lived in the wild. I have him in a 20 gallon long with a pool at one end (4x9x3 inch) with gravel and rocks to crawl out and the rest is soil, Zoo Med coconut husk fiber, and Zoo Med forest floor (about 5-6 inches deep) with plants. He has a cork bark hide that he likes to sit under and a plastic rock cave hide. In the summer he sits under his hides or under the leaves of the plants and in the winter he burrows. He also swims in the pool a lot. He is only 2 years old (from fertilization) and very active. When I was home I watched him climb the vines, pull himself on top of large leaves, walk along a branch, dive into his pool, swim around, crawl out of the pool, stand on his hind feet with his head pointed upwards waiting for food to fall from the sky, etc. He seems to really enjoy the branch but I noticed that it had tiny white insects (mites?) crawling on it. They were smaller than fleas and my parents couldn't see them. Since the branch was untreated (it originally had a fern and lichen on it but they had since died), I took it out of the terrarium because I was concerned about causing health issues for my tiger.

I want to replace the branch since he uses it all the time but don't know what to replace it with. All the pet stores in my hometown had vines or thin branches but my tiger isn't extremely graceful and I feel he needs something at least a 2 inches wide to walk and climb on. Does anyone have suggestions?

Thanks!
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

Hi Hadar. Im going to cut to the chase and say surprising things, that you can investigate by trying.

None of the substrates that are marketed for broad scoped use with herps have been sufficiently researched for use with all herps, in this case I limit my response to tactile compatibility. Restless activity - which is different in signature than a healthy utilization of scope and station, by having no identifiable pattern to cues like photoperiod, hunger cycles, temperature shifts. So differentiating between dysphoric behavior and foraging or changing station is important.

Subs are usually appropriated from other industries for the pet industry, not conceived especially for them. Some have been/are simply by products of other industries. It is a Niche industry of marketing and appropriation.

That being said, coco resembles nothing that the tiger would normally/has evolved to contact and they are ventris to the ground fairly heavy guys. The jungle floor stuff is a combo with Fir being a dominant component of the mix.

If you don't want to change to a plainer, more inert soil type like topsoil, with oak leaves etc, then I would suggest providing other surface values to the space so that the tiger has some respite from constant properties or tactile factors he may be simply trying to leave.

If he has an easily accessable pool and you mist his environment in a 20 long a healthy tiger will not dry out.

Slate, and cork flats comprising a significant topography of his scope could be helpful. Cork comes in many shapes and is lightweight, inert and doesn't rot or mold. The little wood lice dont like it either, but can survive anywhere there is damp organic resources.

Creating horizontal strata with cork shards can give dimension for his wandering very safely.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

Flat river stones seated in the sub is good floor and fun to find and choose the pieces.

You get obsessed with the quest for Just Right Pieces :)
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Hadar
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Hadar »

Thanks Kelly!

I was just using top soil before but was having a difficult time finding something with to fertilizer or additives while I was home so we bought the coconut husks and forest floor material. That being said, the new substrate has only been in his tank for a couple days but he needed more because my parents were digging him up during the winter because they were worried he had died since he wasn't "begging" for food constantly. Now he is extremely hungry but I warned them not to feed him too much because he might have bigger eyes than his stomach. Would you recommend taking the new substrate out and keeping with soil only?

What is your opinion on creating tunnels near the glass so he can burrow but still be seen sometimes?

This is him

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

Aw your Mom and Dad are sweet. Yeah they are.

Hadar I have exactly the same issue with the topsoil. I don't live where I feel comfortable to collect it, and everything for sale adds fertilizer and etc.

I use ground peat Canadian in a bale and it does have an acidic character but its a good setter for other stuff.

Making the tunnels sounds awesome - like a museum window Viv into his Tigery sanctum!
He's Beautiful.
simus343
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by simus343 »

I agree with Kelly that the tiger salamander might possibly be trying to get away from the un-natural substrate by climbing. Or...it could just be an oddball. I've had oddball terrestrial snakes that seemed to think they were arboreal. I checked my ground conditions and everything was right, they just wanted to climb - to the point that I had to swap to an UTH instead of heat lamp to avoid any burns.

That being said,

I helped design the setup for and take care of a Baird's Tiger Salamander at work. I did some good old youtube research before we acquired it from its previous owner and found a setup that I myself find easy to maintain. Using only sphagnum moss as a substrate with a water dish in there and some cork to hide under. I find this works rather well, and sphagnum can be encountered at the seasonal ponds that Ambystoma tigrinum use for breeding.

