Beauty Ratsnakes

Captive care and husbandry discussions.

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Saunders
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Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 20th, 2011, 6:59 pm

I am very much into the Beauty Ratsnakes, especially breeding them. I bred them for the first time last year and here are some old pics of the whole ordeal.
I still have three baby females left which I am trying to sell, I'm planning on breeding again.

9 pearly white healthy looking eggs from this past summer.
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Mom
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Dad, this is one of Connor's snakes.
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Veitnamese Beauty Ratsnake Babies from this past fall.
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A short video of my big female out for some exercise.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Hillcounrty ... SAr7jkKVzk

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by John Andermann » April 20th, 2011, 8:51 pm

Nice beauties and good job breeding them. Although common names don't usually mean much, those are actually Taiwan beauties - Orthriophis taeniurus "friesi". You just want to be careful calling them Vietnamese beauties because most people associate that with the blue beauties, but that is also incorrect because the true blue beauties are from Thailand.
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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 21st, 2011, 2:07 pm

Actually, they are Vietnamese Blue Beauties.
The VBB's fromt he most norther extent of their range (Laos and northern Vietnam) tend to have a yellowish coloration resembling that of the Taiwanese Beauties.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by John Andermann » April 21st, 2011, 6:14 pm

You're right about the yellow beauties from Vietnam, but that is not what you have there. I've seen from some of your other threads that you're pretty stubborn when it comes to others correcting you (such as the Chironius in Peru that was clearly not a Pseustes), so I'm not going to bother after this post.

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 21st, 2011, 6:46 pm

I have my reasons for it not being a Chronius, and I stick by those.

If you have something to say to me about my snakes then please, let's hear it.
These snakes were sold as Vietnamese Yellow Beauties, parents of my adults were wild caught I believe (it was a while back so I can't be certain).
But if you have some other insight and reasons behind it then I would love to hear it.

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 21st, 2011, 6:57 pm

And oh, I admit I can be stubborn, but I'd say I was moderate for the Peru snake, I'd have gone with the recent four lined skink or alligator lizard conversations in regards to my stubborness, but that's just me.

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Ian Jessup
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Ian Jessup » April 23rd, 2011, 5:49 pm

Congrats on the baby Beauties!!! The world needs more Beauty Snakes and fewer Ball Pythons. :lol:

I'm going to echo John's thoughts though. There is not a chance in hell either of your adults are Blue Beauties (O. t. callicyanous). I'm gonna ask you to bear with me here and read through this entire post, because it's a long one, but by its end I think you'll agree, and I think you'll feel better for it.

I can say with absolute certainty that your male is a perfect example of a Taiwan (O. t. friesi). In fact, he looks almost exactly like my male Taiwan. Your female is a bit more questionable. I'm going to issue my professional opinion that she s a Taiwan, but I wonder about the purity of her lineage. There are certain details that are slightly off for her being a pure Taiwan Beauty. However, it is just as possible that she is pure Taiwan and just slightly aberrant, there aren't too many Taiwans in captivity because they are completely protected and not imported from Taiwan at all. So, I expect to see aberrant specimens of Taiwans to appear since the captive population is so closely inter-related. Regardless, I can make the positive ID of your snakes by scale counts. Your pictures are good enough, that I sat down, blew them up, and did the counts myself. Both animals match up within the tolerances for O. t. friesi. This combined with their physical characteristics (i.e. color, patttern, relative size, where specific aspects of their patterns start and stop, scale width of the tail stripes, etc.) enables me to make a positive ID.

The hatchlings look every bit like baby Taiwans, pretty much to the "T."

If in fact these animals were sold to you as Blue Beauties, I can tell you that either A.) that person doesn't know enough about Beauty snakes to positively identify them, B.) they got them from someone claiming they were Blues and just assumed that person was telling the truth, or (and I really hope this isn't the case) C.) they are a straight up liar or just called them Blue Beauties for lack of a better ID on the snakes.

I hate to say it, but there are way too many people out there breeding and selling Beauty Snakes who wouldn't know the difference between a Garter Snake and a Ribbon Snake. And I'll stand by that in front of any one person, or persons if the case should be. Worse yet, there are too many people keeping Beauty Snakes that are trying to parade themselves around as so-called "experts" on them. At present, there is but ONE expert. His name is Klaus-Dieter Schulz and he is responsible for writing the holiest of texts on the subject of ratsnakes which we in the ratsnake hobby refer to as "The Monograph," which is the source I used for making the positive ID on your snakes. His on going work, as of late, has been specifically focused on the taxonomy of the Beauty Snakes. His most recent paper, published within the last year, is the seminal report on the yellow-phase Blues from Vietnam along with the identification of a new subspecies of Beauty Snake, O. t. helfenbergeri. After him, there are no "experts" only those with significant experience, of which I include myself. And there are just a few of us with significant experience with the Beauty Snakes, maybe 6-8 in the US alone. Outside of that, everyone else is just a hobbyist ranging from the newly initiated to those with a few years of experience in keeping/breeding one or two Beauty Snake subspecies.

I can tell you that you do NOT have a yellow-phase Blue from Vietnam, because they have been imported in so few numbers that they are exceedingly rare in the US hobby (and those that have arrived have likely died within a year of arriving from stress and internal parasites or viral ailments), and are only just recently showing up in the European trade (and the Europeans are far more interested in rat snakes of any genus than Americans, by far). So rare, in fact, that I expect to encounter an American ratsnake hobbyist with solid black-phase Gonyosoma janseni well before I encounter a yellow-phase O. t. callicyanous. And I actually only know one person in possession of black janseni.

I don't want to sound like I'm jumping all over you. But here's my bent on the whole subject of Beauty Snakes. I'm an uber-jealous keeper and breeder of Beauty Snakes. I hold them in the highest esteem above all other colubrids that I love. As such, I am HIGHLY selective when it comes to adding animals to my collection and for consideration in my future breeding plans. I have fielded ID requests from people all around the world when it comes to positively identifying Beauty Snakes where information is otherwise hard to find. I've answered countless emails concerning husbandry practices, taken late night phone calls from frantic Beauty Snake owners facing a sudden emergency with their snake. I've written at length on the subject of Beauty Snakes for the Ratsnake Foundation and Reptiles magazine, as well as reports on the curiosities of their speciation which strike my fancy (and are the reason why I am so enamored of them). I WANT people to know with certainty what kind of Beauty Snakes they have. I WANT to know with certainty what kind of Beauty Snakes people such as yourself have. All because I want to see these animals bred and maintained in a proper fashion to insure that we will enjoy the variety that exists in this particular species for a LONG time to come. I've seen people just throw two Beauty Snakes together with complete disregard as to whether or not they were the same subspecies or not and breed them, and then sell them under false pretenses. I've never been a huge fan of the rampant hybridization we've been seeing in the hobby in recent times. Not so much because I am against hybridization, or that I am a purist, but because I see so many people misrepresenting animals they've produced as a result of hybridization in order to capitalize on a quick buck. I've no problem with hybridization as long as the breeders of such animals provide full disclosure and display complete honesty when doing so.

I don't want to see an obviously excited Beauty Snake keeper, such as yourself, get caught up in that kind of BS. Your Taiwans are awesome!!! That is something to be proud of, because you are one of the few people in the US keeping and breeding them. And especially since the Taiwan is one of the "Big 3" in the Beauty Snakes, whereby I mean it is one of the three large subspecies which grow to such impressive sizes, sending others screaming for a hole in the ground to hide in (take warning Ball Python breeders ;) ).

I just want to caution you, because our hobby is growing in numbers every year. And every year we get more and more of those poor desperate souls so thirsty for some level of approval and respect that they'll BS their way to sounding like a "pro" and do so behind the veil of anonymity offered by the internet. Others will do so within their own microcosm of the herp hobby, because there is little interaction with the larger national/international arena where the actual pros do come out and happily answer questions and chat everyone up and share their experience with the rest of us.

My door is open to people such as yourself. I am a resource to you. You can always send me emails, you can look me up on Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, the Ratsnake Foundation where I am the Vice-Chairperson. Hell, if you feel so inclined, you can come down to the Metropolitan State College of Denver and knock on the doors of the Biology or Chemistry department and ask them where I can be found (well, at least until May, then I graduate and I'll be playing on the Eastern Plains of Colorado all summer looking for rattlesnakes and whatnot). I'm heading into venom research, so sometime in the near future I'm not going to be the poor starving college student anymore and I'll actually be able to travel to more of the national expos, and get out to talk to people in the hobby and introduce them to the science behind it all (without losing everyone in the uber-nerd techno-jargon) and why it is becoming more important than ever to fight for our hobby. Because there is an awesome future on the horizon for keepers of large colubrids, like the Beauty Snakes. I'm just offering my experience and knowledge to help people have the best possible experience in keeping Beauty Snakes. And I do it all for free! :mrgreen:

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 24th, 2011, 3:47 pm

Well first of all, I can't agree more with your first statement.
And I see your point and now agree with the statement that they are Taiwans.
You sound like you have some good knowledge behind you regarding this species, so thank you for not just calling me stubborn and leaving, if everyone did that then the hobby would die out in a single generation.

I'm glad that these snakes are getting more of a following. They are great snakes and are, in my experience, the most intelligent snake I have had the pleasure of dealing with and holding (other than spilotes cause those things are scary smart, mainly in the way they watch you).
To me these snakes are just so impressive in their stature and attitude.
My favorite thing about them is probably watching them crawl around their enclosure, and for this reason I bought my 6ft 7in female a 6ft tall cage.
Thanks for all your help man.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by John Andermann » April 24th, 2011, 4:16 pm

Calling you stubborn was certainly not necessary, but I typed up that post pretty quickly and just submitted it without really taking a second to think about it. I apologize for that. I figured Ian, who is probably the most knowledgeable person in the US when it comes to beauties, would do a better job of explaining it than I would.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 24th, 2011, 4:28 pm

No hard feelings man, I do type fast without thinking most all the time.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 24th, 2011, 4:29 pm

And hey that's a great Blue Beauty you got there.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Ian Jessup » April 24th, 2011, 6:02 pm

Glad to hear it guys!!!

Yeah, I miss my Spilotes, a shame I had to give them up, but the timing wasn't right. Gotta love that ever watchful look they have. There isn't any other snake that looks at you like that.

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 24th, 2011, 6:16 pm

I kinda see a glimpse of it in Coachwhips but it's not the same, there is a difference between a 6ft snake looking at you like that, and a 10ft snake looking at you like that.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn » April 24th, 2011, 7:39 pm

Nice snakes. Taiwans are actually some I don't have.

I currently have the following together, hoping for eggs:

Blues
Caves
Yunnans

I also have some younger Moquards.
Ian Jessup wrote: The world needs more Beauty Snakes and fewer Ball Pythons. :lol:
Amen. :thumb: Love these guys!!

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 24th, 2011, 8:23 pm

Oh man I want a Cave Beauty, and a Blue, and a Yunnan, and a Chinese, and a Moquards......

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Paul White » April 24th, 2011, 8:25 pm

The world needs more Beauty Snakes and fewer Ball Pythons. :lol:
even though I like ball pythons pretty well, I agree. I'm worried about it when there's 3-4 species that seem to drive the bulk of the hobby. There's other neat boids out there that I don't understand why they're not more popular. And colubrids too.
Although I'm guilty, as I have 3 of htem, and have toyed with buying a pastel albino male to mate to my spider female :)

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn » April 24th, 2011, 8:26 pm

Saunders wrote:Oh man I want a Cave Beauty, and a Blue, and a Yunnan, and a Chinese, and a Moquards......
Well, if I get eggs, I'll keep that in mind. :)

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 25th, 2011, 6:45 am

I'd already have one if my parents would let me get more snakes.
I currently have a Suboc and 2 treefrogs that they know nothing about.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by AlanER » April 25th, 2011, 7:39 am

One of my biggest regrets is selling off my pair of Blue Beauties. They really were the best snakes I have had and plan on buying another pair soon. Great snakes and wondeful post here, I very much enjoyed the lesson I received. :thumb:

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » April 25th, 2011, 5:56 pm

Aww man you shouldn't have sold them, but still, I'm sure you had your reasons.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by AlanER » May 4th, 2011, 6:50 am

After all this conversation, you still have the nerve to sell these as Blue Beauties on Faunaclassifieds? And then I write a respectful post letting you know you have the wrong name. I am thinking to myself "no big deal, everyone makes mistakes." You deal with it by deleting my post and banning me from commenting on your add. You have a lot of nerve kid, and I hope a lot more people besides me gets pissed off at your delibrate mis-identification.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/ ... p?t=236967

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 4th, 2011, 7:21 pm

I didn't delete your post nor ban you from posting.
All I said was that I knew that now and had forgotten about that add.

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 4th, 2011, 7:28 pm

Here is a screen shot of that thread from my computer.
Image

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 4th, 2011, 7:30 pm

Because of your reminder I even changed the add.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/ ... ost1268970

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 4th, 2011, 7:33 pm

The link you posted was to an add I had up from earlier than the one you commented on.
Since I am not allowed to bump up my own posts, and I really need to get these things sold I made I believe 3 of them in a 2 month period.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Paul White » May 4th, 2011, 8:02 pm

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa if I wasn't maxed out on snakes ATM I'd be over those like white on rice. *cry*

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 4th, 2011, 8:11 pm

I would hold one of em back if I wasn't either (and if one was a male).
I'd also keep one if my parents would let me get another snake, but I already have one that they know nothing about, and cornsnake eggs that they don't know about... Oops.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Paul White » May 4th, 2011, 8:45 pm

I keep wishing I'd found my way to bigger colubrids earlier in life; I didn't really have any experience with any of the large colubrids till rather recently, when I was already full up (5 retics...takes lots of room and money). If I'd seen some of them--like king ratsnakes, the beauties, the mussuranas, etc, earlier I may have wound up with them instead. I mean, I knew about them, but finding CBB ones was...difficult to put it mildly even just a few years ago (and they're not exactly all over now either). Oh well. If I start getting revenue neutral on the snakes (i.e. they're paying for food bills at least) I can start expanding some more, but I'm already putting a couple or three grand a year into food for them and I'm not rich so...

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Joseph S. » May 4th, 2011, 9:11 pm

What temperature range/gradient do y'all use for these snakes?

Paul: It's interesting to see how retics(actually, pythons in general) are so popular right now. I'm having trouble believing it will last as they aren't the most practical creatures for most hobbyists(now-I'd love me some of those superdwarf retics that supposedly stay well below 10ft). I'm hoping in the future their is more concentration on offering a variety of species and localities rather than morphs.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by John Andermann » May 4th, 2011, 9:27 pm

I use the same method for all of my large arboreal colubrids. Give them the biggest cage you can, then put a heat panel in one of the top corners. Fasten some branches and hides at varying distances below the heat panel then secure the probe near the highest branch and dial it in to 100F. This gives them a temperature range from room temp - 100F within the cage and that way the snakes can decide. I have tried just about every other method in the past (undertank heaters, ceramic heat emitters, spot lights, heat tape, etc.) and this is by far the best way for large arboreal colubrids IMO.
Image

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) » May 4th, 2011, 9:33 pm

Beauties indeed. Makes me miss the two I just gave away after raising them almost from birth for a year and a half :( :(

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Joseph S. » May 4th, 2011, 9:42 pm

John:

Those are great setups!

