2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings)

Captive care and husbandry discussions.

Moderator: Scott Waters

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 9th, 2014, 8:11 am

Actually it would be awesome to have dinner with you and Regal sometime :D

Our dinner conversation would be like none other !

Speaking of appliances I just got a vacuume sealer - I haven't taken it out of the box yet. Its for the animal food . im hoping it frees me up from all the zip lock bags, having to press out all the air, etc. to keep things nice.

I like taking care of this snake, he is very active. I let him "fail" a hunt occasionally, ie, don't feed him every time he forages. And he does have conventional seasonal ebbs and swells to his appetite, but when hes On he is robust.

Hes a big boy and has that hard body feel - hard as a brick! I don't want that to change and I think rock climbing and uvb has played a part.

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by hellihooks » August 9th, 2014, 4:10 pm

In the 30 some crotes I maintain, for avoidance training (all rescues) a few won't eat... I've adapted a caulking gun and fill it with F/T rat pinks... and pump um in... works fine... did three snakes this am... ;)

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 9th, 2014, 7:35 pm

Ok so heres the thing, I don't really handle my snakes. Im not "against" it, that's just not something I find myself doing unless its necessary, and stretching him out measuring them isn't something I find necessary. but, since I have had my snake since day one, ive kept loose track, mostly since he has gotten to be an adult. So what ive done a couple times is, in an empty 40 gallon I had in the garage, is put a towel on the bottom and let him crawl along the wall and then put a bolt or something real quick where his head stops to mark it. The last time I did this, he straightened out pretty good and his head looked like it was only a couple inches from the end, which its a 36 in tank.

So I moved the tank inside because im moving one of my lizards in it and I thought I would do it again, only this time I put a tape measure under the glass. Well...

Ok so he isn't 34 inches. Hes more like 30, maybe even a little more, cause he had a few little bends.

I don't know why I feel weird about this.. :oops: :roll:

User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2293
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by gbin » August 10th, 2014, 5:51 am

Jim, is your avoidance training the same as the snake-breaking exercises I've run my dogs through in TX? Just out of curiosity, why do you feel you need so many snakes for it? That's a lot of mouths to feed, especially if a number of them won't eat voluntarily.

Kel, it's been a long time since I last heard word of it, but there used to be a free downloadable program around that people could use to measure the length of their snakes. All that was needed was to take a picture of a snake from above and include something of known length (such as a ruler) in the picture, plot some points on the picture using the program and then let it calculate the snake's length. Pretty slick!

Gerry

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by hellihooks » August 10th, 2014, 7:40 am

gbin wrote:Jim, is your avoidance training the same as the snake-breaking exercises I've run my dogs through in TX? Just out of curiosity, why do you feel you need so many snakes for it? That's a lot of mouths to feed, especially if a number of them won't eat voluntarily.
Gerry
It's against Ca. Law to re-release captive herps... so we force feed the few that won't eat, rather than watch them starve. the # of crotes relates to years of rescues, and we prefer not 'over-using' the snakes (usage = Stress) so rotate their use. It's standard shock-collar rattlesnake avoidance training... MOSTLY for bird-hunting dogs, but with more and more folks building where crotes are found... more and more 'pet' dogs all the time.
We'll (hopefully) soon offer Skunk avoidance training as well... and I'm looking forward to keeping skunks. :|

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 10th, 2014, 8:37 am

concepts of More and Bigger are primal and interestingly reactive. Even if one doesn't think they ascribe to them, something will happen that will indeed make its value detectable.

It can be a surprise to suddenly see our monkey prints in the light.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 10th, 2014, 8:41 am

My partner said I was cranky after I measured the snake.

:lol:

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by hellihooks » August 10th, 2014, 1:38 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:My partner said I was cranky after I measured the snake.

