It is currently September 19th, 2018, 3:21 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ] 
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 28th, 2015, 9:56 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Anyone have any idea what one might be able to accomplish housing 1 pair or trio in a single lab cage?

Figure I could replace adults every so often and not need to buy pinkies anymore. How much work am I looking at?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 29th, 2015, 11:58 am 

Joined: June 17th, 2010, 4:51 am
Posts: 360
Location: CT
You will be able to accomplish a smelly room!

Females can give birth about every month or so. I would usually get 7-10 pinkies per litter, sometimes more, sometimes less. You can keep more females with a single male if you need more. They are not much work, easy to change the bedding, pelleted food, and water bottles. Did I mention they smell? :) That's why I stopped. I even kept them outside for a while and they stunk up my yard. I only had about 10 adults going at a time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 29th, 2015, 12:33 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:23 am
Posts: 2238
Location: Unicoi, TN
Quote:
You will be able to accomplish a smelly room!
That's the first thing that crossed my mind, Joseph.
Even a simple pair can have an adverse air about them in apartments.

You can get regular pinks at such a good price now from the major suppliers, that a bag of frozen 100-200 + shipping ends up almost less than the cost to raise them, though your frequent moving certainly causes a logistic issue.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 29th, 2015, 12:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Posts: 3430
Location: Illinois
So I breed a few hundred mice a year. To start I always recommend getting young males, not sexually mature. If you do this you can almost guarantee the females will grow to accept the males, to a degree. I use pine pellets and pine chips on top to keep the smell down.


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 29th, 2015, 7:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Hope would be to put them in a shed or otherwise away.

I figure leave male just long enough to mate females...then feed off females after a batch or two of babies and restart.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 30th, 2015, 8:11 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1758
You're not looking at much work with just a tub or two. Literally a minute or two every day just to make sure there's no water-bottle emergency, then 15-20 minutes once a week for substrate changes. You'll need a place to put the animals while you're cleaning their main tub. For small groups a bucket is fine.

People have noted the downsides, I think the upsides are strong too - e.g., there's nothing like fresh, live pinks whose mothers' diet and living environment you are providing. Nutritionally, they're top-shelf.

Also, if self-sufficiency turns your crank even a little, you will find "growing your own" pretty darn satisfying. Plus you'll know they didn't come from Mauschwitz, they were raised humanely.

Also, it's neat to check out "livestock farming", even if it's only for a short while. And as a species, domestic mice do have their interesting sides. With their rapid generations, you learn a lot fast. Some people get into colors and all that.

If you garden, the discarded substrate is a great resource for nutrients and organic matter. Compost it or just use straight away as a mulch or top-dress.

Now I can return to the downsides: mice do stink, they take some work, and sometimes their social instincts are disturbing. All these can be managed, but I still would suggest putting a note-to-self on your calendar about 6 months out from start-up, asking "yo, self - how's that mouse thing really going?" At that point, while you might still have a few questions, you'll basically know what you're doing.

Also, I don't think your rapid-rotation plan is great. Once you get a stable "house" going, don't screw with it. Seriously, disruption leads to stress which leads to cannibalism. Once you've got some adults who have stopped squabbling, you're good, leave 'em be for a year at least. Then you can think about letting a couple weanling females stay home.

And, unless all you need are pinks to hoppers, and you can consume them all (without super-sizing your predators), I think you'll want at least one other grow-out tub. That, or plan on a freezer solution, or find somewhere close that'll buy your excess. You can make your own grow-out tub(s) quick & easy from a plastic tote, some zip ties and quarter-inch hardware cloth.

Smell is best managed with avoiding overcrowding, regular frequent substrate changes, and good absorbent substrate. I liked the pelletized newspaper stuff. Also wood-stove pellets are OK, especially blended with the paper pellets. Feeding kibble from a vertical or overhead hopper helps too - don't put the food in there with them, they'll just mess all over it.

Air purifiers can help, especially if you're keeping a clean setup.

Finally, you could try another species, especially if high production is not one of your main reasons for doing this. Mice stink more than just about anything else. Everything else also has its quirks and issues, but mice are real eye-burners.

Good luck, have fun, let us know how it goes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 30th, 2015, 11:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Another species would be possible. Unfortunately no gerbils in CA(I understand these smell the least).

Perhaps something like Robo hamsters.

