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 Post subject: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 23rd, 2012, 5:13 am 
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Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone from the region has found a nightsnake species from the Cochise region similar to Dan Mulcahy's "Cochise" clade in Southeastern Arizona (2008). The dorsum is considerably more orange-tan or light copper than Jani, and is the only endemic species in the Cochise region. It is known as "the Hooded Nightsnake" by Tom Brennan on "The Reptiles of Arizona".

Cheers,

Justin


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 7:45 pm 

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I'll try to get some pics off a sd card an onto a pc. I caught a night snake near Paradise last year that was the biggest hypsi I've seen, and a neat orange-ish color to it. Very neat critter!
jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 9:49 am 
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Justin, not sure what you mean by the Cochise Region? I've seen some interesting night snakes in southeastern AZ, but they're all the same species, I think.

Terry


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 11:17 am 
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A special nightsnake found only in a few regions in Cochise, Santa Cruz, and Pima county AZ as well as Hidalgo County NM. I have a photo of what seems to be the species, but I cannot upload it due to copyright reasons because it's from another person. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 2:56 pm 
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Image

This one I found looks like a normal hypsiglena to me.

It was found a few miles from the Mex border and a few miles from the Cochise border..

Just thought I would put up an example of a night snake from that region.

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 6:09 pm 
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There's considerable variability of the species. If you mean there's a distinct taxon from the main species and subspecies in s. AZ, let us know that. I've seen some Hypsiglena that are prettier than others and will try to find a photo of one of my best.

Terry


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 6:24 pm 
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Here's the one I was thinking of, eating a DOR juve longnose....
Image


TC


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 9:06 pm 
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I remember reading a paper somewhere about the "new" species breakdown of Hypsiglena. I'll see if I can find it.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 5:55 am 
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Yeah, those photos match the species. They are much more tannish and orange.


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 7th, 2012, 8:57 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:37 pm
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This one was found in Santa Cruz County, a stone's throw from Cochise last year...

Image

Hypsiglena whatever chlorophaea


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 9th, 2012, 7:32 am 
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Good one Mike. IMHO, the species is variable, but not two different species.

TC 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 9th, 2012, 12:43 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Here's a link to Dan Mulcahy's paper:
http://www.naherpetology.org/pdf_files/940.pdf

Here's the abstract:
Quote:
The subspecies concept has received considerable debate throughout the past century. Subspecies were originally used to delineate
potential incipient species, but were later employed to simply capture geographical variation. There is a recent trend to eliminate the
trinomial in light of new evidence. Discrete, diagnosable lineages are elevated to specific status, while those that show clinal variation
and/or appear to represent ecological pattern classes are placed in synonymy with the parent species and the subspecific epithets are disregarded.
Here, I examine the species boundaries of night snakes (Hypsiglena torquata) using standard phylogeographic methods and
mtDNA data from 178 individuals. Previously, seventeen subspecies of H. torquata were described. In this study, I recognize six species
in what was previously considered H. torquata: one is novel, two were previously recognized subspecies, while the remaining three are
wide-spread, polymorphic lineages, composed of multiple subspecies. I make the case to maintain the subspecific lineages in these wideranging
species because they are geographically cohesive, morphologically discrete, and may represent incipient species within each complex,
which have not yet achieved speciation. These subspecies are maintained, not only pending future investigations, but because they
provide a useful identity for the taxonomy of this diverse lineage.


