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 Post subject: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 14th, 2012, 12:48 pm 
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http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Pinky mice seem to have the highest protein content and lowest fat content. It is frequently stated that pinkies are like little butterballs...


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 14th, 2012, 4:13 pm 
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Joseph S. wrote:
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Pinky mice seem to have the highest protein content and lowest fat content. It is frequently stated that pinkies are like little butterballs...


Pink mice and rats lack the calcium of their adult forms. I see a lot of people feeding ball pythons, etc large rat pups instead of mice - in affect limiting the calcium their growing animals need.


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2012, 9:27 pm 
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Nshepard wrote:
Joseph S. wrote:
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Pinky mice seem to have the highest protein content and lowest fat content. It is frequently stated that pinkies are like little butterballs...


Pink mice and rats lack the calcium of their adult forms. I see a lot of people feeding ball pythons, etc large rat pups instead of mice - in affect limiting the calcium their growing animals need.


I've heard that rumor going around for a long time, but has that ever been substantiated? Have you actually observed any ill effects of a diet of rat pups vs adult mice?

I'm just curious. I've heard arguments to the contrary, but don't have any data to back that up either.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 15th, 2012, 7:48 am 

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My babies grow just fine on pinkies or rat pups for a few months. I'm not too worried about it.


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PostPosted: January 15th, 2012, 9:24 am 
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Thanks for posting that Joseph. ...interesting but probably won't affect my food item choices though. My housemate offered me a quote this morning that I find somewhat appropriate here in regards to Gila's reply.

Who Knows wrote:
In theory, theory and practice yield the same result. In practice, theory and practice are askew.


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PostPosted: January 15th, 2012, 11:31 am 
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monklet wrote:
Thanks for posting that Joseph. ...interesting but probably won't affect my food item choices though. My housemate offered me a quote this morning that I find somewhat appropriate here in regards to Gila's reply.

Who Knows wrote:
In theory, theory and practice yield the same result. In practice, theory and practice are askew.



Thats a keeper :)


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 16th, 2012, 12:15 pm 
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monklet wrote:
Thanks for posting that Joseph. ...interesting but probably won't affect my food item choices though. My housemate offered me a quote this morning that I find somewhat appropriate here in regards to Gila's reply.

Who Knows wrote:
In theory, theory and practice yield the same result. In practice, theory and practice are askew.


So at the risk of sounding less intellectual that I would like to believe myself to be... ;) WTH does that mean? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 16th, 2012, 12:21 pm 

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That theory and practice don't always align perfectly.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 16th, 2012, 12:22 pm 
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Haha seconded somewhat-at least in regards to this convo.

Here, it seems that the nutritional data backs what is seen in practice that pinkies are not significantly different from adults. A look at the calcium content does lend support to the idea that adult animals have more calcium...the difference is not huge...a % or two of the total increase.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 16th, 2012, 10:52 pm 
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theory side note : information sometimes changes. Facts are memorized when data is adorned with the merit of verification. Sometimes other tools of verification make moot the previous .
But the Embryo often begins as an Idea, or inferencial epiphany .

Which is why we have both hemispheres. ;)


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 9:32 am 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
information sometimes changes. Facts are memorized when data is adorned with the merit of verification. Sometimes other tools of verification make moot the previous .


I'm still fuming that Mount Everest was measured recently to be 29,035 feet high vs. the 29,028 feet I memorized in grade school! :x

Quote:
Which is why we have both hemispheres. ;)


Which ones...Eastern and Western, or Northern and Southern? :P


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 9:44 am 

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I prefer thinking with my southern hemisphere...easier!


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 9:49 am 
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Paul White wrote:
I prefer thinking with my southern hemisphere...easier!


:lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 10:00 am 
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One thing to remember is that a "properly" frozen (or fresh, live) pinky mice and rats will have a belly full of calcium-rich mammal juice... milk. Milk is a great, readily-usable source of many nutrients, calcium included. So, while their skeletal system is less calcified than that of mature mice, they've got an ample supply of nutrients in their gut.