The vast majority of my animals take smaller than adult size mice. I find they much prefer several fuzzies to the prospect of tackling a single large adult. Problem of course is that pinkie mice cost about the same as adult mice(say, pinkies 1.25 and a young mouse 1.50)...so production of adult mice is probably not cost effective.

I think my needs could be provided for by a single trio. If they are producing 10 babies per month-I am more than set.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 30th, 2015, 3:10 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1758
I found gerbils a little sketchy anyway - they can land a mean bite. And I've heard they're so yummy (or "realistic"), some snakes get totally hooked on them and won't go back to domestic mice.

The little dwarf hamsters are pretty good to work with - not very bitey at all, and also very low-odor. Acceptance by snakes is great too - probably on par with gerbils. Socially they're a little more zealous, I found, than mice, and of course they are significantly less productive. But I think you could safely depend on 5 weanlings per female per month. You sure won't do much better than that with mini-hammies; mice do about double that which is the main reason people default to them.

The mini-hammies stink way less than mice; I think they pee way less. On the downside, I found them to be better at escaping than mice (I think they're both active and agile, based on what they could accomplish). And if they jump out of your hands - man they're quick!

Good luck, and have fun. Cheers.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 30th, 2015, 5:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Cool! 5 to 10 per month is about what id need. I will need to do research. One additional advantage of the dwarf hammies is being mouse sized. The biggest snakes in my collection are rosy boas to give you an idea.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: October 30th, 2015, 9:03 pm 

Joined: July 2nd, 2010, 5:48 pm
Posts: 686
Location: AZ.
Joseph, the previous information is excellent. A few comments: mice vary in fecundity, the strain of mice makes a difference. I have a great strain now that consistently produces large litters averaging well over a dozen, sometimes as many as 19 each. As I need pinks for hatchlings, this is great, and by feeding off some early, the rest of the large litter can rapidly grow for other snakes. So check around and get a good strain, a lot of other "pet store" mice won't produce as many, some having litters of only 7-10. I have had pretty and colorful silky mice in the past, to which I became "attached", so I prefer plain old generic white lab types, I keep a professional distance remembering their purpose and fate.

I think the wood pellets made for wood stoves and/or animal litter are terrific, they really work well. However, mice are just pungent, they produce a lot of urine, no getting around it. I keep mine in the garage, with lab type cages, feeding pelleted food made for rodents, and clean the cages about every 2 weeks. Try to isolate them and or control any wild rodents that might try to access them, they may be serious vectors. Lab type cages are the way to go, as they are so easy to clean and have food hoppers. You can make them yourself, but I find rodents often chew holes in dish tubs etc.

Jimi's comments about dwarf hamsters piqued my interest, I might try them.

I sometimes really need a live pinky to stimulate a reluctant/fussy hatchlings interest, otherwise I would just buy frozen. They may be reasonable cost bought in quantity, but often are freezer burned or damaged. I vacuum seal any rodents I purchase for long term storage.

I tend to keep males about a year, and females I replace after 3-4 litters. They will produce after that, but the number of young per litter decreases, and I think most efficient to replace with young females.

Best of luck, Vic


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 1st, 2015, 7:53 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 27th, 2010, 9:07 am
Posts: 134
Location: Madelia, Minnesota
As long as we're on the subject... does anyone here raise Deer Mice or Meadow Voles? And what's the latest on Hanta-virus? (I live in south central Minnesota)


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 1st, 2015, 8:45 am 

Joined: July 2nd, 2010, 5:48 pm
Posts: 686
Location: AZ.
TeeJay, Hanta virus is frightening, but seems to be in the wild population rather than closed colony captive strains of white footed mice (Peroymyscus sp.). I would be cautious of any exposures to wild rodents, but I have had a great many and not contracted it. I don't want to deviate too far from Joseph's thread...

Breeding Peroymyscus was pretty popular with the Alterna king and milk snake/Scarlet king crowd a few years back, as some L. alterna are pretty fussy and refuse domestic mice. Folks I know who tried them found them to be relatively slow breeders, compared to European house mice/lab strains. Small litters less frequent and the adults pretty nervous, not necessarily good parents. There are domestic strains available, through some University (you can Google it), but they are about $35.00 each as I recall... Oldfield's mice have been kept for decades.

They may have an application in herpetoculture, but not a good candidate for Joseph's needs in my mind.