And here's a relevant snip of the text:
Quote:
The Cochise Clade represents a distinct lineage separated
by more than 6% uncorrected sequence divergence
from other lineages (Table 4), which is morphologically
discrete, and geographically cohesive. Specimens in this
clade can be recognized by the presence of a complete
nuchal collar, which is rounded posteriorly and narrows
on the dorsum, and forms a dark line extending anteriorly.
The eye stripe is prominent and tapers to a point where it
meets the nuchal collar. The body contains two rows of
small dorsal spots, unlike one large row in most other
forms (except loreala). Previous morphological analyses
failed to detect this distinct taxon, most likely because of
the few available specimens from this region (Tanner,
1944; Dixon and Dean, 1986). As mentioned above, a
few specimens collected at the contact zone with the jani
Clade appear to represent hybrid individuals because they
were found to have the mtDNA haplotype of one species
and the morphology of the other. The Cochise Clade
may also come into contact with the Desert Clade southeast
of Tucson, AZ, between populations 52 and 101 (Figs.
1 and 2). I wait for the examination of additional specimens
for a proper diagnosis and description of this species.


cheers,
Jimi


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 9th, 2012, 4:08 pm 
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Jimi

Thats the paper I was searching for.... Thanks for posting the link.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 9th, 2012, 6:42 pm 
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Thanks for the link, Jimi. It's an interesting paper, although I think it's difficult to read and get my head around, because of all the scientific lingo and hard to understand concepts. I've so far been somewhat hesitant to accept proposals based on mtDNA also.

The author is proposing to make the "Cochise Clade" into a separate species based on his research and the morphology of this form. He also is recognizing six species in what was previously, Hypsyglena torquata. However, he hasn't named the new species, "Cochise Clade," yet, because it hasn't been fully described.

What I know is that the night snake occurs from the Santa Cruz River floodplain, in my area, all the way up to the higher elevations in the surrounding mountain ranges. I've also seen them in my yard, about a mile from the floodplain, in the desert. It seems to me that there is quite a bit of variation in its morphology, but I'm going to look at specimens much more closely in the future. I'll try to analyze some of the variation, however, this snake isn't found very often in Pima County.

I suggest we all photograph any specimens found from different angles and that we pool our information. Maybe we can help define a new species, who knows?

Thanks....Terry :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 10th, 2012, 12:19 pm 
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It is best if we should photograph all Hypsiglena in that region, as well as coachwhips, and other colubrids. However only to photograph.

Justin


Last edited by intermedius on April 11th, 2012, 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 10th, 2012, 3:18 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Quote:
It is best if we should photograph all Hypsiglena in that region, as well as coachwhips, and other colubrids.


That would be great.
* Perhaps even better would be to also (not instead - also) get tissue samples from live, un-sacrificed specimens - blood smears, tail tips, ventral scale clips - just something easy, reasonable, and adequate for DNA extraction.
* And it would also be great - as a matter of course - to scoop up all DORs and get them to museums promptly (taking tissue samples from those too).

Working for the sometimes-difficult sector that dispenses such things I understand some of the hassles doing all this legally, but...if someone earnestly believes there's a scientific story to be told somewhere, they can jump the hoops and get the local scientific collection permits. From some outfits anyway...

Also, finding a tissue-specimen repository can be a challenge. Work with your curators to at least make sure the specimens are cross-referenced with the whole-body specimens they were taken from.

I see NAFHA having or developing a role in this logical extension of citizen science. Public money is tight and not getting any looser soon - finding cheaper ways of gathering biological information is a community imperative.

Cheers,
Jimi


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 10th, 2012, 4:58 pm 
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I would not advise much of this complex stuff, just photo vouchers. If Dan Mulcahy does describe this species, it should be his discovery and not ours. Sorry to burst the bubble, but it would be the best and most humble. Either that or get permission to do such.

Justin


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 11th, 2012, 11:45 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Looks like we're totally talking past each other. Bubble, humble, permission? I'm not getting it.

Additional material for molecular work would facilitate systematic revisions and confirmations, of hypsis and otherwise. Is that in question? If so explain. I said get the material to a museum. That way, whoever wants to work with it, has access to it.

The point for me is to reduce the amount of daylight between the real world and our understanding of it. As a generality, I really don't go much for "perpetual intellectual property rights" when it comes to wildlife. Shit or get off the pot. I'm happy to give academics a few years to assemble their piece and run it through the paper mill, but there are examples of people sitting on "their data" for truly unconscionable durations. People are perfectly free to take an intense interest in a specific taxonomic group (after all, that's what stimulates hard work being accomplished), but that doesn't mean anyone else should forever respect a rank circle that's been pissed around that taxonomic group.