:lol:
Join the Club... :lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 10th, 2014, 4:22 pm

Heehee.. Pan of the Desert

User avatar
Scott Waters
Site Admin
Posts: 681
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Scott Waters » August 11th, 2014, 11:58 am

I've done baby food many times over the years for finicky (of various species) feeders. Worked great, no problems, began eating on their own after a few of these meals. The only negative I've found, and it did happen to me once, very early on, is overpumping. But that is true with anything you are using a pinky pump, or similar type of device on.....so be careful and don't over-stuff using this method!

scott

User avatar
BillMcGighan
Posts: 2300
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:23 am
Location: Unicoi, TN

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by BillMcGighan » August 11th, 2014, 3:08 pm

Just a side note since measuring was mentioned.

Here’s a modification to Kelly’s measurement technique, just for larger animals. I think I read this first in a Clifford Pope book.

Put the animal down quietly against a blank wall in a large empty room, an empty hallway, or a large room with all the furniture moved to the other side.

It works best if the floor is smooth like tile or linoleum, or like here, laminate flooring.


Image


If things stay quiet, the animal will often straighten out and crawl along the wall right where the wall and floor come together.


Image


You can place an object down the wall on the floor, like this copy of Ditmar's Reptiles of North America and when the snake reaches it, mark the spot where the tail is, then measure.


Image


This takes patience and is not "dead-on" accurate, but it is less intrusive and stressing to the snake.
It works consistently with Boas and pythons, but with patience, can work with most other medium to large snakes.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 11th, 2014, 3:16 pm

Nice! Yes we did that at a place where I took care of boids, which I kind of tried to copy with my z . I like the Ditmars reference, so gentle and warm your sense of fun is, Bill.

You know I can't remember measuring any of my other guys. Weighing some yeah

Last night I gave Golden Boy an extra fuzzy LOL

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 11th, 2014, 3:29 pm

Mine doesn't have any red on his head, but little goldy flecks and lines.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 11th, 2014, 3:57 pm

:) edit I shouldn't be trying to post at work!

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by hellihooks » August 11th, 2014, 4:50 pm

For measuring large snakes I use a cartographers wheel... when/if I get to the point where the tail is too small, I measure the remaining tail and add it to the total on the wheel... and obtain accuracy down to 1/16 of an inch. Too Anal??? Oh well...guess that's just how I 'roll' yuk yuk

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 17th, 2014, 1:50 am

Pics of Golden Boy 2014


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Zach_Lim
Posts: 1607
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 7:37 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Zach_Lim » August 22nd, 2014, 1:41 pm

Beautiful zonata

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » August 22nd, 2014, 6:20 pm

Thanks Zach - I think so too!

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by justinm » August 27th, 2014, 5:33 am

BillMcGighan wrote:
You can place an object down the wall on the floor, like this copy of Ditmar's Reptiles of North America and when the snake reaches it, mark the spot where the tail is, then measure.
My Ditmar's of the same title is Faded to a Teal Green, on a Wooden binding.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » November 10th, 2014, 8:31 am

Interesting observation - I unearthed G.Bs buried hollows and compartments to 'graft' into a new glass enclosure. I wanted to be as unobtrusive as possible because of the season. The hollows are a cork burl hollow about the size of a cereal bowl, a cork sleeve (ie an L shaped 'tube') and a slate box I made that was positioned in a vertical orientation. There was also numerous shale and sandstone flush on the floor.

I notice after this snake eats I find stool in a general same area, which isn't unusual. But in examining his lairs it is quite amusing how scrupulous he has been about them, not even a speck or scant trail of urates leading away or anywhere near them. It not the same with my cali king. But I think it has to do with opportunity, and enclosure.

I have noticed this similar tendency not only in snakes but in other taxa that have lairs long time, and it has been consistant. I have even seen this certain frogs and toads with permanent hollows. Oddly enough my whites tree frogs are as neat about their cork hollow as my Auffenberg's Monitor. Which to me indicates it is a very basal tendency, and instigated also by env opportunity.

I am waiting until Spring to add the rock build to G.Bs new encl.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » February 15th, 2015, 11:36 pm

Spring has sprung for Golden Boy.. Early Feb first '15 pics

Image

Image

Image


Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » February 16th, 2015, 9:43 am

If you look at #3 at G.Bs neck - he is swallowing last of a "nest" of 4 thawed pinks I gave him as his first spring meal. I put in cork log for him to "find". I am thinking of ordering some frz quail for enrichment, variety. He is attracted to avian tissue. I scent his mice with it, in a raw slurry form I keep frozen. What I had in the freezer was frosty, harmless but freezer burn can affect appeal so this time I used plain liver.

