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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 11:32 am 
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I'm not familiar with this knowledge, so please then explain in biochemical terms the difference between mammalian and invertebrate sterols and the specific differential effect on hepatic function and longevity.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 11:37 am 
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Kelly, that's all well and good, but shouldn't you have at least asked what the diet was of my brothers three monitors was before you jump to conclusions that a mammalian diet was to blame?


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 11:43 am 
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As I said before - my stance of knowledge comes from long term and broadly scenario comparative observation, veterinary training and discussion with veterinarians and other experianced keepers - I am not a biochemist so my presentation is basic and my understanding workable from a keepers standpoint . I am not one to scurry through textbooks or googled articles to copy them . I also would like to learn more about the science of nutrition and organ function. I make no pretense otherwise. It would be interesting however as one who has looked at alot of leos , just out of curiosity , to see a belly shot of one of your leos . I have noticed in leos fed moderate to heavy pinkies a difference in the appearance of the liver , and how it visualizes through the skin . By holding the leo gently and impressing even supine pressure dorsum the visual of abdomen presents itself clearer


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 11:51 am 
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Ok, again, that's fine and dandy, but what does that have to do with the fact that you are making assumptions about the diet of my brothers monitors because I told you that the vet said they died of fatty liver disease?


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 11:55 am 
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psyon wrote:
Kelly, that's all well and good, but shouldn't you have at least asked what the diet was of my brothers three monitors was before you jump to conclusions that a mammalian diet was to blame?


But if you read my post you will see that I simply said it was unremarkable, as it happens so regularly. I dont even do that with clients. People call all the time wanting to describe their problem on the phone but I tell them to bring the animal or go to a good vet if they state something that crosses that red line of precaution . But if its like something vague I want to see it , in case its nothing , to help them if its something non medical , like a stuck shed , or pre mbd because they have a cheap weak uvb bulb or no uvb.

Livers get fatty because of lots of stuff like what you have said - viruses bacterial disease - and low temps can make the organs strain . What seemed like emphasis on diet in my posts is because to me I see it as an invisible factor , because its so easy to feed guys certain things . But it can cause problems in and of its own merit . Cholesterol can even cause problems in mammal carnivores and humans in dietary excess


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 12:04 pm 
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Livers get fatty because of lots of stuff like what you have said - viruses bacterial disease - and low temps can make the organs strain.


See, now we are getting onto the same page. The underlying cause is not always diet, yet people will assume diet was the issue. In cases where disease was to blame, vets do not tend to investigate further to find out what the illness was. They simply see fatty deposits, and write it off as the cause of death. While it very well may have been the last nail in the coffin, it would certainly be nice to know if a viral or bacterial agent was involved. If necropsies are stopped after fatty deposits are noticed in the liver, we hinder our ability to learn to better care for these animals.

And just for the record, all of my brothers monitors were fed a diet primarily composed of hissing cochroaches at the time of their death, with mice offered once or twice a month. They were all between two and three feet in length. The Savi was on an invertebrate diet for all of his life, but I have no clue what the two black throats were kept on prior to being in the care of my brother.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 12:16 pm 
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It could totally be possible your brothers monitors could have died from any number of things , and also had a fatty liver . A huge proportion of captive herps fed certain foods probably have some degree of subclinical liver distress. Just like all the other dietary organ diseases in all animals and humans.

But I have known so many savs especially but not only , to drop dead suddenly . They do not linger, for all their rugged appearance .

I am not posting dietary factor at exclusion of other factors - I am presenting it as an important factor , of its own impact.

And I am sorry about the monitors dying . It must have been horribly jarring and its obvious you cared . Not many people go to the trouble of necropsy . Im sorry if you felt they were cavelier , or not thorough in investigation. That happens and its a terrible thing because a situation like that is an opportunity for a practice to try to do their best work , for someone who isnt even going to get their animal/s back alive , but wants earnestly to know what happened to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 12:21 pm 
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Well now I see why we missed each other . We have had our hand on different parts of the elephant.

