snake constipation

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Bryan Hamilton
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm

snake constipation

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

I have a very old rattlesnake, wild caught and well over 30 years old. He fed on a rat about a month ago and has still not passed it. He has access to water ad libatum and has a hot pad under his cage that he sits on occasionally. He is still alert and his head and anterior move well. The back part of his body, behind the lump seems skinny and slow.

There is a large, hard lump in his stomach. I've tried soaking him in warm water and he passed a small amount of feces. I just tubed him and palpated the bolus. Its very hard and doesn't move.

Can anyone offer some advice? I've never had a snake that failed to defecate.

Thanks.
Jimi
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Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: snake constipation

Post by Jimi »

I'm thinking "veterinarian". At least a phone call to a good herp vet - I know where you live. Know any zoo vets? Or NDOW's?

I've lost a couple juvenile temple vipers to "failure to crap". Your animal may have a fatal blockage (digestive or otherwise); the hard lump might be impinging on a nerve, leading to the lower-body weirdness. Alternatively, maybe he has a nerve or other issue messing with his elimination (the reverse of what it first seems). Poor old bugger. I kind of think it won't survive winter if you don't deal with this. Just a feeling, no specific knowledge behind it, other than "brumation is when you lose some stuff".

If you can't get a phone consultation (which might lead to a suggestion for some kind of diagnostic imaging?), you might consider more warm bathing & massaging. Perhaps some sort of laxative. Or an enema. There's probably all kinds of unvetted stuff on the internet. Perhaps you'll get something Rx?

Good luck, this is a crappy situation. No pun intended, for once.

Jimi
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Kelly Mc
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Kelly Mc »

The only thing I could add to Jimi up there is that I have noticed that there is a disinclination to hydrate themselves even among "moister" taxa when there is a problem like this and it can cause co morbidities.

No matter what the cause being well hydrated keeps the organs from shutting down. But plain water only addresses a portion of need. Pedialyte unflavored 1.1 to water. 12 ga stainless dose needle would be the tool. Second best option a shallow soak in same solution in a container with romaine , like a stew. Kind of like soaking a snake in a sphagnum and water mix to resolve a retained shed, only the water will stay Clear. It won't be as effective but you may luck out and he will drink. If he settles quietly he may drink, and much more likely to if immersed in a meshy shallow than going to the bowl. I swear. But not as effective as a direct fluids dose.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Kelly Mc »

There may be different ratio of ped to water from other sources all I know is that I have used it with everything from snakes to tarantulas to frogs with no mishap. Too weak a solution wastes the method potential. Its not a cure all but fluids support is universal, and can make a huge difference if procedure impact is mitigated as much as possible.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Kelly Mc »

with an unknown mass I would tube fluids, but a food bolus might not be what you want happening in there,(even a slurry can condense in colon into a bolus)

First fluids always to make sure hydration is adequate before protein is given, to protect kidneys. good luck Bryan with your old friend . Tell us what you find out.

I was pulling up tiles and took break to post sorry for fragmentation.
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

Thanks for the advice. I'm glad to hear you have some experience with it Jimi. I'll check with a vet and try some rehydration.

What do you think of injecting normal saline for hydration, Kelly? Its a standard surgical technique that I've used when implanting radios. I've never seen my rattlesnakes drink, even if the bowl dries out for a couple days. My colubrids on the other hand drink readily. I'm also a little concerned about forcing fluid down a rattlesnakes gullet. This is a nippy snake. I would probably anesthetize him either way, so it may not matter. Thinking about it, he may relax under anesthesia so I could palp the bolus out?

This is an odd snake that I inherited. He is at least 35, probably closer to 40 years old. Sometimes he lays on his back. Several times I've seen this and assumed he was dead. I went to get him out and he pops back. When I saw this bolus and his odd looking posterior, I again thought, well this is it... But he keeps surprising me.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Kelly Mc »

It was as found that injecting fluids isn't as effective on reptiles as it is on mammals, and that PO is better assimilated.

Not just plain saline but fluids that profile the normal fluids of the body, and pedialyte unflavored fits the purpose dependably.

He may not be dehydrated , thats the thing with these kinds of exchanges, guys that I have run into with problems that remind me of what your guys issue may be, hydration was a big factor in helping them, but maybe your guy has a completely different thing going on, or maybe its an extra burly chunk of urates, or cancer, could be so many things.