In the event this is misunderstood as a particularity directed at Dan - that would be a complete misunderstanding. I totally respect his contribution, and indeed with my suggestion have offered a concrete way for us all to help him accelerate to its completion. Or was that point missed?

Finally, whither NAFHA? Or should it wither?

I repeat - I see NAFHA having or developing a role in such a logical extension of citizen science. If individual members desire no deeper participation than photography, good for them. If others would like to step up their contribution to our understanding, and thereby our capacity for informed management, of wildlife then the parent organization could help. It probably won't help if there's no member interest. I'm happy to have a broader discussion to gauge member interest. And to facilitate assembly & distribution of tissue sampling kits, organize meetings and social events involving curators and citizen-scientists, organize field trips to salvage DORs, help people pursue permits, etc.

Cheers,
Jimi


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 11th, 2012, 2:42 pm 
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What i am saying is that we should wait until Dan describes the new species before we make DNA samples of said species. The most we should do is collect and submit specimens to museums, so herpetologists can use that information instead of us. What are you saying about NAFHA?

Justin


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 11th, 2012, 3:33 pm 

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Re: any forthcoming published description - directly from Dan's paper:

Quote:
The Cochise Clade
may also come into contact with the Desert Clade southeast
of Tucson, AZ, between populations 52 and 101 (Figs.
1 and 2). I wait for the examination of additional specimens
for a proper diagnosis and description of this species.


He's saying additional specimens are needed. Pictures are nice, and can also be useful - if you take pictures showing the state of the diagnostic morphological characters. Bodies and tissue are also very, very useful. If you see a DOR scoop it up and take it to a museum along with coordinates. If you want to do more with live animals, get a permit or get under someone else's permit. IF a permit is even required - check your state regs.

Re: NAFHA - directly from the FAQ's:
Quote:
What is NAFHA?

NAFHA is the North American Field Herping Association. Our goal is to unite amateur/private herpetologists and professional herpetologists in the collection of data with the goal of conserving North American herpetofauna, with a greater goal of species management. A highlight of this group is to provide state and national game agencies and other researchers with sufficient data to assist in the development of more educated decisions on how to better manage reptile and amphibian populations.


I'm saying pictures and coordinates are very nice data. They are the desired form of data for entry in the HERP database, which is a sponsored project of NAFHA, not equivalent to NAFHA, as I understand their relationship. Are photos and coordinates sufficient data for blah blah blah improving management/conservation of herps? I think and say not. Other nice forms of data (that help edge us towards, but still don't get us all the way towards sufficiency) are DORs and little harmless pieces of live animals. In most places, and with most taxa, salvaging DORs is a simple and perfectly legal task, that can provide immensely useful data. Gathering harmless pieces of live animals is an admittedly more-complicated task that some folks here might be interested in accomplishing. It's up to them. I'm willing to help them pursue this task in my geographic jurisdiction, and elsewhere. Anyway, what I'm saying about NAFHA is, if this group is serious about trying to help supply sufficient data for improving herp management then it's probably going to be necessary to ease out of the now-comfortable zone of just taking pictures and getting coordinates, into the perhaps-not-yet-comfortable zone of salvaging DORs and getting to know museum curators.

Getting to know, and starting to work with, museum curators can do a couple things for individuals and this organization: 1) individuals can luck into opportunities (lab and field experiences, and perhaps jobs) they never would have previously; 2) people and groups can get to know and perhaps trust each other more, which is essential to constructive collaboration; 3) NAFHA can gain even more credibility as a serious stakeholder in herp conservation. Sometimes if you want a seat at the table you have to bring something to the meal.

So, how do you feel about "this complex stuff" now? For other people if not yourself? Have I satisfied your concerns and clarified any misunderstandings or points I screwed up making the first time? Not busting your chops, asking an earnest non-rhetorical question.

Cheers,
Jimi


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 11th, 2012, 5:37 pm 
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Jimi et al...

Instead of getting into a P match lets find out the following.

Instead of sending "specimens" to museums.... is Dan able to take them? If so, what are his requirements for said "specimens"? Or does he prefer we send them to another location other than a museum (university perhaps?)

Is anyone able to answer these questions.

Dave Weber


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 11th, 2012, 7:46 pm 
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I think taking specimens is a great idea, if they are DOR's and also not a protected species. If they are not DOR's, then we could get some type of DNA sample, like tail tip, scale clips, or shed skin, etc. I already do this with a couple species. We just need to know who we're keeping specimens for, or where we can send them. I leave that up to the better informed along those lines.

Thanks for your suggestions, Jimi. .. ;)

Terry


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 12th, 2012, 12:17 pm 

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Sorry for my lack of clarity, I have clouded distinctions between the OP topic (Cochise-clade Hypsiglena) and broader issues that I've introduced into this thread. (I'm also not interested in a mere pissing match - booooring.) But I won't back down from the challenge I threw out - if NAFHA wants to acquire the stature to improve and influence management of herps, we need to improve our utility and grow our profile. One way to do that is to become even more "sciencey". As I said previously, pictures are nice, as they may constitute proof of occurrence (if we are trusted enough to be believed). Pictures can also be useful (if we take adequate-quality pictures of the right parts...) in investigations wholly, or partly, utilizing morphology or phenotype, particularly those of a systematic nature like this night snake question.

However, photos alone are of no use in molecular work. Contemporary best practices in systematics integrate morphology and molecular biology. So - people working in systematics (and many other disciplines...) need bodies or pieces of them - even throw-away piece like shed hair or molted feathers can be good enough. Sometimes even turds have enough residual DNA (from sloughed intestinal cells) to identify the turd-maker down to species or even individual. Citizen science (what NAFHA is all about, right?) can help with gathering these items, just as it can help by gathering photos and coordinates.

How to get involved? You can either start with talking, and then begin collecting bodies and parts, or you can do it the other way around. It's a matter of personal choice and temperament. If you want to start with talking, you can go to likely principal investigators like Dan, you can go to museum curators at your herp repository museums (e.g., UAZ), or you can go to agency folks who manage or are interested in herps (e.g., Tom Jones at AzGFD, Larry Jones at USFS, etc). They can all give suggestions for how to get involved in a useful way.

If you want to start with gathering bodies and parts (assuming you know how to do so legally - if not I'd start with talking!), here's a blurb from the UAZ museum's website on the topic:
Quote:
Specimen Acquisitions and Donations

The University of Arizona Herpetology Collection grows and becomes a more useful research resource with the acquisition of specimens. These specimens are typically acquired through collecting efforts of the collection staff or students and researchers associated with the collection. Specimens are also gained through exchanges from other institutions, as well as gifts and donations. New acquisitions are welcome, given that they are legally possessed, and have complete and reliable collection information. Complete collection information includes at a minimum:

1) Collector(s) name (the collectors catalog number should be included if available)..

2) Date of collection (should be written out as 12 May 2002 or May 12, 2002 if possible. Use of slashes such as 5/12/2002, dashes as in 5-12-2002, or Roman numerals such as 12 V 2002 are to be avoided. Also the year should be written in full such as 1999 or 2002 rather than 99 or 02.

3) Collection locality which should include Country (if outside of the United States), State and County (if applicable), as well as a specific locality. This more precise locality may include mileages from landmarks, and / or geographic coordinates such as Range and Township, Latitude and Longitude, or Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM). The recent accessibility of relatively inexpensive Geographic Positioning System (GPS) receivers, has made acquiring these precise localities much quicker, easier, and with increased accuracy. Whenever possible, the elevation should be included with the locality.

Other useful information often included with specimens are time of collection, weather conditions, description of vegetation, description of physical area, major drainage, mountain range, valley name, collected live or dead, live on road (LOR), dead on road (DOR), and date of preservation. Field notes and collecting permits (originals or copies), associated with the donated specimens are also appreciated.


The only thing I'd add to that blurb is, check your map datum (WGS 84, NAD 83 or 27, etc) on your receiver, and include that with the coordinates and specimens (or photos) you submit.

One final point - "pickles" (preserved animals) have a finite shelf life. Most pickles are now getting pretty old - the heyday of sacrificial collection was a long time ago - upwards of 40 years ago. Even mundane stuff in good condition can make a very nice and very appreciated pickle. For example I'm even picking up all the DOR GB gophers I find - my local museum curator requested this. (I just keep a box of ziplocs and a pencil in the car, for cleanly bagging DORs and tossing in a note with requisite salvage details.) Another important point (last one for real this time, ha ha) - whole-body pickles are useful for all sorts of things - diet studies, reproductive studies, anatomical studies, distributional studies. Basically, let the curator decide what to do (pickle or toss) with all the stuff you bring him. Just bring it.

Hope this clarifies previous discussion, and stimulates some action. Road-cruising season is upon us. Let's make ourselves even more useful to the herps we all love :beer: .

Cheers,
Jimi


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 12th, 2012, 6:55 pm 
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Jimi

That helps!

Thanks,


Dave Weber


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 12th, 2012, 8:28 pm 
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I remember living in s.e. Ohio years ago, back around 1983-84. I visited the Ohio University in Athens and contacted a biology prof. there that was in charge of their herpetology collection. I was wondering if they had specimens of certain snake species. One that I had found, the rough green snake, hadn't been seen in Ohio in about 40 yrs. and he thought it was extinct. After that I found another species in several counties it hadn't been found in before and another guy found an entirely new species of amphibian not found in Ohio before. We got to work with some cool folks.

The folks at the University of Arizona and ASU are probably lots more advanced than what I'm used to, but we herpers often make some exciting finds. We have a knack for looking in places many others don't think of. Also, we're not tied down to a classroom, and sometimes not even to a job...heheh! Another thing is that many of us have collections. I contacted a prof. in Texas that was working with ratsnakes and had written a paper on their taxonomy. Since that's an area of interest of mine, I offered to collect sheds or other tissue samples from my captives to help with their work. I think this type of science from citizen scientists can be quite helpful, but I'm not sure how involved NAFHA wants to get. Most of the herpers involved with NAFHA are just field herpers who are trying to be helpful to the database. I'd be willing to do this type of thing with NAFHA or on my own.

I'll try to contact someone at U of A to find out what kinds of samples they'd like us to collect. I often go to the Tucson Herp Society meetings (I think there's one next Tuesday). They'll probably be able to help me make a contact.

Thanks again, Jimi. This is some great info whether NAFHA uses it or not.

Terry :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 12th, 2012, 8:54 pm 
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I will check my contact at ASU to see what I can find out...


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 13th, 2012, 11:43 am 
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To Jimi et. all,


Okay, thank you and everyone for clarifying the subject. I was confused but now that I understand more about the purpose of NAFHA I understand what you were trying to say and it makes sense. Thanks!

Justin :)


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 13th, 2012, 2:38 pm 
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I've always hated night snakes taxonomy.

As for NAFHA part, I feel there is great use for photo vouchers but that collection of specimens would be a useful addition with a list of places that would accept them. When people say 'can we trust where the info came from?' when we use photos for vouchers, my answer would be 'can you prove where the specimen came from?' any better?

I'm here to help herps and I want to do it the best I can. So, give me the tools and I'll get to work! (When I can)

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 14th, 2012, 7:41 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Quote:
When people say 'can we trust where the info came from?' when we use photos for vouchers, my answer would be 'can you prove where the specimen came from?' any better?


Exactly!!!

Of course we cannot. Indeed it is hard to "prove" anything to people who do not trust you. Developing, maintaining, nurturing trust are some of the most important things we can do. I think people are more likely to trust people they know a little bit, and have had no serious problems with, than they trust complete strangers or people who have screwed them over.