I have friend who feeds wild desert species of mice to his snakes, and they use virtually no water and produce minimal odor or urine as a result while in his care. Someone needs to find a desert rodent that really breeds well, gerbils are sort of in that category but just don't compete with European house mice for large numbers of young etc.

Vic


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 1st, 2015, 2:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Agreed. A low smell rodent that does not need water would be ideal! I know many who keep K-rats in lab still offer them water. I wonder if you could do a naturalistic ant farm style enclosure with some rodents. I'm sure that species is out there but unfortunately with more concern over novel pathogens we are unlikely to see them enter the trade.

I'd imagine in most states Peromyscus would not be allowed as captives either.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 1st, 2015, 6:44 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
So as far as hamsters go

Campbells dwarf: most common. More prolific than robo. Larger.

Roborovski: these things seem to max at mouse size. Very fast. Im sure the difference is minimal but these likely smell the least.

I've found a couple stores that carry campbells...the adults seem barely small enough that a rosy might be able to eat one...and those are my most powerful snake. (Mtn kings often turn down hoppers for me...definitely not eating full grown mice let alone hamsters)...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 9:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
For the Mt Kings, try scenting the hoppers with avian scent. I use only raw food for all of my animals, so I use poultry liver which I slurry and freeze in wafer form, in a zip lock. When I have been out of the slurry I have thawed the mice in the same small container of water with a piece of liver in it, smashed up between my fingers and given a little swirl for solution. It worked just as well.
I keep various frozen slurries for emergency rehab purposes, for whatever may come my way, but raw liver is so fragile that you don't need to slurry it, and its easy and inexpensive to get. You can keep small pieces in a zip lock to use and it will work the same as slurry by smashing it to a bloody pulp between fingertips before smearing. Try it hope it works for you too, if you do


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 1:04 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
I will have to try scenting. I've had the best luck offering prey alive to mtn kings-seems they are fairly motion oriented.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 3:09 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Image

Image

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 7:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Great series and beautiful animal!

I have done somemore research...it appears roborovskiscan be muskier than campbells.

Campbells are prone to diabetes...in whichcase you would have a real messon your hands.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 8:03 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Thanks Joseph! I really like him too.

I've become too soft to use dwarf hamsters or even to have a little breeding colony of mice to feed out. The last time I did it , besides the smell, I noticed right before my main big gal Swiss Webster gave birth, the younger female was urgently bringing more nesting materials into the ladies hut.

That's what I get for putting them somewhere where I couldn't help but see their little behaviors all the time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 8:32 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Haha yeah. The robos are so darn cute and add too.

Do you have any thoughts on the smell of robo vs campbells? Dunno if you guys stock both species.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 9:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
They are both very clean. The robos less quarrelsome in groups.
But other than that I couldn't tell you what's going on re: stock, as I don't work there anymore. Management /mission differences, with current ownership.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 9:32 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Interesting. I talked to a petstore person today who claimed she felt robos had amore musky and ammonia smell to them


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 9:48 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Perhaps it was because there were more robos in the tank/cage together than campells will tolerate in same space.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 9:53 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
I bet. They are very much desert rodents...so pee is very concentrated. I have found more anecdotal reports complaining of male robo musk (frequently compared to chips) than other sp.

Did you guys price them differently? It seems the robos are more expensive. Makessense if they are less prolific


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2015, 10:47 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
For a while they were more expensive but last I remember they were the same. I don't know what they are now.
But they will site relieve themselves if they are content with their circumstances which makes it easy to keep them tidy, when maintained with a modicum of diligence.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 4th, 2015, 8:18 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 27th, 2010, 9:07 am
Posts: 134
Location: Madelia, Minnesota
Has anyone here kept African soft furred rats or African spiny mice? I just did a Google search with videos on each. Pretty interesting. Plenty of pros and cons with each. They have African spiny mice at our local pet store. Was just wondering that because they're a more dry habitat species that maybe the smell would be less?


Top
 Profile WWW 
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 4th, 2015, 11:35 am 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
A useful aspect of exploring prey presentation cues is being independent from fostering habituation to animal food items that are subject to availability and state by state restrictions. Bans often happen quietly and without much opportunity for interested parties to voice contention.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 4th, 2015, 6:18 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1758
Quote:
Bans often happen quietly and without much opportunity for interested parties to voice contention.


