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 Post subject: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Species
PostPosted: January 6th, 2017, 7:27 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Wittmann,AZ
There is a group of folks in Arizona who are investigating the possibility of changing the AZ Game and Fish regulations to allow the captive breeding of native species for commercial purposes in AZ and outside of AZ.

Presently it is illegal to do this.

They need each state's Game and Fish regulations/laws pertaining to this exercise to assist them in drafting their proposal.

Also, if anyone has any links or pdf's of papers that prove or disprove that captive breeding benefits conservation please send them too.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: January 11th, 2017, 12:34 pm 
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Joined: October 12th, 2010, 10:05 am
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Location: Utah
Utah doesn't have any detailed information on breeding reptiles, they have more of a checklist that indicates possession, propagation and so forth:
https://wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks/amphibians_reptiles/


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: January 11th, 2017, 2:26 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Wittmann,AZ
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: January 13th, 2017, 4:47 pm 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
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Location: Greater Houston TX Area
I'm not the best guy to ask regarding breeding/commercialization of native species here in TX, because currently I don't do that. That being said, here are some of Texas' byzantine regulations and attempts at interpretation by TPWD officials who sometimes don't really understand what the statutes say (e.g. their FAQs can at times be misleading interpretations of the no-kidding Texas Parks and Wildlife Code).

Texas recently (well, past 10 years or so) divided up many species of herps and other animals into a "white list" and a "black list," with regulations regarding what you can do with "white list" species being more permissive than those for the "black list."

The somewhat confusing and contradictory "official" TPWD FAQ on white/black list species

White List Species

Black List Species


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: February 28th, 2017, 12:24 pm 
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Rick Staub should be consulted on this, for sure. I'll let him know about this post.

scott


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 5th, 2017, 10:28 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:21 am
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Location: Iowa
Iowa is tricky. Garter Snakes are the only thing you can do any breeding with without any issue at all. T&E species you can't possess (even purchased) without a permit, and breeding would have to be mentioned on your permit. Game and bait species (frogs and turtles), require special licenses to sell them commercially. All other herps are considered Protected Non-Game. You can possess them only if you have proof they were not collected in Iowa. I asked guys in the legal division a while back about breeding, and they said it would be a documentation nightmare. You would have to show proof that each of the babies was not collected from Iowa. People within the state that purchase animals from you would probably need to maintain not only a receipt from you, but also proof of captive birth since the snake was bred within the state. Our laws really need to be updated, and are open to quite a bit of speculation in places.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 5th, 2017, 10:58 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Interesting project Dave, I applaud and encourage you guys for taking it on.

A little added context on what Jeremy kindly linked you - the N, C, and P correspond to (as noted in the linked page) noncontrolled, controlled, and prohibited. Noncontrolled means you don't need to chase a permit from the agency to do this, controlled means you do have to chase a permit (called a Propagation Certificate Of Registration) to do this, and prohibited means you can't chase a permit because the agency cannot even give you permission (but you can still chase a variance from the Board, who can let you do whatever is not statutorily censured).

Here's a little unsolicited advice. The status quo (the agency position) usually exists for a reason (sometimes not necessarily a very good one, just "a one"). So you need to frame the stakeholder and the resource interests (not the positions - the interests) that are being served and those that are being neglected by the status quo, as well as those being served and neglected by the alternative(s) you're putting forth. If you can get the agency to do that also (agency and resource interests), you're in clover. "All you need to do" (ha ha...) is find the overlapping or aligned interests.

Step one, of course, is to come to terms internally. Bring a united front. I'm sure you know all this, but it might be reassuring to hear it from someone else.

Good luck, man.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 7th, 2017, 7:19 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Wittmann,AZ
Thanks for the help. There is a local group/ committee of smart people that are slowly banging this out before we even bring it to AZGF.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 5th, 2018, 6:17 am 
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Location: Illinois
I dicsussed the Illinois statutes at great length with the author who is a state herpetologist. It breaks down in Illinois pretty simply. You can own 8 total of native herps. 4 individuals of any one given species that are non threatened/endangered. Breeding can be done with a aquaculture permit, but selling natives is illegal. Then the breeding part is tricky because the limit of 8 is still in effect. So breeding would need to result in gifting the hatchlings. This is the gray area that they don't really discuss or cover. 8 individuals is the strict limit.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 5th, 2018, 9:44 pm 

Joined: July 2nd, 2010, 5:48 pm
Posts: 686
Location: AZ.
I concur with Jimi, and I also believe there is an overall reluctance to authorize commercialize wildlife by the private sector. Curiousy, the agencies often ignore the principles of wildlife management they apply to mammals etc., and impose awkward and restrictive standards to reptiles, often without data to justify it. However, a glaring exception is aquaculture, why are folks so often allowed to produce fish etc., yet denied the privilege of doing so with reptiles? Maybe that can be diplomatically pointed out, and a lawful venue tried. In California, commercial fisheries are often allowed on an "experimental" basis until hard data exist to justify or shut down the fishery. By examining aquaculture regulations, you might get some ideas on how best to write this proposal.

I have mixed feelings about the commercialization of wildlife, but I do not like the inconsistency and arbitrary nature of many of the laws and restrictions that exist, often based on lack of data or personal biases.

I might take an interest in this issue if anyone on the committee cares to PM me. I also think consulting Dr. Staub and other California herpetoculturalists is a good idea. I am not impressed with the Ca. model, but it is something to consider and some of those folks worked hard to overcome the agency reluctance to allow even limited captive breeding/sales permits. It seems to me both Nevada and Louisiana have far greater permissiveness regarding this topic than many other states.

Biker Dave, thank you for alerting us to this, I had not heard about it.

Vic


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 9th, 2018, 3:52 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Quote:
captive breeding of native species for commercial purposes in AZ and outside of AZ


Curious how this is going. But not curious enough to want anyone to take any risks with ongoing sensitive discussions. (Good luck.)

Couple thoughts here:
1) Does "AZ" - either the agency or any of its residents - think they're gonna regulate the activities of residents of other states, who are (legally, where they reside) breeding AZ-native stuff they legally acquired (either purchased, or harvested in AZ or somewhere else?) I sincerely hope not, because that's laughable.

2) One thing UT distinguishes in its current regs (which may be about to get torn up & tossed out) is captive-sourced vs locally wild-sourced or externally wild-sourced captive native herps. In many cases (I believe that it's species by species) if you can show you legally acquired a native animal a) out of state or b) in state but as a CBB, then you can breed it without needing to get a permit. Whereas you may need to get a Propagation COR to breed it, if you legally harvested that individual in-state. (The reason these regs may get thrown out is they're just - too - complicated...)

Quote:
there is an overall reluctance to authorize commercialization of wildlife by the private sector. Curiously, the agencies often ignore the principles of wildlife management they apply to mammals etc., and impose awkward and restrictive standards to reptiles, often without data to justify it. (...) I do not like the inconsistency and arbitrary nature of many of the laws and restrictions that exist, often based on lack of data or personal biases.


There are many, many, many examples of legal commercialization (to some degree...) of wildlife. Among them:
- aquaculture, aviculture, herpetoculture, etc - whether the end use is live or dead
- classifying elk, bison, etc as "livestock" and having their farming be regulated by the state Ag Dept
- commercial-harvest hunting and fishing
- recreational trapping (pelts get sold)
- guided hunting and fishing and wildlife watching
- canned or high-fence "hunts"
- tag transfers, wherein the agency gives or sells tags to private interests for resale (always at a higher price)
- your local "bird-seed and binoculars" store
- real estate values skyrocketing for "hunting land" (that isn't worth diddly for farming, grazing, drilling, paving, etc - i.e., is otherwise worthless)
- sales of UTVs, bass boats etc...
- Cabelas, Bass Pro Shops, etc - all the crap I mean gear they sell
- really, if you want to be honest, the whole revenue model of state wildlife management in the USA...

So, "traditional" wildlife managers picking on herpers really gets my goat, if you couldn't tell. "Sport" herpers or "field" herpers dumping on commercial use of wild herps isn't far behind that, for me however.

Quote:
I have mixed feelings about the commercialization of wildlife


Oh, me too, me too. It's an absolute tar pit of interests and emotions and ethics. OTOH my feelings about 1) different standards for different groups of people and 2) arbitrary and/or opaque governance are pretty consistent. So...I think the best anyone can do is to squash their misgivings and - as long as it's demographically and genetically sustainable for any exploited wild populations - let people do what they want. Bottom line, if wildlife have no value, then they will not be valued, and we will have none. If live wildlife are worth more than dead wildlife, we will have live wildlife. If dead wildlife have value that many people have a managed chance of realizing, we will have live wildlife. My $.02 anyway.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 9th, 2018, 8:34 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Wittmann,AZ
Legally speaking, regarding AZ native wildlife, it is illegal to "take" with the intent to captive breed for "sale, barter, or trade." This even applies to animals that are removed from AZ and re-homed in another state.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 10th, 2018, 10:56 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Posts: 532
Location: Southern Cal.
Can I throw some more vagueness into the mess.

I purchase a fishing license to fish the waters and ocean in California. Each day I have a renewed specific bag limit that I can take that day. That fishing license applies to reptiles and amphibians (herps) as well. I have been told that for herps that it is an annual bag limit. I have looked but never found that stated in the regulations. I just did a review myself and found the term "daily bag limit" used throughout the reptile/amphibian text (in California).


I also purchase a AZ out of state hunting license when I travel there to photograph herps. Does the bag limit renew daily like fur bearers (which I never take).


https://map.dfg.ca.gov/sportfishingregs/

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Conservatio ... s-Reptiles

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Licensing/R ... ropagation


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 11th, 2018, 10:38 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1697
Quote:
Legally speaking, regarding AZ native wildlife, it is illegal to "take" with the intent to captive breed for "sale, barter, or trade." This even applies to animals that are removed from AZ and re-homed in another state.


Hmm. "Sounds desirable to a biologist, looks unenforceable to a cop?" Ha ha. Looks like one they ought to just scrap. It's ridiculous. It makes them look ridiculous. Consider a guy who legally (without prior intent) harvests a couple of AZ WC Cal kings and "just keeps them" for a couple years then decides to pair them up. He gets some babies and trades them for...whatever. Consider another guy who - with a license - harvests a couple Cal kings with intent to breed them. Naturally, it takes a a year or two for the WC's to acclimate and put on some weight, and maybe get old enough. But he too gets some babies and trades them for...whatever. Now how the hell is a cop gonna be able to tell the difference between these two guys? What judge is gonna entertain a notion to smack the second guy, but not the first? There are surely more unenforceable regs out there. But not many.

Craig - it's not you. The generic terms are "bag limit" and "possession limit". Bag limits are daily, generically speaking. Possession limit is usually some multiple of bag limits - often say three to five. So in fishing, say, you can get your bag limits each day Friday, Saturday, and Sunday (and not violate your possession limit), have a fish fry Sunday afternoon, then go out next weekend and do it again. "Bag is what you've got on your person, possession is what's at your house or camp, plus what you've got on your person." A hunting example from Utah, where I live, is snow geese: bag limit 20, possession limit 60. (Yeah, there's way too many of them!)

Often (and regrettably!) the herp managers in a state agency have no experience managing any fishing or hunting, and sometimes no education in it either (having degrees in something like Biology or Environmental Science, not in Fisheries or Wildlife Management - there is a big difference). So they don't apply the management principles (compensatory mortality, numerical response, "you get your data from the harvest, dummy", etc) very well if at all, nor the terminology (e.g., often equating or conflating "bag" with "possession"). This is where hands-off regs for common stuff comes from. Obviously, it bugs me...

Quote:
I have been told that for herps that it is an annual bag limit. I have looked but never found that stated in the regulations.

It is entirely possible, but I would demand to see it in writing, because if it hasn't gone through due process and been adopted by the Wildlife Board or Commission, then it isn't real. If it has been adopted, it is written down somewhere. Like, in the state Administrative Law https://oal.ca.gov/.

It's entirely possible that "the teller" didn't know what they were talking about, and were either a) rather unwittingly making up the definition they preferred or b) just repeating something they'd heard, with the same sort of ultimate origin. Again, I would dig into it, unless the published bag limits are equal to the published possession limits, in which case it's just a distinction in search of a difference...

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 11th, 2018, 4:35 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Posts: 532
Location: Southern Cal.
Thanks for the insight Jimi.....
I think you are correct, about bag limit and possession. But for several years I kept my "limit" to 6 Ca. rosys. I have two sons that I fish with, so that made me legal. They both had fishing licenses and I actually tagged the cages as to which ones belonged to each of us. Then they moved away to college. Eventually, I purchased my Native Propagation Permit. So, I can keep, breed, and sell the offspring legally. I can also keep at home as many as I want.

It does mean paying an additional $62.83 annually and keeping good records. I was keeping the records anyway, and the additional cost is not outrageous (to me).

So I pay $53.74 for my fishing license, and $62. 83 for my permit annually. And believe me whenever I see a warden either on the ocean or in the mountains, I stop them and show them my paperwork. And, I can only have my daily bag limit in my possession at that time.

But, I followed up with this information just to help anyone that had any questions about how this worked.
Craig


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 12th, 2018, 3:35 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1697
Likewise, thanks for the discussion and the opportunity to learn some stuff. I looked at CA's propagation permits (non-comm & commercial). Seems like a bit of work, and still (to me) too complicated and restrictive (e.g. the zonata stuff - jeez-oh), but at least there's a fairly clear path to be able to do what you reasonably want to, and meanwhile stay legal. And yeah, at about a buck a week - the extra cost is fine.

So Craig have you ever talked with anyone about how these regs came to be? My only real interactions with CA commercial snake breeders was in the mid 80s, not so long after the major legal changes happened and people were still, uh, resenting. Big time. Anyway, I'm curious exactly what F&G conservation interests are being served, or not, by these regulatory positions. I wonder if the door might open to some further simplification and reduction in those regs you guys gotta live with. Not just the breeding, but the (low) possession limits etc. Two banded geckos? Two sidewinders? A day maybe, but...total possession? Seems goofy-low to me. I dunno, maybe it's having 40 million people, but still...hardly any of them herp. And it's still a big desert, without a whole lotta cruisable roads.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 12th, 2018, 5:27 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Posts: 532
Location: Southern Cal.
Well, I am an old guy. I herped with Kent VanSooy and his father in the very early 70s. I met Kent in elementary school and we fished together at the local lake.

Prior to 1975-76 there were virtually no regs on herps in Ca. We caught local kings (what are now called Long Beach greasers) as well as anything else reptilian and sold them to local pet shops that offered them for sale. There were also merchants (poachers) that would buy and sell out of state, anything protected ( and I do mean anything). Then came the huge raids. and the change in the laws, with the strict limits.

The strictest limits I believe were imposed as a reaction to the evidence gathered during the raids. L. zonata was a favorite due to demand at the time. When the raids produced large numbers of seemingly unknown or rare (to the biologists) herps, they were targeted as threatened. These are the same limits in place now, and the need for the fishing license. This kept officer Chang of Ca. D.F.G. busy at Whitewater Rd. for awhile, and showed results by the citations for not having a fishing license. Then everyone had fishing licenses, which pretty much meant that there were still lots of herpers but that their power to control them had disappeared. At this time wardens were out in the field in search of crimes that were non existent for the most part. This lost them revenue in fines and the big media raids were scarce.

More recently as a response to there still being lots field collectors and not enough revenue, a cost effective solution was sought. Hence the propagation permit. Ca. D.F.G. could still keep an eye on herpers through the permit and it didn't actually cost them much. To my knowledge there have been more than 1200 propagation permits sold. Which equals more than $75,000 in revenue every year for the state.

Historically speaking bag limits will seldom if ever be increased. My fishing license and propagation permit will never go down in price, only up.

But yes.... The number of cruise able roads, and herping spots in the 70's was amazing. There were dozens within 20-30 minutes of Long Beach.

Now, they are covered with housing tracts, malls, and business complexes. Some of the best spots are still there and we guard those locations like a pirate guards his treasure. But, we soon find out they sometimes get raided also.

I will also respond to pm's. This is actually a very brief and incomplete response.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 17th, 2018, 4:40 pm 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
Posts: 2407
Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Jimi wrote:
I wonder if the door might open to some further simplification and reduction in those regs you guys gotta live with. Not just the breeding, but the (low) possession limits etc. Two banded geckos? Two sidewinders? A day maybe, but...total possession? Seems goofy-low to me.


And isn't the total possession limit for some species/subspecies (zonata subspecies comes to mind) ONE? Seems like they'd want to encourage hobbyists to be able to breed them and make more for other interested hobbyists, rather than take more from the wild.

Many herp-related regs from several states seem to be crafted along the lines of, "well, it's hard for LE to tell what species are what, and we can't tell wild-caught from captive-bred, so basically we'll ban EVERYTHING and you're guilty until proven innocent." :?


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 Post subject: Re: Need Your State's Regulations for Breeding Native Specie
PostPosted: April 17th, 2018, 8:14 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Posts: 532
Location: Southern Cal.
Chris, I have to agree with the BAN everything statement.
Being in California, for my own peace of mind I have never kept L.z. pulchra or L.z. parvaruba. I have photographed them and left them though.
But I have kept and bred L. p. pyromelana, and currently keep and breed L. z. agalma, obviously (I hope) neither native to California. They were also purchased from captive breeders.


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