A problem for American herpers is, many managers (agency folks) and "academics" (profs, curators, and also to some extent zoo people) paint us with one brush - a dirty one. So we're starting from negative territory. We can develop more trust with people by approaching them and demonstrating our value - for example by bringing in DORs - and photos - with good field notes. I do not think it is quite enough to have the HERP database, and just wait for people to find it and hopefully use it. I think we would do better to actively make offerings to the places we want the data to end up anyway. To do otherwise might be akin to fumbling inside the 5-yard line. Doh!!!

Terry's points are important here - we find cool stuff. We see cool stuff. In a way we have it better than academics and managers because we're using our own money, and our own time. (You might think spending other people's money would be nice. Trust me, it's almost not even worth it. You have to do backflips to prove to Congress, grantors, etc you're not committing waste fraud and abuse. Again, it's that trust thing.) We also have the benefit of not getting too burnt out. In the 15 years I spent as a field biologist, I have to admit that towards the end of that time the thought of going outside and hiking around on weekends was the LAST thing that appealed to me! I was already hiking 35-50 miles a week, in some pretty "steep and deep" country. Give me the couch! I'm quite happy to have an office job now! Ha ha...but seriously, there's something special about retaining that freshness of excitement. People who have lost it, like to see it and be around it. So while we have some disadvantages, we do enjoy some advantages we can work with.

I guess in closing I'd say - just give it a shot if you have any interest. The guy who's doing the eagle monitoring right now - did you see his DOR glossy with the huge food bolus? - that would have been a great one to take to a museum. They'd eat that up. Ditto any DOR Cochise night snakes. And lots of other stuff...

Cheers,
Jimi


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 14th, 2012, 1:16 pm 
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Posts: 2207
Location: Southern Arizona
I'm always thinking about what NAFHA is and what it means to me. As I see it, NAFHA is always evolving, as is my involvement in it. As a field herper I just go out looking for herps, for the fun of it and for some other useful things, like collecting, contributing to science and conservation, and to socialize with like-minded friends. As a NAFHA member I see myself somewhat differently. I see myself as part of a team, as doing something useful with my finds, and as being more organized. NAFHA is a social organization also. I have met tons of field herpers since joining NAFHA about five yrs. ago and have learned much more than I could have on my own. I see herping differently too. Mainly there's the herps; and then there's the habitats the herps live in; and also there's the conditions that determine how the herps will behave. Everyone wants to protect the herps and their habitats, but we can't always have or do what we want. Who's going to stop the development of native habitat or mines from changing the landscape, for example. We're always developing new strategies for seeing and interacting with the herps we love. Many of us are searching for new habitats all the time, sometimes to replace old habitats that have been destroyed, sometimes just so we have a place to go that others don't know about. I think the habitat, or locale, if you will, is just as important as the herp. Scientists need to study the type of herp, but also needs to know how the herp functions in its habitat, and how that habitat affects the herp.

Soooo....I'll be looking for night snakes in southern AZ this summer, but I'll also be taking a hard look at their habitats. There's the question of why they would be different? I'll be collecting DOR's and preserving them, either in alcohol or in the freezer. We need to get very accurate data on where they were found too. Actually, NAFHA now requires coordinates for every entry to the database anyway. Hopefully, some of us will be able to locate researchers that can use the samples we collect. I've always wondered why researchers didn't put out requests for samples. They tend to rely on museum specimens, that can sometimes be really old, and not always representative of the "real" range of the herp. Anyway, I look forward to seeing how these ideas evolve. I'll be going to the THS meeting next Tuesday and will ask about contacts. Hopefully they can help.

Terry :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Cochise County Hypsiglena?
PostPosted: April 14th, 2012, 2:58 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
Posts: 2762
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Terry

I'm making contacts with some ASU people. Perhaps you can work on U of A people? Just a thought.

Dave


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