Yep, this is deplorably routine. However, oftentimes the bans are so quiet, nobody even knows. Even the pet shops, I mean, let alone "garage breeders" - so it can take a long time for the animals to go captive-extinct. What I'm getting at is, there's often a lag in availability declining.

Still, generalizing way beyond rodents - if you think you probably want to keep something, and you see it available, well - waiting around might not do you any favors. Even without bans, sometimes market or export conditions change, and what was once banal becomes rare or completely unavailable. All of us older guys have seen it many, many times. I think the phenomenon is accelerating.

Back to rodents, and something I think Vic mentioned - Gerry once posted a link to the place you can get the Hanta-free deer mice (USC in Columbia). They had a few species, some various localities or strains, and included info on litter size, adult mass, etc. It looked pretty darn interesting to me. Here's the link (it was super-easy to find it just now) - http://stkctr.biol.sc.edu/.

Here's a species account - makes for interesting reading: http://stkctr.biol.sc.edu/wild-stock/p_manicu.html

Oh hey, I see they have cactus mice available! That's a cool little mouse, I bet some folks here would enjoy keeping those. Might be hard to feed them off...

cheers


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 5th, 2015, 11:11 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
I'm in agreement with you Jimi. I've met people in enforcement who have boas and pythons who were unaware of the restrictions against them in this area, as many if not most people who have them are.

If I had the time to raise some of those species of mice, it would incite an enthusiasm for study and the pleasure of their husbandry, mice are interesting animals with unexpected talents.

But most of all I like the idea of knowing exactly how my animal stock is raised. And the independence from outside sourcing.

Hey on a side note, my roommate, not my gf but my best buddy who used to live here and work in a research facility, brought home a hairless, vaccinated Chimera mouse. We named him Simon and he lived for almost 4 years. Apparently the chimeras are cultivated for specific purposes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 12th, 2015, 7:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
I got ahold of a pair of campbells hamsters

They cant run warpspeed or jump as the robos do. They smell a lot less than mice too. Literature suggests they may be a tad more prolific...mine were from a litter of 10.

Robos are so darn cute im still tempted to try them.

As long as these campbells dont get diabetes I think we are in business. I actually havent been able to find a affordable hamster or rabbit food without sugar that is supposed to increase the risk. They are being fed lentils, beans, and other seeds, some leaves, bugs, acorns etc. For the moment

The female is friendly with me...male is best taken out of tub with a bowl...then he can be handled just fine.

I never guessed id ever own pet hamsters.

I will be moving in a month to a place I plan to stay for 2 yrs at least. Their will be an outdoor shed I might have them live in. For my needs(2 mountain kings, hopefully a pair of rubber boas and/or redsided garters). I think 2-3 pairs will be adequate.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 12th, 2015, 9:12 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Joseph good on ya making your own food mix. The commercial packaged diets are made of discards of other industries, B grade and inferior grains and seeds, colored middlings that have caused constipation and large built up fecal boluses, dead old seed, etc. But if they add the vitamins and minerals, also dubious in quality, it meets the "dietary standard" an example of skimping is less oats and more "kibble" bits, also alfalfa pellets because it is cheap, but mostly ignored by hamsters.

Its very unfortunate but true. I started noticing it more and more until I couldn't sell the brightly packaged popular mixes any more to clients in good conscience .

Your best bet is to do what your doing, and supplement with a good bird pellet for the nutrient profile. Nutraberries are also good, and they love to store and manipulate them.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 13th, 2015, 10:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Kelly: I am actually sprinkling old reptile supplement on their food too.

Would you recommend a decent economy bird pellet? Parrots eat at least some fruit in the wild(it looks like hamsters pretty much never see such delicacies) so nutrient profile is a bit different. Something designed for budgies would be a good bet tho.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 13th, 2015, 6:32 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Yes exactly. Budgie/cockatiel any of the uncolored simple pellets. The truth is most of your pelleted grain based composite pellets are more similar than different, but bird products are of higher quality than rodent products due to a more pursuant consumer base for quality of longer lived companion animals.

Sprouted seed and millet sprays are also enjoyed by campells and robos.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 15th, 2015, 5:25 pm 

Joined: June 17th, 2010, 4:51 am
Posts: 360
Location: CT
Jimi wrote:
People have noted the downsides, I think the upsides are strong too - e.g., there's nothing like fresh, live pinks whose mothers' diet and living environment you are providing. Nutritionally, they're top-shelf.