On the temps-isn't 100 a bit high?(apparently not based on the behavior of that rat in the photo) I could see truly tropical ratsnakes possibly getting exposed to those temperatures in the wild if they can find a large sunfleck but for the rest not so sure. Wonder what the temperature is inside Malaysian caves?

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by John Andermann » May 4th, 2011, 9:59 pm

100 would indeed be too high if they couldn't escape the heat when they wanted. When the cage is large enough, the temperature drops pretty drastically both vertically and horizontally as you move away from the panel. From what I've read, blue beauties are found both in caves and the surrounding rainforest so they are exposed to big variations in temperature. The idea is to have a constant range of temperatures so the snake can choose. The bottom left hide in that picture stays at about 72 degrees and the top left portion of the branches stays in the high 70s. The bottom right hide is usually in the low 80s and the temperature rises to 100 as you move up the branches on the right.

Before I got this beauty I was told by a number of people that they can't handle any temperature above 82F. It turns out these same people kept the beauties in little tubs. :roll:

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Paul White » May 4th, 2011, 10:06 pm

(now-I'd love me some of those superdwarf retics that supposedly stay well below 10ft)
They're actually probably next on my list. I have a Kayaudia male that's about 5'. WC, I bought him as an LTC back in 07. He's only grown maybe a few hundred grams. The morph superdwarfs are generally NOT locality pure animal, hence the term superdwarf versus using island names like Kayaudia or Honey Island. The morphs have been crossed in from mainland animals--but they are phenomenally pretty.

I actually hope to buy an albino SD female, this year money permitting and mate them in a few years to produce superdwarfs that are very small, and have fresh blood, then breed hets back to each other to produce good high % SD albinos. I also plan on trying ot get a locality female since he should be OK to mate with 2 females in a season, but that may come later. Like I said, I need to get closer to revenue neutral. With the kingsnake eggs I've got cooking, I'm stepping in that direction but it ain't there yet.

I love the retics but yeah they're not for everybody by any stretch. I think 1-2 retics is manageable for most middle class people from a space and money perspective, but whether or not most people are *willing* to put the money and work in I don't know. Pythons in general though...that's a broad brush. Many pythons are easier to keep than these colubrids...balls, spotteds, childrens, etc. I do get why the retics in particular are popular though...most of them have decent tempers (out of 5 I've only got one htat's a real PITA--and it isn't the WC one), and good lord they're smart seeming compared to most other snakes.

One argument against individuals working on tons of species is that it makes it hard to focus and learn and refine your techniques. I know I don't seriously plan to expand species wise for a while (as much as I'm tempted). I want to get a few good years from my kings, house snakes and retics first. After that I'll evaluate...there's a list of species that I think are interesting that I will wind up choosing from. ATBs, rough scaled sand boas, several old world rats, beak nosed snakes, vine snakes...

On high temps: I offer my kings temps ranging to the 90s. It seems to work (they can, of course, get to room temp as well). I've got clutches cooking and more mating going on...usually they're only on the really warm parts (95ish) for a day or so after eating. Most of the rest of the time they're in the cooler sections. I do keep tubs ATM, but they're pretty big ones (33" tubs for 36" snakes, usually with about 2-3" of mulch as substrate)

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by AlanER » May 5th, 2011, 4:51 am

Than I appologize dearly for my mistake Saunders. It must have been something wrong with my computer itself. Carry on.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn » May 5th, 2011, 5:43 am

John Andermann wrote:I use the same method for all of my large arboreal colubrids. Give them the biggest cage you can, then put a heat panel in one of the top corners. Fasten some branches and hides at varying distances below the heat panel then secure the probe near the highest branch and dial it in to 100F. This gives them a temperature range from room temp - 100F within the cage and that way the snakes can decide. I have tried just about every other method in the past (undertank heaters, ceramic heat emitters, spot lights, heat tape, etc.) and this is by far the best way for large arboreal colubrids IMO.
Image

Nice setup!