I post this to perhaps provide others with an option they may try, instead of using lizards.

It has worked for me very well.

condyle
Posts: 206
Joined: September 25th, 2010, 2:46 pm
Location: Santa Cruz ca

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by condyle » February 27th, 2015, 8:26 pm

I've never had coastal hatchlings refuse skink scented pinks. But for a nice change I may try the frozen quail for variety as you mention. A nice post brumation treat.

VICtort
Posts: 688
Joined: July 2nd, 2010, 5:48 pm
Location: AZ.

Lampropeltis zonata and quail

Post by VICtort » February 27th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:If you look at #3 at G.Bs neck - he is swallowing last of a "nest" of 4 thawed pinks I gave him as his first spring meal. I put in cork log for him to "find". I am thinking of ordering some frz quail for enrichment, variety. He is attracted to avian tissue. I scent his mice with it, in a raw slurry form I keep frozen. What I had in the freezer was frosty, harmless but freezer burn can affect appeal so this time I used plain liver.

I post this to perhaps provide others with an option they may try, instead of using lizards.

It has worked for me very well.

Hi Kelly,

years ago I kept quite a few L.zonata's... I found that day old quail were a big hit, they were often preferred over fuzzy mice when I gave the snakes a choice. I think diversity in diet can only be a good thing, but not necessarily needed, more of a quality of life issue in my mind. It is apparent to me you consider such things, so I encourage you to offer the G.B. day old quail.

Kelly, watch for a PM regarding this somewhat off topic subject...Vic

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » February 27th, 2015, 9:10 pm

Yeah ( :

Your post is reminding me to go ahead on Layne Labs. They really seem like a nice operation.

Ive been doing alot of scent assessment, habituation investigation with various taxa these past few years and its been really interesting.

What Ive found, to be basic and brief here, is that there are broader cues of acceptance in scent, motion (inc non motion) that havent been tried, and that create a feeding response. Alot of this is with lizards - getting them to eat thawed insects and composite foods, that conventionally are fed live.

With certain snakes I find that it is Non Threat Scent versus Potential Threat Scent, but these often must be coupled with presentation method.

Because GB takes his mice quicker with raw avian scent and because its very easy for me to do - just smear a tiny chip of frozen slurry from a ziplock in my freezer, I feed him that way.

A few times I just used a little piece of raw liver.

Other snakes preferring lizards (grey bands, milks) I have used lizard urates, a powdery touch on head, between shoulders of pink, rinsed of husbandry smells. CB clean Bearded dragon, leopard geckos mostly. It always works.

Im not taking stance on the ethics of using wild natives but have explored tactics that enabled independence from their use, and opened up interesting windows of feeding cue observations.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » February 27th, 2015, 9:12 pm

Bye the way Hi Vic!

Hi to you too Codyle! Yes a good treat after brum! Quail :thumb:

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » July 23rd, 2016, 6:31 pm

G.B some moments 2016

Image
Image

Image

Image

Zach_Lim
Posts: 1607
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 7:37 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Zach_Lim » September 2nd, 2016, 12:27 am

Long time since I looked in this section of the forum.

Kel- golden boy is looking great! What a fantastic animal. How long and thick is he? Zonata rarely get "that" big in the wild (multifasciata specific, although I have seen monster specimens in the wild a handful of times).

He is confluent in all the triads right? Gorgeous, just stunning.

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4295
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings

Post by Kelly Mc » September 2nd, 2016, 4:57 pm

Hi Zach I think he may have grown a little. I haven't measured him though this year. I'm glad you like him. Your post up there reminded me of an excellent personal field description you wrote about, regarding shock visual of Zs to habitat greens & browns. Other than the little parabolas he's pretty straight ringed guy. But the crossovers on some specimens are neat looking too.

Post Reply