I'm sure you have seen intimately Bryan snake time moves so differently , then our time. Maybe he has had some thing sub clinical for a long time.

I bring up hydration because so many guys stop drinking when the have issues
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Kelly Mc
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Kelly Mc »

Hey Bryan I'm curious, if you were to divide your snake into 4 sections, with the tail comprising the last, which section has the hard mass?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Kelly Mc »

Bryan I understand that a sedated snake would be under hazard of aspirating tubed fluids so my PO was re conscious animals, and again it has reminded me how hydration has helped in situation that superficially resemble the info you have posted. I have discussed pedialyte in comparison to ringers use dilute for PO and soak use with ARAV vet in officer position, who preferred pedialyte. Which in the Specifics of your guy , could be off topic. No way of knowing in this format. Also guys that react with "flood fear" to being in water has been considered but even those guys can be carefully finessed in a soak method that, if one gives it a chance, can work out to be more beneficial than stressful. The key is close observance to detail, and initial anxiety of the animal being a given, and knowing the point to abort procedure. A frightened animal usually does not drink, and a conventionally arid one can if compromised.

These things interest me strongly.
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

If I divided the snake into sections, the lump would be at the base of the 2nd section. Pretty much right where the stomach meets the intestine.

I tried the pediolyte soak with a homemade solution. I think it worked. I soaked him for over 12 hours. The snake passed a small amount of feces today and the lump is much softer and more pliable. It even moves some when I massage it. I'll continue soaking and hope for the best. I won't brumate the snake until his GI is clear.

One thing about this snake, he feeds two to three times a year. He has gone an entire year without feeding. This always bothered me but I think its his normal pattern. This year he was feeding well, so I offered a couple extra meals that he took. I suspect that caused the problem somewhat. In the future I'll respect that this snake has a very slow metabolism and only offer 3 meals a year.

I absolutely agree that snake time moves differently. This is the third or fourth time that I have written this snake off.... He just keeps on going.
Jimi
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Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: snake constipation

Post by Jimi »

Big congrats on what feels like some progress on this issue. I'm sure - as a long-time hot keeper, and also a bite veteran - you weren't happy about the prospect of doing any super-active hands-on healthcare work. I truly doubt the patient would have liked it either. Anyway, I hope it continues until there is no lump. Hopefully the lump is "just" urates.

I've heard of other guys with snakes who laid on their backs sometimes. And it wasn't paramyxo, it was just odd snake behavior. One was a woma, I remember that. It sounds so weird you almost write it off, then you hear it from 100% dependable reporters such as you. Too funny; there are still surprises out there.

Bryan is there any way you can document the age? You must be headed for some kind of record - definitely a top-10 all time longevity, I'd think, if he's busting 40.

Kelly you have all kinds of cool home-vet experience and advice. Have you worked in a clinic, or a lab, or is this all just accumulated life skills?

My grad school advisor had a saying - never try to outwait a snake. Yes their perception of time must - most of the time - be glacial. But, with brief episodes of microseconds just ticking by, frame-by-frame. I have some specific captives in mind, whose prey-subjugation skills were just...impeccable. These were wild-caught adult tree vipers (V. stejnegeri), which fed great on free-walking live rodents but were just too suspicious & alert to accept dead, or live, from tongs. I was so impressed how they were so perfect at grabbing live adult mice by the back of the neck so they couldn't turn and bite (these were typical grab-and-hold tree vipers, not at all like most stab-and-release terrestrials). They just nailed it, every time. Those moments were not glacial time, it was more like time slowed down for them. Freaky. Awesome. Endowed. Predators.

cheers
Jimi
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Kelly Mc
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Re: snake constipation

Post by Kelly Mc »

Excellent news Bryan on your work with your guy.

Really enjoyed this discussion, especially with a hopeful outcome, life doesn't last forever, but even an ease of issue and a little supportive care for such a venerable snake, is a wonderful thing, and can yield some uncommonly collected knowledge, all the time and work.

Hey Jimi oh yes I really dig your description,[iGlacial Timei] and notes on Perfect Accuracy.

It reflects an understanding I think, of the vipers you kept, but also of the environment ergo and other elements you had on point, that enabled them to fully utilize their gifts.

Thank you guys for sharing ~*~
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