-Cole


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 12:37 pm 
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So maybe that's why my leopard geckos do great on a diet of 100% pinkies. I've been told or read tons of times that it was a horrible diet....the 'ol theory and practice thing, again.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 3:52 pm 
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Wow...do you supp. with calcium or vitamins at all? It doesn't seem too cost effective of a way to feed them however!

It has long been stated mealworms are innappropriate but some breeders apparently use calcium/ vitamin supp'ed mealies as the entirety of the leopards diets as well.


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 4:16 pm 
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Im a dubia / silkworm kind of guy .

I have truly had many daydreams though, of what I would do if I was suddenly super rich - I would love to explore other biomes of the world in search of new edible livefood types - like huge , clean larvae that could be cultured for captive herps . Imagine the possibilities! Righty-Hem Fun :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 4:33 pm 
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Joseph S. wrote:
It has long been stated mealworms are innappropriate but some breeders apparently use calcium/ vitamin supp'ed mealies as the entirety of the leopards diets as well.


I think the issue is weather your are using store bought refrigerated mealworms, or breeding your own. When you use refrigerated worms, they are generally dormant, and not eating, so their guts are empty. If you have an active breeding colony, they are eating the food you give them, and contain the nutrients from that food. I don't think you can gut load mealworms very well by just letting them sit with food overnight.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 5:32 pm 
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No supplements, just straight pinkies for the last decade. I raise mice, and I hate bugs! - and the geckos do just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm 
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Kent: Fascinating. Pinkies, being calorically dense are probably fed either less frequently or in smaller amounts than bugs? How often? Also..I'd assume you only feed pinkies of various sizes and no fuzzy mice or anything more developed. I suppose pinkies provide D3 somewhere as well...

Also, do you raise baby geckos? Those I'd assume you'd have to start on bugs...field sweepings maybe.

I'd love to see some photos of your group!

The funny thing is is if you posted this anywhere else you'd get your @$$ pounded into the wall by someone insisting this is bad...I'll admit to skepticism and raised eyebrows but its clear that it is working well for you and your geckos.

psyon: that may very well be it. I think mealies are underrated just because they were one of the first feeders insects to come into use.

Kelly-what we need is something that is as clean and odorless as orangespotted roaches but with the behavior and juiciness of red runners. Or mealworms minus the dust.(I hear of some people using cactus pads to rear/water these guys instead of taters/carrots...I bet that helps alot since the pads won't mold easily!)


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 12:37 am 
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Cactus pads - I like that idea! I would like to raise other roaches - but. where I live Im pushing it with my dubia colony . How I water them and also the crickets at work is in a plastic flowerpot dish , lined with bio-balls. I tried water pellets but I dunno they just give me the replicated creeps somehow.

I would like to share something else , Im glad Kents leos are doing ok , but I did lose a leo - my favorite sire to hepatic disease , and I did feed him and his main doe only pinkies . I liked not having to worry about large crickets soiling the brood box and getting at the eggs . Plus my male - who I named The Banana Kid would put his big pretty face right at the door and damn he just loved them so much . He was an albino and I have noticed albino leos seem to be more delicate hepatically and prone to lipidosis and pancreatitis, perhaps the polygenic defect of albinism runs tandem with other differences or deficets of organ formation or function. Just recently the doe had to be put down as well - she was about 9 or 10 years old - and the pale fatty spots on her very swollen liver could clearly be seen through her skin . She was a normal leo and outlived The Banana Kid by 2 years. Now I just feed silkworms and thawed dubia and have handed the occasional extra thawed pinky to my breeder leos while Im feeding the baby snakes. Im glad when I hear other keepers animals are doing great , and I admit that I not only fed The Banana Kid and Biker Girl pinkies , but I know I Overfed them as well :(


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 9:28 am 
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I like the cactus pad idea too. Another benefit is that they are high in calcium.