Did you build it or buy it?

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Paul White » May 5th, 2011, 6:16 am

that's an AP cage. They're my preferred ones as well (although they don't make bigger than 8x3, so I'm having to look elsewhere for bigger retic cages).

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 5th, 2011, 2:29 pm

AlanER wrote:Than I appologize dearly for my mistake Saunders. It must have been something wrong with my computer itself. Carry on.
No hard feelings man.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 5th, 2011, 2:30 pm

As far as temps go, at the top of the cage I have basking spot at about 90 degrees, and at the bottom it is about 70 degrees.
Same sorta things as has been said already but it works well.

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Joseph S. » May 5th, 2011, 2:44 pm

John: The experience of the people keeping blue beauties in tubs is telling and interesting. I've heard similar for high altitude Pituophis-becoming agitated when temperatures get high. I'd be willing to bet if you were to put a temp probe on snakes kept in your enclosure they'd be using the warm and cold spots to maintain a PBT-perhaps for these guys it is 78-80 degrees. Whether if this is a huge advantage over a snake given a narrower range that is still able to thermoregulate to more or less PBT I'm not sure. What I've realized in observing herps in the wild is that frequently it isn't possible to warm up every single day to PBT(cloudy day, funky weather). I'd still assert that it doesn't seem likely to me that beauty snakes would have regular access to places with temperatures at about 100F.

Paul White: Yes I'd only be interested in wild type retics. I understand though that superdwarf retics(het for nothing) are from an island that is undisclosed-but they do represent locality animals(similar to, say, Isle E leachianus.)

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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Jason_Hood » May 5th, 2011, 3:10 pm

High temps- I have personally temp gunned snakes in the wild under tin at over 100 degrees. Most were either injured or sickly but I think they need the option in those cases to heal and rid themselves of parasites. My longterm goal is and has been for a long time, a bigger place with less snakes in larger enclosures. Money is the big killer of that dream but I am slowly getting there.

Jason

Paul White
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Paul White » May 5th, 2011, 5:57 pm

tell me about it...I'd love to put each retic into a truly large (say 18x9x7) enclosure with lots of good tree trunks and limbs and maybe a faux rock wall for climbing (because wild ones can and do climb fairly well from what I understand, even as adults).

John Andermann
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by John Andermann » May 6th, 2011, 1:33 pm

I can't be certain that they have access to such temps in the wild, but I offer it and he uses it often, especially when digesting. I guess I just don't quite understand where you're coming from. The snake knows best when it comes to maintaining his own body temperature, so why confine him to such a narrow range of temperatures?

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Joseph S.
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Joseph S. » May 15th, 2011, 6:19 pm

Guess the way that I should put it is that if the snake doesn't always have the opportunity to heat up so much in the wild it is not necessary to have it available all the time in captivity.

Jason_Hood. I'd imagine all these snakes were in relatively open areas? I'd have a hard time imagining even a large sunfleck allowing a snake in a forested region to reach such temperatures without direct exposure to sunlight. I'm sure decomposing vegetation is another possible hideaway with temperatures in the 90's plus however-again only a rare occurence that a snake could actually find this luxury.

Lloyd Heilbrunn
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn » May 24th, 2011, 6:33 pm

Image


:D

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 25th, 2011, 9:25 am

Nice looking girl you got there. How many eggs?

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Joseph S.
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Joseph S. » May 25th, 2011, 10:10 am

Whooee-she's purty. How big is she anyway?

Lloyd Heilbrunn
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn » May 25th, 2011, 10:23 am

8 eggs so far,I think there are a few more coming.


I would guess about 7 ft, Daddy is around 10!!!

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Saunders
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Saunders » May 25th, 2011, 6:53 pm

Dang, nice clutch.

Lloyd Heilbrunn
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Re: Beauty Ratsnakes

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn » May 25th, 2011, 6:59 pm

4 more eggs today.

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