For soil, if you are worried about fertilizer and are trying to avoid un-natural (and very scratchy in some cased) forest substrate knock-offs, you could do what I do and collect substrate. Collect about double the amount you want because during washing and cleaning it will start to become less and less (at least with sand, I don't know about real soils outside Florida haha).
1 - Fill a 5 gallon bucket halfway with the collected soil and rinse it with water, expelling the top-water as you fill it up. This gets rid of dusty particles. Yet, if kept damp, I don't think dusty particles would be as much an issue - but doesn't hurt to be safe with collected substrate.
2 - If you are unsure about soil quality, next boil it. Basically cook the sand like pasta or rice. In a pot, fill it with water, and let it rip.
3 - Wash it again. Boiling it may release unwanted "stuff" from the substrate. Add it into the cage.

I know it sounds like a lot of work, but it doesn't take as long as you would think. In a 20 gallon long (I'm assuming the same dimensions of the Zilla brand) I would think you would only use 5-7 gallons of substrate (so 10-14 collected). So 4-6 washing, several boilings (I don't boil for my snakes so I don't have a number here), and 2-3 more washings.

The simplest way though would be the sphagnum route I mentioned above. Easy to get, easy to clean. And then as Kelly said, cork and slate work well for providing hides. I prefer cork for salamanders just because it looks more natural when I get them all set up they way I want.

One last note. Another setup I've seen for Baird's Tiger Salamanders is probably the most simple, but may cause issues if not done carefully. Shallow water with some arched cork and bark to hide under. There was also sphagnum moss in half of the cage. Water quality must be carefully watched here.

If you simply just want to find some new climbing material though - grape vine. I know most grapevine can be very spindly, but I have seen grapevine "trunks" about 4-5 inches in diameter, occasionally even more. Usually these pieces are long, for lizards and pythons, but you can cut them to size yourself. They appear to be de-barked and bleached all the time, so a good soaking and washing may be in order.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

What a great post.. Simus always love your stuff. I just want to make one little remark and that's about boiling. I know where you're coming from so this is more in respect to your time economy, but its cool if your prep goes 1 boil. 10 minutes temps of 160 + gonna do the trick for the purpose.

Course you can rinse as much as you want for a grade you're targeting.

I only mention this because you have awesome ideas and I imagine how they must play out in your works. You deserve the time!
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

Oh dude I get it - several boilings because you meant in parts for all the sub ah I see.

Hey heres a coincidence you guys - my partner got me a huge metal pot a couple weeks ago to keep me away from her kitchen stuff and im boiling rocks right now haha

Heather keep posting here and looking forward to hearing about your Tiger and his house.
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Kelly Mc wrote:Hey heres a coincidence you guys - my partner got me a huge metal pot a couple weeks ago to keep me away from her kitchen stuff and im boiling rocks right now haha
Does the caution against using river rock in/near fire also apply to boiling them? (hot temperatures causing trapped water within the rocks to turn to steam, potentially causing the rocks to "explode" which might be bad for safety/kitchen décor).
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

I don't know! My big kettle has a steamer rack that I use for wood and delicates. But I don't know about that. When I use heat I don't overcook especially woods and subs because it will degrade them. Most Life expires at temps of and over 130, with oocysts requiring 160.

Even rocks can look crappy over cooked esp with dry heat. Avoiding unnecessary duration is key, unless of course one is planning to use the rocks and sticks for surgery haha.

I had some rock blow up in the microwave once.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

The rock that exploded in the microwave was Amazonite. Informally known as Green Shale.

It was like a galactic catastrophe in the microwave - thought I broke it and really spooked me from using the microwave that way.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

simus343 wrote: Another setup I've seen for Baird's Tiger Salamanders is probably the most simple, but may cause issues if not done carefully. Shallow water with some arched cork and bark to hide under. There was also sphagnum moss in half of the cage. Water quality must be carefully watched here.

An automatic siphon, is an invaluable tool for all features aquatic. Its action and velocity completely controllable per dial-in on the faucet, you can do a thorough change or quick pick up in a matter of minutes. For herp water work I remove the large cylinder that's conventionally used for vacuuming through the gravel of aquaria, and impale a bio ball instead on the end of the tube. These prevent moss, rock, plants or a foot, from being pulled in but waste easily flows right through and it can be used with the animals - no need to move or remove them while cleaning. I have tucked it around Mr Baldwin with hardly more than a You so Crazy response, as he casually pushes off and away.

There are two sizes of bio balls, the standard blue ones, and the smaller black ones for getting into small inlets and corners.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Kelly Mc »

edit accident double post
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Hadar
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Re: Climbing tiger salamander

Post by Hadar »

Tony update: my parents say he is very happy. He seems to particularly enjoy the rock cave (plastic). He still does backflips for food (more of a standing on his hind legs and tail then jumping in the air and falling backwards) and is very active.

I asked them for photos but they haven't sent any yet.
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