I was one of the people noting the downsides. However, I just got some locally bred live pinkies the other day. It was the first time I have used fresh mice in a long time. I cant really explain why, but they just felt better than the frozen. Maybe its simply the higher water content making them feel more robust, but it got me thinking if fresh (fed live or pre-killed) could be healthier than frozen in the long run. Anyone have any thoughts on the subject? I have often heard that freezing can rid food of vitamins, but after a quick internet search, that seems to be more rumor than truth.


Kelly Mc wrote:
The commercial packaged diets are made of discards of other industries, B grade and inferior grains and seeds, colored middlings that have caused constipation and large built up fecal boluses, dead old seed, etc. But if they add the vitamins and minerals, also dubious in quality, it meets the "dietary standard" an example of skimping is less oats and more "kibble" bits, also alfalfa pellets because it is cheap, but mostly ignored by hamsters.

Its very unfortunate but true. I started noticing it more and more until I couldn't sell the brightly packaged popular mixes any more to clients in good conscience .
.


Have you every used Oxbow foods? They seem to be a pretty good company with emphasis on appropriate nutrition. Joseph, you may want to check them out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 15th, 2015, 6:41 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Oxbow is ok, but not as good as it used to be. Its not about the profile, that's easy. Its about the sourced foodstuffs that comprise the body of the pellet.

There are even "assist feed" diets that are simply the cheapest soy and cereal base with vitamins and minerals added. The products do a great job of marketing and are even prescribed by some Vets because they are easily explainable to use.

These reconstituted powders will sustain life but cant be compared to a fresh carnivorous raw slurry, or in the case of herbivores, a fresh puree of broad leafed grasses like dandelion greens etc.
Someone as knowledgeable as Joseph, or you could easily create diets that surpass commercial foods in quality and assimilative value.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 15th, 2015, 6:41 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Woops didn't know it double posted. Edit


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 15th, 2015, 6:47 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Its all about the grades of food materials and where they are sourced. I've done intense investigation in this area, and learned some interesting inside details.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 15th, 2015, 7:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Freezing can cause a slight loss of the B complex, and prolonged freeze and associated rancidity can incite deficiencies that have surpassed the subclinical in documented cases of reptiles fed long term on frozens.

An occasional dab of tocopheryl will prevent it, and a minute matchstick sized pile of Centrum will cover the rest. Oversupplementation is to be avoided.

The "minimum requirements " for reptiles as yet to be established.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 21st, 2015, 3:08 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Kelly. Has anyone ever set up hamsters in a ant farm type setup to be able to observe burrow construction? I can see issues (cleaning mainly) though I wonder if the right mix might last a while. I see that robot tunnel into sand dunes in nature. Maybe something a few inches wide but a meter or so tall and wide...connect a tube leading to a foraging arena


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 21st, 2015, 3:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
I really dig that concept. Along time ago when the "dwarf hamsters" first came around, I brought one home and set him up in a 20 gal tank I had spare with branch pieces and cork. I named him Marble and he was fun to watch.

They are small and well, still in their original phenotype so I think setting them up more naturalistically would be cool. I've made that suggestion to people but there are too many human eye oriented toy type "houses" and accessories that more strongly pull their attention.

I'm thinking if you kept them with a zoologically focused aim, how neat that would be. Haha you could be curator of your own miniature mammal section.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 21st, 2015, 6:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
http://wc.arizona.edu/papers/90/164/03_1_m.html
And when you thought you seen it all...heartbroken hamsters?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 21st, 2015, 8:18 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
We always attach human faces to the words happiness and sadness, since we invented words to use with each other as humans. On the scientific side we share many of the same chemical and neural reactions to traumatic and pleasurable stimuli.

Perhaps happiness and sadness are basic experiences. If I am to err I think I will choose to err on the side that they are.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2015, 8:24 pm 

Joined: March 30th, 2014, 12:16 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Okaloosa ca, Fla.
Kelly Mc wrote:
I really dig that concept. Along time ago when the "dwarf hamsters" first came around, I brought one home and set him up in a 20 gal tank I had spare with branch pieces and cork. I named him Marble and he was fun to watch.

They are small and well, still in their original phenotype so I think setting them up more naturalistically would be cool. I've made that suggestion to people but there are too many human eye oriented toy type "houses" and accessories that more strongly pull their attention.