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 12:54 pm 
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I feed my girls a pinkie or two a week. And it's usually not brand-new pinkies, but ones maybe a week old or so. When I had a male, they bred like crazy, and I did need to get neo crickets to feed the youngsters. I sold the male awhile back.

There's a lot "superstitious knowledge" in the herp-care arena from what I can see. I'm mainly a snake guy, and have been keeping and breeding rosy boas for years with a great deal of success. According to nearly everyone, leaving water in with them around the clock is a death sentence..........and I never take their water out.


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 1:17 pm 
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A lot of climate control advice should really not be set in stone, since home climates vary so much depending on how much heating or cooling you use, and the actual ambient temperature and humidity in your home...which of course changes over the course of the year. Someone in a more humid environ might find high humidity in their rosy boa cages problematic. I think it is important to take an animals needs into account and consider how easily you can provide for those. Trying to keep a desert species in a humid environ, or trying to maintain cool forest species where summers get really hot...while it is plenty possible, may not provide as much success as keeping something more suited to the prevailing conditions in your home.

Herpkeepers tend not to make much use of the scientific method-due to the low number of animals of each species most people keep. So a few select cases tend to cause overgeneralizations...people think because they are having success this must be the only way. Sometimes they are right, often it is later shown not to be the case. An eggeating snake group on Yahoo had a theory that Dasypeltis medici could not eat the eggs of ground nesting birds...some members had trouble with their animals which only ate, say, dove/parakeet eggs. After only a few weeks in my care my snake took its first quail egg, and now eats chicken eggs. I had a male which refused button quail eggs but a keeper in Europe informed me both of his pair will eat quail eggs.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 2:35 pm 
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The window of scope with hands on the pane . There is only so much one can actually experience with ones own personal collection . Having one specimen is only a taste - 20 and your aquainted - 100 and your more aquainted . But the relationship of specimen, species and scenario goes well with interdisciplinary body. So many things we think are unresearched -actually are well founded and not at all exempt in reptilian health and biology

My disclosure about the 2 leos was made only to highlight my own mistake . I was fully aware of dietary excess as clinical reality, but I made a concession in favor of micromanagement and also in catering to their whims. I told myself I would enlarge their palate (they came to reject all else when offered and so I just gave them their favorite) but procrastinated . And yes I overfed them.

The first sign of faulty renal/hepatic metabolization problems in ecto /invert eating herps is often an oddly unsatiable appetite at onset. Females with enlargement and internal fatty deposit will also be more prone to dyscocia and the swollenness is often attributed to that alone


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 5:31 pm 
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gila-91 wrote:
Nshepard wrote:
Joseph S. wrote:
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Pinky mice seem to have the highest protein content and lowest fat content. It is frequently stated that pinkies are like little butterballs...


Pink mice and rats lack the calcium of their adult forms. I see a lot of people feeding ball pythons, etc large rat pups instead of mice - in affect limiting the calcium their growing animals need.


I've heard that rumor going around for a long time, but has that ever been substantiated? Have you actually observed any ill effects of a diet of rat pups vs adult mice?

I'm just curious. I've heard arguments to the contrary, but don't have any data to back that up either.


I haven't in your more hardy animals (corns, balls, milks, etc) - but I have in monitors, vipers, and some others - no real data, but I have seen growth issues that are diet based. With monitors I've seen jaw line issues (under bites, etc). Vipers really benefit from leaner diets and I feed mine once a month and they stay plump.

Its a general theory that I think has some weight to it. I think pinks / rat pups are fine for growing snakes, the issue I have is when they are of size to take adult mice and people feed them large rat pups of similar size that lack the ossified structure (calcium). I really practice this on future breeders I am growing up. I will say if you have valid logistical concerns and you've never seen an issue, then thats one thing (like if you only breed rats for your collection). But when the choice is available, I see the extra calcium only as a benefit. I also dust vitamins on most of the mice/rats I feed - something I think a lot of snake keepers just don't practice. Another thing is male vs female adult rats/mice; I bet you have a much leaner meal using the males (esp true when feeding out old breeder stock).


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 5:53 pm 
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Those are good points . On intuition I will feed thawed hoppers or weanlings to lizards that are large enough to take them (and they usually are) rather then unweaned pinks and fuzzies - for the leaner physiology and skeletal integrity

UVB takes care of the rest


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 7:36 pm 
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once again, pinkies ARE leaner than adult mice. Lets not mix up issues perhaps caused by too much fat with issues caused by not enough calcium. As mentioned by a member or two on here if you want to avoid fat avoid XXL "bomber" retired breeder mice.

The numbers do suggest that adult mice do contain a bit more calcium than pink mice...I think it is fair to assume the pink mice did have stomachs full of milk though you'd have to look into it to be sure.

Theoretically, calcium dusted pinkies would provide a lean and more calcium rich whole prey diet...haha


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 8:09 pm 
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I think what should be taken into consideration is milkfat - and proportional factors to reptile size. Also lipids are required by organisms for cell function . Unless one is keeping tiny brazilian models, painstakingly trying avoiding all fat would be a mistake.

But the truth remains that our cultured food choices are limited - and many reptile species are fed foods out of availability - not because they are the best choices for them

Im telling you - I think we need more food types :D


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 8:37 pm 
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admit it - almost all of us would like to be gifted a tiny brazilian model at least Once in our damn lives.


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 11:11 pm 

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cactus pads? tell me again why you think these are desirable for gut loading insects...? I am a tortoise keeper in the desert, and I grow spineless Opuntia cactus pads for my tortoise herd. These pads are well liked, a great source of fiber, and high in Calcium, but very low (approx. 1%?) in protein...thus I would not think a good choice for gut loading insects for lizards? Also, I feed these low protein cactus pads when I also feed relatively high protein alfalfa (12-15%), to help "average" out the protein to a moderate amount, i.e. 6-7%. A lot of guess work here, the numbers are WAG's for sure, but I am producing nice animals with beautiful smooth shells, indistinguishable form wild ones. Different things work for different keepers, and long term results are the most meaningful. Kelly makes some good points about the effects on livers of the mouse diet for leopard geckos, but Kent's short term (?) use of them seems OK... I am an advocate of wide variety diets, it buffers our errors and provides micronutrients etc. I have seen theories on foods change wildly over the decades, and thus the varied diet seems like the safest to me. If I were feeding pinkies to lizards, i would consider dipping the pinkies rumps in Calcium powder.

BTW, you can usually buy cactus pads for a reasonable price at markets that cater to Mexican clientele...Cardena's market in So. Cal for example. Much cheaper than some of the those internet sources which I think are really sticking it to the unwary... Also, they are very easy to grow, but you must have well drained soil. I have had good success with them in much of California, including the northern valley near Chico, Ca.

Vic ,Imperial Valley, Ca.


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2012, 11:36 pm 
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Ultraviolet radiation and the chain of mechanisms that culminate in the synthesis of d3 for tissue and bone growth has been skirted , interestingly , never more then since the Recession. The lights cost $

These mechanisms start with cells of its detection in the dermis (of even herps that synthesis D3 from prey assimilation - like snakes) to photoreception. Providing it optimizes calcium absorption Normally - without troubleshooting with methods not co signed by herp veterinary science

290 to 319 nanometers - its as basic as air and water . Do we disregard it so easily simply because we as mammals are unable to see it?


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 19th, 2012, 11:25 am 
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Victort: Cactus pads don't mold easily, so would be a better source of moisture for mealworms. They could always be given in addition to some other fodder(oatmeal, etc.) or other gutloads.

On pinkies, you came to the exact same conclusion as I have. If one were to use pinkies for lizards, noting their somewhat lower calcium amts, then a bit of calcium wouldn't hurt and might even be helpful.

One of the biggest issues is that we do not know frequently what is BEST for reptiles(heck, we don't really know what is best for humans either). However, we have a good idea how to keep them alive, active, and breeding for as long as and in some cases longer than their natural lifespan.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 6:00 pm 
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Here's one of my pinkie-fed females - she was out and about, so I snapped a shot this morning.

Image


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 6:19 pm 
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Obviously sickly and emmaciated Kent ;) but very cute none the less. I'd stick with the pinkie diet. ...heck, might even take it up myself if it could help.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 6:45 pm 
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No - this is not responsible . Leos with bioaccumulated lipid deposits Always look fine on the outside for a very long time . Unless you are including recent blood work or a close up illuminance of her abdomen this is not fair to others . You are free to do as you like but there are countless people who peruse forums and will do as others suggest .

I included my experience -as my own - in no way meant to discredit your methods . Please do not take it personally.

If reptiles acquire bioaccumulative pancreatitis or hepatic lipidosis it is a slow , discreet illness that becomes quite painful toward the end .

Whereas in the past , dietary deficiencies were one of the most frequently seen problems in captive herps, because of more widespread information about nutrition becoming general knowledge, today issues of dietary excess has swollen up to take its place.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 6:57 pm 

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so...it's irresponsible of him to share his experience (over a fairly long time) because it contradicts yours?


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 7:10 pm 
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Kelly, are you suggesting that Kent's animal appears as fat (e.g., having bioaccumalted lipid deposits) ? Serious question, I know very little about this species.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 7:23 pm 
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It is irresponsible because some things are true whether we believe them or not .

Please dont turn this into something personal . Disregard what I have shared and research it. Do you think my two leos are the only ones I have encountered?


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 7:30 pm 
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monklet wrote:
Kelly, are you suggesting that Kent's animal appears as fat (e.g., having bioaccumalted lipid deposits) ? Serious question, I know very little about this species.


Monklet I hope some factor in Kents leos made possible the bipass of it .

I am only saying that reptiles will look healthy externally with such problems, and they occur so slowly that it is extremely easy to let appearances decieve us from the realities of what can be tolerated by their biology


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 7:35 pm 
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I Want Kents leos to be in perfect health - For as long as they live - but I also know that others will not be so lucky feeding 100% mammal diet to a reptile whoes organs evolved to metabolize arthropod prey.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 8:19 pm 

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I don't think it's every actually irresponsible to share something that has worked for you. And it seems like this has worked very well for him. It's *not* personal--it's a problem I see on a lot of forums where people castigate other people for not doing things they same way they do when different methods ALL seem to work fairly well.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 8:44 pm 
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What seems to work being the new anarchism of knowledge is actually what is the problem of forums . I was so hesitant to bring up the subject - I didnt want to. I spoke on a subject - not to or about any person.

It had to be included and so I did.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 11:10 pm 
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Looks like I better cut out the mealworms-everyone knows they chew their way out of a reptiles stomach.

I remember it was a common stated fact that hissing roaches were very fatty(see all that white stuff when you squish them? thats fat.....believe me) A company had nutritional analysis run on a few roach species being used and hissers turned out to have the lowest fat content!

Check this out.
http://www.chameleonforums.com/nutritio ... ysis-2520/
Look at the cricket. It has about 3x as much of it made up of protein as opposed to fat. Now look at the pinkie...it has 5x as much protein compared to fat...(note that the rodentpro analysis is dry matter so thusly no moisture).

So actually...crickets seem to be more fattening-for the amount of protein ingested-than pinkies. And mealworms have about a 2:1 protein to fat ratio.

Kelly: You admit to overfeeding your leopards that developed fat deposits. The excessive intake of calories, rather than the type of food, perhaps was the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 1:00 am 
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Your arguments are moot Im sorry but the comparisons are ridiculous, mammalian milkfat and proteins being compared to the lipids in insects .

Please . Just contact a veterinarian. ARAV preferred. Thank you and good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 1:23 am 
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And - no minimizing or being elusive , lets keep it real .

Hello Doctor I am planning to feed my leopard gecko an exclusive long term diet of pinkies . What do you think? What would be the results of a diet composed 100% of this food item?


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 7:18 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm
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Location: Amarillo, Texas
You're the one arguing his CAN'T be healthy despite them having been kept this way.
I've seen fat leos that had only been fed insects...so I'm inclined to agree that the amount is at least as important as the type. He's the one citing...you know, evidence. Studies on nutritional content.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 8:01 am 
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Quote:
the comparisons are ridiculous, mammalian milkfat and proteins being compared to the lipids in insects

Disregard what I have shared


Done!


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 8:36 am 
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Hepalipidosis
The best cure is prevention

Douglas Mader DVM, Veterinarian Q&A, Reptiles Magazine, December 1999


Q: My vet said that my savannah monitor died from fatty liver. I asked him what caused it and he said that it is something that "just happens." What is fatty liver? What causes it? Can it be treated?

A: Fatty liver, or hepatic lipidosis, which is the medical term, refers to a condition where the patient's liver is infiltrated with excessive fat. There are many causes of fatty liver, and in most cases, the condition itself is not a cause of death. In fact, in most species, except for the cat, a patient can have fatty Ever with no untoward effects.

Fatty liver can be caused by a number of metabolic conditions such as diabetes, Cushing's disease, protein deficiencies, hypothyroidism and more.

Usually, a predisposing factor is obesity. If a patient goes off food (called anorexia) the fat in the body is mobilized in the blood to the liver where it is to be used as energy for the body. But, for some reason, the liver is unable to utilize this rapid influx of fat, and the liver becomes "fatty."

This is common in wild caught herps. These animals usually come into captivity in good body condition but then due to some cause, whether it is improper housing, poor diet or some management disorder, they go off food.

In their struggle to begin eating, they mobilize their fat. Then when they die and are necropsied (an animal autopsy), the fatty liver is discovered.

To an inexperienced person this looks quite abnormal (the liver actually takes on swollen, yellow appearance), and it is assumed that it is the cause of death. As a result, the person doing the necropsy stops looking for the real cause.

I see fatty liver in savannah monitors commonly. These animals are routinely misfed in captivity-typically they are fed high amounts of dog food, live fatty mice or any other high calorie food. On top of this, they are kept in small cages and not allowed to roam and hunt (which is normal for them in the wild). As a result, they become couch potatoes and get fat.

Somewhere down the road, these fat savannahs develop disease (kidney, liver, etc.) and stop eating. Now this fat lizard is a prime candidate to develop a fatty liver. I can't tell you how many calls I get about fatty liver causing death in savannahs.

Fatty liver can be treated if the underlying cause can be identified and corrected. Force-feeding (often with a stomach tube in place for some species), antibiotics as needed, steroids and vitamins are often required.

If your reptile gets sick, take it to your herp vet immediately. Better yet, if you have a reptile, house it correctly, feed it correctly and care for it correctly. Then, you will only have to take it to your herp vet for regular, routine annual health checks instead of emergency life or death visits!


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2012, 9:38 am 
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Paul White wrote:
You're the one arguing his CAN'T be healthy despite them having been kept this way.
I've seen fat leos that had only been fed insects...so I'm inclined to agree that the amount is at least as important as the type. He's the one citing...you know, evidence. Studies on nutritional content.



"Ive seen fat leos that had only been fed insects" Its not about being FAT . And what your inclined to believe luckily has been countered by the input which was posted for others to see , so that they would not blindly follow . They will investigate , perhaps talk to a veterinarian with leo experience . or experienced persons vested in their husbandry and health.

I have raised, bred, and had direct, accountable care involvement with leopard geckos . The numbers of specimens reach into the thousands.


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