You have experienced people assuming diet cause , when evidence of your diet says otherwise , and I have experienced the direct opposite (most of the time) that no problem exists because the guys eat the pinkies so readily for so long.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 12:37 pm 
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I am not posting dietary factor at exclusion of other factors - I am presenting it as an important factor , of its own impact.


My only issue through out this discussion is that people, vets included, exclude other causes of death, other than diet, as a possibility after seeing fatty deposits. In savs, and other monitors, low temps are often blamed as well. Often these presumptions are made without ever asking what the temperatures were in the enclosure, or what the diet was. Just like it was never asked about here, the vet never asked my brother about either. He told my brother than fatty liver disease was common savs, and that is what killed them, and that was the end of it.

In the case of savs, they have been kept for some time, and I think there is a good general understanding of their needs. When people write off fatty liver disease as cause of death in eastern hogs, without investigating any underlying cause, it makes a very awesome animal inaccessible, because no one wants to breed them and deal with having to feed them toads. I have been weighing my food items lately before feeding to my animals. I have one eastern hog that eats toads, and others that eat mice. I have noticed that that the toads I feed my adult hog are 35g, but are much smaller than the large mice I feed my colubrids, even though they also weigh around 35g. That is due to the fact that toads are leaner, and their mass is defined more by muscle than fat. I DO think that the fat on the rodents is what causes issue for the hogs, but not because it causes fatty liver disease directly. My guess, and only a guess, is that many people who try to keep eastern hogs, are not feeding them enough. The idea was originally posed to me from another keeper who believes their metabolism requires a higher caloric in take. Keeping that in mind, and noticing the weight difference between toads and mice, I presume that many keepers are switching their eastern hogs over to eating mice of the same size, and are feeding them at the same rate they were feeding toads, if not less. If you feed mice of the same size, at the same schedule they were eating toads, you would be cutting their caloric intake by half, if not more. The rapid weight loss is often attributed to fatty liver disease, but it may simply be caused by underfeeding the animals. The body would then metabolize stored fat (which causes the weight loss), and a rapid influx of fat could cause the deposits as mentioned in the post citing what the vet said a few pages prior.

I in no way what so ever claim this to be 100% true. I in no way endorse the idea that people shove food down the throat of an eastern hog as fast as they will take it. I am only proposing that there is an alternate possibility of what actually causes the death of these snakes when fed rodents.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 12:42 pm 
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Kent VanSooy wrote:
I'm not familiar with this knowledge, so please then explain in biochemical terms the difference between mammalian and invertebrate sterols and the specific differential effect on hepatic function and longevity.


the longevity/indeterminant was meant phenotypically as is suggested with many reptiles, amphibians, fish .


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 12:51 pm 
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psyon if your hogs go on a fast , do you just wait? I tend to not worry in their particular case but I only have cared for westerns. Because it is my own "belief" if you will, that its not only seasonal (it occurs not just then, and mostly with older , bigger hogs) but the bodies way of reposing the metabolism , because of richer diet. But some people just go nuts when their hogs stop eating .

Im no hog expert I just want to know how you feel about it as a hog keeper of many


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:02 pm 
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My nasicus regularly fasts. I don't worry about her. She went 6 months without eating as a neonate, only lost 1g (I weighed her weekly).


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:04 pm 
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I never understood why people want to stress a snake by force feeding the very item one wants it to feed on , of its own volition. Thats why tube feeding is such a useful tool. There is such diminished impact and no stress association with the feeding event. Plus there is the control - of food material and amount . Sometimes just a little dab will do ya. And with really weak or sick nonfeeding snakes you can give just enough nourishment to boost the immunity and effectiveness of the meds.


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:07 pm 
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John Vanek wrote:
My nasicus regularly fasts. I don't worry about her. She went 6 months without eating as a neonate, only lost 1g (I weighed her weekly).



Yeah my old roommates hog does that . He will only eat small fuzzies and not very often . Hes very old .


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:13 pm 
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I have a younger one that goes on and off feeding, and my male kennerlyi hasn't eaten in a couple months. I monitor their weight, but I don't make a big deal out of it unless they show significant weight loss. One of the milks we had at the nature center went a year without eating, and only lost a few grams in weight. If they start to show significant weight loss, then I worry, but then I look for why they aren't eating. Force feeding is only used on animals that are near death, and I need to keep them alive while they heal. Had an eastern hog found in the wild years back that I kept alive for a while that way (it had lots of wounds, and everyone told me to euthanize it), and I've had some leos come in that were skin and bones, that I had to open their mouths and put in mealworms and wax worms.


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:34 pm 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
I never understood why people want to stress a snake by force feeding the very item one wants it to feed on , of its own volition. Thats why tube feeding is such a useful tool. There is such diminished impact and no stress association with the feeding event. Plus there is the control - of food material and amount . Sometimes just a little dab will do ya. And with really weak or sick nonfeeding snakes you can give just enough nourishment to boost the immunity and effectiveness of the meds.


No stress? Tube feeding isn't stressful?


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:44 pm 
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If its done well and smoothly - a snake can be tube fed in seconds and barely raise its respiration rate


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:50 pm 
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psyon why do eastern hogs seem so rare. I think I have had one group of them come in somewhere where I worked but I was the boid person and hardly took note of them . I dont even know or remember if they were ok .

I see them listed on the internet , and mentioned . I have never seen one up close . They are like an american mystery snake to me


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 1:59 pm 
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They have a real affinity for Toads that makes them tough to keep, and some don't switch over very readily to rodents. I see them occassionally in the wild but they're not common for me ever.


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 2:04 pm 
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I saw a pic of melanistic hog - it looked too burly to be a western but Im not sure. It was pure jet black and it was a pretty hot snake to me


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 2:06 pm 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
psyon why do eastern hogs seem so rare. I think I have had one group of them come in somewhere where I worked but I was the boid person and hardly took note of them . I dont even know or remember if they were ok.


They are not as available as nasicus for sure. Most of the ones I see listed for sale are wild caught. I think they are much cooler than nasicus personally, both in their behavior, and variability. I know of many people who said they wanted to keep and breed them, but did not want to deal with keeping a supply of amphibians on hand.

Quote:
I saw a pic of melanistic hog - it looked too burly to be a western but Im not sure. It was pure jet black and it was a pretty hot snake to me


Jesus I hate it when people call black hogs melanistic. Some of them are just black. It would be like calling a black rat snake, or a black king snake melanistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 3:44 pm 
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They are just black? I didnt know that . I thought they were melanistic!


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 3:53 pm 
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Hey you know , I feed my spotted turtle pinkies . Just to let you know Im not an anti pinky nut. If some long term researched species profile is out there of lipid tolerances/recommendations it may well be I feed him pinkies too often . But I have 2 baby kings personal at home and if he is knocking around when Im thawing well I pop one in for him too. Pinkies have alot going for them general nutritive . Im not a fanatic about it which is why such resistance against what I considered an objective view was troubling to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 3:56 pm 
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Just since sarcasm is hard to express in text, and hard to detect, let me clarify here...

When people refer to a snake as "melanistic", what they seem to mean is "hypermelanistic", which would suggest higher levels of dark pigment, even in places where there isn't usually darker colors always. People have posted pictures of hypermelanistic garter snakes on here, and when you look at the ventral scales, they have a darker blue-ish gray appearance.

Here is a black eastern hog
Image

Here is it's belly
Image

There is nothing abnormal about the pigments in the animal... it just happens to be solid color. There probably are hypermelanistic hogs going around, but just because the damn thing is black doesn't make it hypermelanistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 4:11 pm 
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Psyon: Interesting stuff. Do you suppose that fat in rodents would cause issues long term for hognose?(perhaps calcium dusted pinkies would be appropriate) Would other prey items like frozen quail chicks be appropriate?


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2012, 4:25 pm 
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Joseph, if my hypothesis has any merit, which I believe it does, then I don't believe the rodent fat would cause any issues in the long term. Before switching my own snakes to mice, I did talk to the only breeder of eastern hogs I could find, and he informed me that he had raised a few generations from egg to breeding adult on rodent diets. It's anecdotal, I know, but it gives some credence to my hypothesis. If it holds true that it is not the type of fat that matters, but the amount, or lack there of, then there shouldn't be any difference with frozen quail chicks, other than caloric density. Aside from that, I couldn't comment on the differences between mammal, avian, and amphibian fats or which of them may or may not be better.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: February 19th, 2012, 5:07 pm 
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We come in a full circle.

I understand fatty acid composition differs in some animals(particularly certain species of marine fish are rich in HUFA's such as Omega 3's). The necessity of these particular compounds in the diets of certain marine fish/animals has been supported by aquaculture studies. Marine fish definetly differ in both amount and type of lipids in them(look up oilfish-they actually have a lipid composition high in undigestible wax esters which can coat the digestive tract)...apparently feeding turtles and crocodilians certain marine fish such as anchovies really screws up their organs-if this is not hearsay I will get a primary source for it.

Insects here compared to poultry and fish...
http://www.food-insects.com/Vol4%20no1.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: August 12th, 2013, 9:19 pm 
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It is much more than only an issue of fatty acids, or levels of fat.

Mammals and poikilothermic vertebrates have different fatty acid binding proteins. These facilitate the transport & metabolism of fatty acids.

FABPs are tissue specific in type and in high concentrate in cells that metabolize fatty acids.

The fact that FABPs are different in mammals than reptiles and amphibians is perhaps significant to consider than only the levels of fatty acids in food items.

From what i have read, i am thinking that there are affinity mechanisms that could be inherent in poikilotherms that ingest other poikilotherms as a mainstay diet , and the thing isnt a debate thing but more of a quest toward uncomplacency with the limited array of food items available to herpetoculture, towards true health. This may mean going outside the standard rodent model - and who knows maybe even in the future designing quality composite food items that through habituation, presentation techniques or scent enhancement make acceptance possible.

Or figure out how to turn an invasive species into a readily available frozen food source. (bullfrogs/bullfrog tads)


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PostPosted: August 12th, 2013, 10:06 pm 
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One last thing - FABPs in birds are grouped with reptiles, amphibians and fish, which if relevant, and i think it may be, could make the idea of specific composite nutrition an even broader and easier to concept to achieve.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 10th, 2015, 8:17 pm 
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For instance...Turkey!


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 10th, 2015, 11:40 pm 
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Image


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 11th, 2015, 12:16 am 
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Also ground pheasant w/liver (above) and tilapia.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 11th, 2015, 2:23 pm 

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Now that this topic (of particular self interest) has been revived (not always a bad thing, some good info and considerations in old herpetoculture posts) I would like to add to what was said by Don Becker in 2012.

Don notes that type of "fat" isn't the problem, but the amount, and I found a breeder's page that gives more anecdotal support to this idea.

I was reading a year or two ago on an H. nascius page about "fatty liver disease" in H. nascius. I'd credit the page if I remembered which one it was,but I can't :?. Anyways, the page's author wrote that he managed to avoid any issues with fatty liver and excessive fat content in his H. nascius on rodent diets by giving them less than typically given to a rodent eating species. From what I recall, only pinkies were used, and amount was simply increased as the snakes aged. Not only this, but whereas someone may feed a breeder P. guttatus once a week, he was feeding his H nascius once every 2-3 weeks.

As far as type of fat, enzymes that break down food content are derived from food content. Over time, a herp being fed a rodent of certain species and age, will begin to develop the appropriate enzymes to digest the proteins, lipids, carbohydrates in food. This leads me to support the concept that lipid type has nothing to do with fatty liver.


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PostPosted: September 11th, 2015, 2:49 pm 
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I don't want to debate this again, its a multi layered subject that can't be addressed anecdotally.

The Leo above is Buttercup, and the feeding event is actually a part of stationary food item recognition investigations I have been doing for some time now.


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PostPosted: September 11th, 2015, 3:27 pm 
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Birds, mammals and reptiles can continue to "function" with significant loss of healthy liver tissue. So unless a breeder or keeper was incorporating clinical means of assessments, observation is moot.

Because I am interested in my animals being perfect in organ health, i am willing to explore interdisciplinary information and make empirical decisions based on them, for the time being, rather than the conventional paradigm of it eats, it breeds, its fine. Just my preference.


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PostPosted: September 18th, 2015, 11:12 am 
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simus343 wrote:
I was reading a year or two ago on an H. nascius page about "fatty liver disease" in H. nascius. I'd credit the page if I remembered which one it was,but I can't :?. Anyways, the page's author wrote that he managed to avoid any issues with fatty liver and excessive fat content in his H. nascius on rodent diets by giving them less than typically given to a rodent eating species. From what I recall, only pinkies were used, and amount was simply increased as the snakes aged. Not only this, but whereas someone may feed a breeder P. guttatus once a week, he was feeding his H nascius once every 2-3 weeks.

As far as type of fat, enzymes that break down food content are derived from food content. Over time, a herp being fed a rodent of certain species and age, will begin to develop the appropriate enzymes to digest the proteins, lipids, carbohydrates in food. This leads me to support the concept that lipid type has nothing to do with fatty liver.


Funny cause a lot of care articles you read on western hogs basically tell you "keep em hot and feed em alot"


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PostPosted: September 18th, 2015, 7:08 pm 
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Ok, very gently and in the spirit of responsibility, since many take information about herp care in a format absorbed by many, very seriously, so I must ask about this statement :


Quote:

As far as type of fat, enzymes that break down food content are derived from food content. Over time, a herp being fed a rodent of certain species and age, will begin to develop the appropriate enzymes to digest the proteins, lipids, carbohydrates in food. This leads me to support the concept that lipid type has nothing to do with fatty liver.



Where is this from?


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 19th, 2015, 7:11 am 

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Years ago in a General Biology class when I first started college - combined with the assumption that the same way herps build digestive enzymes is the same way people do.

The focus of the lecture was mostly on proteins and carbohydrates, so I'm taking a guess that lipids are similar.

The enzymes "are created" by breakdown and modification of corresponding proteins and carbohydrates that were ingested in food.

The text was a McGraw-Hill biology publication - I can't remember which exact one, it's been four years since I took the course and I just rented the book.


For better understanding - take a self-enrichment course at a local community college is my suggestion to people that read what I wrote, or do some digging into published papers online. I will admit, what I said may very well be wrong - I'm writing everything on memory or experience, usually not referring to any text or paper unless it involves natural history topics. It's been about 4 years since what I learned about the creation of digestive enzymes, and never once has the topic been used in any later biology or chemistry classes. Also, at least for the next 2 years, I doubt the topic will be covered again either. I'm more of an organismal-bio person than a micro-bio person.

This is an online discussion forum, so, when people are wrong they can be corrected. However, I don't know if I necessarily am wrong, just I'm not 100% on being right either.

The text that the class used was one of many Biology Textbooks published by McGraw-Hill.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 19th, 2015, 7:44 am 
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I think its a good to note that digestion, and the metabolic "blood work" of the hepatic system should be understood as different offices in the same building, so to speak.

Research Bile.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 19th, 2015, 8:18 pm 
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I made some mistakes in terminology, early in this thread, that I realized only when I began studying hepatic and renal functions more. Its a complex topic and there is alot more to learn.

My position on diet and health has creeped along on a growing hunch that has made me seek more information and be pro active with some methods of feeding with my own guys, kind of morphing into a blend of staying as close as possible biochemically to [what is known] a wild diet, and modifications with available foods and innovating appropriation of composites.

But there is alot more to learn and material to study.


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 Post subject: Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...
PostPosted: September 22nd, 2015, 9:34 am 
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Kent VanSooy wrote:
Everyone knows hand fat is not good for birds.


Kent became an online acquaintance because of this thread, and the quote above. I never got the opportunity to meet him, and so I do not have the honor of calling him a friend. But he was needlessly, uncommonly kind and we pmd occasionally about eggs, mice, and a few other cool topics.

I will always wish I could have met him and will always admire him.


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