I'm thinking if you kept them with a zoologically focused aim, how neat that would be. Haha you could be curator of your own miniature mammal section.


While not hamsters, there is an old post-breeding male Perdido-Key Beach Mouse kept where I work. He is in a tall, long, and sort of narrow cage with sand about 2 feet deep and is what I got the idea to use sticks in reptile enclosures to hold the burrow shape and sand in place. You can easily see all of the tunnels, the main entrance, and all of the escape exits. We also have driftwood to help provide surface "burrow roofs" and a turtle shell for it to gnaw on. We use to have a wheel when we first got him, but it has since been misplaced.

Then, when I was younger - while living overseas I first kept hamsters because there was no care info on the native herps where I was and no "exotic" herps like corn snakes in pet stores, but there was lots of mammalian pets. I had three hamsters during that time - all kept in those "toy" cages. Comparing what those were like to the deep sand cage the beach mouse is now kept in, I much prefer sand. Those plastic tubes in those toy cages get gunked up really easy and are a pain in the ****** ******* **** **** to clean. Loads easier to scoop out the sand, wash it, and put it back with the branches.

The biggest upkeep issue with sand-based keeping for rodents I have found is misting to make darn well sure that the burrows do not cave in.

However as far as HAMSTERS on sand, I have no experience. Just a contrast of cage-types for the same broad group of animals.

From a psychological standpoint I think that using dirt for any rodent species to make a burrow is much more healthy. It provides stimulus as they rework their own burrow system and allows for a full "cut-off" from public view.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2015, 5:41 am 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Because the dwarves have complex pairing behaviors with the goal of raising their brood to survive, there might be some problems in repeated take of the pinkies. On thing that is likely to occur are attempts to create a nest in more inaccessible areas of the environment to avoid pillage. Even small groupings of Swiss Webster mice females, that nurse communally can express neurosis if the groups aren't large enough to diffuse repetition in take.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2015, 2:36 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Kelly: That has been one concern of mine...that taking pinkies would cause the hamsters to eat the rest of the babies. I suppose one could simply take the entire litter and that would solve that problem.

How often did you find the sand had to be washed?

Campbell's are native to steppes...which have quite loamy soil. It'd be interesting to see if one could establish, say, ryegrass to the point where they could not destroy it completely.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 23rd, 2015, 11:51 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Interestingly, if removed from the subculture of Herpetoculture purpose, that practice would be viewed as psychopathic. Lol.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 24th, 2015, 1:15 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Sand is inefficient to wash. It is usually replenished in husbandry service. 50 lbs of sterile sand is extremely cheap, sometimes less than a sandwich and a coke.

One thing about sand to keep in mind is that it has been known to cause eye irritation and infections. In vigorously kicking up the sand it storms back from the tank walls in a way that doesn't happen when burrowing in the wild. There are more details to robo and campells behaviors, they are more readily stressed and when they are, they stop producing, and also quarrel, inflicting bites which almost always abcess. If thought of simply as a low odor substitute for mice, the project is often short lived for a litter or two.

But they are interesting mammals and their size and behaviors are compatable with innovative keeping.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 25th, 2015, 1:57 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Good points

How big are hamster fuzzies weanlings etc.? Maybe just leave undisturbed and harvest only once. Can they be sexed at young age?

I would assume you'd want to retire and replace breeders at a similar frequency to mice as well.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 25th, 2015, 6:08 am 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 4113
Location: San Francisco, California
Hahahaha yeah that would be one of those look with loupe glasses on times, which I had an extra pair, the light was inoperable one side which didn't really matter and man, they are invaluable for so many things. If I was still at the shop I would give you that pair I swear I would . My partner bought be another for a surprise with multiple set lenses. There are very inexpensive versions which are just fine for the purposes of you and I.

You just scruff them to immobility in good light and look. They are very dimorphic its just a matter of tinyness. You are young so maybe you could look at the weanlings unaided. They are super cute as weanlings, like furry all head running things.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: small scale mouse breeding
PostPosted: November 25th, 2015, 10:35 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
Posts: 539
Haha looking forward to it.

I think I will run two bins. Production would go something like this

When bin one animals have batch of babies, remove a pair of weanlings to bin two

By the time bin two animals are sexually mature(1-2 months)...they will start breeding.

After a few months, feed off bin one adults(who are now nearing 1 year of age) and raise two new ones from bin two.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: